 This is Exploring Chiropractic a journey through all of the chiropractic schools throughout the world. I'm Nathan cashin Thanks for joining me on another episode tonight I am joined by two students at Northwestern University of Health Sciences out in Bloomington, Minnesota in the Midwest So I'm excited to welcome them first up is Andy cook. How you doing tonight doing well? How are you? I'm doing great. Thanks for joining me so late. It's it's about 10 o'clock for you guys Absolutely, still very exciting though and also joining us is Melissa McCrany Yep, it's I'm excited to be here. Good. Thanks guys for getting in touch with me or responding to my stalkerish Facebook message I'm excited to learn about Northwestern. I think it's again, it's one that I've Heard bits and pieces about but I'm not super familiar with a school though since I've been in school I'm learning more and more because Western states which is where I'm at Kind of is a partner school in some ways with Northwestern You guys are a bit more of a science-based school. I would say do you agree with that? Yes I would completely agree with that. Yeah, definitely. So if we were to put you on a spectrum of of traditional chiropractic philosophy to more of the metapractor or More progressive, where would you guys say you fit on that spectrum? The metapractor we're trying to be primary care physicians. Yeah, okay So you're just way on that end, you know And it's really funny though because a lot of a lot of surveys that have been taken over the years of put Northwestern somewhere near the middle maybe a little bit towards the metapractor side But it and I feel like as we've been there It's a lot more evidence informed then then I mean people always complain about it not having enough philosophy So and then we're just favorites are coming for a brilliant. I notice you just said evidence informed not evidence-based Yeah, that's the lingo that you guys are using now as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so are we I Kind of don't like it to be honest. I'm You know on my podcast when I'm interviewing other Schools, I like to keep it very As as unbiased as I can so you know I talked to Sherman I talked to like West and I just want to know what the school is like But I definitely more on the evidence-based side and I feel like evidence informed is like we know about the evidence But maybe we don't use it or I don't know. So how does it play into the curriculum at your school? I'd say heavily. I mean all of the all of the professors that teach things other than the chiropractic history will Present the evidence that supports the things that they're trying to say be at the textbooks or I mean if they're saying something about How chiropractic affects asthma say they're gonna also give a bunch of papers that say that they're not gonna talk about Any and that being the reason that it's helping basically so So Melissa art is innate and subluxation are these words thrown around a lot or are they kind of shunned? They pretty much aren't used at all The closest we got was briefly mentioned a subluxation is used more often in our Depending upon some of the old-school docs that have been there for 30 years teaching But they I honestly can't say that innate other than briefly in like a historical philosophy class has ever been used or referenced or Indicated within the clinical practice. Absolutely Andy how much history or philosophy classes do you have? Well, we've had Up to five, but I mean most of them have been ethics kind of and like we went over the 33 principles Oh, you did. Yeah, we went over the history. I honestly didn't pay a lot of attention in that Interesting note of that that was actually though when We took our principles in philosophy to class It was taught by Dr. Clausen Myers who was brand new to teaching this class from Palmer She's a radiologist. Oh cool. Okay, so she actually has no interest in philosophy But because she was from Palmer, they're like, oh, you're Palmer you can teach this So she the class since we have taken it has really changed into a more Yes, it has more purely Philosophy class and not chiropractic philosophy, which is really interesting. They're teaching students how to think critically That's actually it's just be dogmatically taught, but you have to memorize the principles. No, yeah They're like here. These are what they are. They're crazy. Enjoy. Yeah, I find it so interesting most students at my school that I know of are pretty much oblivious to the 33 principles and So it's interesting in me that I'm pretty sure at Sherman and at Life West probably life. They memorize them Yeah, and I I've tried to I am fairly familiar with them for having looked into it myself but I sat down with my girlfriend who is an MD fellow and Read through them and it was a really interesting experience. I'm hoping in some of my After-school specials on this podcast to do that with you know people in all health care fields with naturopaths Which with pts and just see what's the perspective like? What does it mean to them? So Andy, how did you how did you get to Northwestern? And why did you choose chiropractic? You mentioned you are in your email to me an older student with an established family, so Yeah, that I mean that's why I'm at Northwestern Like I feel like I was just really lucky that Northwestern is the school it is because I mean But it gets right down to it if there hadn't been a chiropractic school in Bloomington I probably wouldn't be going into chiropractic. I would do something else And most people are in the same boat. They just Yeah They choose chiropractic and then they find the school closest to them Yeah, and in your case that that worked out pretty well because it matched your perfectly, yeah, I Feel like that absolutely What led you to choose chiropractic? Did you have a career beforehand? Well, I mean I guess I was a courier for FedEx So I mean I know what you know repetitive hard work does to somebody So, I mean I know that chiropractic is effective for treating that sort of any sort of repetitive injuries I thought that I like health care I like using my hands and my head. So I mean all of these things led to I Mean it's a pretty lucky Pretty lucky jump to chiropractic as far as that goes, but I mean it worked out really well So did you have a workman comp injury or anything that led you to go to a chiropractor at first? It wasn't a workers comp injury. It was just back pain. I mean I went to a chiropractor I actually have been to I had been to one chiropractor once before I started chiropractic school That's more than a lot of people. I know yeah hands Oh really class who had never had an adjustment before. Oh, wow, and I Surprising to me. I mean that's great that they have you know the the certainty to pick a profession that they've never even experienced Right, some people do it and they're doing fine. They're doing really well in the program. Yep Melissa what brought you to Northwestern? Did you have a background in health sciences? I a little bit I got a bachelor's in chemistry with the plans of going to medical school with both my mother and my aunt being PTs and I wanted to go the MD route. I wanted to be a surgeon and I went and shadowed that career field and it fell to pieces After seeing how they handled patients. I'm like, I can't do that How they handle patients that you didn't like it was one incident where they had a patient that they gave Stage four grading of cancer and basically said we're you have two weeks to live and Then they went to the next room like there was that was it. I was just like you just crushed this patient how What do you do and they're like well we have more patients we just we have to go and I'm like, I can't I can't do that Wow, that must have been just heartbreaking for that patient they were devastated absolutely Interiors they came in in tears scared and There was no comfort there and I couldn't go into that kind of a sterile environment And did you choose Northwestern for the same reason as Andy are you did you grow up close? I did not I grew up in first, Florida then moved to northern Michigan in high school and Chose Northwestern purely on the science basis How much research into different schools did you do? I researched Probably 50% of the chiropractic colleges. I looked in the Palmer. I looked in the national I looked into life. I kind of stayed into the east coast Midwest schools just because they're closer to where my family is Okay, and this was the one that I liked the most because of the research facility that was right in our basement still is and Just some of the things that they were putting out. I liked it Yeah, so I think that's what I mentioned or what I meant when I said that Western states and Northwestern are kind of partner schools We've got Mitch Haas who's our head of research. You guys have I'm blanking on his name now. It's not Bronford. It's Not Haldeman Okay, I can't remember. I'm pretty sure I met him at a conference bit But we so we've got Papers chiropractic research papers that are published together at least by my people that work at our respective schools Right. Yeah, and definitely, you know have the science focus. So that's that's cool Now Melissa you mentioned to me that you're taking an elective that surprised me It's a new elective offered this term is an emergency medical technician So offered right on campus. So I'm training to be a licensed EMTB and plan on taking my state licensure for that in Mid-April early May and I'll be able to get a job as an EMT this summer to help support the the debt and start Working through my residency with that That is so cool. I have wanted I've had this idea of doing an EMT Before I went to school and now I'm planning on doing it afterwards. So you get to do it while you're in school How do you think how do you see EMT and chiropractic working together once you graduate in the clinic? I'm looking at joining. It's a Pediatric and sports based clinic Where the other doc is an athletic trainer and I would be able to go help them on the sidelines as an EMT But then also in small rural towns. It brings you in and you're able to network better into the town to bring in more patients because you can join and Be helpful than more than just a chiropractor That's awesome. That's what I have in mind as well as working in rural communities and And just kind of being that you know from from the acute care all the way to Rehab and wellness. It's kind of what I I'd like to do Andy are you doing any electives like that? Nothing nothing like that. I mean I took I We just have required electives that are basically technique electives or things like that. So that's essentially what I've done I Haven't done a lot of things like I'm a server. That's my job to support myself. So I mean I'm fine with that one for now Which techniques does Northwestern focus on? Diversified Okay, we've got a motion palpation in the Gonstad club and they're pretty pretty well established clubs that do a lot And there's an upper cervical elective But it's mostly diversified mostly diverse. Yeah, uh there I mean what made it diversified is the textbook that's used by most colleges is written by dr. Bergman Bergman, that's the one that's the one we use as well Go authored with Peterson yep, who isn't at my school. Oh, yeah Okay, so we have the Bergman half of the textbook, right, right? And I've got the Peterson and we are told for every adjusting class to go out and buy that book and The teachers ask how many of you own it and I'm one of maybe three that raise my I am the other one of the three in my class How heavily do your do your lectures your professors rely on textbooks versus their own printed notes or power points? Class dependent I would say mostly its notes There have been a physiology was heavily textbook But the upper level courses are mainly notes I would say What's Andy what's been one of the highlights of the program so far for you Honestly the internship like I'm having more fun now that I I mean like I really I took a lot out of the methods classes I really took a lot out of some of our more specialty PT classes and Neurodiagnosis classes, I really really enjoyed those and they kind of informed the way that I'm headed in practice But I really I mean there's nothing that beats the internships now So that's working in the campus clinic, you know, I'm actually I'm in a community based Internship so I'm out of the school now. I worked. I worked in the University clinic last trimester And I'll be out of the school for the rest of the for the rest of chiropractic school So, okay. Yeah, that's something to what I've heard from other schools He treat other students first. Yeah, make sure you're not gonna kill anybody right because they're just expendable And then you can do that Absolutely, and then people end up trusting us with the patients that are paying them. So, you know, right, right? That's that's another point. You gotta give them quality if they're paying Absolutely, I Want to know a little more about the campus. What's what's the first thing you see when you come to campus in the morning? An old middle school Is that what it is? Yes But it's an old middle school the old dean who has now gone back to teaching who is the president of Faculty Senate dr. DeVries Went to this school as an elementary school student Then it's a chiropractic student and now works there as a professor and did oh my gosh residency and radiology there Oh And then her parents old house is the alumni house currently. Wow Talk about connections that go way back, but that's a little bit awkward to be But that's interesting it's it's funny I was just talking to someone at Southern California There's is an old high school. Oh, yeah, Western States was an old Catholic girls school. I'm sure Logan's Library at least was an old Catholic monastery. It's kind of cool because they've got this beautiful stained glass in their library Oh, yeah But not uncommon for school to you know, repurpose buildings that are out there absolutely But how are the facilities? Are they really well kept? Yeah? Oh, yeah, I mean they've the auditorium is garbage It's really hard to sit in there for a really long time But but once you get out of there after your first year I'd say then you get into decent lecture halls and then the labs are all good. They're all new though So is the auditorium where you have your first classes? Yeah, that's it's I mean That's like 120 people in the auditorium and teacher in front of the podium It's kind of like a traditional lecture hall sort of setting But that's only for fall start classes the winter start terms are in the small lecture halls from the get go because they're Generally 40 to 50 students, right? That's true Sounds about similar. Yeah. Okay. So you can start in the fall with a large class Or you can start in the winter with a smaller group. Yeah, do you guys notice a difference between those cohorts? in in motivation in grades anything like that I Don't pay attention to other people's cohorts to be honest. So I don't know The I mean the way I see it it seems like they're tighter Maybe I see I see larger groups of them being closer together than maybe no that's much It depends upon the cohort. So currently on our student Senate. I'm the vice president court chiropractic So I'm I work within all the cohorts to make sure that they're getting their academics. They need they have the community connections between the administration and everything But the smaller start I feel like they Feel more pressure to stay on top of their academics because if they try to split a term because they're overwhelmed because of the credit load they have to wait until the next fall To catch up because there's there's that gap since we don't have a summer start So fall we can easily fall back and not have any real big detriments And we'd fall back one term versus them falling back two terms So I feel less of them split they push harder to stay on top of their academics Can students split split any trimester? Yes. Oh interesting, and you've done that. Is that is that what you said? Oh, you didn't know I started with the fall class And it stuck it out. It's a It's a choice because we take between 25 and 27 credits each term and That can be a bit overwhelming especially trimester two is a heavily split class because of you know You're taking histo. You're taking anatomy. You're taking physiology. You're taking biochemistry. You're taking a Bunch just 27 credits worth of chaos and some of the professors are very challenging and just to Survive sometimes you don't have a choice especially with families It's true a lot of the a lot of the students that have families ended up being splits Yeah, I ended up taking a split and I'm so glad I did Extra masters degree at sports medicine, which is the only reason I decided to but man I would have been miserable. I was miserable before I started that I can imagine so So I'm glad that I'm doing that Now Northwestern is a university like a lot of chiropractic colleges But it first and foremost is a chiropractic college. Is that right or did they grow into another university? we were first and foremost a chiropractic college and then in the late 90s they Began the College of Chinese acupuncture and herbal medicine and the massage therapy certificate And so they became a university But they they're trying to even out the playing field even though the majority of the student population is chiropractic So you can take acupuncture classes as a chiropractic student. No, where's that only no? There's a chiropractic elective There's a chiropractic acupuncture elective, but I don't think you can jump between Schools like that. Okay Yeah, I would say there's probably a lot of similarity from from what I've seen There's a decent amount of similarity between some of the classes that the chiropractic and Chinese medicine would would take as far as They might be a little bit pared down in that school versus chiropractic. I'm not certain on that but it's my assumption, I guess Okay, okay Do they have any other programs? They have an undergraduate program for basically finishing up prerequisites and stuff like that as well, right? So you don't have to have a bachelor's to start At the school correct It's it's like three and a half semesters of school or something like that is what it ended up being Okay, very cool. Are there any? Postgraduate or diplomat programs going on listen. Yeah, Melissa. Is it you that's interested in radiology? I am I Am so they have a sports fellow that they just started and With our new dean starting next week who is a radiologist. I'm hoping by November to have put in a proposal for a Radiology residency, but I'm currently actually applying to NYCC and Palmer Mm-hmm. You don't want to come out to Western States in Portland. Do our our radiology residency? so the I Honestly probably going to pick Palmer and it's a really shallow reason and that's because My soon-to-be husband can't move So he's gonna be staying here in Minnesota. Well, I go do a residency for three years. Wow, okay That'll be a challenging few years won't it We're used to it. Oh, yeah Yeah, well, I'm interested in radiology, but I've decided I I'm going to practice for five years Before I decided to go into it. Mm-hmm, but I like I know I think because everything's going digital. I love the idea of Being able to live up in the mountains and do consulting as a chiropractic radiologist. Oh, absolutely All right, well, let's see what else shall we chat about the school? What's what's the area around the school like are you in residential area? Are you right in the middle of the city? residential It's residential. It's in the suburbs. It's the suburb of Minneapolis, St. Paul. So it's it's first ring So the Twin Cities are like 15 minutes away. So you have downtown Minneapolis about 15 minutes away And there's I mean, that's a metropolitan city. So Okay, so you can easily enjoy the city life if you'd like and there's there's a lot of culture in Minneapolis, I mean, there's plenty to do right there. Andy. Do you have kids? I do. How is the city for them? Are there? I mean, there's no end of things to do for kids like we've never found there's I don't know probably half a dozen theaters that I can think of off the top of my head that you can take the kids to there's Two art museums you can take the kids to the science museum 20 minutes away in downtown St. Paul Like there's no end of stuff to do and the Mall of America is Yeah, that's right. I'd forgotten about that Thankfully, is that the largest in the US or is it no longer? It's not but once they complete the addition that they're currently adding it will be They're trying to one up each other again just filling up just like the towers Surprise that swells my heart every time All right guys, let me ask a few quick questions. We'll try to keep the answers as as quick as we can Let's see how prepared did you feel for boards? Prepared enough that I didn't study for two You didn't study at all not for two. No, and not really a lot for three I Feel fine with it. I could I need to pass. Take PT. That's fine. What's that? Did you take the physiotherapy boards? Yeah? Yeah, I just did that last week And I thought it was one of the easiest tests that I've taken. Yep. Absolutely. Yeah, I studied for a bit All right, let's see Oh Which is your favorite extracurricular club or it can be a technique club just which club Andy do you spend the most time in? I Spent the most time and motion palpation club. I feel like that really helped out my adjusting But I haven't I'm off campus now except for one day a week So I haven't done any clubs for I don't know. I'm excited there. They started a RTP club Oh, yeah, we got involved in that possibly as a doctor outside of school, but oh very cool We've got one of those possible. Yeah rehab's kind of the big thing lots of buzzwords going around. Yeah, that's probably the resident That's the diplomat that I will be going for after I'm done with chiropractic. So Okay, what is that called? Stay DACRB Right American chiropractic rehabilitation boards. I always get the confused with a DAC bar, which is the board That's the radiologist one. Yeah, so confusing Melissa, which is your favorite club? I don't know if it's a favorite, but it kind of has enveloped most of my time Which is the student Senate, but then I'm involved and through that everything So I'm almost at every club event still I'm at almost every meeting so and it's given me access to Things on campus to bring things on campus that not necessarily or prevent things from coming on campus that aren't necessarily needed Okay Do you guys have business classes? Mm-hmm. Yeah, how many classes do you have that are called business classes? Yeah, one per trimester. Wow really, yeah, but it's not in-depth what kind of stuff you cover It's about as in-depth as it can be because it's half a trimester every year every trimester It's about half of it the guy's really good business guy But he has his way and he really feels like most people should do his way and so again really go too far into other ways Yeah, brush over insurance stuff and brush over this and that but new cash practice our only class so far Has been billing and coding for insurance. That's the only thing we've done So better than better than even half a trimester is better than nothing. Absolutely All right, Melissa. What if what is one thing you would change about the school? I? Would change the business classes It's been a huge pet peeve of mine It's it's not a business class for me personally looking at it On a second one. I'd probably I like geriatrics, and I really hate our geriatrics class But that's just Schools good and trains us to be phenomenal doctors, and there's they're just little tiddly things that Okay, Andy's there one thing you would change. I would have loved to have a consistent Dean and president All of you just happened during it seems like a lot of the changes that are happening in the school Which are for the better? I might add are happening like the trimester after hours, so How many times have they changed? What if we had like three deans? Then we had okay, so we started off with dr. Debris, and then she stepped down to go back to the classroom then we had Dr. Stark who then switched to the human performance Institute Then we had interned Dean dr. Wiles who was doing both Provost and Dean Then we had dr. Elkington who is both doing chair of a chair of one of the educational departments and Interim Dean and we finally have dr. Fosheng who starts Wednesday next week and then When we came to school, we didn't currently have a president. They were in search They hired a president and they're He was in the seat for nine months and then There was a tragedy involved yeah, I've heard about that yeah That's pretty upsetting yeah got dr. Kassier last August and he's been in the position now for ten months ish. I don't know nine months He seems to have some good ideas he seems to be open-minded listening to people So I think I think it's a good thing for the school overall and I like that I would like to see the school succeed I would like to contribute to the school success in the future I think it's only gonna be a good thing so and is this so is this current one going to remain for a while Yeah, I think so this is the whole indefinite Okay, not not just everything. All right. All right guys. Well, this has been awesome learning about the school Let's wrap it up here, and I'd like to hear what you guys have to share for your Tick picks so this is just anything cool related to chiropractic or or You know anything at all as a student that you find helpful or cool that you'd like to share Andy why don't you start us off? I've really I've really been into the clinical compass I go there when I'm not paying attention to people in lecture And look at guidelines look at papers and just find any anything that suits my fans See pretty much. That's kind of like a recommendation for you know How long you should treat somebody or what you should use to treat somebody what you shouldn't use things like that Yeah, I haven't heard this and for anybody watching the YouTube video. I'm taking a look at the website now So guide me through this like what how would you use this in clinic? Well, you would probably I want to pull up the website to to actually be sure and I don't have it in front of me But I would just face it. I mean, it's like a search-based engine sort of thing and you just Find a condition and it has like a list of papers that come up that are relating to the condition and things like that Okay, they don't like GERD That's a frozen shoulder Yeah, that's probably more musculoskeletal. Okay. Well, let's just look at their clinical guidelines Okay, upper extremity, so it's a little more general than I thought thoracic spine conditions Fibromyalgia tendinopathy It's being built. I do know that for sure. So that's definitely not complete by any strip to the imagination All right, so this is a little more a little newer. Yeah, let's take a look here at neck pains It's just a PDF that you download and it's got Some guidelines here that you can follow and it looks like it's you know based on the research Lots of references in here, which I appreciate so cool, okay, I'm gonna have to check that out and And learn more. Do you guys now that you're in the clinic? Do you guys have clinical guidelines that your clinic has established? Well, my doctor has me do things his way which he is I mean he's an extremely evidence based doctor like he's Definitely a pro as far as that goes, but he wants me to treat his patients his way and I'm fine with that But yeah, I understand they're still giving him the money. So okay, and and you know, he treats them effectively So why not treat them his way? So I mean it's he's definitely a treat release kind of doctor. So it's you know six six visits for your average, you know Semi-acute musculoskeletal condition six visits reassess Very by the book hurry. Yeah, very very much. So okay Melissa. What's your tick pick? so mine is a little more academically for the boards This is Cairo resources. I found it before starting part one. I For the tech savvy, it's awesome because you can have it on your iPhone iPad literally, I'm an Apple user Macbook or a regular computer and it has information for all the parts part one two three four and PT I Found it. Oh, they changed the pricing on it. So it used to be a hundred and fifty nine dollars not a hundred and thirty nine So it's cheaper Unlimited access and you have that for your entire career as a student and I found that really fun What's nice is when you're going through different radiology courses if it's broken up into chest and abdomen tumors Arthropathy is you can set it up to quiz you for radiology Is this useful even if you're taken like I was just in my bone pathology course for radiology You can use it as a resource for that as well to kind of give you a breakdown I've just started going through the part four material and It has a really nice breakdown for how to read the x-rays how to look at them and judge whether it's a good quality film So I I'm appreciating it from that aspect and granted. I am a little slanted to the radiology But the information was really good. It has quizzes it has matching games which Sometimes just to learn things you need to just play and that's for me. I'm a kinetic learner versus just Reading iron gold or just reading the red books and memorizing. I need that I Don't know tactile Congratulations, you got this question right? Yeah, yeah, that sounds cool So are there are their native iPhone and iPad apps or is it you can just access via the web They're working on creating those apps as of right now. You just access it through the web Okay, very cool. That's good to know now that I've finished my boards. Well, I've got two in through coming up So I have to take a look into that Yeah, I find it's very challenging to You know to study for boards the best way that I've found is just Practice tests like having a book with questions and just going through them But but I'll have to take a look at this this sounds pretty cool All right, well my my tick-pick let me pull up here is the books and podcasts of Katie Bowman you can find her at Katie says and Katie is a biomechanist up in the Washington area and she's just big on posture. She doesn't like the word posture. She's all about alignment So one of her first books was alignment matters where she talks More rather than about posture and just static positions she likes to focus on the loads of The muscles on the joints So she looks at it more in a dynamic biomechanic way And she came here recently to do a book tour for her more recent book called move your DNA Her basic thesis I guess is kind of based on the analogy of of the orcas in captivity and how Their you know their dorsal fin will bend over one direction because they're just swimming around in circles Because they don't have those natural loads by swimming straight for miles and miles out in the ocean and She equates that to our lives in you know as students especially sitting throughout the day and Just hunched over our notebooks and or our iPads and iPhones really is what we're doing these days, right? So it just gives you a different perspective on how to move throughout the day and she doesn't like exercise She just likes movement. So you got to find ways to incorporate natural movement into your day to day Find it really interesting. So that's Katie says comm and you can get our books on a Amazon and all of that Sounds really interesting. Actually, I'll probably take a look for sure and she has a podcast which I think is called Katie says as well. Let me see if I can pull this up Yeah, Katie says with Katie Katie Bowman. That's K. E. T. Y Very very fun. She She's not shy about just Speaking her mind and so two recent podcasts were titled the boob show and then the balls show He's talking about those natural loads on our anatomy and if we're walking around wearing Tight briefs. You were not getting the natural loads and that potentially can lead to problems So, yeah, she was She's careful of not making outlandish claims She's very well referenced as well and based in the evidence so Check it out All right, guys. Well, hey, thanks for joining me late at night after a late night of classes I appreciate you coming on exploring chiropractic and sharing about Northwestern any final words to share any Do you guys big on social media you guys want people to follow you? No, I do want to say that to anybody who is you know, just Considering chiropractic school or as new in chiropractic school or anything like that that you should probably find a mentor as An established doctor as a mentor as soon as you possibly can I know that people probably always tell you to go in shadow and I didn't very often But I have found a good mentor Thankfully and I don't know I think that's gonna be invaluable at this point So it's really just an important thing to do. I think in the profession is find somebody who is willing to support and give back to the profession All right. Thanks, Andy. No, I said any any words of wisdom Kind of tag off Andes, but be cautious when finding a mentor if Why are you to pay for it? Because that leads you down a path of being obligated and key-hold into something that you don't even know so be cautious of your mentor choices Just from watching some students get into something as first trimester students and then now as T8s They're realizing they wanted nothing to do with it in the first place and they spent thousands of dollars So they feel like they have to be All right, good things to keep in mind Well, thanks again joining me on exploring chiropractic if you are watching the YouTube video All of these episodes are also available in podcasts for him You can download the audio via iTunes or any other Podcast app that you might have and take it with you on the go You can follow us on Twitter at exploring chiro or look for us on Facebook exploring chiropractic and check out Exploring chiropractic comm where you can use the contact form and get in touch with me if you'd like to share about your school and Give me your feedback. Let me know what else we can talk about What else will be helpful for those of you thinking of chiropractic school? So thanks again Andy and Melissa for joining me on exploring chiropractic. We'll talk to you later. Thank you