 You're listening to Mind Pump, the world's number one ranked fitness health and entertainment podcast. Now, in this episode, we talk about how to be a great dad, how to be a great father. Now, Justin, Adam, and myself, we're all dads. We find a lot of value in fatherhood. It's the most important thing that we think we do in the world. And it's a topic we like to talk about a lot off the air. Now, normally we're a fitness podcast, but we think this is also very important for a lot of the guys out there. Now, a lot of the stuff we talk about in this episode we think is valuable for everybody to hear. These are just good things to do to be a great leader and a great human being. And so we go through about 12 points that studies show are important points of being a great father. And then we speak a lot through personal experience. Now, this episode is brought to you by our sponsor, Chili. Now, Chili makes some of the best, some incredible products to help you sleep. 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Dude, I'll tell you what, you know, here I am waiting for Jessica to have this baby. I know, right? And you know, nothing that I've ever experienced in my life challenges me more to be a better person than being a dad. It's like the knowing that I'm going to be a father again to a, to another child. You self examining and thinking, okay, what can I do to be a better person? Cause I want to be a great example. And it just, it's crazy how much it challenges you to be a better person. You know, it's like an immediate mere reflection of what, how you are, how you operate, how you do everything. It's all just like right there to look at. Totally. So I have a little bit of different perspective on this, right? So when we were organizing this, this episode, and we're putting together the points, you know, because I don't want to alienate our audience that is not a father. And when I looked at like all the characteristics that we went through and said that were really important, I think these are extremely important characteristics of being just a good human being period. And I think they, I think they bleed into other aspects of life and success. If you have figured these things out, I bet you have a much better marriage. I think you have a much better work home life. I think you probably have better interaction with your coworkers, like better leadership, better leader mentoring, right? There's, there's the, the, the characteristics that I think it takes to be a good father really play into other aspects of life. I think that what is unique about being a dad is that if you didn't work on those things before and you become a dad, you don't have a choice anymore. And you now have to figure this all out. And you either piece it together as, as the days go on of being a father, or you've practiced a lot of these things. And now you've, you have to put them into play because you have a child now. Yep. Yep. Nothing will slap you in the face like that, right? Okay. I got to deal with this thing that I do all the time because now I have this human that I'm responsible for. You don't get a break. Yeah. Now, I mean, now, to be fair, the ones that we did pick were ones that we thought would be unique, somewhat unique to men, or should I say, based off of studies, our own experiences, and also unique in terms of the kinds of challenges that fathers, I think, tend to be presented with, which sometimes are different than challenges that moms are presented with. Now, one thing is for sure, and this is kind of crazy, is that we are in a fatherless epidemic in this country. We really are. Right now, more than one out of every four children is growing up without a, without a father, without that male role model. Now, in 1960, do you know what that number was? 8%. So it went from 8% to over 25%. And, you know, 92% of marriage stay together back then? That's a good question. Not sure. I mean, it sounds like that would be it, right? Holy smokes. It wasn't really that high. You got a fact check that I didn't know it was that high. I knew we've dramatically, I mean, it's gone, it's got crazy, right? It's gotten to the point where, you know, you almost celebrate, you know, the Peter Pan syndrome and people be having independence and it's become normal to have a home where your parents are divorced. But I didn't know that it was that drastic. So here's the thing. I don't know if they count divorce as being growing up without a father or having a father that's not present because I'm divorced, right? But I'm very present in my children's lives. So I wouldn't be counted as a statistic or at least my children wouldn't be one of those children that are in the statistic of growing up without a father because I'm extremely involved in their lives. So it might be one of those statistics. I think they're counting not divorce because I'm pretty sure the divorce rate is higher than 25%. I think it's literally children to have no father present at all, whether parents are together or not. Just abandonment. They're just gone. And this, you know, and these are the numbers. Statistics show that this is actually a terrible thing. Here's a few statistics. 90% of homeless people grew up without a father. 71% of high school dropouts, 63% of youth suicides. Children that grew up without dads or without a male role model are four times higher risk of being in poverty, seven times higher risk of teen pregnancy, twice as likely to suffer from obesity. And of course, the statistics for going to prison, becoming a drug addict, having behavioral issues, all much higher when there isn't a father present. So this is a very important role. And you know, Adam, back to your point about, you know, Peter Pan syndrome and all that stuff. Well, first off, Peter Pan syndrome is a loose term that refers to men who just don't want to grow up, right? They think it's better and more fulfilling to not have children, to not have responsibilities, you know, work, make money, spend it, drive fast cars, date lots of women, have a lot of fun. And it's glorified in media. In fact, fatherhood used to be very much something that you had, you were proud of. And these days, media seems to joke around about it, like, oh, your dad, now you wear- Life is over. Yeah, you have a driving, you know, lawnmower, a sit down lawnmower, you drink beer, you watch TV. You watch the paint peel. And life sucks. You're unhappy. You've been neutered, you know what I mean, before you were this line and now you're this neutered person. It was never like that before. Being a father was always a source of pride. So it's very interesting. And so to me, it makes sense that we're going in this direction. Part of the reason I think for this is that men don't have a biological, like, responsibility check, right? So it's like you're driving your car and the check light comes on, the light comes on to check the engine. For women, that is, I need to have a baby by this point. Otherwise, it's not going to be very likely for me to have a kid. For men, you know, we could have children well into old age, so we kind of have this loose time frame. And so we're not really reminded. So, yeah, you know, I'll just keep going. When I decide later, I want to get married and have kids that could totally do that. And also, you know, because of media, it's so much more fun to not have responsibility. And it's so much greater. And I save more money and all this other stuff. So it's no, to me, it's not a surprise that we're heading in this direction. Well, you're the biggest historian out of all of us. What do you think changed in history that shifted us from this 98% percent? I mean, that's just crazy to me. Yeah, there's a few things that they'll point to. One of them was the separation of, like the effective separation of sex from procreation. So we had condoms for a long time, but birth control really challenged that. All of a sudden, the risk of having a child from having sex went way, way down. And so now it became like, and it was a sexual revolution, right? Before, I think, and this is, this is not my words. These are just when you go and research this, these are what cultural historians will say that in the past, women were a little bit more afraid of having sex with a man because, well, the risk is high. If I get pregnant and he leaves me, it's going to be pretty bad or whatever. But you know, birth control allowed some more of that freedom and unintended consequence. And I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I think that was a good, I think the invention of birth control was great. But the unintended consequence was, you know, now there's more loose sex and it's separated from having children. I think media played a role. We started glamorizing people like Hugh Hefner and celebrities that, you know, seem to have all this fun on the outside. And so, and look, being a dad is a lot of responsibility, no doubt. If you are going to have way more responsibility as a father than not being a father. And responsibility, I think in the, you know, this kind of selfish culture, consumerism type culture, responsibility seems like a bad thing, right? Having responsibility is bad, less responsibility is better. But if you look at the statistics or you actually look at the data, responsibility is a great thing. When you have responsibility and you tend to it responsibly, you have more meaning and purpose in your life. Not having any responsibility can actually lead to feeling nihilistic, feeling like there's no purpose, you know, it's like living in your mom's basement and being a kid and not really having responsibility. That's not fun. You know, do you think a percentage that though is because we do now have so much, you know, information out there that, I mean, very few kids today are unaware of the divorce rate? Very cute. Very few kids today are unaware of the risk of pregnancy. Like I think there's so much information out there today that you know that if you have sex without birth control or condom, if you get married early at a young age, the divorce rate is much higher. Like, so do you think that a part of that is not all pointing towards the direction of like the Peter Pan type syndrome and just maybe actually a smarter decision by some young men that are going, hey, I'm only 22, maybe I'm in love with this girl right now, but you know, that's still pretty young and I'll probably be different when I'm 30 and the divorce rates really high if I get married this young. Yeah, I'll say no because that would point to having less children. So that would that would be statistically showing that we're having less children, which we are, but that doesn't point to the fact that men are still having babies with women. They're just not there. So it's not like they're saying, I don't want to have kids. It's like they're saying, Oh no, I'm having a kid. I don't want any of that responsibility. I don't want to deal with any of that. I'm out of here. That's the that's the big issue that I think we're dealing with. And, and you know, I'd like to just kind of communicate number one to men that, you know, for me at least and for the men in my life, the greatest expression of being a good man is being a good father that I've ever experienced. It's for me as well. It makes me I'm way better of a person because I'm a father and because that that responsibility of being a good person. It's also extremely fulfilling to be to be a father and to be a great father. And so, and I know we have a lot of listeners, a lot of male listeners who are dads or are thinking about dads. So I think it would be, you know, we'd be good to talk about some of the stuff that we've found is, you know, our dads are with ourselves or things that we have looked up that seem to be, you know, good factors or important factors to being a great father. Now, the first one that we listed, this one, I think it's not necessarily 100% unique to men, but societally speaking, men have this pressure. If you're a dad that you're like your number one most important responsibility is to provide money to be the paycheck. And I think sometimes men forget that they should also be present. You know, it's like they work and then the that's what they do and they come home and they're not really present. But hey, I'm a good dad because I, you know, I support the family. Yeah. And I think that, I mean, this is one of those, one of those, I think a lot of working people like they feel this because there's always this need to this drive to be able to kind of provide this nest egg to be able to provide, you know, your family's future. And a lot of times we get tunnel vision. And I know of me specifically talking to my own, once we were pregnant and that was a reality, it was almost this immediate, like access, like exponential amount of energy towards work and diving in and really wanting to, you know, pursue ways to provide for the family and get the, and I don't know if that's biological or if that's just something that people share, just knowing that it's such a, it's such a responsibility now that, you know, whoever's whoever's going to go out in the workforce, either mom or dad is really going to be the one that's going to determine the success of the family and the safety of it. Well, I think that's half of what makes this so challenging is that I do think that's biological. I do think that in a good, in a good father, a good man, I think it becomes, it feels very natural that you have a child and instantly you want to provide and or potentially provide more than what you already were. And so then you put your head down and that, that provider side of you comes out, like I felt that right away. And so, and I, most men I've talked to, most good fathers I've talked to, felt the same thing. So I think that's part of why it makes it being present so hard because you, you right away take this responsibility as, okay, I've got to start to really provide. Like if I wasn't saving before being responsible with my money, or if I was passing up on those overtime hours before, not none of that anymore. Now I'm taking all the overtime hours, now I'm saving all my money. Now I'm thinking about my child and my wife. So I think that's part of what makes it really difficult because you justify all the hours that you bury yourself into work, understandably, right? That I also think what, what makes that even more difficult is the time that we live in. Because now we live in this time where both men and women, everybody is distracted. We have these, you know, super computers in our pocket now that provide not only, you know, the ability for you to connect via email and business and contacting call and text, but also be distracted and entertained. Totally. And so I think you already won. You have the first challenge, which is I feel drawn to just working more than I ever worked before to provide for my family. And then when I finally do come home and I want to decompress and relax, the next thing I do is I pick my phone up and I want to be consumed by this, this supercomputer in my pocket versus now it's time for me to interact with my child. So this is too pronged right now. And I do think that it's more difficult today than it's ever been because of that. Yes. Being present doesn't just mean you're physically there. You know what I mean? Like the image of the dad that's, you know, on the couch watching TV, or maybe today on his phone while his kid is, you know, he's watching his kid, you know, quote, but he's on his phone while his kid is doing stuff. Like that's, you know, that's better than not being there at all, but it's not really being totally present. And it is challenging. This was a really hard one for me when I first became a dad to my older kids. I, as soon as I knew I was having a child, I was already a work fanatic. Soon as I knew I was having a kid, it was like, now I'm going to turn it up even more. And the side effect of that was I wasn't present because all I did was work. That's what I thought all my value was. And I worked every day and I busted my ass. And, you know, when I thought, well, I'm doing a good thing, which that part wasn't bad. It was the fact that I wasn't being present. And by the way, being present, there's a lot of guilt sometimes around this because I know this happened to me. As a dad, sometimes I think being present means I have to enjoy being present all the time. Like, I'm with my three year old and they're playing with their blocks. And I'm like, why do I not want to be on the floor playing blocks with them? And, you know, is there something wrong with me? Well, no, that's normal. You know, playing blocks is not necessarily a fun thing, especially after work. So sometimes it's work for you to be like, I'm tired, tired from work, maybe stressed out about something or whatever. I don't really feel like laying on the floor and, you know, doing this with my kid, but I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it anyway. So being present is also, it's also work. It's not easy. Yeah. And I mean, it's again, this all falls into to your relationship with your partner as well. Like if you're coming in and, you know, you're so tunnel vision and you're focused on just work and getting further and further ahead. So that way, you know, you can relax. Like, that mentality, I carried that all the way through like my first kid. And it was, it was stressful, not only just on my own self to try and, you know, also be able to shut that off and be home and be present and be there and play and have all these like meaningful interactions with my kid. But also, you know, I wasn't recognizing the need for help that was right in front of me, which was something that put a strain on the relationship that we had to address. Well, I found, or I'm having, right? So I'm still early in this, right? I'm only a year and a half into this game. The success that I think that I'm having as a dad is similar to the success that I had in fitness, like the same type of practices, right? Creating good habits and setting rules and boundaries for yourself to make sure that discipline. That's right. Make sure you execute on these things that you, that you claim to be important, right? If I claim that my health is important and I want to be healthy and fit, then I got to have certain boundaries and rules and things that and goals and discipline that I apply to myself in order to follow through on what I say or what I believe. Well, the same thing goes for being a dad. So, you know, and to give you two examples to being present that is extremely important that I have set as boundaries or rules for myself is, you know, sometimes I have a lot of work to do. And if that's the case, then I stay here. I stay here at the studio and I work longer on my phone and I do whatever I need to do. And then the moment I walk in the door, the very first thing I do every single time I go wash my hands at the downstairs bathroom, I walk upstairs and I immediately go right to my son. That is like, I've never missed a moment or a day in a year and a half of that's what my routine looks like. And from that moment on, I don't have my phone on me. I don't ever let him see me looking at my phone or doing anything like that. And if there's an absolute emergency or one of you guys called and it's business related, I would take that outside or take it to another room so he doesn't see me doing it. And then the other one is reading to him, right? So, I want that to be a part of our family culture that we read that we all read. It's something that I wish I did more of as a young kid. And I think leading by example is the first step in that. So, you know, a year and a half has gone by now. And not a single day has been missed that we don't read after bath time every single time. So, now, of course, there's other things that go to the park with him, I play ball, I do all these other things too. But I have these things that are habits now, that those things have, I don't break those habits. And they're part of me being present with him. And because Katrina's a part of that, she knows that's part of the routine, I know that's part of the routine, that's part of the habit. And it's all centered around me wanting to be a present father. And at first, maybe it was a little different because that was a new normal for me. I didn't have that two years ago. And so this is a new normal for me. It was a little rocky to kind of get into the routine and be disciplined about putting the phone away and then always make sure that's how I come into the house and then reading every single night the same fucking books over and over. Yeah, speak to the challenge of that, Adam, because I think some guys are listening and they're like, man, it sounds so easy for them just to do that. That's so hard for me to do. I mean, what about the challenges of putting your phone down? It's got to be a tough thing. You've got to recognize your own habits first. Yeah. And I would be lying if I said I never had moments where I hicked up on it, just like diet. And those are the things that I think the first step in all of this is to set the rules, the boundaries and the goals for yourself that you have to do that first. And then be as consistent as you possibly can. And then there's going to be moments where you have hiccups or you're not perfect and becoming aware of those, right? Becoming aware of when that happens and seeing the difference. Man, it's very obvious to me. There's been times both Katrina and I and we're in on this together. So if one of us pulled our phone out and it's in front of him, dude, you can see the behavior changing him. You can see that he's instantly fighting for your attention and he'll do things. He'll do things to get your attention because he sees you. He doesn't have your attention. And because we are, that was important to us, we are so aware of it. We pick up on that and we look at each other like, Oh my God, like you just can't do that. Versus if you never made that important, you never made that a goal. You never cared about that. You never really paid attention to that. You weren't aware of it. Maybe you don't even notice those behaviors. Maybe you don't even notice your kid is trying to tell you because he can't communicate at that age. So he does it in other ways. The way he acts out, the way he does things, so as far as the way he behaves or the actions he's doing, that may be his way of communicating, but because you're not present and you haven't made that important, it goes right over your head and you don't even realize it. Thinking back to my father, my dad worked a lot. I mean, again, he had no education. He was a poor immigrant and he worked very, very hard to provide his four kids with a middle class life. And in order to do that, he had to work oftentimes seven days a week. So he worked in construction. He was up at four a.m. or four thirty a.m. and he would be home by around three or four p.m. And again, most weeks it was six or seven days a week. However, there wasn't a dinner that my dad ever missed. Every single night we all had dinner together. And I remember my dad always being present for that. In fact, having dinner without my dad would have been very strange. I can't even remember a time when that happened, except for maybe when he was in Italy visiting family. So it was one example of how he was able to be, you know, present with us. And for me, this is a very, this can be a very challenging one because my tendency is to relax, distract or work. Yeah. The irony is like the more disciplined you are going in, the more freedom you like provide for you to be able to really like enjoy those moments more, which it sound that that was a hard reality for me to face was I couldn't just, I couldn't just react. I had to really, you know, set boundaries for myself and create, you know, the environment where everybody was being accounted for. And, you know, the sooner I addressed that, the better everything got. Yeah. Now, the next one, this one's really important to me in particular, because I think my father really did a good job of this, which is, you know, show your children how to treat other people in particular, show them how to treat women. And the way that they learn this is by the way you treat their mother. So if you have sons, they're going to believe the way that you treat their mom is the way that is normal and the way that women should be treated. And your daughters, you're going to set the example for them and what they're how they're going to allow other men to treat them. I mean, this is a big one. Like if you are disrespectful to their mom and you yell and you display aggression, which I know some men will do when they get angry or they'll hit the wall or, you know, whatever, that your daughters watching this and growing up with this, this is what they may tolerate from other men. And if you want men to treat your daughters that when you want your daughters to be okay with that, then keep going. Otherwise, show them this is how you treat women, not simply by treating their mother with respect. How you treat older people is another one or how you treat homeless or disenfranchised people. This is a big one. My father was always kind to people who needed help. You know, I'll never forget driving on a long family trip. I was like a four-hour drive, raining and pouring in a car in front of us, a few cars up, kind of, you know, skidded out from the rain, went to the side. And my dad pulled over and went over to check and see if they were okay. And if he could help them out in the pouring rain and in the real late at night on the way home. And, you know, there was many, many examples of seeing my dad do that. You know, we would be eating at a restaurant. And I remember one time we were eating at a restaurant and we were like in the middle of the restaurant and all the way by the front door, there was somebody in a wheelchair trying to open the door by themselves. And my dad looked and saw nobody was helping and sprinted over to open the door. And I remember him coming back and he said nothing of it. And to me as a kid, I remember thinking, just because I saw my dad do this, I remember thinking, why didn't anybody else do that? You know? And what a phenomenal example that he was in terms of how to treat people. So I try to do this as well. You know, I'm not perfect at all. But, you know, if someone cuts me off or something happens, I try to be aware of how I talk about that person or how I treat that person. Because that's the example, right? That I'm saying. So this one is close to home for me because this was really, this is really difficult for me. I'm terrible with showing affection. So this was one of those things that because I was aware of that. One, I've been working on that since day one in Katrina and I's relationship. We've been together for 10 years. Thank God she's patient and she doesn't need a lot of this. But I'm still terrible at it. I'm terrible at expressing my love, at telling her how I feel, telling her how beautiful she is. You know, coming up to her and grabbing her and hugging her and kissing her and making her feel beautiful. Like this is an area that I'm not good at. And it's taken a lot of work. And thank God I've been putting a lot of work in for the last nine years to be prepared for when I'd have a son because and now and just like the work thing, it's now accelerated or exaggerated the importance of this. Now I'm like, okay, now I have a son who I want him to see how to treat a woman. And so it's very important to me that he sees me do that with his mother. And so, and it's been really cool. This is actually one of my favorite moments and things that we've had with him. And it happened, I don't know, maybe six months ago was like the first time. So like one of our favorite times is bath time, reading time. And then after that, he is the most fun at that time. Like he's the last hour before he goes to bed, he's playful and he laughs and we just kind of let him roll around and kind of let him wind down and get the last bit of energy. And one of the things that we started doing, and I started it like six months ago in this exact thought and just like came in my brain, what we're talking about right now. And I thought, wow, you know, my son's really young, but he hasn't seen me show any real affection to his mother in front of him. So I grabbed Katrina and I kissed him and or kissed her in front of him. And he just laughed and thought it was the funniest. Isn't that wonderful? Oh, it was just I bet that melted the oh, it gets me emotional just thinking about that moment that feeling and now has become also very traditional for us that, you know, we been part of that time where we're playing together and we're doing things and we're reading and we're like at one point in the night, always lean over to her or she'll say, oh, mommy's gonna kiss daddy. Daddy's gonna kiss that, you know, mommy and I lean over and I kiss in front of him and he just thinks it's the he throws his face in between the two of us and he laughs and he tries and now he tries to push our heads together. So, you know, this was but this was something again that I know that I'm not good at. I'm not good at doing that even when he's not around. Now, is this because when you were a kid, you didn't see a lot of this yourself? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So in my, you know, obviously my story, right, my father commits suicide by the time I'm seven and then my mom remarries into a very abusive type relationship and I have a very distorted view of like showing affection. So the MO of my mom and my stepfather who married afterwards that had married into the abusive relationship, it was a pattern of six months on six months off. So I saw them, they were affectionate, but then I also saw them like hitting each other and screaming and yelling and all the crazy stuff months later. And so I become very numb to that. Like that means nothing to me. Got it. People kissing and showing affection and love. I began to become numb to like, that's not, if this is love, I don't want anything to do with it because three months later, now they're throwing frying pans at each other or chasing each other with knives and shit. So I would see that and you know, you do that to a child, the child sees that as a pattern month over month over month for years, like I did. Eventually what ends up happening is the kid goes, I don't feel that anymore. I don't see that anymore. And so that, and so then that bled into adulthood for me and then relationships was one of those areas in relationships I had to work on wasn't that I don't have love for her. I don't think she's beautiful. I don't want to show affection. It's that it means less to me because of that, but that doesn't mean it doesn't mean less to her and it doesn't mean that it's not important role to him. And so now as a dad, even though it's not a natural reaction, let me do that. See, some fathers listening right now might go, I'm totally affectioned. That's normal for me. I kiss my wife all the time. Like, Sal, you're a very affectionate person. You probably do this a lot with Jessica. Probably not a big deal for you, but I know there's got to be other men that are out there that are similar to me where that it's like it's, it's fucking work to do that. I have to actively think about I need to do these these things because it's important one for her and it's also now very important for him. Yeah, yeah, definitely. I also think to, well, thinking back about how I was raised, a big thing that my dad showed me was, you know, obviously how to treat women, how to respect women, how to communicate in a way where you could get into heated conversation, but it wasn't the volume never was, you know, higher. There was no yelling. There was no smashing. There was a very cordial way of handling difficult situations. And then if it got more intense, they would leave the room and they would do the rest of it outside. Or we never saw them really like going back and forth with any kind of venom. That was something that they never shared in front of us. And I know I'm sure it happened, you know, behind the scenes, but I just feel like that was something I wanted to carry into my own family, because little ears, little eyes are always there. And, you know, and they pick up on all that kind of stuff. And, you know, if you, for me, it's always been really important that we were a united front in that. And then we're always, we're always making sure they know if we are in a discussion, it's a discussion. And we're, mommy and daddy aren't mad at each other. We're just, we're really trying to get to a goal together as a team. And so anyway, you know, on top of that, like chivalry was a big thing. Like chivalry for me is, I'm old school. I'm very old school with it. I still open doors. I still, you know, go out of my way, you know, to help people. I mean, not just women, but primarily like, you know, that's something I'm always conscious of. I'm always conscious of just being available and trying to help my fellow human beings, you know, especially women. You know, it's, you know, it's funny about this is, well, first of all, when they talk about toxic masculinity and men who act terrible towards people or towards women, these are oftentimes men who grew up without a good example. In fact, if you're, you know, if you're a boy and you grow up without a father, a good male role model, you and you see masculinity on media, you end up thinking masculinity means being tough, being aggressive, you know, being loud. And so then you, and you know, being sexually aggressive, and then you think this is what it's like. And that's not at all what it's supposed to be like. And if you don't see that from a good male role model, you could have this totally distorted image of what it's like. And being chivalrous doesn't mean that you think, here's a funny thing too, is I have this conversation with Jessica. Jessica is very open-minded, very progressive, also very intelligent, logical. And we have these conversations. And it's not about showing that women are weaker, like, oh, I need to open the door because they're weaker and I'm stronger. It's not that at all. It's that there's a real reality in the world, which is if you're a woman and you're walking around by yourself and you see a group of men or a man, there's always a little bit more of a fear. Men are just, we're just bigger, stronger. We tend to be more aggressive. And so all you're doing is making, is showing that you are a look, I'm a good guy. I'm going to open the door. I'm kind. Showing kindness is very important, especially when you're the biggest, strongest, loudest person in the room because you have a low voice and all that stuff. So when you show those things, what you're really showing to your children, in my opinion, is kindness. Being, how to be soft, how to be gentle, doesn't mean you're weak. It just means you're being a good person. And I know this is another point that's coming up. But one of the things too is just like, we tend to be a little more brutish and rough with each other and our interactions physically with me and my sons because I have two sons and it's just one of those things. We pick things up hard. We hug hard. We smash hard, all that kind of stuff. And it's with how they interact with Courtney as well. I'm making sure that they're soft or they're gentle or they don't come in with that same kind of energy. It's different. It's a reality. We have a different biological makeup that we present to each other and it's a little more rough. And I'm trying to kind of make sure that they're conscious of that to tone it down a bit. Well, I think the points that you guys are making right now really falls under the next one, which is to be the example. Totally. I mean, what you guys are sharing with me, it reminds me of all the things that you do right now to be the example to your kids. So the things that you want them to exude or behaviors you want them to pick up from you starts with you. You got to do those things first. And you guys nailed already. I think the things I think are really important as far as behaviors. But this even, I think, is things that you hope your kids are into, like the reading thing I talked about. I know that what I don't want to be as a parent who waits till my kid is 12 or 13 and then I realize like, Oh, I want him to read more because he needs to in school. And then I started telling you need to read every night for a half hour hour. So I'm trying to be have some foresight on that knowing that's going to come in the future. And so if I instill these behaviors right now, and he see I'm reading to him, and then eventually, obviously, you know, the Elmo books will get old, right? The Elmo books, the books that he'll he'll eventually get into his interest. And my goal is to not stop reading. It's maybe I'll stop reading to him. But now he begins reading. I'm reading mom's reading. And that's our still our time reading is just one of the most fundamental things you can, you know, you can pass on to your kids. It's going to set them up for success in so many different directions. So to be able to really highlight that and make sure you're involved with it yourself and being an example that's important. Yeah, don't do the whole do as I say don't do as I do thing. You know, it's like that. It's like the dad that, you know, tells his kids don't smoke cigarettes and he's smoking cigarettes or, you know, don't drive fast, but, you know, he drives fast. Your kids learn way more from how you act and they do from your words. And I can definitely be guilty of this where, you know, just because you're being lazy, and you know what they call rule from the couch where you tell them what to do. But then kind of what you're doing is not the same. And, you know, luckily, my partner is very, you know, she's very eager to point that out. And but it's true, you know, I'll stop and be like, I mean, you're right, I'm definitely not being the example right now at what my words don't match my actions. I think what falls under this category too is like, even the way you communicate in your household, right? So, I Katrina and I have, we've created a very calming, calming type of environment in our house. Like we, we never even before max, we never yell at each other and argue and fight like that. So he's never heard swearing. He's never heard, you know, someone yelling or raising their voice. Katrina has been very cognizant of any time we've had somebody over if they're like, talking about drama in their life. And they have a lot of like bad negative energy, she literally will take max up and upstairs or outside and out of the room. So he's not around that. And I'm already starting to see the effects of that. And it's not so much a positive effect right now. But we can tell that we've actually put this work in to do this. Because when he shows up, we go somewhere where there's, it's crazy, like her family's a little loud and crazy. And there's 20, 30 people in the house and like people he doesn't recognize and people screaming, yelling, cussing everything. He gets really like close to us because it's, it's unfamiliar territory. And so it's something that's important to us that he sees a normal environment, our environment as this very calming, loving, good communication. There's no screaming and yelling. So we think about that stuff. So you know, if you want them to be like that also, I think it starts with you and in the way you communicate to your partner. I'll never forget I had a client once who brought her kid into for me to train. So I trained her. And then she wanted me to train her 11 year old son. Now she was dealing with issues with obesity. And so was the kid. So she brings him in for the first workout. And she literally looks at me in front of her son. And she goes, Sal, can you tell him why he shouldn't be eating potato chips and chicken nuggets, you know, every single day. And I looked back at her and I said, well, he doesn't go to the grocery store and buy them. In other words, there if you have to be the example, you can't have your child exercise and be healthy. For example, if you're not doing those things yourself. And this makes it harder. This is one of the reasons why being a parent is so difficult being a father so difficult, because you have to do this stuff yourself. You know, if you want your kid to be a certain way, you got to be that way too, which means you got to do it's not just about telling them it's about doing the work yourself. I think that's the that's really kind of the crux of what it means to be an example is just kind of think of the person you want your kid to become when they grow up. If you love your kids, you want them to be a good person to be disciplined to be healthy. Well, that's what you got to be too in order for them to be that way when they grow up. Yeah, I'm bringing it back to nutrition and exercising and all that too. There's moments where you're just tired and you want to come home and relax. And but there's that little voice, you know, in your own head where it's like, you know, the kids really need to get out. We need to get out. We need to get everybody out and exercise and be in the sun and do this. And sometimes I'll listen to it. And, you know, sometimes I won't, but the majority now I'm trying to make sure I respond and listen to, you know, what's going to be the best for the entire environment for the family right now and not necessarily like what sounds awesome right now to just sit down and plop my feet up. Totally. Now the next one, this one's relatively unique to fathers when they do, they do studies on, they've done studies on this. We had a very interesting author on the show, a doctor, what was it? Warren Farrell. Warren Farrell, thank you. And he spoke about the importance of fathers rough housing with your children. Now this is relatively unique to fathers because dads tend to be the ones that do most of the rough housing with their kids. It's a stereotype, but it's also generally true. But he said there's tremendous value in rough housing for two clear reasons. I thought this was very fascinating. You can look up the research it's pretty, pretty clear. It teaches your kids how to be gentle to other people. And you think, how does rough housing teach kids to do that? And he says, well, when you're rough housing with your kids, if they poke you in the eye or hit you a little too hard or bite you or whatever, you stop and say, Hey, hold on. That's a little too hard. Go a little easier. Otherwise, we're not going to keep having fun or if they do that to their sibling, hold on. You need to stop. We're not going to keep playing if you kick your sister that way, because that hurts. It's okay to wrestle, but don't do that. Otherwise, we can't continue. So they learn how to be gentle, how to hold back with that kind of stuff. And then here's the other one. This one I thought was very, this is actually quite logical, but very important. If you have daughters, it teaches your daughters to be comfortable with male physical contact that is not inappropriate. So now you can wrestle with them, you're touching them, you're holding them down. It's all totally appropriate. So they know what physical contact feels like that is appropriate. And that's a very important thing to teach your daughters. Man, this, that interview was so impactful for me. I mean, I was already having those interactions with my kids and wrestling. And, you know, we have a lot of fun with that because it's just, it's just a way to expend energy and spend quality time, you know, with my kids and they really enjoy it. And I really enjoyed it with my father as well. And it really does, just highlighting that, that important fact that for them to understand how to use their body, like where, where those thresholds lie in terms of like, am I hurting my brother and my, you know, like I'm showing them how to, you know, like act like we're wrestling and we're doing rough things. When in fact I'm very mindful of, of, you know, they're them not getting injured, them not getting hurt. And we're making sure that we're all still having fun and enjoying this interaction. And this kind of prepares them to with how they're going to interact with their friends, what they're going to interact with their significant other down the road, like all these types of things. I think the physicalness is something that never gets talked about enough. So this is a fun one for me right now because he's one and a half. Yeah, yeah. This is really when I think this, like between ages one and one and a half, I think this is when this really starts to kick up, right, or start for most, for most fathers. And absolutely one of my favorite times right now. But it's cool because the things you guys are touching on right now are already lessons that are being taught, right? So like just the other night, we were wrestling him for the first time, he like, he bit, he bit me, you know, like, that's why, that's why I said that or bite because that just happened to me, right? So we were wrestling around and he sunk his teeth into my form a little bit and instantly like, hey, hey, hey, hey, you don't do that, you don't bite dad, right? And because he doesn't get that, hey, hey, very often, it definitely stops him in his tracks. And you can see he's at that age where he stops and he's trying to process what just happened. What did I do? Yeah, what did I do? That's not okay. And the other one that's happening right now with that interaction is because the time that we do this, again, is after we read when we're laying on the bed, Katrina and I both are with him. He loves to let he'll, he'll wrestle with me like crazy and then he'll go over to mom. And right now we're trying to teach him how he's allowed to rough with me and he's gentle with mom. So he comes and he'll wrestle with me and I let him be a little more physical and I'm throwing him around and I'm holding him tight and making him trying to fight out of me and stuff. And then he'll go over to mom and if he tries to headbutt or be really aggressive, she'll kind of stop him like, no, no, no, you're, you go easy with mom, you go easy with mom, you can be that way with dad, you know, then she'll pass him back. And so this is a fun thing that we're going through right now. But I mean, you can see when you're, when you're doing it with intent, right? When there's intent behind, like, it's not like we just do it because I'm having fun wrestling with my kid. I'm sure there's a lot of fathers that just have fun wrestling their kids when you're doing it with the intention. And you're, so you're more aware of them. You can see, you can see them trying to process, you could see him, his brain working already and trying to figure out what I can and can't do, what's appropriate, what's not appropriate. And it's really interesting to watch that unfold. Well, and too, I mean, what I've recognized is, especially with their friends, interactions, the ones that haven't got a lot of that experience tend to be the more sensitive ones that like, you know, misinterpret that energy that they're just trying to have fun and be playful, where they're more, they get really reserved and they get really timid. And honestly, I worry about that because like, I see a lot of that now with, you know, with, with boy interaction. If they're not getting that it turns into this like everything is attacking me. Oh, wow. Interesting. And so I haven't seen that. I bet that's so true though. Yeah, it's like you'll see kids wrestle and then the kid whose dad or whatever doesn't roughhouse with them. You know, like they even though nothing really happened to the teacher to the principal. Yeah, because they just don't know how to interpret it. Oh, that's interesting. Now, the next one, this one's interesting to me. And now it's logical when you think about it. But I remember reading this, you know, back when I went through, I got divorced from my, my, my kid's mom, I would, I was reading about, you know, divorce and the potential challenges it puts on children. And of course, I planned on being extremely present with my children and not, you know, being very, very involved in their lives, even after divorce. But I remember reading this article that was written by this female divorce lawyer who represented a lot of men. And she wrote about how oftentimes men would get screwed in court. This is actually quite true. A lot of guys who want to be involved, who want to, you know, after divorce, who really want to be there with their kids. If the mom and dad don't get along and they fight over things like custody, oftentimes the mom will win over the father. And one thing that this divorce lawyer wrote was that some of the questions that they asked the kids or asked the parents weren't necessarily fair. For example, they would ask the mom things like, what's the name of the dentist and what time was it, you know, when was their last appointment at the doctor and that kind of stuff. And then they would ask those questions of the dad. And dads oftentimes didn't remember or know those things. So she said the questions asked the dads are things like, what's your child's biggest fear? And when was the last time they were scared? And boy, that hit me, you know, when I read that, because, you know, if I was really scared or there was a noise in the house, nothing made me feel safe like my dad, you know, my dad coming out of his room and his underwear, because that's how he slept and he's going downstairs to check the noise. And I'm like, well, dad's going down there. And it's all good. And this is my kids too, you know, my daughter, if she's afraid of anything, you know, if I go into her room and give her a little comfort, and then I say the following, you know, nothing will ever hurt you because I'm here, like I'll stop anything that ever comes in your room. Don't worry. She smiles and I can instantly see that she feels safe and secure. And I think just as being a man, you're typically bigger, stronger, a little bit louder, your children already perceive you as being the physical force in the house. Of course, this isn't always across the board. There's definitely women that are, you know, maybe represent that at home. But I'm speaking generally, you provide that kind of that sense of security and safety to your children where if they feel scared or afraid, dad is here. Dad is here. You can be afraid. That's okay. But I'm here to make sure that you stay safe and nothing will hurt you. I think this is a very important role that this is a big one too, because there's, there's moments where it's silly things like silly things are afraid of or like they can't sleep because whatever. And I've really had to check myself a few times not to just be like, oh, that's nothing. That's nothing. You know, we'll just go to bed. You know, because it really to acknowledge a lot of times, like, I know, I'm like, I try and explain that the wind is out there. The trees probably like hitting the, and I'm trying to like logically explain it, but you know, really, they want me to do something about it. And so I've just learned to just like, okay, you know, let's let's check it out. And I'll grab my flashlight and I'll go outside and I'll shine around. I'll open the window and you see anything? No, I don't see anything, but you know, I don't think anybody's here. We'll go back to bed. And then that was it. That's all they wanted. They just wanted me to like address it. So true. So, so something I did with my son when he was really little is there was a little period there. I remember how old he was three where he was scared. He was scared that there was a monster in his closet or whatever. And I did the same thing just like, there's nothing there. Don't worry. And it didn't work. And I remember one night, I was after like three nights in a row, I said, okay, that's it. I'm going to take care of this. Like I said that in front of him. So I opened up his closet and I'm like, if there's any monsters in here, I'm going to kick your butt. I'm going to kill you. You better get out of here. Don't mess with my son. We're all crushing. And he slept. That was it. He felt like, Oh, dad, dad made me safe and told off the monsters. And I was like, Oh, wow, that's it right there. So I actually think this is starting to happen. So one of my, our favorite things. So Katrina and I, after we put him down, we, we sit down and we like, we analyze like where he's at it because so much change is happening so fast. So fast. Yeah. When you get to this point, I think after the year mark, the changes are happening so rapidly and he's going through a change right now. And I actually attribute much of this to this exact point that we're talking about. So he's going through this phase where he's, he's clinging to me a lot. Like he, I mean, to the point where he runs to me right away and I can't put him down, especially when we're in places that are unfamiliar for him. And I remember at first, the, the first initial, initial reaction for Katrina was like, what the fuck? You know, I do most of the feeding here. I do, you know what I'm saying? So the chop liver. Right. Right. So you get a little bit of that and we weren't ready for that. I didn't, I actually prepared myself more for like, Oh man, is he going to be a mama's boy and he's not going to come to his dad very much and like, whatever, you know? So in fact, that didn't happen. He's now, he's like really, really attached to me. But part of the thing I was explaining to her, I said, you know, I represent that of him right now. I've asserted myself as the alpha in the house. Like, even when we enter, like she does not like max around the dogs. She's just, they fight enough that it scares her to be around the opposite. I've dropped him down right with the dogs and I, and she's always all paranoid and freaked out. But I always tell her when he's with me, like, you don't have to worry. I have control of the situation. I've already asserted myself as the alpha with the dogs. And so he, I think he feels safe with me and I've already, I've already established myself as that for him. And now you're starting to see that because he's becoming more aware of everything around him. He's now got this new thing. Dad is so safe and secure. And I think it's more of that. It's less that I'm definitely not providing more for him than his mother is. His mother is doing as much if not more work for raising him right now. But I definitely think that I'm, we're starting to divide in like who is what to him. Maybe mom is the love that provides, that does those things, feeds and comforts. And dad's becoming more of this, you know, the assertive protector, the bigger, more dominant presence. And you can see that the moments that he's more attached to me is when he's in an uncomfortable, so strangers over at the house, we go to a new place, dogs are in the environment, anything like that, he's immediately clinging to me. And you can see that's a lot of what's going on. That makes so much sense. Right, right. So much sense. Now, the next one, I think this one can be relatively generally unique to fathers because I think just in society and oftentimes we're raised to not show weakness or vulnerability, right? You want to be tough, you don't want to show that you're sad, you don't want to show that you're whatever. And I think that's a big mistake in front of your kids. I think it's important, you definitely want to show them consistency and strength. But you also want to show them that you're human and that you're vulnerable because it teaches them that that's okay for them to be vulnerable, especially to your sons. I remember one time in particular when my dad showed this, my sister, when she was younger, my sister had epilepsy and in control by medication, everything's good now. But when it first happened, it was kind of scary because we didn't know what was going on. So she's nine years old and they're doing MRIs and CT scans and all this stuff. And I remember we went to the hospital and they did these tests and I said my dad was working a couple hours away, so he's driving himself to the hospital. By the time he gets there, we're in the room with my sister. She's got the little oxygen thing in her nose or whatever. He walks in the room. I've never seen my dad cry before. He walks in the room and he starts tears come down and then he comes and hugs my sister. And all it did for me as a child was realize just how human and amazing my father was to see that. Didn't make me, I didn't think he was weak. I didn't feel unstable or anything. I just remember seeing that and seeing that my dad could show emotion and vulnerability when he saw his daughter in this hospital bed. And I think sometimes this is tough for dads. You don't want to show your kids that you're tired, you're stressed, that you or get sad or that you show anything other than strength and whatever. I think that can be a big mistake because it can teach your children to not be okay with their own feelings. Well, this is one of those lessons that I think served me in life. Like so before having a father, I started to piece this together as a trainer. Oh, totally. I remember initially when you're the trainer, you present yourself as this, you know, super strong, you know, get it. I'm fit. I'm ripped. I'm like, perfect. Yeah, confidence. Like it's called confidence that comes out at first. But you quickly realize that, you know, your clients already see you that way before you even started day one. In fact, most of them are very intimidated by you and are afraid to open up and share there. They can't connect. Yeah, they're, they're afraid to be vulnerable because you're not human. You're what you've attained, they've, you know, they dream of or they want to get to one day and they think that you're perfect and they, all these, these, these, these false ideas about who you are are swirling around in their head. And so I don't think it's very different for children either. I mean, children see that and they just assume that dad is invincible and he's so strong and he never cries. And so vulnerability, I think, I saw how much it served me as a, as a trainer and as a coach and as a leader, and made me realize that like, wow, how powerful that was showing these people that I too make mistakes or I too cry or I too have struggles in my life. It allows that, that person to connect with you on a much deeper level. And that when it comes to leadership or relationship is extremely important. So if it's important with clients and strangers that I didn't even know, I can't imagine how much more important that will be for my son, right? So I think that's at a very important point. Your kids are going to go through tough times. You want them to come to you and tell you that they're having tough times. What you don't want is where they're afraid to tell their dad that they're scared or hurt or whatever, because I can't show my dad that I'm weak. And then they got to try and deal with it themselves. That can cause a lot of problems. Yeah, I mean, this is a tough one for me. Much like, you know, you're talking about struggling, showing infection, Adam, I, this is one of those things where I want to be that rock solid sort of model for the kids and how to be a strong, you know, boy and lead, you know, the family. And for me, like this was, this is one that I've kind of wrestled with and tried to find opportunities to kind of show this. And again, personal training is definitely one of those avenues that have helped me to be able to communicate better and to be able to be more relatable and to show weakness and to show vulnerability. And so it doesn't always show up as crying and it doesn't always show up as these like really super sensitive moments. But it's definitely, I acknowledge, you know, when I'm dealing with something and I'm fearful or I've made mistakes, you know, in that same direction before, and I acknowledge that and I'm not, you know, I'm not this like untouchable, perfect person in their eyes because they asked me about it. Like, have you ever been, you know, have you ever had to go to the principal's office? Have you ever gotten in trouble for this? Or like they got, they missed an assignment or and I, and I'm very honest, you know, with that. And that took some, that took a lot of work for me to be able to do that and provide that because they need that, they need to be able to connect with me on that level and not feel like, you know, I'm up here and they can't like ever achieve that. Well, I'm glad you mentioned the crying thing for vulnerability. Because I think a lot of times we connect that and it's not just that. That's just one myth. In fact, it probably will present itself more in your everyday life with your son or daughter as admitting your faults. Totally. Yes. Totally. Is knowing when, because that's inevitable, you know, I don't care. I'm an early dad and I already know I'll fuck up, you know, I'm saying like, it's bound to happen. I'm going to make a bad decision. I'm not going to do the right thing. And when that moment comes, you know, are you the type of man that will admit that you didn't do it right, that you, you weren't a good father at that moment, you weren't a good husband at that moment, or you didn't make the right decision. And they saw that that to me is what real vulnerability is and what you'll probably be faced with more often than not. I'm sure I'm not going to find, I don't cry a lot period, not just because there's not a lot of things that make me feel that way where I need to cry, but there's plenty of times where I'm wrong. You know, there's plenty of times when I don't make the right decision or I make a bad decision. And that is where I see the most opportunity for fathers to step up and be vulnerable is to admit when you're wrong. Yeah, I had a clear example of this when we were evacuating from the fires and, you know, I had this real fear that like came over me, but I had to shield that and act strong and take everybody and start trying to create the opportunity to bring us into safety and bring our family out of like what I felt was this sort of impending doom, like making its way towards, you know, our house. And so I had a moment there later on where the kids were like, like they were really scared and they wanted to know if I was scared. And I was like, yes, I was really scared. And honestly, it was just, you know, it was just pure, it was courage. And so basically, I had to just summon the courage to now make, make, you know, the right decisions and navigate through that fear. What a great example, because now your kids know my dad was afraid, but look how he acted. That's what bravery comes from. You're not brave if you're not scared to begin with. Adam, you're talking about admitting when you're wrong. One of the most powerful things I've ever done ever was apologize to my kids because I did something or maybe I disciplined them in a way that later on, I was like, that's wrong. You know how many people have a trouble telling their kids, I'm sorry, you know, I yelled at you that way or whatever. Apologizing to my kids and it's like it really shows leadership and it is a vulnerable thing to do because you don't want to tell your kids. Well, that's actually the first rule of leadership is everything is your fault. That's right. That's right. Here's the next one and this one's really important and that is to show unconditional love. So what does that mean? That means don't withhold love as a condition of their actions. Now, this doesn't mean that they can, you know, do things that are wrong. This doesn't mean you can't be upset with them. This definitely doesn't mean that you're always going to like them. In fact, there's many times they don't like my kids, but they always know that I love them and I've had conversations with my kids where I'll sit them down and I'll say, look, the way you handled that situation made me very upset. You could have done that way better. I don't like the way you did that. I think that you showed, you know, these things that, you know, you did wrong, but then I'll say, you know, here's the deal. I always love you. I'm always, no matter what you do, I'm always going to love you. That doesn't mean I'm always going to like what you do, just like the thing you did. I don't like it, but I'll always love you. And I think this is important because what you don't want to do is have a kid who thinks that they only get love when they do the things that the other person wants them to do. This is a, that's a terrible relationship with love that can, you know, bleed out into friendships and partnerships. And so you want to show your kid, no matter what, no matter how unhappy I am, no matter how much you screwed up, I'm not going to tell you that you didn't screw up. So I'm not saying be afraid of telling your kids that they messed up. I mean, you tell them, I love you. That doesn't mean I'm happy with you, but I always love you. So I haven't had to deal with this yet, right? This is still so early for me to have something that I can think of an example like this. So, you know, the unconditional love thing for me, I also think of being able to tell your kid no, and then, and explain why. And what I think of is, is conversations that I've had to have with like my younger brother and sibling, like we have a good, you know, 10 to 15 year gap between the two youngest ones and me. And so I've played kind of a father figure role many times in their life. And one of the hardest things that I had to break was as they got older, they had behaviors that I had created for myself, right? I was the older brother that had success early, and they were still struggling living back at home. And so I came in with, you know, buy Christmas presents and birthday presents and shower them with gifts all the time, working through my own bullshit and insecurities, realized later on, all I did was really crutch them. And now they look to me as a safety net all time. And one of the hardest things I ever had to do was to tell them no. But I really think of that as that that's real unconditional love, because I love you so much that it'd be easy for me to give you $100. I don't sweat $100 right now. And if that were to help you get by and put gas in your car and do what you need to do. But what I realize is that I'm actually not helping you by doing that. I'm enabling you by doing that. So I think of situations that are probably going to hit my way, this will happen, right? There'll be times when I want to do something for my kid, and I don't want to enable them. And so being able to say no, and why I'm saying no and being able to articulate that to them, I also think of as unconditional love. Dude, that's the, that's huge. That goes right to the next one, which is discipline and structure. You know, when they do studies on children and how successful or unsuccessful they turn out as measured by life satisfaction, you know, if they live in poverty, if they've gone to jail, drug abuse, you know, all those measures, the most successful households that produce children that tend to turn out the best are the ones that are high love and high structure or high discipline. It's both. One without the other isn't very good. In fact, one of the worst households or outcomes are houses that are high discipline, low love. So you live in this extremely disciplined household that never shows love, that tends to produce some pretty bad outcomes. But if there's a lot of love you have and you have a lot of discipline, you end up raising children that are very self-discipline and feel very secure. So what does this look like? It looks like something like Adam said, you know, it's okay. You're okay with making your kid upset because you said no to the cookie or sorry, we got to turn off the video games. You've played too much or no, we can't, you know, I know you want that bike, but you know, I'm not going to buy you something every time you ask type of deal, you know, or structure, like this is the time we wake up. This is the time we go to bed. No, we all have dinner together. I know you want to hang out with your friends, but this is what we do. But you combine that with that unconditional love and what a great environment. And to echo that word no, it should mean no. And that sounds very like straightforward and simple, but there's been many a times where, you know, the comeback and the back and forth with, you know, listening to the ideas and trying to sell me on something else. But, you know, being very firm, but being nice and being gentle about it and having that already in mind that this is a boundary here. And this is something that I'm going to be consistent in this because I have to be consistent in this, whether I like it or not. And that's a responsibility of mine. It's not a responsibility of mine to make them comfortable, happy all the time and be their best friend. And that's a really, I think that's a big struggle for parents in general, because you don't want the uncomfortable side of that. You don't want the meltdowns. You don't want all this stuff that inevitably is going to result from having a very firm line. But if you don't create firm lines, then there's no real understanding that you have. Through that, that was, you know, or that was, as an individual, you know, like Jessica will tell me I'm one of the most disciplined people she's ever met. You know, I work out all the time. Nutrition is always very disciplined. I go to bed at the same time. If I'm going to do something for work, I make sure I do it. If I say I'm going to do something, I do something. But when it came to my kids, after getting divorced, I did not realize that this would be an issue for me, but it totally was. Because all of a sudden now they're at my house with me half the time, half the time with their with their mom, right? Half the time with me and I didn't want to upset them. I want them to like to be at my house and I want to shelter them and being consistent with discipline was hard. It was hard to say no. I really struggled this with this for a little while. I even today struggle with it a little bit, although I'm way better at it. But in the past, I would, I would give in because I'd be, I'd make them upset because I said no, then I start to feel bad. And I'm like, Oh man, I want my kids to like me. Like I want them to, you know, but it was, it was, it was a mistake. You have to be very consistent. They have to know what to expect from you. And if you say no, you're totally right, Justin. Then first of all, pick your nose. Yes. Yeah. Obviously. Because when you say, you got to stick to it. But when you say it, make sure you stick to it. Well, I also think this leads into the next point, which is the kiss and hug them, right? Because if, if you do a good job of that, it's a lot easier to say no to the other things. Totally. Right. If you're always the dad who's just no, everything's no and you're always cold about it. Yeah. You're always cold about it. It's always no, you're always the one who drops the hammer, the disciplinary. If you, if you paint yourself as that figure in them, it, this makes it really difficult. But if you do a really good job of making sure that you hug them and kiss them. And I really, I think of this again, another lesson in leadership and business, right? So one of my favorite books was one minute manager. The lesson in that book was, you know, we, before that, I was taught as a manager to point out the things that somebody is doing wrong and help them fix it. Right? So you don't, you're not being a very good trainer. Here's what you need to do. Coach them up. What that book taught me was to flip that completely on its head. Instead of always pointing out the things they're doing wrong, I'm always looking for the things that they're doing right. And if I do such a good job of kissing and hugging them or telling them all the things that they're doing well, they'll come to me when they're not doing things and right. And then I could coach them up. I think the same thing applies with this when I'm trying to be a good father. If I do a really good job of telling them I love them and kissing them and hugging them and constantly being there, the times that I drop the hammer or the times that they know they did something wrong, they're more likely to come to me and say, dad, I fucked up. Dad, I did this. There is nothing more powerful. And I learned this from the, there was this, God, there was a parenting love and logic. It's called love and logic is actually quite brilliant. And they make a big point about this when you discipline your kids to not to be angry and to show them that you love them and to empathize with them. And I thought, wow, that's interesting because I mean, I was raised a little old school. So not to criticize my parents, but if I did something wrong, got disciplined. It wasn't, it was like they were mad at me at the same time. But I tried this with my kids. Super powerful. Like, you know, sorry, bud, got to take your video games away. You can't play for, you know, for the next three days. And you know, the next day, like, oh man, I want to play my video instead of being like, no, no video games. I told you, like, I know that sucks, dude. I'm sorry, buddy. I wish you could play. Give them a hug, but not be condescending. Give them a hug, give them a kiss. Yeah, I know it's tough. It sucks. I know how much you like to play video. Oh my God, the power. It was so much more powerful to do it that way, to show them physical affection and love while disciplining, but be consistent. It's like, man, my dad's, you know, it doesn't hate me. He's just being consistent. He's doing this out of love versus my dad just hates me. Well, also too, what they bring up with the heart rate and like how you get into like an emotional state, like you don't want to discipline when you're in an emotional state. Oh yeah. So to remove yourself, you know, so this is something that I've always done. And I took this from my, my dad where, you know, we have an issue. I'm going to need you to go into the room and let me think about this for a bit and let me ponder, you know, how we're going to handle this. That's a lot. That's so powerful. Yeah. Because now, yeah, because now they're running it all around in their mind of like what's going to happen and all this kind of stuff. And you know, a lot of times I just, I'll walk in, I'll let them talk first and see what's on their mind. And I might adjust whatever punishment that I had, you know, kind of coming in. But really it's just, it allows me to regain composure, bring my heart rate level down, you know, bring that logical, rational side of my brain in the forefront instead of leading with my emotion. Yeah. And scare the fuck out of them. Yeah. You know what though? Because I think about that. It's a powerful moment. That too. It's a very powerful moment right there. Well, it is. But you know what? When you punish out of emotion, just like when you do anything out of motion, like if you make a, like fitness goals, you know, out of like extreme motivation, you know, oh yeah, I'm going to work out seven days a week, twice a day. If you punish out of emotion, this has happened to me. I'll tell my kids something ridiculous like that's that you're grounded for a month because I'm pissed off. And I'm like, damn it. Now I have to stick to that. You know, that's not very effective. So that's a good point. Here's another thing with physical affection. And my, my family was great at this part of it's my culture, you know, Southern Italians tend to be very physically affectionate, but it taught me to be comfortable with physical affection as a man. And I know a lot of boys or a lot of men, the only time they show physical affection is when they're drunk or, you know, maybe like in the movies when they got shot and, you know, feel the battle. And all of a sudden they're, they're talking about how much they love each other. Like punch each other after. Yeah. It's okay to show physical affection to other men. And this is what you, this is how you teach your boys. Like to this day, if I see my dad, the way I greet him is with a hug and a kiss. And it doesn't feel strange. It doesn't feel, my son's 15, you know, every day I probably kiss him three, four times on the head or on the face and tell him I love him. And, you know, he's 15 years old. It's like the peak of embarrassment for a kid. And, you know, I just do it. And it's not that big of a deal. For girls, it teaches them again, appropriate physical touch. This is also very important because on the one hand, you want your daughters to know, to be confident enough, when physical touch is inappropriate, because I think sometimes girls are in situations where they don't, they're afraid to say something. And also to know when it's appropriate, when it's okay that someone hugged them and it's not inappropriate. And so kissing and hugging your kids as a father, I think is, you know, super important. The next one, this one was a tough one for me, for sure. This is one I'm still working on, which is let your kids fail. Like, let them, let them fuck up, you know. Love and Logic talks about this. Like, the mistakes they make now are way easier than the mistakes they'll make later. That's also rule six and Jordan Peterson's 12 rules. That's don't ever do anything for your kids that they could do for themself. Yeah. So it's, and it's tough because like, I don't want my kid to get a, you know, a D on the test, but it's like, well, bet a D now is better than losing his job, you know, when he's older. We just went through this because we've been having certain challenges with this remote learning. And there's things that you know, you know that they're capable of doing that they're just not showing up and performing. And for, for me to make excuses, talk to the, you know, the teacher and, you know, what are we doing wrong? Like, no, he's not coming to perform at his best and that I have to leave that on him to, to figure that out. And that's tough. And we've, we've, we've had to discuss this, like between me and Courtney, like how, how to intervene and how to win, not to intervene and allow the teacher to do their job to point these things out and really like, you know, like, they're getting it from somebody else, not from us, like sort of masking over it. So this is another really interesting one for me because I actually know I won't have a problem with this. So I, I'm more afraid that I might be too hard, right? I probably identify more with our, our good friend, Joe Decino. And when we talk about this, right? When we talk about fatherhood and manufacturing adversity, I think about this all the time, like where I'm at in my life now is almost a 40 year old man. I think of the things that I went through as a child, that I probably felt sorry for myself and my teens and early twenties, I now am grateful for because of all that adversity, it made everything else in my life so much easier. And so what I'm afraid of is that my son is going to grow up nothing like I grew up, which is a good thing, I think. I think for the most part, it's a very good thing, right? I don't think he should grow up anything like how I grew up for the most part, but there is some good, there is, there is a silver lining in all that fucking drama and bullshit that I grew up in. And the silver lining in that was it taught me how to overcome all that adversity at a very young age. So I had great practice when I went into adulthood. So I think about it all the time. In fact, our first, you know, first argument or fight over the kid was this, right? So I might have shared, I don't know if I shared this in the podcast or not, but you know, I tell Katrina that all the time. Like when I see her family, so this is a, you know, shot across the bow right here, we'll see how this lands for Katrina. I might get it for this one. But in her family, the men are soft, man, they are. The men are soft, and the women are hard as fuck, though. I mean, all the women in Katrina's family are tough as nails. They're, they represent like most of the, her mom is like the queen of the family. Katrina is probably I would say second or third in charge as far as what everyone looks up to and respects. And so they, they have, her mom did such a good job of making sure that her, her daughters, her nieces, all the women in the family that were independent and they were strong, and they kind of coddled the boys and you see the difference in that. And so my fear is that she carries that behavior down into my son, like do not coddle my son that much. So this is a, our first little, our little first little scuffle with, with parenting was this was, we were trying to teach him how to crawl and you know, as soon as he would struggle and fuss and cry, you should go pick him up. He's a baby, you know, pick him up and oh, it's okay and hold him and stuff where she would catch me when I was working with him, I would let him cry, you know, let him cry it out a little bit and come on, come on, come on, Max, you can get a little bit further. And I remember, she got so upset one time because he like, I mean, a tear ran down his face, right? He was crying so bad when I was trying to get him to crawl one time. And we had this whole conversation and she says, you'll have plenty of time in his life to create adversity and to make things hard for him. He's a baby right now. And I said, Hey, it starts now. You know, these are the little, these are the little wins like you brought up the D. Like if you, if we look, if you look at every one of these things, like, Oh, he's just a kid at school, help him with his grades or Oh, he's just this, help him with that. It's like, no, if I want to teach him, he can do this on his own. He absolutely can learn to crawl. He will, he did, you know, so I'm, so I'm trying to find the right balance here, right? So I know that I'm going to be a dad who allows his kid to fail because I know I understand the importance of failure and adversity, probably good that I have a partner who's the extreme opposite. So we hopefully will balance and he'll get the right, the right amount. Which brings me to the next one. And this one's really important. It's make sure you support mom and show a united front. This reminds me of a scene from The Godfather. One of my favorite scenes from that movie was when they were meeting with other crime families. So you had the, you know, the Godfather with his sons, right? The main characters, they're meeting with another crime family and they're debating as to whether or not they should get into the drug business. And it was a sonny, his oldest son, right? His oldest son, Sonny, as they're debating or talking, you know, the main character, the Godfather says, no, we're not interested in the drug business. And then Sonny asks questions. He goes, wait a minute, how much money can we make? And maybe we should consider this. And the dad just gives him a look. And then he shuts his mouth and then they were done. And then when the other family left, he looked at his son and he goes, never show weakness in front of other people with the family. And of course in the movie later on, Sonny ends up getting shot or whatever because the other family saw weakness. But it's a very good lesson because I think it's very important that you and your, and the mom, you and your wife or you and their mom show that you're consistent. Even if you disagree, if you disagree, do it behind the scenes. So when the kids can't contradict each other, yes, when the kids are gone, then you say, Hey, look, I disagree. I think this is the, but in front of the kids, they should see that you got mom's back, no matter what, and mom's got your back, no matter what, you are there to support each other 100% and we're the same. There's no light in between us. And that takes work very much. And this is one of those things to like Courtney and I have really built that in over time where we really figured out our strengths, our weaknesses and where we could, you know, support each other more with that. And one of the, one of the main ones that comes to my mind, mainly because again, you're talking about like failure and allowing them to, you know, go through adversity. I'm pretty hard on them, like sometimes and, and, and, you know, and that doesn't strike Courtney in the same way. And she gets a little frustrated with me sometimes where I make a stern point about something, but I know that this is the bud that I'm snipping. So the rest of the day isn't going to be completely in this downward trend in this downward spiral, and I have to nip it in the bud. And that's just something I noticed. I noticed something that's going to turn into a bigger thing later and I address it really firmly. And, and that's something that used to, she used to get just like, crazy about it and thought that I was like being incredibly unreasonable and harsh and would, you know, sort of confront me on that a few times, initially in the beginning, because it was like, ah, it was just something that she just didn't agree with me on. And so then we finally, I explained myself in full, you know, over the years, and she's just been like, wow, yeah, this is 100% like I have your back. And so we've, we've sort of like corrected a lot of that, but just that little bit of dissension, the kids pick up on it and then boom, it just unraveled everything unraveled in front of us. So that was the point that I was going to make to this is that I think this is actually one of the most important, because if you don't figure this out, the kids will. So if you don't, they're smart as hell with this. Absolutely. If you don't figure this out as parents, don't worry, it'll get brought to the forefront because they will, and they will use it, they will manipulate and then all that will do is cause more division and more divide with not only your kids, but also your partner. So I think that has to be something that is laid out. This was something that was talked about well before, Katrina and I had a kid is like, first of all, getting out all the things we agree, we disagree, like, and I told you before that I know that the, you know, the adversity thing is going to be the biggest challenge for us because it's something that we still don't see. But at the same time, she doesn't undermine me. She doesn't come behind me and rescue him when I'm trying to teach a lesson. And that's the main thing that I think. And vice versa. Right. And so what, and what she might do afterwards is when we're in the room, just her and I say like, Hey, that was a little rough on him. Why did you do that? Like why? I mean, he doesn't need to be, you don't need to do that to him. And then we'll have a nice healthy debate and discussion over it. Like, well, no, I disagree. This is why. And, and that's how we come to grips with things that we don't see eye to eye. Because that's inevitable, right? You're two different people. You probably have, you were raised differently by different parents. And so there's a very good chance. You're going to run into situations where you don't see eye to eye on how to raise the kid. But it's very important that the kid doesn't see that the kid sees that mom and dad always agree. They're always united. And you do that in front of them. They're a team. That's right. They take together, they see that. And then it's totally fine. Later on in that night, when kids are in bed or like that, you can say, Listen, asshole, you were way off on that. Maybe, maybe not. You could tell them then and you guys have that discussion debate, but you stay united in front of them. I think it's one of the most important. And at the very least, you say this, like, Well, mom, why are you doing, you know, and then they look at you, dad. And then you say, I got your mom's back. So she said that that's what you got to do. If you disagree, you could always say that. Sorry, that's what your mom said. So I got to back it because your mom said it. And that way they know what mom says dad means and what dad says mom means, too. This last one also very important. It's to remember that your words have power. And what I mean by that is this, if you're going, there's nothing wrong with criticisms. I think we're all, you know, there's this whole thing about like, don't criticize your kids. Oh, no. Okay. There's, there's good criticisms that are constructive constructive. And then there's bad criticisms that aren't. So I'll give you a good example. So let's say your, your kid is playing soccer with his friends or he put them in a league and they lose. Okay. They lose. And you know, one of the reasons why they lost as your kid just wasn't practicing enough or really trying hard enough. Now here's bad criticism. You know, son, you suck. Yeah, you play like crap. You're not good. You suck, right? Here's good criticism. You know, well, you lost because you could have practiced more, you know, now your kid says, okay, I could practice more, you know, your kid brings home a bad grade, you know, math, that's just hard for you. You're not good at math, you know, or, or worse, you're dumb, you're stupid. Instead of saying, you didn't study enough, you need to study, you need to work harder if you want to get a better grade. So those are the, that's what I mean by words have power is rather than criticizing your kid in a way that makes them feel like this is who I am. It's, it's criticizing things that they can change. Like they can work harder, they can try harder, they can change their actions versus, oh, I'm a bad person. I'd like to get to those conversations with questions. I, you know, so if you were to, you know, be driving home from a game that was obvious that, you know, that they lost and, you know, and then you're hearing a lot of talk in the backseat about, you know, well, the refs were this, you know, like, okay, and I like to ask the questions. I was like, okay, and how do you feel your performance was individually? And, and why do you think that, you know, that kid scored so many goals on you guys. And, and, you know, and then this keeps going and going and helps to point out, you know, the obvious, like you weren't out there practicing, you weren't doing what these other kids were doing and you weren't putting the work in, therefore, they're a better team. And that's just how it works. Right. And then it takes a step further because I, you know, I would have those conversations I still do with my kids. And I say this, I say, look, this person did better than you did. And that's okay. There's nothing wrong with, in fact, you know, you're probably never going to be the best at anything in the world because there's just so many people that are amazing at certain things. And that's okay too. I said, but if you want to be better, you know, you got to work harder. So it's up to you. If you're okay with losing, that's fine then. But if you want to win and you want to beat the other team, you just got to practice more. Now, I think this goes even further back, right? So you guys both alluded to stories related to kids playing sports, right? So we're looking at five years or older and the most malleable years for kids as far as their brain development is between five and seven. So it began, it begins even before that, but that's the most malleable years, right? So they are just this recording machine. They are recording and downloading everything that's around them. That's why I alluded earlier about Katrina leaving the room, even when there's negative energy. If somebody is in there spreading gossip, talking negative about maybe their spouse or friend or some bullshit at work. We don't even want Max to be around that and hearing that and picking that up. And I'll give you a funny example of my best friend, their kid is about eight months older than Max. So they get to experience things a little bit before. And this is a bit funny because it's how it came, what happened, but it also demonstrates how powerful your actions as parents and as words can be even already at this young of an age before two years old. So they're trying to potty train their son right now. And one of the things that they would be playful, because he's understanding, you know, and reactions and facial expressions. When he would poop, they'd go, oh, gross, yucky. And they would say that to him, like, let's go to the toilet. And they had their intentions were right, right? They had good intentions are trying to teach him that. But what ended up happening because they every time that they would smell and see a poopy diaper, whatever that they would say, something like, oh, gross. It started to make him feel ashamed of pooping his pants or pooping in the in the diaper. So then he began to hide every time that he had to go to the bathroom. And now it's an even greater challenge for them to teach him how to go to how to go to the bathroom. I use that as an example, because this is an area where the intentions were pure and they mean well by what they're trying to do. But just to highlight how powerful the actions and the words that we say in front of these kids when they're so young like that, and you got to be thinking like that all the time that if you yell something out loud or you're screaming at the football game that you're watching, I mean, those kids are just sitting there downloading all that information. And even if you have good intention, be aware of the things that you say in front of them because how powerful. Totally. Here's another one. And this one is not so obvious. And I'm so happy I read about this before I had children. I thought this was so brilliant. Instead of telling your kids that they're so smart or so talented or so good at something. So good looking. Yeah. Instead of doing that, which there's nothing necessarily wrong with that, but what that may do is reinforce in your child's mind that oh, I'm so smart, everything should come easy to me. And then the second they encounter a challenge, they might not even want to do that challenge because well, I'm smart and I don't want anybody to know that I'm not smart with this or this is tough and they run away from it. So instead of that, you know, I like to compliment things that I know that are very useful. Like, you know, your kid comes and shows you art and it's really good. Instead of saying, wow, you're a talented artist. You know, you say something like, I can tell you really enjoyed doing that and you spent a lot of time on that. And that will just reinforce that. Oh yeah. I'm somebody that likes to spend time on things or I'm a hard worker or versus I'm smart, things need to come easy to me or I'm talented. This needs to come easy to me. Just like some examples of how much power your words have. Look, Mind Pump is recorded on video as well as audio. Come check us out on YouTube Mind Pump podcast. You can also find us on Instagram, including Doug, the producer. So you can find Doug at Mind Pump, Doug, you can find Justin at Mind Pump, Justin, me at Mind Pump, Sal and Adam at Mind Pump, Adam. Like all this is all before CrossFit and all that. And I was doing it with dumbbells, like in place, but it was super like intense. Like it was just one thing after the next, after the next. And then she just all like mid workout just stops and just busts out crying and just starts crying and crying, crying. I love to see how you would have handled that. And I was just like,