 There are some people I'm sure that it maybe will watch this or are out there that Have a reaction against biblical criticism Feeling that there's a danger there going down the road of you know say someone like Bart Ehrman, which we would say has it's taken His studies so far. He's starting to question a lot of the things of orthodox Christianity How would you respond to that like? What is the proper way to analyze these things is this a real criticism? Yeah, what's your take on all this? You're right. It is a big question And books have been written on this books books and more books and I will not answer it in two minutes I will not even do it justice in 30 And even laying out the problems Let me just kind of wander a bumble about a bit and say some things which hopefully Make sense to some level first of all Bart Ehrman went to Moody pretty fundamentalist by all school Went to Wheaton after that I think did his MA there and then went to Princeton Theological Seminary Which is not Princeton University by the way, same town completely separate school And at Princeton Theological Seminary Decided he was an agnostic I guess he just decided it didn't work for him the Christianity he understood and at this point He's an atheist maybe even a militant atheist. I think he likes to poke fingers in the eyes of Christians So he's kind of made a name for himself a not very good name for himself might say In this area. So Yeah, he's a poster child of something that we sort of reflexively just instantly know we don't want to do we don't want to be and I'll just talk about a couple of things first of all Christians who said we do need to be careful are not wrong I live with this tension of trying to know what to do how to read the bible as a Christian As an academic every day. I live in that tension in what I do specifically not as much but just in the whole environment. It's there But there's a couple of things to remember. So first of all, we could just say danger. I shall not go there. Okay I have not noticed Mennonites to be scared of danger like In the bible, I think the most warnings we get from Jesus are related to money And yet I know of a lot of wealthy Mennonites So it doesn't scare us like for some reason this should scare us money should scare us like nothing else if we're just taking The bible at its most literal and and just most what can I do to get this right sort of way? And yet we we play in the danger zone if you ask me all the time We're not worried about that. So it seems almost like academics is an area where Mennonites are like that's a line You don't cross But is that actually the way it should be? Um, and I think there's several reasons why just saying keep away from that is not a good answer Um, and let me start with just just an easy one Um, it's sort of by way of illustration So I grew up thinking and I'm not sure why people say this not claiming anyone But the idea was that if you Do anything academic you lose your faith you lose your risk of losing or you're at risk of losing your faith So you don't do it and academics is the most godless thing there is because Of the kind of people they turn out because of kind of worldview they have you just don't go there. You don't do it You don't do it. You don't do it. Okay Um, what about this one in the uk, which is a pretty secular society, right? Unless christians here fewer christians percentage wise than in the u.s I think it's around five percent go to church every sunday Doesn't mean they're christians necessarily, but they go to church. Okay, so that's that's one metric about five percent anyone Go to church on a given sunday. Okay Um, there are several places in the country that have a higher church attendance ring I think at least in some cases about double that's about 10 still up but higher. Um, you want to guess where these are I think I see where you're going with this is this in like university areas. I don't know but like that wouldn't So there's an obvious right. There's an obvious one, which is london, right? There's a lot of immigrants in london a lot of immigrants higher church rate that makes sense You know, you come from africa a lot of them from christian nations in africa. They come through Um, they come to the uk Yeah, so higher there for sure because of immigrants. Um, but the other two. Yes, you see where i'm going Cambridge and oxford These are the two great academic centers of the uk and really over europe in a lot of ways the top 10 These are the world they have about 10 church rate Everywhere else doesn't So you go out and just like the countryside like which is sort of the heartland of christianity in the u.s Is in the countryside, you know in the deep south or wherever It is not that way here Um, you go there and you have dying churches. You don't have living churches things are not happening Um, Cambridge is sort of the evangelical hotspot of the uk I don't know why It's a funny thing like half half the divinity faculty and when I say divinity, I don't mean they're teaching or training you become pastors It's really the old name for what's now a religious studies department. I think I think it can feel it actually Basically, they're looking at Religion in a number of different environments and contexts things like that half the religion of the religious studies faculty the divinity faculty here at cambridge is um evangelical christian Which is What other university in the world can say that? I don't know. I it's an unusual fact. It's a funny thing. So it's I think what I'm saying is that Academics and faith are not necessarily Pivot against each other I think it's how we've been conditioned to think and we've seen it happen and we've seen barred urman and we've seen you know I don't know mc usa or something We sort of said this is doesn't work and this is why it doesn't work And I think maybe our our reasons need to be rethought a little bit Um, so so that's one thing that that's just just one possible thing that we should think about Well, I'm at the same time saying it's not wrong some of the criticisms that that have been leveled. It's not like they're without merit Please I'm for sure not saying that Um, but but it's something that that needs to be thought about something else to think about and here I may need to to restate several times to To get this said very well um Is the problem and I'm just asking this is a question that that I've tried to wrestle with Is the problem that christians who enter academia Leave faith become agnostic is the problem with academia or is it with the christian who entered that academia? Let me say that again Is the problem when christians who join academia become agnostic is the problem with the christian or with the organization they entered And I think we've sort of thought that It's with the organization they entered And I would like to think about that a little bit more and think about it a little more carefully like who says Who's who says that's that's how it is? um What I've noticed in academia, and this is just anecdotal. I I don't have any claim of great knowledge But what I've noticed is that christians particularly fundamentalist type christians, you know more evangelical Um, this is what the bible says. This is this is what we believe the bible says, etc etc etc and we're sure about this and you know, this is what we hang our hat on and we're very very certain When they hit academia when they when they interact with these things they lose their faith Um, there are many other people who are very committed to their beliefs that do not lose their faith Jews are a very notable notable example to that so some very um I don't know if conservative is the right conservative is the word you can very broad terms you can throw around a lot of different ways um, but you know, they're wearing their their kipa the That they're wearing that you know in teaching They observe a number of You know the observances that they do or whatever they are and shabbat other things And yet they're they're in academia and there's no contradiction for them Um, and if you want to talk christians who do seem to do better in academia Um, in my opinion, it's it's catholics. So they're high church type christians, you know, dutch reformed orthodox They seem to do better in interacting with academic ideas while keeping their faith than do evangelical christians And so again, I guess I'm asking the question is the fault Of the trend towards agnosticism and evangelical christians when they enter academia Is that the fault of the organization that they're entering or is it the fault of the christians? Who tried to enter it of the person trying to enter it. It's an open question I I don't claim to know the answer, but I think we need to think about that a bit more carefully because Let's face it. We often have a very naive reading of the bible and we just sort of assume we know I'm not sure why we think we know but I think sort of because You asked me how I know he lives he lives within my heart And so we just know and because of this just just somehow this amazing knowledge we have We just assume we're going to get every question right and we we sort of We're winning without trying And uh, we're no matter what we enter we're just going to be right and then we hit an idea that doesn't see the fit with our world view And we have no idea what's going to happen next. We don't know and then we just lose everything So so then the baby bath water, you know, we're trying to be sincere. We're so sincere Sometimes we confuse ourselves um, and so I think It's it's a obviously multifaceted issue. It's complex But we need to be careful before we just say it's bad We shouldn't do it and of course we shouldn't just say, oh, it's perfect. We shouldn't there. There's no critiques to be made Uh, lots of humility is required, but we do need to be careful. We often Are very bothered by certain viewpoints and we just know they're wrong. Why are they wrong because it Disagrees with mine. Well, that's not a very substantive way to have a conversation and and in our effort To be ideologically pure. We've increasingly shutter ourselves off from people who think other than ourselves and it makes Faithful people. I don't know if it makes very deep christians or actually very committed christians just in a way ignorant christians we mean well and I think god is blessed with that but I think he's blessed with christians who understand the complexity of what the bible is And yet is to believe it A friend of mine here recently said he said we need to stop Telling people that the bible is written so that a sixth grader can understand it He said the bible nowhere makes such claims To be understood by sixth grader like stop saying this is all simple We can get this the bible is is easy to understand like the bible makes does not make that claim That's something the seer of that has superimposed on the text itself. It's an extra biblical idea And so to say the bible is simple and you know only if if you just in your spirit you realize it Um, and that's the way forward and then hearing bible stories It's just these neat little stories about how you should do things and I shouldn't do it And how you should trust god and not not do that if that's just your little simple view of the bible um I think you in a way haven't Engaged with all the bible so it's not just that We're saying the bible needs to be read a certain way. We aren't even engaging with the text itself. It's carefully realized So just yeah, I think it's a warning to all of us to be more careful in what we're doing before we're just assuming we know So we're we're taking a bit of a pivot away from from that conversation I guess it kind of segues into this one, but your work there at cambridge It sounds to be fairly complex technical along those lines. How have you found that level of deep study? Of of the text or of the manuscripts. How has that affected your personal spiritual life? I mean, I'd love to tell you just do whatever I did and it all worked out perfectly Um, the truth is I'm I'm a person and listen carefully. Um, I'm a person who struggles with my faith Um, I don't want to but I don't find it easy to believe um, and I've talked to some people about this and One of the pieces of advice that seems to have stuck the best with me and I don't claim to live it out very well Um, but I do try Is that recognize that faith? It's not the absence of doubt But sort of the choice to go forward in the midst of it and you and you think about it that makes more sense too like faith That of a child is beautiful. They just trust their dad's going to catch them that they decided to run off the edge of the table They don't even think about it. It's beautiful But it's childlike and while we do need to have the faith of a child um I don't think I think it would be incorrect to say that that's all we should have Um, because we aren't children we're adults and god calls things of us in keeping with our ability And that is our physical ability our mental ability our emotional Etc. He calls us in keeping with it things that ask everything of us that that's that's god's style um He doesn't want us to just be these little babies and so I think it's important that faith Realizes complexity and chooses to go forward and and that's what I want to do. I hope I can do that um But in terms of how my technical complex studies, whatever at Cambridge Seeds with that. There's really no contradiction. I don't think What I'm doing is most decidedly not controversial. I don't care how fundamentalist of a christian or how I don't know atheists isn't really even the opposite, but whatever your other other poll would be here They're both a look at my work with equal happiness. Like it's it's data. It's not lying. It's not not making it up I'm not it doesn't it doesn't factor into faith really I think I think if something in academics would make it difficult is that you're very alone um So it's not the work itself or the fact that you're alone, you know christianity works best in community And you don't have your community And what makes it more difficult is that I find that it's often Easiest and best to talk to people who are at the same place in life that I am, you know, someone else that's I don't know Then academics or that's thinking through some bible problem um Struggling with it, you know those sorts of things those are people that I can connect with best on some of these deep issues for me and There aren't many people like that from my past I really can think of almost no one So it's very lonely and that's probably more detrimental than than anything else or a potential for detrimental because it's hard to thank community when you're alone I go that I suppose taught us that to remind us of that Is there anything else you would like to add in closing as as we wrap up this episode? I mean, I would say to people that are interested in academics. Um, I'm not just saying biblical studies, but um Whatever subject you're interested in, you know, if you do it faithfully and you do it well I think you should find a lot of success One thing men and I have going for them is their usual their their willingness to work hard and In academics people think you have to be really smart to go somewhere No, you don't have to be smart. Maybe all you have to be is stubborn You just keep working at it There's so much of so much of life like take a language for instance We all can speak a language even those people with the lowest IQ there I well, I mean, I guess a certain point was like cut off, but people can speak is the point And we all can can can learn a language if we're willing to work out along. So you don't have to be brilliant You have to just keep at it. Wow. That's fantastic. Thank you so much for coming on vince and uh, Maybe maybe we can do this again sometime Uh, hopefully in person. Maybe I can get over there again after after the virus is over So that would be a coming visit come visit. Love to have you Reagan That was that. Yes. Thank you so much for your time and blessings in your studies You