 Daily Tech News show is made possible by its listeners. Thanks to all of you, including Jeffery Zilx, Tony Glass, and Phillip Less. Coming up on DTNS, Dave Hamilton joins us to convince you to get Wi-Fi 6E routers even if you don't have any Wi-Fi 6E devices. And I think he's right. Plus the new Apple iPads and live stream shopping keeps trying to make you love it. This is the Daily Tech News for Tuesday, October 18th, 2022 in Los Angeles. I'm Tom Merritt. From New York City, I'm IA Zaktar. I'm the show's producer, Roger Chang. Man, I wish we would have sent Roger to Chicago. Then we would have had all three major cities across the U.S. Joining us host of the Mac Geek GAB podcast, Dave Hamilton. How's it going? It goes. Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you for being with us. I can't wait to talk routers. Wi-Fi 6E, a little backhaul. If you're into backhaul, folks, we got something special for you. Let's start with a few tech things you should know with the quick hits. The U.K.'s competition and markets authority has affirmed its November 2021 decision to order Metta to sell Giffy. The review concluded that Metta could potentially increase its market power by denying or limiting other social media platforms access to Giffy, GIFs or videos and push people to Metta owned sites, which already account for up to 73% of time spent on social media in the U.K. Metta said it will not appeal the decision. It's just given up. Sony announced that it will release its DualSense Edge PS5 controller globally on January 26th. It will sell for about 240 euros in the EU and around $200 in the U.S. The new PS5 controller includes button remapping and other customizations like stick sensitivity and swappable components. Priors begin October 25th. Google TV is adding some family focused features like parent controlled watch lists and algorithmically generated suggestions for kids profiles. Parents will be able to add titles to a child's must watch list and parents can define rating levels and add and remove titles to affect what gets recommended by the algorithm. The features will show up first on the Chromecast with Google TV followed by other Google TV powered devices. Intriguing. At Adobe Max 2022, the company announced that Photoshop for the desktop, iPad and web are getting improved image editing including improvements to automated object selections, content to where it fills, file sharing collaboration and content crediting. The new share for review feature in beta lets you share a copied version of work with a web link for clients and coworkers to comment on without needing the master file or even needing a creative cloud subscription. Comments will sink across devices. Wait, they're not going to make me pay? FedEx announced the end of the road for its test of the ROXO last mile autonomous delivery robot. ROXO R-O-X-O will no longer have a chance to be a FedEx employee. Just weeks after Amazon announced the end of its field test for the Scout delivery robot, FedEx Chief Transformation Officer Sriram Krishnasami reportedly broke the news to staff last week saying, although we are ending the research and development efforts, ROXO served a valuable purpose to rapidly advance our understanding and use of robotic technology. Which is true, FedEx isn't given up on robots. They just didn't find that ROXO was going to be beneficial in the near term. They still have an internal project called Drive that is researching lots of delivery technology. All right, let's talk a little bit about Apple having an announcement today. But they did a few other things before we get to that. It restored two apps from Russia's VK after removing them three weeks ago. Apps from VK were polled because the company had links to Russian banks sanctioned by the UK. But as of Monday, social network Vkontakte and WebmailServiceMail.ru are back in the Apple App Store. Just those two, not all the apps that got polled. And it's unclear why those two apps were restored. Apple also granted my wish that it just send out press releases with specs instead of making us watch an hour or more of video when they announce new products. Thank you, Apple. Let's talk about what they launched. Ayaz. There's a new 10th generation iPad. It has a 10.9 inch screen. It runs on an A14 Bionic chip. And it looks a lot more like the air and pro models. The new iPad no longer has a home button, so they move the fingerprint reader to the power button. This iPad is the first to have its front facing camera on the landscape edge. Lightning is out. The 10th generation iPad uses USB-C for charging and connecting. But it doesn't work with the second gen Apple pencil. You still need the first gen pencil, which is charged using a lightning connector. So you're going to need a dongle for that pencil. Yay. The new 10.9 inch iPad starts at 449. Preorders are open now, with shipping starting on October 26th. There's also a new Magic Keyboard Folio case to go with a new iPad. That folio costs $249. At least they're including the dongle with the pencil now, if you buy the old pencil. Next up are two new iPad Pro models running on the M2 processor, the same one available in the MacBook Air. And the new iPad Pro screen can detect the Apple pencil, second gen, within 12mm of the surface to allow for better precision and do things like, you know, expand a text box or another user interface element as the pen approaches the screen. Also comes with Wi-Fi 6E. That'll play into our later conversation. The 11-inch iPad Pro starts at $799. 12-inch model starts at $1099, both available for preorder now, shipping October 26th. And we have one more product or line of products. Something like that. There are two refreshed Apple TV 4K models, both have support for HDR10+, if you have a TV that also supports that. They run on the A15 processor. The included remote now charges by USB-C instead of lightning. Another USB-C. The 64GB Wi-Fi only model costs $129, and the 128GB with Ethernet model costs $149. They are available for preorder now and start shipping on November 3rd. If you've got an Apple TV but want that USB-C remote, you can buy it separately for around $60. It's arriving this week. And finally, Apple announced that Mac OS Ventura and iPad OS 16 will release on October 24th. Now Dave, someone who started Mac Observer and does the MacGab podcast, I imagine you were paying attention to these announcements. What struck you the most? Well, a lot of things struck me about these. This new, the colorful iPad 10th gen. We'll call it the entry-level iPad, although the price bump that it saw by about $150, I don't know how entry-level it is anymore. Like you mentioned to guys, the FaceTime camera moving to landscape mode, I think there were a lot of people cheering about that. That to me makes a huge difference. It's weird, understandable from a supply chain standpoint, but still weird that the new iPad Pro that came out still has the camera on the short edge, aka the portrait edge. But I think we're seeing the future telegraphed will get there eventually. Odd though that in reverse, the new iPad Pros gets Wi-Fi 6E, the new iPads, brand new design, 10th gen, Wi-Fi 6. Yeah. And as I understand it, that wouldn't be necessarily hardware reliant, right? Oh, no, that's hardware because it's the Wi-Fi 6E. Okay. Yeah, you do need the chip. You have to have the other chip. But I guess what I'm trying to say is like that seems like it wouldn't be as big of a deal as a whole new frame for the landscape. But unless they already had all those chips ordered, right? All supply chain driven. It's a way to get rid of all the Wi-Fi 6, not E chips by putting them into the iPad. That makes sense. You're right. I did suggest on Twitter that we do a GoFundMe to just buy up all of the frames so we can force them to use landscape in the future. But yeah, I agree the entry level iPad is now a higher step of entry at that price. But I think people are happy to finally see it stepping up in those features, right? Agreed. Yeah, for sure. No, I'm excited about that. But I live in this world. I buy things a little bit without worrying about the price because it's the thing I have to test because of my job. So I have a weird relationship with Apple and their prices. I realize I say that and admit that I lead a charmed life, but it's kind of how it works. Now, I think in the press release they did mention, Apple mentioned that in a footnote, they're not getting rid of the ninth generation iPad. So that way you can still get the home button and you could start at three, whatever, instead of being 429, sorry, 449, because they wanted to say it starts at. So when you look at the Apple page on the top, you see iPad, it's got two of them. You see the old model and the new one. So they'll be able to say starts at and you'll go, hey, that's kind of neat. I want that, that I can get some more colors with iPad, which is weird. It looks so much like the iPad Air at this point. Why they wouldn't bother with the second generation pencil? Just finish the first gen. It's done. Okay. It's silly. It's ridiculous. And you can't even charge it directly like you could with the old lightning. If you guys don't remember what that pencil looks like, it's got a little eraser that comes off, lightning adapter. You used to plug it into the iPad. It looked like a ridiculous paddle or something. Just let it go, guys. Let it go. Yeah, that's probably supply chain stuff too. I think the other thing that's interesting about this is the continued separation of iPad from iPad Pro, where the iPad Pro is more laptop like and the M2 processor being the same one that's in an air makes the iPad Pro just a touch screen MacBook Air without a keyboard. Yeah, you have to buy a separate keyboard if you want it. Whereas the iPad, the A14 Bionic, and correct me if I'm wrong, that's the iPhone 12 chip, right? Like that's a couple of gens back. I'm doing the math. I think you're right. Yeah, I think it's 12. It's certainly a couple of gens back. Yeah, you're right, 12. Yeah, that would be correct. So Apple's saying like this is good enough, right? This works, but you're not going to push this one to the limit. This is a tablet. Even though they also sell keyboards for it, the iPad Pro, however, is seen more closer to a hybrid or a laptop replacement, it feels like. And not just keyboards, detachable keyboards. The user experience of the 10th gen iPad is what a lot of people who have the iPad Pro or would buy the iPad Pro would want to your point because it's power wise more like a laptop. But is the iPad 10th gen enough for most people? Maybe. Maybe. Yeah, if all you need is a tablet and you just, you know, word processing an email, the old the old saw. Yeah, it might be good enough for you. That $20 Delta between the two Apple TV 4Ks seems weird to me because if you're just buying one of them, you almost certainly want the $149 version because in addition to having a gigabit port, that also adds thread mesh support for your for your matter devices, which are coming and will matter soon. Yeah, like that's a weird $20 Delta to me. It is. And it tricked me. I bought the $129 one thinking I don't need 128 gigabytes before I thought about the matter stuff. I also probably don't need Apple TV to be matter compliant. I'm doing things in a different way. I say that until the day I run into the use case where I'm like, gosh, I really wish my Apple TV was matter compliant right now, which which may come someday. But I'm using Amazon as my hub. So that that probably will be a little farther off. The other thing to note is that iPad OS coming October 24th with with all of its promised problems, at least according to the beta testers, they were supposed to release it last month. They put it off till this month to fix things. Do you think that they'll be fixed? Problems not yet. No. Yeah, so maybe hold off on that one. Ventura, you know, normal things apply. If you got anything critical, wait a week and see how everybody goes. iPad OS 16, you might want to wait a little longer. All right. Much like Fetch, tech companies really want to make live stream shopping happen in the United States. It's been a big success in the Asia Pacific region, particularly in China. China's forest cabin cosmetics brand, for example, reported that in July 2020, 80% of its sales started coming from online before that 80% had come from in store. Revenues were $12.59 billion in China in 2020 and are I'm sorry 125.9 billion in China in 2020 and are expected to reach $512 billion this year. Keep those numbers in mind. They're three digits long and compare them to the US market where we have some live stream shopping going on Amazon does it sometimes it's separate apps than the Amazon app. Walmart does it with some third parties providing the platform. TikTok is doing it. There's even some apps like network, which is spelled NTWRK that focus specifically on live stream shopping. Corsite research estimates that live stream shopping in the US is going to reach 20 billion this year. That's just two digits case you're keeping it case you lost track. And it will hit 57 billion by 2025, but that's still two digits. Wall Street Journal writing today that live stream shopping is so big in the Asia Pacific region, thanks to monopolies and targeting. For example, China's Alibaba can track the link you receive on its messaging app. Know you watch the video on you kutudu and guide you through the purchase on Taobao all without leaving its ecosystem. Man, I as go go ahead and tell us how it works in the United States. It's a little different here in the US. You need an influencer retailer multiple tech platforms to get the same job done. A US user might have to download a new app and enter personal information and payment information in multiple places. Alibaba makes it much simpler. Hence the multitude of stories involving Instagram, TikTok and others experimenting with ways to integrate shopping and particularly payments into their platforms. And you need to get people interested in watching the content needs to be entertaining enough to get people to watch it from more than just the sales and still make it that viewers want to buy the things that they're seeing. Think about like a cooking video with the ability to buy the utensils, the ingredients and everything else you're seeing in that video. Yeah, David, I don't know if you followed this space at all, but it's something I've been following on DTNS for a while that they see how successful it is in China and other parts of Asia and companies just salivate at that. Have you have you dabbled in this at all? Not really. We live in the US world here with the shows that we do and no, not really. No. Yeah, I think what's fascinating about it is it really does come down to payments. And I wonder if that's an indication of something wider in the US market that needs attention because, yes, different kinds of antitrust regulation and certainly different privacy regulations in China are going to make it easier to keep everybody in a system like Alibaba's where all those elements are popular in the United States. We intentionally try to keep things separately, try to keep personal information from flowing too easily from one partner to another. So if you're doing a live stream on YouTube and your payment comes from PayPal, it's going to make things more difficult. It puts a roadblock in the way of the shopper. And so it makes this less compelling than it is when all you got to do is tap a button and your stuff pre-populates and yeah, I've spent my money. The US market and like different pay technologies seems to be a little slower. Remember like tapping to pay like, oh, that's amazing. It's like what that's been around in Asia forever. So many of these technologies we just knew as they don't accept as quickly as others with all the different options we're seeing from Apple Pay, Google Pay, Samsung Pay, all these different variants. If it's linked through your phone account, maybe that will be a way to link your accounts as long as they're linked through something. That's the big argument. Who gets to be the like person in the middle or the company in the middle that can see all your data? How do they make sure that they don't make you feel like they're using you as a product, which is kind of what they want to do. You're buying, they want to watch what you're buying. So you've got that part versus the influencer market, which is also a whole other, how do you even begin to describe that? It's a mess. It's kind of like it's micro-targeting at this point. So it's, I don't know if this is something that's going to take off in the US unless it becomes super easy, but I don't know. I've got an idea. Uh-oh. I've got, so you need to have the talent and the streaming platform combined with the ecosystem that you can say it's first party. I'm not bringing in third-party tracking, so I'm not going to run a fall of privacy. And then you have to have the payment system. And there's a company called Apple that has two of those, the first-party ecosystem and the payment system. And Apple TV Plus isn't going to be the same as the live stream shopping that we're talking about in China, but they could do a cooking show where they make it super easy to buy stuff on the cooking show. They could do a tech show where you're buying the products as you're watching. I don't know if they'll do it though, Dave. Is that why you're good? I don't see it. No, because Apple doesn't just talk the talk with privacy. They actually walk the walk. They wouldn't have to violate privacy because it's all stuff they know already. Yeah, but when we're recommended things, it seems creepy to us regardless of how that recommendation data came about, right? Even if it's totally legit, it's like, wait, why am I being recommended this stuff? This is weird. I don't know. So I don't see Apple. Apple has never telegraphed that they're going to do anything like this. I don't think they're going to add part three. I'm just saying they could. Oh, there's a lot that Apple could do. I mean, I could be wrong too. It doesn't mean they should. Wouldn't be the first day. Folks, what do you think we should talk about on the show? One way to let us know is our subreddit. You can submit stories and vote on them at DailyTechNewShow.Reddit.com. We have a whole episode of Know a Little More about Wi-Fi 6, but the short version of Wi-Fi 6E is that it adds support for the 6 GHz spectrum alongside Wi-Fi's already existing 2.4 and 5 GHz support. 6 GHz gives you less range than the other two, but can accommodate more data. Now that's great if you're a stadium or a train station. Many of our listeners are not stadia or train stations. They may not have any Wi-Fi 6E-capable devices in their house, which may make you think, well, I don't need a router with Wi-Fi 6E then, but Dave has some ideas on that you should hear first. Dave, what are some of the benefits that Wi-Fi 6E routers provide if none of my devices are going to support it? Yeah. Well, where it really starts to matter is if you have a mesh network in your home. If it's just a router, then that's one device that's talking to all of your client devices and presumably they're just going to talk to that using whatever protocols they have. If you don't have any client devices with 6E and if you're an Apple user, which is the world I sort of come from, up until just hours ago, Apple didn't have any devices with 6E, but if you've just got a router, then there probably isn't a whole lot of 6E to do. However, if you have a mesh system, especially a mesh that is using what Wi-Fi for what we call backhaul, meaning the connection between your mesh access points that live around your house, well then the nice part is you could use, or your mesh could use 6E to communicate amongst your mesh points, and that means that it gets to do that in a uncongested scenario, an uncongested scenario. That can mean that your mesh points, and I've tested this and it makes a huge difference. I'm getting probably 30% more speeds between my mesh points using 6E, the 6GHz bandwidth, and it's I think partially because I don't have any 6GHz devices in my house that are cluttering that up so the mesh points can sort of talk without other things getting in the way. Makes a big difference. You have to get the right stuff though because not all mesh hardware is made the same. That might be a different conversation, maybe not. Yeah, I have Eero routers and when I upgraded to the new ones that added 6E it made a huge difference because I would run into this situation where because I have so many devices running on my Wi-Fi network, every once in a while they'd get in each other's way and get in the way of the Eero talking to itself. I'd have this method of like well let's just turn it off and turn it on again and then it'll be the new device on the network and it'll kick some other device off and that seemed to work. Once I got the 6E going, the backhaul and the increased capacity of 6E, you can just handle more devices, made that so I haven't run into that problem since I installed it. That's good to hear. The increased capacity would only matter once you have multiple 6E devices out there. The 6GHz band has support for up to 760MHz channels or 1480MHz channels whereas Wi-Fi 6 in the 5GHz range and thank goodness they're using numbers to make this super confusing for version names only had 160MHz channels. Even once you've got other 6E devices in your house, like when your new iPad Pro shows up with the camera on the left still, it's going to perhaps take a different channel. Your Wi-Fi backhaul with your Eros should remain pretty consistent. The only issue is as we increase the frequency, so we're going from 5GHz on the top end now to 6GHz on the top end, you do decrease range. This is just a function of physics. However, my testing with several of these units, I've tested the Eero, I've tested the TP-Link Deco, I've got the Plume 6E Super Pods on the way. The range I'm finding in a typical house scenario really isn't all that different for backhaul between the 5 and the 6 and like I said, I'm getting faster speeds with the 6. So even if technically the signal strength is less, the faster signaling of Wi-Fi 6E is taking advantage of it and getting me a better result in the end. That's interesting, yeah. I was looking to this with great interest because my apartment, I'm in a totally different building now, there's a lot more neighbors, a lot more units here, a lot more interference. So much interference in here. I was looking at the channels on my analyzer, it's like, oh great, there's like a thousand networks within me and within this like channel. This is a real problem. So I was looking for my own mesh solution. I didn't want to upgrade to 6 just yet. Looking at this, this seems like a great solution for the future because when everybody else is on 6 and I'll have 6E, that'll be a positive. I'll be able to have multiple access points. I had to get an access point just because there's so much glass and brick that interferes with the signal in this building. So between the interference and the actual materials that are in the way, it's ridiculous. So this, if I had a 6E connection between my access points, probably be a much stronger connection throughout the entire apartment. That would make sense. That's, yeah, you're in that scenario where unless what you have for building materials really gets in the way of your 6GHz connection, the fact that your neighbors probably don't have 6E yet is the benefit. So I'd get that sooner rather than later because eventually, we'll need to talk about Wi-Fi 7 and why that's going to be better. That's two years down the road. So the short version is if you're running into congestion and things having a problem on your Wi-Fi and you want to get a mesh network that does Wi-Fi 6E on the backhaul, not just Wi-Fi 6E support, but make sure it also does the backhaul that way, then you might see some benefit from that. Absolutely. Also, the other takeaway is we would like them to stop naming them numbers and take a cue from Apple and start doing Wi-Fi Bob and Wi-Fi Jim. Well, they used to, right? Because I mean, 6E is 802.11ax. We used to think that was confusing. Now, maybe not so much. I don't know, though. I think people prefer the simple number versus the 802.11 stuff. I get it, but I think in general, people found it confusing. But people think Wi-Fi 6E means 6 GHz, and it doesn't. Some people think that Wi-Fi 5E was 5G, which is the LTE stuff. That's all I'm saying. It's like that's all scurry. It should be Wi-Fi Dave, Wi-Fi IaaS, Wi-Fi Tom. Wi-Fi Tom. Yeah. Wi-Fi Tom. I want Wi-Fi Tom. That's what I want. That's the 2.4 GHz, probably. It's not up to me. Yeah, that too. No, if you start calling it names, then people are going to think the name person is responsible for maintaining their network. That's a problem. Which is what it would be. That's right. All right. Real quick before we're out of here, CCS Insight says that Apple might make a foldable tablet in 2024. We're not looking at foldable iPhones yet, but maybe a tablet, which, of course, mean that foldable tech hits the mainstream. If you want the cutting-edge form factor, though, think rollables. Oppo, TCL, and LG have all showed off various rollable devices, including televisions. LG made a big splash at 2019 CES with a rollable display on a TV. Now Lenovo is demonstrating a rollable Motorola smartphone and a laptop with a rollable display. The Motorola phone has a four-inch display, so easy to drop in a pocket until you click a button and then the frame just extends up and the screen unrolls to make it a 6.5-inch display. The Lenovo laptop has a typical landscape orientation that can extend the frame and unroll to become a square shape, better for maybe doing portrait videos instead of landscape. These are just concepts for now, but Dave, you into it? Sure. I like that stuff. I mean, why not? It's like new tech, fun, shiny. Sell it to me. I'm ready. Yeah, I'm kind of with you, Dave. Ayas, why do you hate it? Oh, I'll tell you why. Moving parts in my pocket. I don't really need that, okay? Because going from a 6.3 to a 6.5, I got a 6.7-inch phone here. I don't need it to do anything. I don't need moving parts in my phones right now. The laptop, though, that's very cool. Any more screen for actual work for that? I'm with you on the like, you better make sure that this part lasts for 10 years. I don't want my phone to jam at four inches and it can't unroll anymore. But I have 6.7-inch screen and I would love for it to get a little smaller when I drop it in a pocket. I'm just saying. Sounds pretty cool. I loved my iPad. Sorry, I do love my iPad mini. I also loved my iPhone 12 and 13 mini, and I'm bummed that I can't get an iPhone 14 mini. So if I can get an iPhone 15 foldable or an iPhone 16 foldable, I'm in. Yeah. All right. Well, thank you, Ayas, Aktar, for being with us today. Sarah will be back next week if anybody's wondering where she is. She's out for the week. Ayas, thanks for stepping in. What you got going on? I'll go to thisallnerd.com. I've got new episodes up. Actually, that's true. New episodes. The last episode I talked about was all the gear you take when you travel. And I highly suggest you get a travel router when you go anywhere. It's weird, but it's actually really awesome. So check out those episodes, thisallnerd.com. And those do captive portal and stuff now that they didn't used to do. It's so much better than it used to be. Dave Hamilton, thank you as well. Let's go. So great having you on. Thanks for having me. Yeah, you can find me at matkeekab.com. We're doing the show every week and I'm at Dave Hamilton on Twitter. So thanks again for having me. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. A pleasure. Tip of the hat to Allison Sheridan, who kind of got the ball rolling, made sure that that we got connected on that. So thanks to her as well. Indeed. Also, we got new bosses, huh? That's right. We're going to thank our brand new boss, Jesse, who just started backing us on Patreon. So thank you, Jesse, for backing us. And Dave, Jesse, Jesse, Jesse, Jesse, Jesse. Yesterday I said it could be you tomorrow. And Jesse said, you know what? It's going to be me. That's going to be the boss of the show tomorrow. Thank you, Jesse. It could be you tomorrow. Patreon.com slash DTNS. In fact, if you are a patron, stick around. The show continues as good day internet on Patreon. You can also catch the show live Monday through Friday, 4pm Eastern, 200 UTC. Find out more at dailytechnewshow.com slash live back tomorrow. Talking tilt five augmented reality gaming with Jerry Ellsworth. Scott Johnson will be here too. Talk to you then.