 Okay, we're back. We're live. It's a given Thursday at two o'clock. I'm Jay Fidel. This is Think Tech, and more specifically, this is Community Matters. And we have Shanoa Fonsworth of Blue Startups who wrote an article for the Star Advertiser. Was it not too long ago? And this led us to think, gee, what a great show this would be to talk to Shanoa. Shanoa is a great advocate for entrepreneurship and developing a diversified economy in Hawaii. Thank you for coming down to the show, Shanoa. Thanks for having me, Jay. Well, let's talk about the article. You know, what drove you to write it and what did you say in it that you would like people to, you know, to know about? Yeah, I think I wrote it primarily because people kept kind of asking me the question, well, what would you do? What would you do, you know, to diversify the economy? What would you do? So I thought that I would write down what I do, you know, if I were in charge, so to speak. And so that's why I wrote it. And it's been a great catalyst for a lot of dialogues. And so I'm glad I did and I'm glad the Star Advertiser picked it up. So, you know, it's been interesting. I basically outlined four steps to bringing more IP-based businesses here. If you don't know what I mean by that, IP is intellectual property. So any kind of business that's based on your brain power, essentially, is a fair game and can be ideally exported with the push of a button. So that includes technology, but it also includes things like content, media and music and a lot of other creative content right now that Hawaii is very good at. Things like that. So there's a whole range of things, you know, sustainability solutions. And we're working on a lot of these things already in Hawaii. So it's a matter of, I think, gaining some market share in those areas and putting some emphasis on those areas. So the four points were to continue to develop IP-based businesses in Hawaii. So that's kind of the work that Blue Startups and many other accelerators have done. Elemental accelerator and even mana up while they're producing products, it's based on a brand and branded products and brand is IP as well. So I think it all, it all kind of contributes through the development of IP businesses. But we can't just develop our own. I really believe strongly that we also need to import some new business concepts and ideas to Hawaii, things that might work well here and really think about how we do that strategically. Are there businesses that can grow and thrive here that are currently on the main line and would be open to moving their base operations to Hawaii? You know, developing a new company from scratch, trust me, takes a long time and is fraught with a lot of pitfalls along the way. So in order to kind of short circuit that process, I'm also proposing that we try to attract companies here. Along the same lines, we need to both grow our talent base here in knowledge work. So including, and like I said, the creative arts, engineering, coding, those types of talents, I think are really critical to our future. And again, attracting talent. You know, the COVID situation has been very good at showing us that anyone can do their work remotely just about, you know, especially knowledge workers, those that are using their brain for their work. So that I think, you know, combined with our wonderful lifestyle here in Hawaii creates an environment where we should be able to attract the best and brightest to our state. Right now we're in a situation where our best and brightest are leaving us. So those are kind of the core basics. And there's a lot more kind of in and around those. But that was kind of the basic outline of what I was proposing. That's a pretty powerful vision, in my view. On the other hand, you know, that vision started out with Jack Burns. Right? It's been refined. I know it really has. And even I feel like I've been working on it just about as long as the Jack Burns. And it's been 20 years, you know, so people look at me and say, how can you keep doing this? You know, how can you continue to be optimistic? I guess what's different about today, perhaps, I can, one can hope is that there's more pain in the market today than we've ever experienced before being entirely dependent on the tourism industry. You know, we've had bumps in the road in 9 11 and 2008. And, you know, those were hard times, but they weren't that kind of devastation that we're seeing today. So I hope that that kind of pain will be bad enough that will really spur us into some purposeful action and and really make us take another look at these issues and that we have been talking about forever. But we really haven't had the political will to address them in the past. And it's really now or never for Hawaii. Yeah, now and ever. I totally agree with that. But this may be a big now. Because this is a time when we have to fish or cut bait, we this is an inflection point for the state for in all ways in all ways. But but the economy is a critical way because the tourism business is not going to come back full, full, full tilt. It's going to be hampered. It's going to take a while. There'll be issues about people wanting to come to Hawaii. There'll be issues about restarting, you know, the basic tourism industry and all the accessory industries around it. They'll take a while and some of some of them won't come back. And and so now, you know, your vision, your view of a diversified industry has the possibility of real fruition. Maybe for the first time in 20 years anyway. And so it's a reimagination. I mean, that's what I get out of your article is a reimagination time. And we better do that or we'll be stuck with something that that will not sustain the state in the long term, where right now we have a $2 billion shortfall. Nobody knows how we're going to, you know, fill that hookah. We need to incentivize new businesses of all kinds. We need to have a more diversified economy. It's hate to use that term. There are people think that's an anthem of diversified economy. Oh, no, no, no, no. You know why? Because it costs money to diversify an economy. It's like you've got to write a check to have a diversified economy. But it needs investment. It needs it needs work. It needs midnight oil and all that. Oh, that's too hard. But this is the right time. So question, big question is, how do you get there? Here we are. It's June 4. They get that right? It's June 4. Yeah, how do we get there? What, what do we put the left foot out of the right foot? What do we do? You know, I mean, one of the things I mentioned in my article, I think is really still a resource that's been, I guess, not tapped to the extent that it could be and would not be a very expensive endeavor is the comma Ina network, you know, the Hawaii diaspora. I mean, we have leveraged that to some extent in blue startups through, you know, acquiring mentors and investors and, you know, people who care about Hawaii who don't live in Hawaii. And I think that we can marshal those forces almost immediately. You know, we did in the past have a comma Ina come home campaign. I think, you know, it lasted a couple months or something, but, you know, it would need to be a concerted sustained effort. But I get contacted every day by comma Ina who want to come home, who are working in the knowledge industries, in innovation, in technology, in healthcare and biotech, and all of these areas that are well paying, good, you know, intellectually stimulating jobs, and they don't feel like they can come home, right, because there's not going to be a job for them here. So how do we create an on ramp for them to come home? You know, what does that look like? Because that is a base of talent. I think that's just waiting for an excuse to come back. So and some of those guys, not just the individuals, but some of those guys own companies. So how do we start with them and say, What would it take to move your company back to Hawaii? Because they're not enemies that are more personal. And you know, they are quicker to get on board with it. I can't tell you how many people have reached out from you from outside the state, who have said, I really, I am all for this vision. How can I help? How can I help? You know, right now, it's hard for me to say, How can you help? If we had a program for that, you know, in a more organized fashion, where you can say, Here are the ways that you can start to engage back with the Hawaii economy. You know, here's the on ramp. I think that that's a great place to start. And wouldn't be very expensive. One thing comes to mind, it's back. This is back in the early 2000s. When we we did have a certain number of come in coming back. And I was on the board at HTDC, and was something called Pau Hana. It was kind of a misnomer, but it involved a lot of beer. And, and, and, and Bossard, who was the executive director would, he would try to get the returning returning comma Ina, who had had experience in the tech industry to come around and to schmooze and network with, you know, anybody else who was associated with HTDC. And, and so that was a really good idea, but it strikes me actually, that that is doable with zoom right now, easier. And we can connect with them on the mainland. We could connect with them wherever they are in groups. And we could have a social life and business experience with them that we could pitch the same idea. Yeah, yeah, I mean, there's, there's a group. It's a little bit different, but a group I looked at for a long time called the C 100, which is a group of Canadian expats who have the mission of helping Canadian entrepreneurs. So, you know, they're living in Silicon Valley or what have you, but their whole, you know, job and the mission of the whole organization is to help fellow Canadian entrepreneurs get a leg up on the competition. And like I said, I think our Hawaiian diaspora would love to do that. They would love to help however they can. But we have just haven't given them any opportunity to help. And I really think that the talent is the issue, right, that we were struggling with people focus on capital a lot. And capital is important, but capital follows talent. And so if we attract the talent, the capital will follow, you know, and so I think we really need to rethink what are the levers here that will make a difference? Well, I think a part of attracting the talent or holding the talent, you know, we talked about you heroes recent report that if the economy sinks, as it might very well do is doing, then, you know, we're going to lose talent, we're going to lose 25 to 30,000 young talented people who are going to leave town for a life on the mainland, where the economy may be more promising. But you know, what strikes me, though, is that we have to throw aside some of the roadblocks that Hawaii is famous for. For example, making it hard to do business for over regulating, making people wait on permits and permissions. Before we ever get to the question of capital, capital infusion, if you want to encourage somebody to start a business, even a small business, how much space does a tech company require? Not much. And these days with the invention and discovery of Zoom, even less. And I'll tell you something, the downtown office buildings are going to be, you know, reducing their rates now, because nobody wants office space when they can use Zoom. So I mean, there'll be plenty of opportunities, but you know, we have to we have to remove the obstacles, both in terms of governmental obstruction, I'll use that term advisedly. And the cost of the cost of space, yeah, also also the labor issue, you know, the Department of Labor and all the rules about labor and other very hard to hire people, very hard to give them a life. And so we have to throw those things aside. How do you do that? You have to go to the legislature for that? Yeah, I mean, there have been attempts at that in the past. And you know, I've got sure, again, they were not sustained efforts. And, you know, this part of the problem is we, like most governments, you know, our state government has has an issue with sustaining anything over a period of time. We did have for a period of time, a permit czar at D-bed, I don't know if you remember that. And his whole job was to clear the path for folks. I don't know how successful that was, but it was a start, you know, at least we were paying attention to the problem, you know, which was that that things get stuck here for years. I mean, you know, our dear friend, Bill Spencer, right, a good example of an entrepreneur who just got totally stuck in a regulatory and permitting process for his company, which was an aquaculture company. And it took him 10 years to get the permits thing. And no, no, no, no business can survive 10 years without actually being in business because you're still waiting for permits and such. So, well, we're really not good at being groundbreakers with new types of businesses. But even our mainstay small businesses were not very good at that. I mentioned to you, you know, I got a lot of comments on my article, one of them was from a gentleman who owns a small business here who said, it took me a year to get, you know, approval for a sign change outside of my my business a year. You know, he's a small business owner that's hurting his business every day. He doesn't have a sign outside. So, you know, we absolutely have to address that issue. And unfortunately, that is a government issue, and the government would have to support an effort to kind of clear the path. But it's very doable. I mean, if you look at other economies that have done well at this, let's say Singapore, for example, right, has really just tried to make at every turn the, you know, starting a business there are easy, the regulatory issues, they're easy, you know, and there are many other examples like that, where a concerted effort was made to do that. Yeah. So, you know, part of that is regulatory, part of that is legislative, I think. Part of that is the people, you know, without getting into the cultural aspects of it, we have done a real job on astronomy in this state. And, you know, I mean, if I were an investor, or if I would somebody interested in becoming a world class astronomer, I would, I would not consider Hawaii to be the top of the line right now, simply because there's no, there's no, we want to call it a encouragement here. In fact, it's the other way around. And that goes for a lot of things. Yeah, which is really, really sad, because actually astronomy, again, is one of those areas where we have a natural advantage, you know, but we're doing our best to kill that natural advantage, right? We're doing our best. You know, same thing with aquaculture, actually, you know, Bill ran into cultural issues there. And yes, I think you know, those are tricky areas, obviously. And I wish that there were progress that could be made without, you know, having impact on culture and tradition and history. So, you know, maybe it has to be other things, but there are definitely businesses that do not have an impact like that, which is another reason why I'm still a big fan of the tech space. It has a very low environmental impact and a very high economic value. There's really nothing else like it in that equation. So, you know, the end goal of getting jobs that can afford people the opportunity to live here with, let's say, just one job instead of two or three, you know, that should be the goal. And there's very few industries that pay as well as technology today. And another point I made in the article is that training in that industry is readily available and easily gotten. And that's another thing that we could do. I think that's relatively low cost. I mean, you're familiar with Dev League, for example, which is a coding academy. They run six-week programs and teach you to code. In my opinion, and I told Governor this, just make it free for Hawaii citizens. What a great idea. How much would it cost you? A couple million dollars? I mean, it's also the nod. But what it's saying is leadership. It's saying we care about this and we're putting our money where our mouth is. And this is a state initiative. And you know what that means to somebody? It means, hey, the state really wants us to do this. The state is willing to back us. The state is willing to spend some money on us. And it will do that again. You know, it's the point of the spear, so to speak, but it means the state is going to do other stuff for us. That's so important to send a message like that. Yeah, but I think there's so many educational opportunities for young people that are, again, relatively inexpensive. And if we can incentivize our young people to stay home and, let's say, if you're getting an engineering degree at New Age, your tuition is subsidized because we need that kind of technology talent. There you go. You know, things like that, I think, again, relatively low cost, huge impact. Huge impact. Yeah. They want to feel like they're their favorite citizens. Now there are those who oppose this sort of thing. I know. Their response as it was in the day of Act 221, the Tax Incentive, why are you favoring these young spoiled whippersnappers? What about us older people are, you know, deep into, comma, Inaland? Why don't you spend the money on us? And that's a real problem, because what that means, what that says, is that we don't really care about the future of the state. We're not willing to let you spend state money on the future. We want it to be just like it was in the old day, which is really not a good way to look at things. So you're really talking also, aren't you, Shinoa, about trying to make people understand that this is a good thing. Every man, woman, and child should understand this is a good thing. Yeah. And I think it is really it is really too bad when people have to pit, let's say, one industry against another, right? And my whole thing is we need to do all of those things. We need diversified ag. Yes. We need to have our own food. Yes. We need all of those things. So I'm not saying we shouldn't be doing that and we should only be doing this. This is, this is, you know, my kuleana, right? This is what I know, and this is what I think would help. Will it change everything? No. We need to do a lot of things, right, to move in a certain direction. But the good thing about Hawaii, good and bad, is it's very small. And you know, what I keep telling people is, hey, if we had 10 strong tech employers here, you know, new companies that we're hiring, it would make a difference for us. It would move the needle for us. So it doesn't take a lot. We don't have to be Silicon Valley. We don't want to be Silicon Valley, right? We want to be right-sized for Hawaii. We want to do the right things for Hawaii. And, and I think a lot of people look at something like Silicon Valley go, I don't want that. And thanks. Like, no, of course you don't. But we only have a million plus people living here. It's never going to be that, first of all, you know. And secondly, it doesn't take much for us to really move that needle and create some new employment opportunities that are well-paying and meaningful for our young people. And that's, I'm sure, you know, the truth is that we'll be mostly the young people that benefit from that. But if we continue to lose our young people, we will have no future at all. You know? And this is one of the other things we've been talking a lot to corporate Hawaii lately about supporting these efforts. And I'll say the good news, Jay, and you know this conversation has been going on for a long, long time. But I do think the good news, again, is that there is starting to be movement there. There's starting to be progress there. And more buy-in from Bishop Street. And you, thankfully, because, believe me, the writing's on the wall for those guys too, right, is everything declines so do their businesses. They also need new legs of the economic stool to sustain their banks and insurance companies and everything else, right? So, but I do think they're starting to get it and they're starting to engage with us. And that's a big difference from, you know, let's say a decade ago. Yeah, they could be more helpful than the ledge in their own way because they can be up close and personal with the entrepreneurs and the, you know, the workers, the tech workers. But let me, let me offer a thought, you know, back in the day, and I don't think this exists today. In fact, it exists a lot less today that I know of. There were these physical incubators. There were a number of them around town. And then there was MIC Minoa Innovation Center for a long time, 25 years, as a matter of fact. And we don't have that today. Not that I know where you can go and be shoulder to shoulder. There's some small amount of that, the HDDC thing on the Japson campus, but it's a small amount of space. Suppose we took advantage of the fact that there's a lot of empty space downtown and there will be more empty space downtown because, you know, the nationals are going to realize they don't need that much space with Zoom and the new prospects with remote communication. So they could offer, they could take these large offices, cut them into smaller spaces, and they could have shoulder to shoulder with these IT workers. You know that, to me, the definition of an IT industry is simple. It's when you can quit your job in the morning and get another one in the afternoon in the same industry. That's good solid competition, it leverages up. So to me, one of the problems is we could probably be better off if we had some kind of incubator accelerator of physical space with a rent would be cheap. That's another incentive and you'd be next to somebody who is doing like work and you would have an industry growing in a specified space. I believe it's time for that and I think it's probably a good business deal for the owner of an office building right now, the way it is right now. Well, I think there's a lot of co-working spaces, right, which is similar. I have a different proposal and a different take on it, which again, I get a lot of criticism for this one too. But you know, it would be a housing form. You bet. Because, you know, if you go to San Francisco, there's now a whole crop of these, they call them startup houses. And it's, it's like, if you remember the show, you know, Real World MTV, it's, you know, you put all these kids in a house and they're all, they're all working in technology or related fields. And then, you know, synergies happen and, you know, they're, they feel like I'm not the only one doing this, which is really important in Hawaii because, trust me, our tech entrepreneurs right now feel like they're the only ones doing this. And, you know, there's a, there's a community building aspect and you're then, you feel part of something you're less likely to leave, you know. And so again, a cheap fix. And I've told the county this, the mayor this, bias some, you know, an apartment building and have that dedicated to tech, to tech and knowledge and innovation, entrepreneurs, whatever you want to do and have that rent be subsidized because that creates a magnet, you know, and a community. And that's what we need. Yeah, this reminds me of one of those condo buildings down in Kakaako is dedicated to artists. The thing was designed and conceived for the benefit of artists. And in fact, you can't buy one of those condos. I don't think you can even live in the building unless you're an artist. They could do the same thing for technology. And I, as an investor, say, I buy one of these condo buildings, apartments. And then I rent it. And the idea is I rent it to some technology company, to people, employees, staff who live there. And maybe they work there too. Maybe it's a mixed use building. Yeah. Well, in the startup houses, you know, it's like you live there and you also have, they have programming there. So, you know, they have weekly talks with an expert on, you know, this, that, and other things. So there's a learning aspect. And like I said, a community building aspect. So it's more than just housing. But, you know, at least you feel like the people in the hallway and in the elevator, you might have something in common with them. And you're not the only. Exactly. You know, when I was doing my radio show for HPR years ago, I had a family of Robert Olsen on a number of times. And he was the founder of the New Fit Simmons, which is a big biotech facility in an old building that was an army hospital. Looked just like Tripler, you know, pink and all the same thing. And he on behalf of, I guess, the state of Colorado knows it was the, it was the Department of Commerce, the United States Department of Commerce, turned this into a biotech park. Okay. And they would rent space to big pharma. And his job was to attract the big pharma to come there and take the space. And how did he do it? I asked him. And he gave it to me in detail. He said, he got them to come there with food. That's a food. What is it with food? He said, what he would do is he would have these meetings of all the researchers from the pharma companies. Then they would come in the morning, they would have a big breakfast together. It was, it was a discounted breakfast. And what would they do with the breakfast? They would talk about biotech, you know, off the record. They wouldn't go paranoid about infringements and the like. And they would talk about their research. Researchers and tech people like nothing more, you know, than to talk about their work and to rub shoulders and to compare notes and all that. And all around food. And Olson said many times that was the reason that he could do it. It was about food and with about, you know, joining together, coming together and collaborating on it. I hope we're past COVID soon so we can do that sort of thing. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But trust me, if you offered engineers from San Francisco, you know, a nice cheaper than what they're paying right now in San Francisco, a place to live in Hawaii, they'll come in droves, you know, and from there we build. Yeah. We have to have the structures where they can get the work or they can get, you know, either the... And if you start with remote work, you know, I, I, I work for Facebook, but I'm moving to Hawaii because they've got this awesome housing deal. Guess what? Next day is down in the cafeteria talking to the guy who lives in 4B and they're starting a new company. And that, that company's going to start here. That's a wonderful vision, you know what? I mean, I have every... So I was going to ask you what is, you know, physically, you know, by the metrics, by the way things are organized, what is, what would you like to see say in five years? In an ideal sense, how should this, would this, could this unfold to make you as happy as you've ever been? As happy as I've ever... Well, I, I think it would start with education issues, which again, I think are relatively easy fix, right? Not easy, but not expensive. We're not talking about billions of dollars here, right? To subsidize some education, opportunities for our young people and try to keep them here and keep them in these fields. And then I think the housing issue as well, if we address that head-on, and that's something very tactical and doable. And we threw out that whole, both of those opportunities, education and housing to our comma, Aina, that are all over the world. I think we can get them home and we can build those 10 strong IP based companies that are employing people and paying well and giving our young people an opportunity to exercise that brain muscle, you know, while doing it. Also, kind of make it a plank for everybody who's running for office, everybody. Yeah. Yeah. And ideally, I'll add to that since we're being idealistic now, every single one of those companies is solving one of the world's big problems with regards to sustainability or climate change or environment, because that's probably what we should all be working on right now. Yeah. Yeah. And that would make Hawaii magnetic in many ways. And we've got to start on that. We've got a reputation already in that area. We need to just keep growing it. Yeah. You've got to keep doing what you're doing. And I think we should we should unpack all these possibilities and steps you articulated and do other shows on them one by one and keep turning the pot, so to speak. Yeah. Yeah. Well, hopefully somebody's listening. They will. They will. But just, you know, they say a repetition is the mother of study. And if you want to get some idea out there in the community, you have to repeat it. Well, we've been repeating this one for a while. Don't stop now. Yeah. Okay. Chanoa Fonsworth, who startups doing a great job to try to get us past our present set of crises and hopefully reimagine our economy for the benefit everybody in the state and for the state as a whole. Thank you so much, Chanoa. All right. Thank you. Talk soon.