 Hello my friends. This is the 86th episode of Patterson in Pursuit. It's gonna be part one of another two-part discussion I had with TK Coleman about race TK has been on the show several times before in the past talking about race with me But I feel like all of those conversations were preface. We're kind of laying the foundation for this epic Conversation we cover a ton of different topics from race and politics to race and culture all under the general idea of talking about the concept of color blindness So is color blindness a real thing that people can be? There seems to be two general camps. There's a big camp of people who say yes color blindness is a real thing And I'm colorblind race isn't an issue There's another seems to be another camp of people which says if you think color blindness is a real thing you're naive There's no such thing as color blindness turns out as we get to in part two of our conversation That may have something to do with our usage of the term It may be possible to both see and acknowledge and judge Racial differences among groups while remaining colorblind depending on what you mean by the term Another sticky topic that we talk about is if part of racism is that the racist looks within and doesn't see any Racism he's blind to his own racism Then how can that person? Figure out that he's a racist if something like the concept of white supremacy is so tightly fused to the eyes of individuals Is it worthwhile to try to point it out to them? Is it worthwhile to try to investigate to see if you have it? We also talk about this balance of the individual and the community So for example my wife and I are really entertaining the possibility of moving to Japan because we really like Japanese culture And we don't really like a lot of parts of American culture. There's some good parts and some parts We don't really like is that desire that my wife and I have to be in a Japanese community Is that a version of racism? How does it square with a philosophy of rabid individualism that says I only am going to see and judge people based on their Individual differences and not their group Identity, how can you at one time acknowledge group differences and evaluate people as individuals at the same time So if that sounds like it's a conversation worth having and something you want to listen to these are two Fantastic episodes TK Coleman is the education director at Praxis And he yet again was very generous with his time as I blasted through all the hard deadlines that we set So that we could continue this fantastic conversation. I hope you guys really enjoy it It'll be fun, you know, it's funny and I don't know if this is something for us to get on recording or not but you know, it's a You and I don't make our our living talking about this right right neither one of us has even endeavored to publish a book on race or to make a lot of content about it and for most of my life, it's It's always just kind of been a thing that yeah, you think about it You know, you have conversations with people you know about it But I never have had any and still don't have any dreams of being like the go-to guy on on race And I don't think you and I have much public material We put out there where we share ideas on it from these conversations. We have but uh, it's it's been personally enlightening it's challenging for me because This is maybe an aspect of my belief system that has perhaps the greatest potential to offend the greatest potential to alienate And that's good for your character To practice talking about those kinds of beliefs out loud But then it also challenges me to think about what I do regard to be an important issue from a variety of different angles So I thank you for inviting me to participate in these conversations because it's stimulated my interest more and it's leading me down a path where I'm I'm excited to learn and talk about it more. Well, hey, I mean you're creating value for everybody But you're especially creating value for me So I appreciate you you know coming on the show and talking about it and I'm with you This is not something you know, I've released some things about individualism and how you know race and individualism But it's like an article. I think I've I've written maybe two So but so we're you and I aren't actively creating a bunch of content in this area But it's this topic that especially in the States is always under the surface, you know, it's constantly there It's constantly in the news. It's this taboo issue where it's like, yeah You can have conversations about with race with your friends But it gets especially a dicey if your friends are of a different race and it's like it's this there There's all this negative tension around the topic, which I think is awful and it's counterproductive I think it leads to all kinds of tension that doesn't need to be there So I'm I'm just stoked that we can have like a free and open conversation about this being people of two races This is like best case scenario Yeah, and I'm okay with the tension. I think I think it's important to in order to do good philosophy I think it's important to liberate conversations from the need to make sure no one's feelings get her for sure To make sure, you know, like I think sometimes we work a little bit too hard at and making sure we duck and dodge and Speak in such a proper prim manner There's one one poet who put it this way. She refers to such people as tight-faced poets You know people who speak as if they're holding back a sneeze, you know I Think there's something to be said to about putting it out there not being afraid of a little stress a little tension and in every Meaningful relationship where you actually achieve progress and communication. There's there's some discomfort. So that's good I couldn't agree more and I I'm I can already predict the future that I know There's a bunch of haters out there who don't like the work that I'm doing and they're gonna jump on any Opportunity to paint me as a bad person. So I say anything that could remotely be constructed Oh look Steve's a bad person. Oh look Steve has races and tensions. I know it's going to come up in this conversation There's nothing nothing I can do about it. Nothing we can do about it It's like all right bring it on if that's if that's the price to pay to have these conversations and try to get at the truth You know, that's the price you gotta pay Yeah, man, and you know, I'm a big proponent of not only freedom of speech but freedom of silence, right? I mean people for a very long time have been making decisions about which beliefs They want to talk about in public and which ones they want to keep to themselves and their families and their inner circles And so if if you come out here into the public space and you say something that you would like to be heard Then you should be psychologically prepared for the experience of some people disagreeing some people not Liking what you have to say and I think that's an important reminder during this time because we have a lot of different people Who are making the prospect of what your life can become if you become a thought leader on this topic? A lot of those people are inspiring others to come forward and be a little bit more bold with your beliefs But the thing you got to remember about your favorite thought leaders and about your heroes is that they're ready for that fire They're ready for that heat that's gonna come at them And if you're not ready for that heat you don't have to come out and say what you believe You don't have to write that Facebook status, but we're no victims for for having people You know express their peace about what we say because we're choosing to be right well Let's put it out there. So I was telling you before we started We've had a few conversations on race now and like I Like to tell guests before they come on Patterson pursuit the interviews last about an hour But there's always a special exception with TK Coleman because I think it's gonna last I know it's not gonna last an hour this time I would like to say okay, we're gonna talk about these things and get them done in time but there's no way we are and This is probably already gonna be two episodes. So I'll just say hey tune in next week Part 2 take a Coleman about these topics. Yeah, even though we didn't schedule it, but I Felt like the we've already had a few conversations on race and I feel like the preface Like we we were just getting going and then people don't know this But at the end of last time we talked about race We continued the conversation, but I had recording issues. I don't know if you remember this I had recording issues were only recorded one side of our audio I don't know if it's yours or mine and so there was a whole awesome other segment that was totally left out It's like a solid hour. So it was about a Colorblindness this concept of colorblindness and racism and a little bit of discrimination and what you could call statistical Discrimination and it was like it was like the crescendo of the multiple part Series that we've had on this topic. So I want to go back to that topic because I feel like that's where The the the net of the the the tangle of all the disagreements lie So so yeah If I may I would like to do a mini preface Yeah for those who are just tuning in to our ongoing discussion now You haven't listened to the fire episodes or Even if you have just as a way of contextualizing pretty much everything that I'll be I'll be saying in this discussion Let me tell you what I think is the the unifying characteristic of most discussions on race Regardless of how people come at it and and how I differ from that So I think the central issue of contemporary discussions on race is white supremacy Whether you believe it exists or not whether you think it's a problem or not There are three basic questions that everyone is reacting to and that is number one. Does white supremacy exist? number two is it possible to Substantiate claims that white supremacy played a role in particular instances of Wrongdoing or or harm being caused right that's usually what's going on people say that was racist and number three is What moral response should we have to how we answer those two questions now different people answer those in different ways So you may have the the anti-racist who say yes, white supremacy does exist Yes, we can't substantiate where it's causing harm and our moral responsibilities should be this maybe it's reparation Maybe it's why people need to take responsibility for acknowledging their privilege and so forth Even the race realists would be an example of someone who answer these questions in in the affirmative So you listen to someone like Jared Taylor, Richard Spencer, they will say things like yeah white supremacy You know or maybe like white privilege does exist and it's a good thing and we should try to expand it and our more responsibility is not necessarily to try to uplift black people but to Acknowledge and perhaps cultivate a consciousness of our own identity and protect our own interests and so forth and defend our right to do it And then you may have others who say no white supremacy doesn't exist And the race war is the problem and if you want to deal with race stop talking about it right that may be more like a Larry Elder type approach to it, but all of them agree on Those three questions as being the important ones to have a reaction to and an informed opinion about and and for them That's the starting point for me. That's starting point I do not believe that white supremacy is the starting point for a discussion on race I believe if you want to get to the bottom of any kind of evil and I suppose I suppose we're talking about Racism because there's a general consensus that racism is evil If you want to get to the bottom of evil, then I think you have to start at the root I think you have to start at the foundation and that is authoritarianism I believe that authoritarianism is the cause of all evil and if I may if I may use a biblical example um, if you if you look at the the Christian Judeo Christian creation account where God creates humankind the first thing God says is let us make man and our likeness in our image And he will subdue the earth and exercise dominion over it, right? And so there's this Christian idea that as human beings we were created for mastery We were created to exercise dominion not over each other, but over the earth, right? That mastery personal mastery is is a central theme and that we exercise our authority our God likeness By exercising by by demonstrating dominion in the area of our gifting so well for one person Maybe that's the piano another person that's philosophy for another person that's serving people or this or that way But that's how human greatness is realized and that is how glory is brought to God when we are our best selves well in the Christian notion of sin Sin is a perversion of that which is good, right? Well, what is the perversion of that concept? What is the perversion of personal mastery? What is the perversion of exercising authority and dominion over the earth through the creative expressions of your gifts and the service towards humanity? The perversion of that is the domination of one another our desire to Exercise mastery over each other to exercise authority over each other to claim legitimacy to the right to rule I would contend that is the most fundamental kind of perversion It is the most pernicious kind of evil and all other forms of evil are rooted in it So that doesn't mean we cannot have conversations about white supremacy and racism because we're going to do that here So these things are not mutually exclusive but as a starting point one of those things is rooted in the other and Authoritarianism is the foundation in which all things are rooted So if you really want to fight evil you've got to deal with that demon and I think that's less PC I think that's less safe I think if you want an easy career in the talking about race game I say two things you should do is either one start telling black people to pull up their pants and quit committing crimes and take personal responsibility for their actions or You know go around trying to get why people to admit that they're privileged I think that that's easy because even though you'll make a lot of people mad by doing that You already have a built-in audience of people that will love you and finance you but what both of those sides agree on is the legitimacy of Using a monopoly on violence to get the other group to fulfill their agendas and live the way they want them to live By force So we don't have to have a full-blown discussion on my political atheism or my my anarchist views But I want to set that forth as the the conceptual framework From within which I see these things and I think that's a starting point I have this urge to say amen and like If you're gonna pass around a collection plate man, I'll put money in like where it wins the church of TK Be a thing because that was right on right on point So now the interesting question is if I wasn't black with would you have responded to me as if as if I resound and like a preacher? I'm just kidding All right, so okay Well, there's a lot there and I'm sure that's gonna come up through the throughout the course of the conversation And I agree with pretty pretty much all of that That really if you are trying to identify the problem and I don't even necessarily like calling it evil Because I'm not sure what that means, but if you really want to identify the problem looking at Monopolies of violence looking at governments looking at Individuals forcibly inflicting their will on other people by force of law. I think that is more often than not the culprit Yeah, and you are my ally to the degree that You are useful to my agenda to undermine authoritarianism and you advocate non authoritarian approaches to human advancement So I'm all for making black people's lives better I'm all for everybody making everybody's lives better, but you are my ally to that degree, you know, I think about the movie Get out and this is a spoiler alert, but you should have seen the movie by now at this point There's a moment in the film where the black guy and the white girlfriend there They're pulled over By a white cop now the white girlfriend was the one I was driving, right? So he pulls her over and he wants to see the black guy's license and and and the you know the implication here is that the cop is is being you know, he's fitting that's that racist stereotype and You know, he's just playing it like whatever or whatever, you know, like and he gives him his license and so forth And and that moment happens And something comes up and the cop decides to let them go. Okay, whatever At the end of the movie The person who literally tries to hijack the black guy's body turns out to be a man that is literally blind Okay, and at one point the two are having a conversation the black guy says why us Like why y'all doing this to us? And he says don't don't lump me in with the rest of them Okay, he says I'm not like them. I don't even see color and he was absolutely right He's like, I don't even see come, you know, because I just want your eyes I want I want those things that you see through, you know, I just want a chance to see again and and and the irony of that moment was that This guy who was colorblind Okay, as well as the guy who said I would Vote for Obama for a third time if I could those were the most dangerous people in his life and they loved black people Really loved black people man. So, you know, I don't really care how much you love black people or any other kind of people About your approach to doing people good I think that's where all the interesting conversations lie And I may and I may be pushing us, you know in a direction that gets at those kinds of things as we talk so one of the things I found really valuable and Thought-provoking from the last conversations was this distinction between kind of your personal thoughts about an individual Versus your actions towards them. It's like I don't really care what you were saying I don't really care what your thoughts thoughts are on race Like I care about how you treat me in life. So what I want to do is go down that Road and talk about actions. Let's first give an example that isn't controversial and then we'll make it controversial. So when I Am looking at the world and my wife and I are deciding where do I want to live? We're actually really tempted to go to Japan and our travels We went to Japan and we absolutely loved it and the reason we loved it is because of the culture of Japan Absolutely loved the culture. So when I was over there in Japan I would I would say all kinds of true statements like on average your average Japanese person is going to be treating me better Treating me with more respect and I them then your average American Right. So in general, I'm living in Charleston right now. I've lived a few places on the East Coast I prefer the behavior of People living in Japan to people living in the United States on average You like Japanese people. I like Japanese people. You could say that right? Now not controversial However, if we say if we if we abstract away and we were to put different races in there That would essentially be I would be compared to Hitler if I were to say something like oh well I like Japanese people for these reasons, but black people or Hispanic people because of the actions I see from you know group averages I Prefer not to be around them. Somebody were to say that that is heresy now. I want to know What's the difference between the two if the one is reasonable in theory? Could the others be reasonable in theory and why? Why can't we why can't we talk about this? Like calmly and I don't mean we we I mean the royal we if I'm understanding correctly Is this similar to? Sam Harris's frustration What he's saying hey? Why can't we just have certain conversations? That perhaps have racial implication, but we're trying to be scientific here And I'll be the first to admit that maybe some facts might make me feel sad but can we have a conversation about Racial observations without Me being called racist for that That would be close to it or it would be something like I would add It would be silly in the Japanese example to say oh You Steve you like Japanese people because they're Japanese because they have the genetics of like something Inherent in their skin or whatever it is you you're like a That it has something to do with racial superiority of the Japanese race Which is a position people have and in fact historically a lot of Japanese people in particular had the position that Literally inherent to their race is some kind of fundamental superiority I don't I don't like that but If I were to say anything Similar about cultures in the United States It's suddenly seen as being like this bad judgment I'm making about all people of a particular race to say oh in general I have more in common with your average white guy than your average black guy. That's now the exact same Like moral level of evil is saying Black people are inferior and I like white people more than black people something like that which is which is of course not correct Yeah, so first I think there's a little nuance we can add to both situations to kind of I think make it a little bit fair First there are some places you can go Where if you're around the right group of people and you say what you just said about loving being around the Japanese more than them You would sound racist to them. Would you agree with that? Definitely Yeah, it's just that right now. You're saying that in a context where the people around you Don't have anything going on. Don't have any historical baggage going on with any Comparisons being made between them and the Japanese It is also true That you can go to just about any race of people with the exception of whites and we'll come to that in a moment in this country and Say positive things about them and no one will be upset at you You can go to a black church and you could say man I love coming to the black church because y'all really know how to praise the Lord like they'll love that I'm like, oh I come on in Steve You can you can go hang around the Native Americans and you can be like you guys really get it You know like I mean I'm white and I hang around all my white friends but you guys know how to take the conversation to another level whatever it may be and people will genuinely feel good about that so No, no group has a hard time being thought of in a positive way and and racism is rarely understood as Thinking of a group in a of another of one one group in a positive way Unless it's expressed in a manner that makes someone else feel like feel like it's at our our expense Okay, so the one group that you probably couldn't say this about in America is white people because you will be heard as someone that is Saying white people are better than black people and everybody else, right and that's because just historically Right. There's a lot of baggage in this country that all of us have around that particular thing, right? It doesn't come out of a vacuum. It's not like, you know, we're just having an all-things being equal conversation. So I I struggle with this Approach to to analyzing this issue with that with a mindset that's kind of like hey Um, is it racist if I do this is this racist? Is this racist this racist, you know Because once you know so we can lock those conditions in and now do I get the right to call you racist? If you make this kind of joke, I get the right to call you racist, right and it reflects this attitude where We we look at the our word as this political weapon and whoever gets to be the one to hold the political weapon And use it against the others. That's the one that's got the power, right and and I understand that, you know, um John McWhorter says that Calling someone a racist is kind of like calling them a pedophile. It's a career killer It's a reputation ruiner and so you have a lot of people that are anxious and defensive about being called a racist They've got some things they want to say. They've got some things. They want to talk about And maybe their intentions are sincere, but but they're afraid that someone else is gonna say you're racist What was the school? Ah Was it gosh? It was the professor the courtyard incident where you have the black students Talking to the aw man Is it was a Stanford shoot? I forget. Yeah, it was Yale Yale University there was a moment where The the white guy was was was was he was trying to defend himself and trying to explain himself And he said I'm not being racist and one of the black students said to him That's not how it works We tell you if you're being right, right? And and I think that captures The white burden right that captures the fear of white people that want to have conversations about certain things, you know That fear of like who gets to call who were racist you want to say yes Yes, so I want this is this is exactly one of the issues here is really what has happened to the word Racist because when I when I learned about this word in grade school it was always in the context of racism is something akin to the belief in the inherent superiority or inferiority of a particular group of people based on their race and It was very often tied to people like Hitler like the The most racist of racists who thought this is an inferior jews are an inferior race of people and they need to be exterminated so on The one hand that's got growing up. That's what I think of as racist I think a lot of people think maybe a lot of white people think of that as being racist as a positive belief in the inherent superior superiority or inferior races and Then it has become watered down from that definition to something like talking making any judgment about Racial stereotypes or making any judgment calls about Groups whatsoever positive or negative and so so now people are afraid of saying well So they say like people like me. I would say look I see all kinds of differences between racial groups. Yes on average Yes, those exist, but Just saying that doesn't mean that I have a belief in the inherent Biological superiority or an inferiority of races. So if we're saying that it's okay to Acknowledge what is kind of self-evident that there are at least differences among races and then you can have different evaluations of those differences among races Then it seems like such a like an objectively Bad thing to tie that in with the big R word Like when did that happen? When did that shift happen? You think this is a political shift that this is something that there's power to the word So now if we call you a racist like you said, it's like well It's like you're a pedophile and so if you get if that label sticks It's gonna ruin your career like can we agree at least that like there are two At the very least there's the big racism Which is the one the one about racial inferiority and superiority and then there's all like these other smaller more irrelevant types of racism or race acknowledgement or like seeing that race is a real thing in the world Kind of blended several questions in there together Yeah, so first To go back to something that I said earlier when I talked about most white supremacy starting point If you listen to somebody like mark lima hill for instance, he'll tell you that white supremacy is Not limited to a consciously held belief in the superiority of whites And I'll also tell you that white people don't have a monopoly on white supremacy Right that white supremacy is an ideological virus that's infected the thinking the minds of many people including black people There are black people who hate their blackness. There are black people who are shamed about of them themselves being black Because they have been infected by white supremacy. Okay. Um, there are people who Um may wish they were white or may want to be white. Okay. Um, so it's not it's not just a matter of racism is You are consciously thinking to yourself. I hate people who are not white. Okay. Um, according to this view It's possible to be racist if you, um Treat people In in in a less charitable way or if you treat people in a harmful way Not necessarily because you're thinking at that time, you know, um, they're not white But maybe because you don't have the same respect for them at a level that you've just kind of like It does not immediately say that we're gonna we're gonna lump together in the same category The big are with these other forms of of racism like the the big Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, so so let's get to that One of the things we talked about in an earlier conversation is The problem that I have with this cartoonish comic bookish depiction of what it means to be a racist And I have a problem with this not because I think we need to be nice to the racist and win them on our side But because I think there's something very significant to getting to the root of the problem That's consistently overlooked when we talk about people that we call racist and that is There are no racist who think of themselves as racist Okay, um Racists always believe themselves to be on the right side of a logical argument That doesn't mean that they're all good spokespeople for their view That doesn't mean they can all beat you in an argument or that they will all argue fairly with you But you show me any example that you take to be racism And I will show you something that underneath the surface Is a lot deeper than someone getting up in the morning and saying I'm gonna find a way to bring the black people down No, there's something deeper there And that is there is a belief That that this is a rational thing to do that this is a right thing to do so when when people react And this is this is also why I think it's important to have the conversation Not debating the dictionary not getting into a war that says well, well, why can't I use that word? I mean you can use whatever word you want you can define things however you want But the the conversational context that makes this conversation important is because there are people out there Using the word in a way that you don't like and in a way that hurts you In a way that inconveniences you so it behooves you just out of self-interest not trying to be st Like to understand What they're reacting to and my understanding is this people have always reacted to the conclusion never the argument never So let's say i'm a white guy, okay, and I tell you state Um I raised my daughter not to mess around with black guys. I told you don't want to have anything to do with those guys You know, um don't knock you up And you know, you'll get pregnant and then they'll go knock somebody else up because that's what those black guys do You know how they are. Let's not be politically correct with it. That's what I teach my daughter now If that's me am I racist? That's my question to you am I racist? So so this is as you make a good point you make a good point So what i'm trying to say is that there are different types there are different levels Right, so I would say that is that is a form of racism. Yes I but I but but what what I'm saying is A variation of that same thing Is what all people are reacting to most. I mean the people who predominantly use this word most people would say That's racist and I think you might want to say that too. I'm not trying to lead you down some unfair philosophical path On one hand, yes, it's of course is very self-evidently racist But what I'm trying to but of course it depends on on what the meaning of the word What I'm saying is there needs to be a special word if it's not racism, it's got to be Give it some other um the word in front of it or come up with a new word for The racism which is literally about biological Superiority and inferiority that there is a dominant race and a superior race or that or that the race races should not mix For some kind of biological Uh reason that is a really Big idea It's important to know whether or not it's true or false. I think it's false I don't think it's the way that the world should work. I think it's incorrect But we need a word for it It's because that results in the dehumanizing of individuals from particular races because of this particular philosophy So if we're gonna say, you know a dad given that type of racist advice to his daughter Is this is in the same general category as hitler talking about the extermination of the jews? Or I don't really listen to richard spencer, but I know i've heard a few things richard spencer says about you know inherent superior or an inferiority of races That is not a good mix. You know one is extreme one is dangerous and one is Is uh less extreme And less weight so So I think we can make a distinction between The the attitude that one has towards someone and The belief one has about What the proper response to that attitude is right? So a person can say I don't like black people. I'm just being honest I don't like them Okay, um, and okay Go ahead and that same person can say So as a result, I would like to say black people you go do you? I don't want any say on what you do. I'm not trying to hurt you or harm you. I just want to be among amongst my own people Okay, I don't like you guys. I don't want to have a conversation about it. I don't want a whole hands or not like that I don't want integration. I'm just gonna do me and you do you that would be one response Another response will be I don't like you guys And I want to see you leave or I don't like you guys and I'm gonna try to kill you Yeah, those are two radically different responses and we shouldn't treat everybody Like they're going to have the same behavioral response to an attitude new position But the two things can be separated And what I'm saying is when people say racism Okay, they're responding to The dislike part The hate part. Okay. Um, that's directed at someone's race And I think for the people who say racism I don't think it's ever mattered to them That the person they're calling racist thinks they have a good argument for their beliefs I don't think that's ever mattered. I don't think that's a new thing Right and I actually think that's true of different races too. Like I can give you concrete examples of Whites responding in the same way when black people talk that way sure and and my perspective is um I want to get at the truth So like something that's very uncomfortable that you're not supposed to say You know and being civilized is if it's true that there is inherent Superiority or inferiority in races. I want to know about it. It's going to affect my behavior You know it depending on the way that the world is I'm going to structure my ethical system I don't I don't come up with my ethics first and say well if the world doesn't correspond to it That's a problem of the world. Well, it's a problem with my ethical system. So my point is to say The the problem with racism as I see it And well it's self-evident when we're talking about the big racism the big are But even when you're talking about this these other types of racism these let's say non violent forms of racism I think it's a philosophic error. Like it's it's it's an ignorant abstraction error The problem with racism isn't some self-evident thing. Oh, it's inherently bad to be racist. Well, what do you mean? It's like it's inherently incorrect To to think that somebody's group identity is more fundamental than their humanity Like if you're treating people if you see people as individuals it literally is a as a simple philosophic error to say Oh, I'm going to have some judgment about tk as an individual Because he has these properties that he didn't choose versus seeing them as an individual for the properties He does choose. That's what I see is this kind like the the the philosophic error with Social racism or whatever you want to call it So so forgive me. Yeah, if I'm not getting something here, but The the problem I have right now is I'm I'm not conceding the distinction between these types of racism that you're talking about I'm I'm making the claim That for people who allege racism and I'm not defending them, but I think it's important that if if you feel Inconvenienced or negatively affected By the way people use the word Out of self-interest it behooves you to have a really good understanding Of what they're referring to in their in their use of the word even if you think it's unfair for them to do so and what i'm saying is I think it has pretty consistently Always referred to the same thing Even though that same thing might manifest in a dramatic way like hitler Or it might manifest in a different way like some some guys just casually say hey, you know, I don't like hanging around black people I don't like hanging around kind of people whatever and and that is it's a reaction to the sense that You hate you dislike You got something against me because of my skin color and and the fact that those people Have arguments or believe they have arguments or believe they they're logically substantiated in their hatred has never really mattered Either way to the people who allege racism. Yeah, I I So i'm not sure I I would Agree so if your position is that These are the way people use the term sometimes I think I agree with that but the claim is wrong and it's a big deal that it's wrong for the same reason that um What's happened to the word violence? So it used to be that violence was something everybody knew what violence was and then especially on college campuses The the definition of the word started changing and now violence was saying things that made people feel bad So we have this very strong connotation that violence is this thing that everywhere and always has to be avoided Well, I should with caveats It's a really bad thing violence And it's it's justified to restrict people's behavior based on potential threats of violence But then a certain group of people came along and said oh now when you say these nasty things that hurt my feelings That's now a form of violence against me because it causes me a negative psychological state Now yes, that is the way they use the term, but I object. That's a big deal. I don't think it should be okay I think we should put up a fight and say no That's a bad definition of violence that that takes away the the power of it. Yeah Okay, so so When it comes to violence I agree with you that the goalpost has moved right that once upon a time Violence seemed to have met something along the lines of what you do to a person physically um, but then it seems like That boundary expanded a bit and now it's like violence is you hurt my feelings, right? I I agree we should contest that and I believe sometimes it's important It's important to fight for language to not merely say all this is how people talk I'm not going to change them forget it. That that's an understanding that I'm willing to fight for that's a word I'm willing to fight for When I talk about racism, however again there is a distinction between the the psychological disposition And the belief about what sort of reaction response is best and there has always been a lot of diversity on that Okay, so there there are people who most would consider to be racist who weren't in forced slavery Okay, there there are people who you know, um some would consider racist who You know art and art and okay with talking smack about black people in public Okay, or who or who aren't okay with violence All right, so there can be a lot of diversity within a category of people that might be called racist But what what unifies them in the eyes of the person that are saying that's saying you're racist You're racist and I just think it's important to understand where they're coming from What unifies them is that this person Has the sense that you are against me you're and you're against this in particular Maybe you got your arguments. Maybe you don't but but but I think you're against me You don't you don't like my blackness Or you hate my blackness and I know I'm just speaking in terms of blackness, but whatever the race is, you know, yeah okay, okay, so This is what this is where I I guess I am maybe fighting language. I'm not I'm not quite sure But let me give you an example of a friend that I had that was a A restaurant manager is like a Chick-fil-A manager out west And he loved to know a rural rural community and there weren't many black people there and he said I I understand exactly where this guy's coming from um he said Steve I have noticed in my he was a young guy at the time we he was probably 20 years old when we had this conversation he said That the very worst customers that come out of my restaurant are black people that make big fusses about whatever it is Are without a doubt black and he said so I almost feel like apprehension When a black customer comes into the store because I feel like you know The chances go up of there being some kind of an issue and then he said I have absolutely nothing against black people Like nothing that doesn't even make sense. I see it as something that's you know Yeah, that's melanin like and then I feel really bad for having that feeling even though I don't have a positive You know belief in the inferiority of the race, but I might say something like well You know if the the chances of problems at the store go up into black Uh person walks in the door So is that a case then with this term racism where you'd say oh Obviously, this is a case of racism Where I think there's a lot of white people who would hear that scenario and they go that well, that's not racism That's something else that that shouldn't get the same Label yeah Sure, so this is why this is why I'm saying I'm not coming at this from a vantage point of defending anybody But I I care about effective communication. So here's what I would say to that. Sure. I totally understand that right? I completely get it and and let's just go ahead and take that on faith that like hey This guy's accurately reporting how he really fails. He's just making an observation right and Let's take it even a step further and say black people have made that observation, okay, and Sometimes black people have conversations with other black people about those kinds of observations and nobody gets mad Nobody calls anybody racist Some people look at it as loving some people look at it as hey, this is this is what it means for us to care about our community There are real conversations. I I know that whenever Uh black people complain about uh things like racism Everybody for the first time, you know, uh only in defense to those complaints say things like what what about black on black crime? But there there's actually a lot of conversations a lot of organization going on It's just that black people don't protest those things or talk about those things to white people because it's usually kind of like an inner family conversation But there are lots of conversations that happen where black people are like hey, man We kind of do this thing You know In a pretty bad way and we need to fix that, you know, what what do you all think? Are you know what like I noticed a lot of brothers are like this I know I know that I noticed brothers struggle with this I know we do this and that you know and everybody's kind of chipping in trying to figure out Well, you know like maybe we can come at it from this angle or maybe this is a deeper understanding but Although i'm telling you all of this I am the person in the conversation that will not be surprised at all If your friend says that to a group of black people and they get mad Oh for sure And also i'm not gonna look at your friend as a victim Because i'm gonna expect your friend to have the social iq to know that's the response He's going to get it right, but that's still i'm gonna i'm gonna ask your friend. I'm gonna say i'm gonna say hey man Hey, um if your only goal is to keep it real Be right in your own eyes and speak what you believe to be the truth Come what may then go ahead say it they'll get mad at you But whatever you fulfilled your goal you spoke what you what you thought was the truth and You know you fulfilled your purpose however If your goal is to try to change that reality and you feel Based on your goals that you need their cooperation Um, you might want to wrap with me for a few minutes about some ways you want to do that Because as one who knows what it's like to say those things and have them be heard Uh, I might be able to help you out a little bit. Um, and and and and the reason why it's understandable The reason why it's not like but that's crazy. Why is it that if a black guy says it, you know, it's felt like love and This is a family dynamic. We experience all the time. It's the same reason why If I as a friend come to you and say Steve man, I I don't think what you did was right and some stranger from You know The academy who's known for going back and forth with you that you kind of already might see as the enemy Says the same thing to you. You know, you're gonna hear it from me more We do this in in relationships all the time like we allow people that we trust To criticize us in a way that we don't allow people that we have some defensiveness against or some insecurity around So those people are going to say that's racist I don't think because they woke up, you know, I you know Walk about a bit and decided to to just use that word flippantly It's because they're going to hear that observation as one that is being made against them So I I agree with 99 of what you just said and I think that's totally sensible But the The objection just like with the violence thing the objection is to say look if we're gonna have Like a real conversation a real dialogue in a in a country or in a culture Where our culture our american culture is made up of people with different races I think there needs to be a default assumption Where we can agree well actually in that circumstance It might be tacky for him to say in a group of black people like we're just stupid To say if he does if he's not expecting some negative result But that there's that that's truthful that that he can Say a claim like that and also say and I have no issue with black people whatsoever There are like like the example you gave like man, I don't like black people I got these judgments about them and I don't want to hang out with them. Okay That's we can call that racism Like I think everybody can it can be comfortable calling that racism But this guy can agree with a little bit of what the racist has to say which is you know In the store more likely than not You know, there's going to be an issue if it's a black person versus a white person He could be with that part But that's not nasty. That's not ignorant. That's not wrong or incorrect. That's true And then throw out the the the nasty bits like that is that seems like such in uh Like in order to have some kind of social trust You got to be able to differentiate between the serious racist And somebody who is making correct observations and expressing them in a way that upsets people Steve I have spent a lot of time In in in the horrific space Of just knowing in my head that what i'm saying is reasonable Just listen to what I am saying listen to the distinction I am making to you like do you agree with this definition? Okay, compare this compare that how are those two things any different and people don't hear me All right, I've spent a lot of time in that space And I don't consider myself a victim for ever having spent a second in that space But there's a lot to be learned from that space, especially when you are communicating For the purpose of getting another person to hear you and again I don't think you always need to communicate with that intent I'm totally okay with communicating for effect or communicating to keep it real for yourself But if you are ever going to complain about the way another person reacts to you That means you care So you can't be the one to pretend like you don't care, right? That means you want to serve in kind of reaction And there are some things that are useful to keep in mind if you're trying to get that reaction Now here's the thing you're you're pointing out something that's ontological in nature You're telling me about what this person's intentions are That that's in the realm of beingness, but there's an epistemic problem Okay, how am I the person he's talking to where do I get my confidence from that? He's telling me this because he cares about me because here's the thing that doesn't get talked about enough with truth and I'm not saying the alternative is to lie but The truth is often used as a weapon as much as it is used as an asset And if you want to know if you want to understand why so many people have a hard time admitting that they're wrong And they're still responsible for not admitting that they're wrong is because people are assholes a lot of the times when they're right Okay, and just because I'm telling you the truth Doesn't mean I'm telling it to you Because I love you because I care for you because I'm fighting for you because I'm trying to help you get better Sometimes I might be telling you the truth because I want you to feel like crap about yourself Okay, that is a reality and that doesn't let any of us off the hook Okay, um, if you deny the truth just because I say it in a way that makes me a jerk You're responsible for that denial However, if I'm the one that's speaking the truth and I care about my truth being received Then it would be irrational of me thing ding ding ding there's that rationality where it would be irrational of me I am a person who doesn't give a damn about the truth if I disregard the following That the person that i'm talking to has more going on In how they receive me Then logic alone They are going to react to things like how much they trust me or what vantage point they think i'm coming from And if they feel like i'm coming at it from the vantage point of a person that's fighting for them They will be more receptive of what I have to say if they feel like i'm an enemy or they're not sure They're gonna be more defensive and and and don't get it twisted They might actually accept what i'm saying intellectually But because of that defensiveness and insecurity never admit it to me because that's just part of the social game And it's important to have the social IQ to detect that so It sounds cheesy but think about the old john maxwell quote People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care, you know, um If you know, I'll use the black on black crime thing I talked about and I'll I'll take white people out of it and put a black person in it, okay um larry elder talks about this all larry elder loves to say Okay, that more black people are being killed by each other All right, then then they are by the police and so forth you go look at any of these debates Google google larry elder versus mark lomond hill and watch them debate They're on a show where the where the topic is about A black person that was recently killed, you know in a police brutality incident. That's the topic. That's what they're on the show for and larry elder is persistently bringing it back to No matter how many times this happens and y'all complain about this more blacks are killing each other Now people on the conservative side love that they accept it, okay in case you're wondering Why most of the black people on the left ain't trying to hear that is because the general perception i'm not saying that that That it's okay this way, but i'm just like breaking it down the general perception is he only brings up black on black crime As a way to silence our complaints Right about white on black crime. That's the only time he cares about that You know, he's never coming over to our churches and to our events He never leaves the republicans and the libertarians behind to come hang out with us and say hey y'all How can I be a part of these discussions to to help out with the black on black crime? No, no He he uses that whenever we want to complain about something It's a great example Of how a true observation That people will accept from someone that they perceive to be on their side They will get super defensive about when they believe another person is bringing it up within a context where their motives are unclear And when you don't know somebody very well, and it's the first time you're bringing this up to them You're highly likely to get that so let me push back a little bit. I'll say the whitest thing ever, okay, and um So imagine that the goal is to have a society in which there are Good race relations. Actually, japan's kind of a good example of this There's a bunch of you know surveys and videos and stuff have done people interviewing minorities in japan Which you know that japan is like 98 percent japanese or something crazy And so they say oh as a you know as a black person in japan Do you feel a lot of discrimination and or whatever it is you're hispanic or whatever and they go No, not really. I mean every every once in a while You know people you know want to touch your hair because they've never seen anything like it But people are super polite. I think those it seems to be a much more A much less racist um culture in in japan than in the states, but So let's say Say what? Not I'll go ahead. Oh, so let's say that the goal is to have a a culture in which there's better race relations People don't don't have that feeling of there being racial tension there Wouldn't it be important then to communicate that It might be the case that people's intentions on one side You know, let's say on the white side of the debate are actually not as bad as maybe a lot of black people are feeling Right like maybe there's a group of people. Let's say let's call them the police or the the Institutionalized violence. Yes. I think a lot of people Can agree that there is genuine bad intentions there even sometimes But when we have conversations about race and we say things like this We have conversations in in general even if they don't sound as nice it's not from a position of ill intent so Wouldn't that be important to the to the peace the puzzle trying to improve like Race relations and the culture in a community is that you would want that truth to be communicated All right. So, uh, oh boy a few things here first I'm not sure if the goal that you stated is is the right goal to strive for but we'll have to come back to that Um, secondly, um, I think the the improvement That this distinction brings to the discussion is Kind of sort of but it also reinforces in the eyes of people who make the allegations of racism What they've been saying all along. So let me let me let me concede the kind of sort of improvement Um, in most cases of conflict resolution. I involve I mean in which I am involved. Um, I find that it is usually the case that the person who uh, does the offending Or who starts the argument or ruffles the feathers Usually their intentions are better than you know, how it came out, right? And for the most part the way you solve that is you kind of take ownership of it and you and you try to get better At at at bridging the gap between what we say and what we mean communication. It's just a hard thing We don't always get this right. That's not a white problem or a race problem. Whatever. It's just a really hard thing. Um and You can't go a single week without experiencing the reality of that gap You probably hurt somebody's feelings made somebody angry slightly annoyed somebody or whatever Because you you said something just meaning it straight, right? And and for whatever reason they heard your question or your your statement in in some other way that that that happens And yes, it is always an improvement for people to know That you met something that's a little bit more innocent than what you might have conveyed. Um, but It's it's so funny that i'm that i'm that i'm in this position articulating this, uh, but The people that are are and i and and and i can see that there's some diversity in in that movement But the people that are arguing against white supremacy Are are already saying This is why white people don't get it because they're gazing into their souls and saying, uh I don't mean black people any harm and then they're missing the point. That's not what we're attacking That's not what we're arguing about We're talking about an ideological virus that affects The things you actually do the things you actually say at a level that you're not always conscious of right? it's it's not It's not that you aren't sincere It's that the result you're producing is bad. I mean going back to that get out example There were some nice people harming that boy. In fact, look um There are already Many people on the conservative side who say this very thing all the time about liberals Right all the time. Um, in fact, um What was it? Um, they say all the time that like Black people are constantly being duped Take an advantage of and exploit it by people that are really good At saying things like I feel your pain I know what you guys are going through Why did thomas soul feel the need to say? That we have to measure a policy By its effects rather than its intentions. Why does that need to be said? It needs to be said because People really are affected by their perception of of intentions And and there really are people in the world who mean well, okay, and they do us harm all the time. So so I I think I can appeal to common sense here and say if you truly disagree with this, let me know Maybe we can debate it But I don't think there's anybody out there that's going to disagree with the fact that the role to hell as the saying goes Is uh is paved with sincere intentions that many people are sincerely trying to do you good and they're just screwing things up You know so Go ahead. You you don't have to hate people and you're a heart You know and you can think of yourself as a good person and you can be against me or you can be against us I think that's how the argument would go. So in that circumstance, let's say that there is this type of white supremacist Supremacism that is subconscious If that's true, that's a big deal I mean that's absolutely a big deal and it needs to be talked about but How is one supposed to challenge it if the claim is oh by challenging it you've affirmed it Like if the claim is you have this thing About your psychology that you say isn't there and you don't see it and if you deny it It's just because you don't see it. That seems like a A very hard argument to try to rebut Yeah, if i'm understanding you correctly you're saying hey look, um I I don't believe that white supremacy exists I'm open to what arguments you have on behalf of it, but I don't believe it exists And I like to debate that and I I like the freedom to have that debate without me being a racist That's not quite what I'm saying if you're if the claim is that White supremacy is invisible to white people How could they possibly say well, it's not there? Like how how can how is that a debatable proposition? Like I want to talk about it. Maybe it's I'll treat it as an empirical Possibility, but I'm saying if I can't see it. How am I supposed to get it? Well two things so first the claim is not that it's invisible to white people Remember the the claim about white supremacy is that everybody's infected by it. Okay So it's it it's an ideological virus that has spread across you know to different people There are black people that are affected by white supremacy But how do they see it how do the how do the whites how do the theorists about white supremacy see the thing that nobody else can see So I think I think I think one thing that could be said is look Maybe invisible is the wrong word But but rather this is something that can exist alongside sincere intentions. So I'll give you an example I love my dog Okay, I love my dog more than I love you And and and and have you met people who feel that way about their dog? Yeah, have you met people who love their dog more than they love a human being? Yeah, who do you think has a better chance at sitting at my dinner table? You are my dog More than more than my my greatest of friends But yet a man who is my enemy I will allow him to stand face to face with me and relate to me in ways that I will never allow my dog And the restrictions that I place on my dog don't come from a place of consciously held hate Okay, um, it comes from a way of seeing my dog um That although very loving I I still kind of see it as as a dog and you can force me into philosophy and And make explicit the fact that yeah, I guess in some ways I do see my dog is beneath you But but I'm not thinking about that all the time I I just kind of have it as part of my my mo right like there's just there's just a place I don't go with my dog that I will go with the man and there's a zone I won't go into with a man that I will go into with my dog and um I I haven't heard anybody use that but That that could be an example of how Not invisible, but you can have positive emotions towards an entity coexisting with um A comparative amount of disrespect you say I completely agree But the trouble with that one is that it's available upon introspection If somebody were to come up and say hey think up Actually think about your beliefs about your dog Actually think about your treatment think about these different scenarios You wouldn't let your dog at their dinner table then everybody could introspect and go. Oh, yeah, of course. That's there. Yeah, I guess that's funny I use the same term. I love my dog But I I actually have these distinctions, but in this And there are and there are some white people who claim to have done that And now they believe in white surprise. Yeah, and they call them. Yes Absolutely, and I those So white supremacy is a thing and I think it my claim would be I think it's an observable thing Like I think I've I've met people who are White supremacists who could see and acknowledge and accept that and maybe feel bad about it But there's a whole another group of people which say I get the concept But it doesn't apply to me. It's not there and it's and by saying there's this there's this uh unique property of this white supremacy thing is that it's hiding and What no matter how hard you search the flashlight, you're never going to find it and that's if it's nature That seems to make the concept a lot more dubious to me Yeah, so um And and worth and I would say it worth worth pointing out and worth challenging and saying like The thing that you're claiming is existing all over the place in a culture that if it truly does exist Is gonna affect race relations If that thing actually exists or it doesn't exist or it exists 10 of the cases that it doesn't 90 or it does for 90 And it doesn't for 10 that's a really that's very important and it seems like something that would be worth Stating or denying if it's not something you find within yourself Okay, so now you're starting to kind of get Move towards why I don't think this is a good starting point I have a lot of different reasons for why I don't think All those original questions I spelled out a lot around white supremacy are the best starting point but there are debates on this and um There are people on both sides of the white supremacy debate Who whether you agree with them or not Actually do go back and forth analyzing the hell out of specific examples Now i'm a pessimist on either side Gaining much by way of converting the other side. I'm a pessimist Okay But there are debates on that there are people that go back and forth on that and I think It's you know the reason I I said what I said on this topic is because We started off dealing with the issue of people saying you're racist And talking about what it is they're responding to And and I think it's very important to understand that When people say you're racist It's typically irrelevant to those people That you think you are being logical in what it is you're saying They're not reacting to the internal logic that led you to make the observation you're making They're reacting to a combination of whatever conclusion you have And and and the emotional experience they're having of you using that conclusion against them I think that's a useful thing to understand when you're communicating that that's not an argument for anything about white supremacy but I mean, I don't know where you want to go with that but So I I think that it's one thing to say that you know People have a logical reason for racism. There's like like oh you think I'm being racist, but really I'm being logical Like that's what is one phenomena that it is the case and if you talk with people who would maybe label themselves as racist They definitely think that it's logical. I'm saying something different Which is that this this underlying motivation that oh like you were saying before Oh, you're treating me this way because you don't like my skin color. You don't like this race this Yeah, this property that I have that I didn't choose That's something that's I think important to communicate to say that's actually not what's going on like I'm not just lying to you and in saying Oh, I don't have those intentions. It's actually not there It's there for some people and some people will maybe lie about it And some people probably will say it rather freely But I have a positive belief and maybe this is a more conservative thing. It sounds like That in American culture your average white dude really does not care does not have strong emotional evaluations and pre judgments about people because of their skin color Like it's not it's it's like it's such an irrelevant thing. It's it's not even worth talking about but As I have that positive belief, however in the same culture We also have another group of people a large group of people who say no Actually, this is rampant and it's causing all kinds of inequality and injustice in society And so I I don't see how we get away from trying to communicate that The bad intention isn't there or that that that emotional judgment isn't there because of skin color Sure, uh all the more reason why I don't think it's the best starting point But you know on behalf of those for those whom this is a starting point First I think I think there are a lot of people out there who Who would be willing to concede? That there are white people out there that are no threat to them. They mean them no harm Uh, even if they did they're far removed away from their experience or they have no power. They have no resources I I really don't think there's anyone out there who believes in white supremacy Who genuinely believes that every white person is a threat to or even a threat to someone they care about Um, I I think even people who believe in white supremacy believe that there are white people that Just don't have any rank. Just don't have any status and so forth. Okay, but These these claims typically come from specific experiences, right? Um And and and even if you believe the experience was actually an lsd experience where they hallucinated up something that didn't Okay, the claim being made is there was an experience It could it could be something as small as somebody looked at me funny It could have been, you know getting pulled over by the cops and having this negative experience whatever But there's a reaction to that and that reaction is usually accompanied by this ain't the first time it's happened to one of us And this this stuff happens too much And I don't think it moves the conversation forward if you're interested in that by responding to that by saying well I'm not like that or all of us aren't like that you know, um And you know the police brutality is is a classic example because it is often treated as You're you're cop hating you're saying all cops are are evil and so forth and and I I think it's the I think for many it would be hey look um We're reacting to specific things here That are causing problems and if you want to debate us on whether those things are real or not We can have that debate, but we're reacting to specific things and Whether it's a hundred people or you know any random white guy in any given state It's a big enough problem You know for for us to feel the need to fight against or talk about I feel like this is an opportunity for Individualism here and what and why I think philosophy has such an effect on culture because Seeing you and everybody else as individuals and peers I if if you're reporting a certain common experience, that's negative that is a big deal That is an issue unquestionably On the other side just like there are innumerable experiences that black people I'm sure have had in the states of What is probably real racism or real white supremacy? There are innumerable circumstances of white people like myself being accused of that And it being completely incorrect. So it seems like just If we're not able to talk about the validity of our experiences We're going to be missing a big piece of the puzzle here Which is maybe we're both right that there seriously is a problem At on both sides, but if it's not something that's universal or close to universal or it's something like I mean there is a movement that you know like Not all white people Movement which is like making making fun of this idea that not all white people are racist It's like yes all white people are actually racist type thing like that's out there It's a really big idea as peers if we're communicating the information to say hey look I recognize what you're going through is a real thing, but I don't think it's systemic I think it's systemic when you're talking about the police. I really do. I have I've looked at the evidence I think that it's pretty nasty had some connections with people in the police force. It's pretty nasty And of course, it's tied to government. So I I think there's a huge problem there But in terms of like our culture at large, I really don't think it is and I think it's a bit and I think that's That is a bit of information. That's so important. I want all of my black peers to know that Like I really I think that would greatly improve Their lives and our mutual lives together Do you think that's naive? I'm not gonna say it's naive. I have to think about it for a while. It's it's not my battle It's it's not it's not a battle that I'm interested in fighting. Um I I know for me personally um At a fundamental level I I believe that it's important to be a pessimist about Wrong things so that you can be an optimist about the right things, right? So for instance, uh, I'm a pessimist about the idea that There are people in this world who are going to knock themselves out trying to figure out a way to make tk coma successful Right. I'm a pessimist. I think if I drop dead right now Besides my mom and like five of the people nobody would give it down Out of all the people who do give it down, maybe over it in two weeks more focused on what they're going to eat for lunch Right. So I'm a pessimist on that and that makes me an optimist on You know what I need to do to make my dreams come true that makes me an optimist on things like hard work personal responsibility and so forth So I've got things that I'm a pessimist pessimist about but that doesn't make me discourage or depress It makes me an optimist about different things my hope in those things I personally Lots of people disagree with me on this but I personally am a pessimist on Minorities convincing white people of anything About the way they experience the world and I'm a pessimist on white people convincing minorities of anything about the way they see the world At least when it comes to this issue of race, I believe that people of different races can learn all sorts of things from each other Uh, but out of all the discussions on race. I've observed I've participated in and so forth I think it's so heavily politicized. I think there's so much baggage around it. Yeah, I know I know there are testimonies of people that said but I Participated in the conversation. I read, you know, ton of hussy coach's book and it changed my life I get that I get there are people like that, but I think there is a pretty low ceiling for what is attainable through that approach through that approach um, and that's not the equivalent of Stop talking about race Because people are going to talk about it whether I want them to or not. I'm going to talk about it. It's entertaining. It's interesting. Why not? Um, and because I don't put race on the pedestal. I'm not threatened by the discussion I'm not threatened by having to admit that some things are are about race I'm not threatened by having to concede that some things are not like has zero political implication for me I'm not afraid of how liberals are going to use it or how conservatives are going to use it I'm free to just look at the situation as it is But as a pessimist on where that discussion can take us I happen to think that alongside Interesting entertaining discussions on on that stuff I think it's more profitable to bring the focus down to actions What's being done? So I'll use this analogy as an analogy like racism is like a tabletop Okay, and evil You know, we'll call evil the legs upon which the tabletop rests Okay, um, if I attack the tabletop I'm just gonna hurt my hand and make a lot of noise and make the people around me mad Not afraid to do any of those things But if I have better things to do with my time, I'll do the other thing On the other hand, if I kick the legs under that table That top will come right on down with it because the legs that's where the power is So when you think about something like racism, what makes this such a provocative thing? What makes this such an important thing to people? It's not because there are people having private Internal experiences that make us feel icky. That's Human beings aren't that fragile. That's not what's going on it's because Racism is used as an explanation for something else and without the thing that racism is explaining racism becomes irrelevant Well, what is the thing that racism is explaining? A moral obligation unfulfilled or an act of wrongdoing performed So an example Say let's say I walked up to you off the street And I said, hey man, you see Patterson to do with that podcast And you say, yeah, that's me and I look around and I punch you in the face And I say that's for all that smack you talk about mathematics, son Pure mathematics pure mathematics Okay, now can we agree that I performed an act of wrongdoing there? Yes Okay, and Anybody who saw that or heard about that Would probably not be interested at all in having a discussion on mathematics They'd be interested in holding me accountable for the thing that I did wrong, right? The the explanation for why it seems obvious Like for whatever reason tk is so shallow of a do that he feels the need to violently express his disagreement with people who criticize his positions on mathematics So now let's change that same scenario up So now I walk up to you on the street and I say, hey man You see Patterson, right the do with the podcast and you say, yeah, that's me And I look around and I hit you in the face and I say that's for all that smack you talk about black people on your podcast Okay, and now now I'll walk away Okay, so now We have an act of wrongdoing combined with A racial explanation, right he did this to me because I'm white now I'm all good with having conversations that make people uncomfortable although I'm not so determined to prove my Ability to endure discomfort that I'm going to have a conversation that is pointless for that reason alone But I feel no need to protect anybody's sensitivities if something was about race I'm going to say it right like yeah, that's about race prove it. How do you know? Man, please miss me with that. It was about race. I heard what he said Hit him in the face Because he didn't like the way he talked about black people. That was a racially charged thing. Um, but What why is the racial mode of a problem if he if he had walked past you Having a conversation with somebody else being like, yeah, look, that's that fool Steve Patterson over there I hate that guy. He talked smack about black people on his podcast Nobody would have had a complaint about anything he could have just kept walking and that would have been it But why do we have a complaint? We have a complaint because he punched you in the face. Now. Here's the interesting thing about this The punching you in the face part is measurable. It's concrete We got this dude. We got him man. This is we got him, right? and By focusing on the motive Which i'm okay. We're talking about but by focusing on the motive We just let we just let him off the hook We just let him off the hook because you know what's gonna happen now like tk. You're you're racist Black people can't be racist or you're racist. I have a white dog. Uh, I've got my best friend is white I I gave a thousand dollars to the uh, the the white people together this organization The church that I go to is majority white. I've got a hundred white people that are lined up right now I'll tell you how good of a person I am and and now we got ourselves and Our never-ending debate about the invisible secrets of my soul That you're never going to get at you just gave me an out because you took the conversation in a direction where Even if you're correct You just gave me the best chance For self-defense, but my argument is weakest if you move it to the plane of Why of how it's wrong for me to punch you in the face now Here's the thing if you remove The race part you still have the punch in the face part and we can hold you accountable But if you remove the punch you in the face part even if you got the race part You don't have anything other than some somebody's opinion that you feel uncomfortable with that's all you got And there's no basis for discussing anything So Go ahead. So I I'm totally with you at especially like talking about a political Structure and talking about a lot of relations that people might have with strangers But there's another dimension to this which is the the cultural Dimension and it's about you know the smaller circles about you know life things that matter in life So if you're walking down the street, let's say you go. I don't know. We're super racist places, but Let's say we're in the 1940s And you're in savannah, georgia and you're walking down the street and it might not be that people are are Politically aggressing against you, but the way that they treat you is as an inferior because of your skin color Now that is something But we got to come out of the abstract, man. We got to come out of the abstract We you got to give me some specific. What does that even mean? So so there are there's two different water fountains There's one that's maintained well kept for white people and then there's the dirty gross one. That's for black people who owns the water fountains because In the scenarios that I know from my history, that's a really Unsustainable phenomenon. It's true unless you've got some form of authoritarianism backing it up. It's a fair point because The world I observe it is extremely difficult To keep races apart, you know as a whole you got to threaten to lock them up to get them to stop Making love to each other drink it from each other's water fountains hanging out playing ball together watching tv together It's a really hard thing to sustain But so if we're going to go back in history like oh, okay Yeah, you're telling me that if I drink from the white water fountain, you know government agents are going to come You know sick dogs on me and lock me up. Okay. I I get that situation It's a fair point and historically you're right a lot. I mean segregation was Had to be enforced by state for economic reasons that it's really really expensive and the the Psychological pleasure people get from segregation does not outweigh the economic harm that's done by it And so the economics wins out. So that's that's a fair point. So let's take a different example Make a make a behavior reflects it. It's not theoretical. There's there's evidence of people's behavior reflecting that very thing Right, exactly. So let's talk about uh, I'll put myself in this circumstance. Let's say I'm on campus and I'm giving a talk about the philosophy of mathematics and uh, I've got some heretical views and Let's say that the audience that I'm talking with Has a bunch of uh present prejudice because I don't have my phd in philosophy or mathematics So what business do you have that speaking about topics you don't understand? You're a stupid fool. So they don't do anything to physically aggress against me. They don't do anything. That's You know, I would sue them over but they treat me like dirt because I don't have the appropriate qualifications Now I would say from a philosophic standpoint, they're being ignorant Like that's a culture. I don't want to be a part of the academic culture It's actually not too far removed from this scenario is a culture I don't want to be a part of this is part of the reason I want to move to japan because The way that people treat you is better by my values You get more like default you're treated more as a human than you are in the states So boy, that was a really good example, but I lost my trying to thought. What was it go? What was it? How did this start? well You agree with me that When it comes to things that are clear instances of like violating someone's political rights like a physical violence or stuff That's right. That's right. So so this was in response to you saying that the the conversation is As you're a pessimist about it So I think that's a fair point, but here's why it's not I don't think we should just focus on the political It's because the cultural really matters in terms of your standard of living in terms of how you experience the world The way that other people treat you for the properties that you have is a very big deal So if if what is being claimed is that in my culture that I live in the people I'm around Have a psychological bias against me because of my skin color That's a big deal Like that's something that needs to be talked about it needs to be sorted out And it needs to be addressed with the people that you think are you know have that that problematic psychology That psychology that's negatively affecting your your worldview. So why so If I think that the uh, the academic example is a good one where it's like I feel I think I am justified In criticizing the psychology of your average snobby academic And I am also justified in I think in criticizing the culture of higher ed for purely philosophical reasons being dogmatic So if that's okay, if I can make those criticisms and have those conversations, then why wouldn't it be okay to talk about Race whether or not white supremacy is a real thing in society That's from either either perspective the black or the white perspective So you picked a very good example because this is something that you do right now, right? You do talk about professors this way you do criticize them this way And you have some of them who like your own respect you they still come on your show But uh, correct me if i'm wrong. You've got you've got some professors who blocked you on facebook You've got some professors who called you like terrible names. You've got some professors who would never look you in the eye Uh, you have like little niche clicks of professors that If they ever saw your downfall, they would absolutely love it Some will think you're a snob will think you're a hack and you're not a true intellectual, right and You've made your peace with that because you know that you're that that's one of the costs to be expected with your opinion And even though you think they're being unfair you also know that's one of the social costs to bear You don't feel like a victim about it. I never hear you cry and complain about it You just find a way to cope with it by make a fun of them by criticizing the more by using it to you know Incorporate into your marketing and so forth and you have carved out your space in the world Where you got the people that get you and support what you do and you're doing your thing Right and you do criticize those professors and you accept what comes with it. Um, so All that's possible Um, I don't think we need to have a conversation about anything you can have a conversation again I'm not the guy that's like I'm not morgan freeman. I'm not I'm not saying stop talking about race and never go away I don't think that's true. Right. I don't think I don't think not talking about something makes it go away You know, but you can talk about it all you want, but I'm saying Do you need to have a conversation with academics? Getting them to approve of your decision To to operate outside of their academies Do you need them to accept your arguments as valid in order to make them and rally up the troops that are on your side? Do you need them to accept as logical? You're right to to remove yourself from their community and do your own thing Not at all. You don't need to have a conversation with them at all You can criticize them for their unwillingness to have it, but you can do whatever you want to do That's true. However in my close of social circles I also want a call. I want an intellectual community I want to be a I want the the romantic academy like when I went when into college thinking it was going to be filled with a bunch of intellectuals That's what I want. I want to be around that So I do want to have conversations with people who are Considered themselves intellectuals and have an issue with what I'm doing They need to sort through that because I can demonstrate That actually you can be a real intellectual outside the academy that kind of a bigotry I'd say this is a type of prejudice and bigotry is Just ignorant. It's not based in reality. It's not based in the fact. So I want more people in my Social circle who are open-minded about that. I think it's the same thing with race If there's a serious problem in your community in your culture with and you think a particular group of people are treating you poorly Because they're bigoted. I think it needs to be brought up And if the reality of the circumstance is that they're not treating you poorly because they aren't bigots That's also a big deal. That also needs to be brought up. That's why I don't I don't see how This kind of problem Can be avoided without talking about it if you're talking about my intentions because they're affecting you as you're a participant in the culture Seems like we got to be talking about my intentions All right, so first I don't think any problems should be avoided I I think I think every problem should be confronted directly And I think you should process it think about it intelligently and formulate some informed opinions about What you think the best reaction and response to that problem is and sometimes that involves having conversations with other people about it Sometimes it doesn't Okay, um, I I don't think having a conversation with people Is necessarily the only way or preferred way to confront a problem, right? Um, that's the first thing Secondly, um regarding the whole thing of like, hey, man, you know, I want a community that's got this and that's got this and You know, I'm sure there are some real good Amish people, man That I can have some awesome times hanging out with You know and having conversations with but it's probably not gonna happen You know what I mean because they they got their own communities. They got their own rules And you know, I'm probably like a heathen to them, you know, um, I'm probably too worldly for them And um, and that's okay That's okay, right? Like if you you have a son, you know, um, he might he might have eyes for an Amish girl And and and she might look at him like man, you're not an option for me You're you're too worldly you're heathen and that might hurt his feelings. You know, that's okay You know, that that's all right That those Amish people ain't the only folks in the world And if if they can't be our friends or don't want to be our friends for good reason for bad reason So what that there's so much diversity in this world That that we live at a time where there is no one cat out there That's so awesome at something that if we don't get that person to be our friend You know that we're stuck and we never get to have amazing discussions about music or history or philosophy or whatever it is We want to do So I I agree with you and I think that a very practical way when you have seven and a half billion people on the planet to have peace is to have Groups like that are not all social with one another you he wanted Association and disassociation among groups not everybody needs to hang out with everybody I'm totally down with that. But what happens when the The tension between those groups Then becomes a problem in your in your literal community So like I lived in Atlanta in a place where it was safe most of the time in the evening It was like a few streets away from places that were up and coming It's like there's more and more racial tension there You know, it's it becomes an actual issue that is not just like oh, hey, you're gonna do your thing I'm gonna do my thing. It's like no we are our futures are kind of geographically You know, we're we're put together. We're interacting with one another another reason by the way Why I want to go to japan is because when you have most people in a dominant culture over there It doesn't really matter where you are there's not there shouldn't be a lot of you know Stupid tension about any of that crap. It's like you don't even have to deal with it. Yeah Yeah, so so first I believe that What you're describing is a macro version of what we're all dealing with all the time at a micro level I think you just describe the nature of the social game if you expand the the tension producing elements beyond race It is the nature of the social game that at all times we find ourselves in environments, whether they be ideological religious cultural social would have you where There is some sense of that that space being uncomfortable for us unsafe for us or tense for us And social IQ was about learning how to navigate it. So anytime you're in that kind of situation Race not being an exception. You got three options Number one you formulate your get out plan Right. I don't like this place. I hate this place. I hate the way it feels I got the same rights as anybody else to get out I'm a formulate my plan if I don't have the power to execute it right now Two is you formulate your protect myself to the best of my ability plan And that can go along in conjunction with with one or it can be a substitute for one. No, I like it here I'm not going somewhere else. I got every right to stay here But I'm going to get my stuff together so that to the best of my ability I can make sure that I experience as little harm as possible From these tension producing elements Three you can say, you know what? I don't want to leave And I don't want to alienate myself and the people in this community or adopt a defensive approach I I got to immerse myself into this And I got to I got to win the room. I got to win the room. Now that third response Is not for the person who isn't comfortable with vulnerability Compromise or making concessions If you don't like those things, it's all good Options one or two will probably do for you But if you really want option three, then you got to be very comfortable with the vulnerability compromising and making concessions And that means You know, you got to take that he that is greatest among you is least among you approach You got to take that, you know, san agustin seek first to understand then to be understood approach Hey, because after all, you are the one who wants the friendship You are the one who wants community, you know what I mean It's it's You got to be the one to approach and be willing to take the risk of approaching and creating misunderstanding Be willing to get rejected be willing to be laughed at be willing to accept that feedback and figure out how to get more creative Be willing to learn what you need to learn to step up your communication game So you can be in that space and get what you need But and I and I don't see how the addition or omission of race From that element changes those three options So that yeah, it's an interesting point you bring up and I wonder what you think about this This is also kind of tied to both of our political tendencies, which is as anti-monopolists I like the idea of Voluntary governance right the idea of people voluntarily getting together and say hey This is the political rules that we're going to live by and if you don't want to abide by them You don't have to You know, you don't move to that particular geographic location or whatever. I wonder if if what I'm part of my internal tension about this issue is that I really want a culture that's kind of arrived at through this voluntary means whereby biological features are essentially irrelevant Like like I I really would love to be in a community and where where people had the same views about race That I do Even though if it's a minority, maybe I'm not worried about my neighbors here Maybe I think this is what I'm getting in japan a little bit where it's like It's really irrelevant. I mean it's it's relevant in the sense that it's relevant for your life And it affects your experiences, but in terms of like how I evaluate you as an individual I'm going to treat you as an individual first Period it's like I just like I want that little cultural or that the political island of people You know wanting voluntary governance Maybe this is what this is coming down to is the solution is to have voluntary cultural norms where it's like Rather than fighting racism and and engaging in this discussion about is it white supremacy? Is it not white supremacy? Is it racism? Is it not blah blah blah blah? Just be like, hey You guys have your argument. I'm going to go seek out the people Who are not going to bother with this? Okay, so so here's my devil's advocate challenge to you. Yeah Very curious about your response to this especially if you don't need that community to be big and I'm not trying to be facetious here I'll explain myself Why not just go buy a home or rent an apartment in a like mostly white conservative community And uh and be happy there. I'll tell you why because first of all most of your black folks that are You know creating this kind of trouble for you creating this kind of discomfort the people that will call you racist Most of them are going to be on the left, right? um and A lot of the whites on the liberal side You know are going to bring this up too for whatever reason you can call it white guilt You can call it sincere belief for whatever reason. This is certainly a conversation that keeps coming up But the group you decide the group you describe sounds like conservatives, right? Because for the most part conservatives feel like look Racism racism may exist, but for the most part its place is exaggerated. We pretty much eliminate it institutional systemic racism There may not be equality of outcomes, but there's equality of opportunity many things racism against white people now Um, it's all about personal responsibility. We're all equal in fact I don't even in fact. I don't even see color. I'm colorblind and to be honest. I'm kind of confused by people Feel the need to talk about race all the time I'm exhausted by debates on race Like why why don't we all just like work hard love god take care of our families pursue our dreams and do our thing Like that's the community you describe. Yeah, and I'm not being facetious or anything. I'm genuinely ask you Why not just go do that and your dream is feel and I'm laughing because I I I have a funny answer Which is that I don't like white people I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm yanked the earphones out of my face. That's a joke That's why you want to go to japan. That's that's the answer Because of the nature of these viewpoints I if I could find that type of community I would not I am demonstrating I wouldn't give a shit what Race they're from but I don't see that with with in general the white community in america And I do see it overseas more at least in japan. Wait, that's why I want to move over there I can only describe white conservative communities uh, I have um Part of it you have not There's another very big part which is lacking in those communities, which is the intellectualism so like I grew up in In various places on the on the east coast that were Largely white someplace. I mean then later on I lived in itland and dc and stuff but like in my youth I was in middle of central new york and plenty of white people very conservative, but not but uh That culture was one for extroverts and not one for introverts that they kind of poo poo'd intellectualism in a few places I also lived in um a place called hornel new york, which is like one of the It's just a county or a really economically depressed county lots of white people lots of world white people um No, thank you. I don't like the culture because they're not As rational as I would like and I'm not a big fan of that version of christian evangelicalism Which is kind of everywhere in the in those communities. So That's really funny because and we I talk about japan a lot. Um But my wife and I went there. We had no expectation whatsoever that we were going to like it We literally wound up going to japan kind of on a whim as we were traveling around and I want to have conversations with buddhists there and so we wind up there and In a matter of a few weeks We totally fell in love with place because it's a land for introverts Everybody's quiet. Everybody's respectful and so much We love the culture so much that we're literally learning a new language One of the hardest languages for english speakers to learn japanese so that we can move over there for exactly that reason So if I liked American white culture bore, then that's what I would do, but I haven't found it in the states I got you so you're formulating your japan plan. Yeah. Yeah And and this is a true story. I mean my wife and I are Hopefully next year are gonna head over there and maybe make it permanent. I mean I I want to raise my kids I think more in that culture because it's more intellectual and rational and peaceful than it is in this culture Yeah, well, uh, I think I understand that and I think that's consistent with the three options I laid out But but I think the three options I laid out are not just a suggestion for you Or any kind of devil's advocate thing. I think it strikes at the heart of um of a very large A very large part of this solution All right, that was part one of my conversation with tk Coleman. I hope you guys enjoyed it And we'll tune in next week for part two episode 87 where we focus We have a large section where we focus specifically on the word color blindness What really does that mean? But that's all I've got for you today. I'll see you guys next week