 Okay, Q slides. Here we go. Good morning everybody. Morning. Hello. This is Jane here. This is Chris here and welcome to the 37th webinar, which has undergone a slight rebrand this week. It has, yes. We've done a lot of time deciding on the layout and the fonts. We had to have an awful lot of branding and marketing meetings, didn't we, to get to this radical. So what we've done here, we wanted to make it clear that we're running these webinars under the auspices of the Copyright and Online Learning Special Interest Group. So the Alt Special Interest Group and here's the marvellous logo that Greg Walters has created that went through a number of workshops and focus groups that gave us something that we all thought was suitably cool. Largely to decide on the size and the position of the glasses. It took us a while, but here we are. Now we've also done a bit of renaming of it because we felt that we wanted to move away from talking about being at a time of crisis. I think we can all agree that it is a time of uncertainty. Can I say the crisis is far from over? Yes, but I think we're noting that we're in a different situation at this point in this year than we were a year ago when we were kind of right in the thick of things. But we still get a sense that people are finding the webinars useful and we are actually planning on putting out a survey and finding out what people find useful. And what their experiences have been of joining the webinars. So look out for that quite shortly. That's something that's being done as part of the cool SIG and that Irene who's with us today is going to be working on. So welcome everybody to this one. And we're very much looking forward to having. I think it's going to be a great session today, isn't it? Absolutely, Chris. Yes. So should we have a look at what we've got lined up on the agenda? Let's do that. We've got our usual copyright news, plenty of news this week because we always start off when we're putting this together thinking we've got one or two things. And there's lots of news, isn't there? Some publications, some recordings from previous events. We've got a new survey out, a couple of new surveys. And yeah. And as ever, if anybody does have any other bits and bobs that we've forgotten if they want to stick a link or something in the chat, that would be fantastic. We can share those. And then we've got a really great presentation from not just to raise the beginning who is the co-chair of the open education, especially interest group. We also have to raise an Ella from that group. So this, we'll talk about more about this in a moment, but clearly there's a very strong link between copyright, understanding copyright issues and open education more broadly. So we're really looking forward to discussing that and making those links. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, we're really delighted that I think we have three members of the other sig with us. So it would be a good chance to talk a bit about some of the issues about open education and where that intersects and overlaps with copyright and understanding copyright. Because I think it's an important part. It's not the only part of open education, but it is quite an important part. So before we get started, let's talk about what we've been up to this week. Jane, you've been spending a lot of time in your garden. Yeah, well, we both actually ended up having a bit of time off, didn't we? So this is, I thought, work in progress, but this is my beautiful beach garden that's kind of inspired by the beach that's around here in Kent, sea salt, which the bull kind of way. So and the tide in my garden has got a particular only comes in so far. So yeah, so I thought I'd show you what I've been up to and spend a nice time dodging rain showers in my garden on Wednesday. Yeah, the summer will be here eventually, I'm sure. And then I've been continuing to obsess about bread. So this is the most recent success I had, but getting a relatively open crumb and a relatively good oven spring. But I did spend, I think I was up until half past midnight on Tuesday watching YouTube videos of people making sourdough bread. So I think it is an obsession. It is an obsession. But there is a perfectly decent bakery that you can just buy it for three pounds. That's not the point. Okay. So there we are. That's that's that's what we've been up to. Just a reminder that we do have the archive of all the previous webinars and that Christine is now putting these on YouTube as well. So it should be an easier way to get access to those and we'll be updating that page to give the links to the latest versions of the recordings. Are you going to put that one in the chat or am I doing that? You can do that. I'll be right here. Something right here. Something right here. Something right here. Okay. So first up, this is actually a magazine that came out actually on the 19th of April. We did put a blog post up about it. It's called the creative academic magazine. There's quite a lot about creativity and higher education. But I just thought we hadn't actually featured this in copyright news and people might be interested. I think we put some of the cartoon versions of us in one of the previous webinars. But there is an article about how we shifted copyright the card game online in that magazine. So Chris, pop the link in and we also made a kind of little mini cartoon describing how we did it. But there is actually some text so you can read if you're interested in our experiences of shifting the card game sessions online. That's the place to go. And there's loads of really, really, really interesting articles in there. One of my colleagues, Joe Payton at City University co-edited this edition. So it's really worth having a look for all sorts of different approaches to creative teaching in different disciplines. Yes. So as Claire says, it looks like something out of an 80s Jackie magazine. It does a bit, doesn't it? Yeah. We were going for that look, Claire. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We took a few of the pictures out. But yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're carrying on with that. We'll maybe come back to it at some point. So. Okay. Next up. I think this is me as well, isn't it? The next one. Yeah. So the, the OER by domains conference, which was at the end of April. This, the recordings are available now in a kind of fabulous interactive online guide for anyone who didn't know about the conference. We presented at this conference on the relationship between copyright literacy and open practices. And they had this really great way of laying out the program to make it look a bit like a sort of retro TV guide. It's really good actually for participants to be able to navigate between sessions. And they've got loads of recordings up. So a couple of things, I guess, other than our session, which actually wasn't recorded because it was a sort of a live chat session that we did on a platform called Discord. But what I would really recommend is that you watch some of the keynotes and the keynote that Rajiv Janjiani. I think that's how you say his name. He's a Canadian open education expert and that is absolutely fantastic keynote. So some, some, yeah, really good recordings there and loads of stuff to explore. I have to say that his keynote was, it was the most like being in a room. People just go, wow, this is incredible that I've experienced since we all went online. So it's definitely worth catching up with. And it will be very, very relevant to what we're talking about today. Yeah, definitely. So the next thing is for those of you who joined us last time round, we had an update from colleagues in Australia. And this is recordings from an event they put on in that previous week from the Australian Digital Alliance Virtual Copyright Forum. So there's some excellent presentations, recordings of presentations in there, including from Dr. Emily Hudson, a member of this parish who I think is with us today. Yes, I can see you on the list. Definitely worth checking out if you want to get into some of the detail of what's happening happening in Australia and hearing from some others as well. So just going back, I think the recordings from the OER by domains are on that site. I think if you go into the guide, then you should be able to get access to the YouTube recordings of those. If not, yes, yes. And on Alps YouTube channel, so you should be able to find all of those things. They definitely take an open approach to that content of this reason. Okay, so that's the Australian stuff. We also wanted to highlight this Spark Europe Open Education Survey, which is looking at libraries and higher education institutions and what their practices and policies are around open education. So again, very relevant to the theme of today's and this is an annual survey as well, isn't it? I think it's something where Spark have done this. They've now got a European network of open education librarians that was created. I think sometime last year, but they're running this survey to look at sort of open education practices and how they've been supported. And it is sort of building on a lot of the work that UNESCO did in this area as well a few years ago. So yeah, next survey. So this survey is from Communia and they are a sort of, well, they came out of a European project, but they're a sort of advocacy organization for copyright reform and sort of other freedoms related to the internet. Now, just to say that this survey and I have clarified this with them because I tweeted a bit about it. They are looking for school teachers to fill this in. So we know lots of you listening are not school teachers, but they are struggling a bit to get teachers in the UK to fill it in. They've been running the survey in about eight different countries around Europe and they would really like more evidence from UK teachers. So if you do have any ways of being able to reach teachers, then can we encourage you to think about how you might share it and just some feedback. I mean, I know I had some from people saying, you know, that the teachers are obviously really, really stressed at the moment, but I did check and they don't want librarians to fill this in. It is a survey where they want to get the experiences of teachers, but we just thought maybe our network might be able to help. So that's the community survey. So the final item, last but not least on copyright news this week is that the call for contributions. Closes on Monday. We need a theme tune. We need a theme tune. All right, well, we'll get working on the theme tune. You've got till the 25th of June. Otherwise, you know, I actually dreamt of song last night and I woke up and it was terrible because of course in the dream, it's brilliant. You're not Paul McCartney, you're just not. Well, I'm not Paul McCartney. Anyway, that is the point. The point is that ice pops is shaping up to be excellent. We have had contributions. There is space for more contributions. And I think we would be, yeah, we're really looking forward to still keeping the ice pops flame alive if that's not mixing two metaphors too much. With this event at the end of June. So don't melt that. Don't leave it too close to a nice and icy. Absolutely. Don't like that. Like we're not going to get a moth involved in the way. No. Right. I think I think is this is where we draw a line under under this particular piece of verbal guy. Ridiculousness and just say, please, if we can put the link in the chat, please consider putting something in. If you have a creative approach to copyright literacy or copyright education. Yes. Excellent. Okay. That was copyright news. Without further ado, it's my great pleasure to introduce our speaker for today. I think we say we have got to raise a McKinnon who's the co-chair of the old open education special interest group but we also have to raise bird and I think we have Ella Mitchell as well, who are both members of the special interest group as well. We're going to hand it to them. I know they do have some slides at one point, but I think I'm handing over to you to raise her to start with. And I think you're going to share your screen and chat to us. So, but really pleased you can join us and the floor is yours. Thank you. Thanks so much. And it's great to be with you all and to see a very impressive long list of participants. So big welcome and thank you for having us popping into your community. But hopefully you're already part of our community as well, the wider open education community. So I'm just going to share my screen and give you a little bit of a tour and a little bit to see you and show you. And this is something you can quite easily do by picking. There we go. Hopefully my sheet, my screen is now shared. Yeah. Are you seeing my screen? I'm seeing a white. I'm just saying. Sorry. Sorry. Click one button. Looks like there we go. There we go. That's it. Great. So using a search engine of your choice, if you put open edsig and possibly the letters ALT into a search engine, you will find us. Yeah. So we have a community space online, which is supported by the Association for Learning Technology, who kindly supply and provide the technology for this particular SIG. You've said co-chair. We've got quite a flat structure, I have to say, within our open edsig community. I take the role of chair at the moment because other people are not available. We just sort of share between ourselves the jobs that have to be done. And I'm really happy as well that you're going to hear from two other committee members. We actually have a very small committee of people. And they're all people in slightly different roles, but the people who are interested in and wish to support or actively advocate and support within their institutions, open education. The mission of the SIG really is to support, develop, sustain and influence policy in open education. So what we try to do as a SIG is to bring together research and practice and foster dialogue between organizations and individuals who are engaged in education. The aim really is to provide a safe space for discussion. And really we try and do that through regular webinars where we focus on a particular aspect of open education. So just to give you a quick insight in some of the things we've done recently, obviously we do quite a lot of the connections to the open education or the OER conferences, the series of conferences that OLD have supported for some years now. So we're very much involved in helping to support and deliver those conferences. So the recent OER by Domain's 21 conference, you see many of our community involved in that. Open badges, open data, all of these communities open source. You can see as well, Rick Bordings here, links to the blog post here. So as you wander through this site, you will be able to find very quickly the various aspects of dialogues and discussions that we've had over the years. We're also very keen to support and recognize networks which are engaged in open practice. So our own contribution to this year's OER conference was in the form of a discussion around the work of bring your own device for learning, the BYOD for L community and the work that they've done and to broaden that conversation out to where should they go next and how should they implement it. We had a really lively discussion there that was very helpful. We're a very friendly community. We are literally open. You don't have to be a member of OLD to participate. And if we go to the home page here, you can see the various spaces that we have and the forums and the blog posts that we do. And we do now have our own, let's just give you a link to this in the chat as well. We do of course have our own Twitter channel. But we're very much needing additional input within our SIG. So if this is an area that actively is of interest to you, we're certainly looking for new members of our committees. You can see our current committee posts here, a little bit of information about them. And we're currently in the process as well of creating a flip grid with some personal comments from members to enable you to get to know them better. Cats are also welcome. Let me just move my cat out of the way so I can see my screen. Blog posts tend to be on sort of community issues. So focus on particular aspects of open and that includes FEMED tech and accessibility and some of the bigger barriers that people experience to education and learning. There's a recent one there, a discussion around open badges as well. But we always welcome people who wish to post to our wider community and get conversations started. So do engage with our GIST mail list if you wish to do that and we can make that happen. I know as well we've got lots of people here who are experts in particular aspects of open education or perhaps your main focus is on OERs for example. Well do take a look and check our past webinars because you'll see there that we've had conversations recently around open COVID for ED and how we can help people find their open voice if you like. Because we know open practice can be contextual, it's very personal, it's not necessarily a straight line. If you champion open education you don't necessarily make everything you do open. So we have those sorts of discussions around the nuances of open practice and you'll find these recorded. And you'll also find them on the old channel under the open education play list. So discussions here around values, we had that discussion back in 2017 where we had Martin Dujiema amongst others talking to us around what is behind Moodle for example and what values they hold. And hard discussions around the role of educational resources in inclusive practice. What we do is aim to provide as I say a safe space for these sorts of discussions. And within that safe space of course that means that at some come the winter conference or Christmas time we generally tend to have a sort of online webinar where we just get together and do daft things together just to recover from the day job. So I'm going to jump back out now because I know Teres has some slides to share so I'll stop my sharing. Please feel free to put your questions in the chat and I will do my best to respond to them. But please be reassured that you know the community of open education which covers a broad range of topics is very much a friendly community. So please welcome your queries and contributions, whatever your role, whether you're a practitioner or a librarian, retired like me, whatever role you find yourselves in, we are open to discussion. And that's what we're here for. I'm going to pass the mic over to Teres now. Thanks so much Teresa. It's, it's so nice to be reminded of all the cool stuff that's been going on. And it's great to meet this SIG. This is my first time joining one of these webinars so thanks so much. So I'm the educational designer for Lester Medical School and part of open education is learning that is co-created by students. And that's, you know, that has its kind of fraught aspects. And so fraught aspects of working together with students but also copyright related issues. So in a way I'm just sort of sharing some of the issues that I've discovered. And not just because of COVID but it kind of got heightened with COVID and so I'd, I hope this gets some conversation going and I would like to get some ideas from you guys from this community about, you know, how we could possibly handle some of this going forward. So I'm just going to share about the, okay. So I look after the medical students and this medical students are insanely busy as well as being insanely competitive and insanely ambitious and all these things. And so in the middle of, you know, learning to be a doctor, they do things like create apps, make all make, you know, 3D models of the brain and, you know, this is what it's like looking after, looking after med students. And so a few years ago I met with a student, he was in year two, and he couldn't find a, an anatomy text that he liked. He wanted it to be online and hyperlinked. So because he couldn't find one he started making his own. And it's called teach me anatomy. So he, he started making it online with WordPress, and it just mushroomed into this well used online resource. Because he was able to kind of get some traction in the United States. He was able to start advertising to American doctors who pay a lot of money to see adverts about pharmaceuticals. And that was how he got an income from this. So he could roll the money back into the project. And then he, you know, he was able to do anatomy, surgery, physiology, OB, gyny, pediatrics. And it became so good, and it's so international, internationally vetted that it is good enough to use as an anatomy text. And we now use it as our anatomy text. Okay. Now, it was OER 15, I think, that I brought along this chappy to the OER conference and we presented together on this project. And since then he's he's a doctor in Cambridge, he's going on with his life, but he's still looking after the project. He's got lots of people looking after it. And he learned from OER to, you know, make sure that any images that he uses are allowed to be used. He's, you know, he knows about Creative Commons, etc. And he's learned how to, you know, kind of draw his own out of print. Grey's Anatomy is where everything started with this with this textbook. Well, it's not exactly an open, it's not an OER because it's openish, I would say, because it used to be funded by adverts. Now he has decided to charge for it if you're not in Lester. So that's how he does it. So he puts the fancy stuff where you, you know, you have like a premium model, you know, and in a way I'm just sharing that this is how an ambitious student actually helps other students really with this material. But, you know, it does cost money and how do you keep it going? And so this is how he's doing it. So, you know, to colleagues in Lester, it's free, but to other people to get the really fancy stuff, he'll charge a little bit of money. So that's just showing you, it's, you know, I consider it kind of open, openish, but it's not exactly open. Now, some of our other students, so here's another student, he just made a Wix website and he's sharing out all of his notes to other students and he's so ambitious, he's got his own YouTube channel already, it's going strong. And he shared out everything to help the students to pass the exams and right now it's exam time. So students are all on YouTube and on his website and they're just saying thank you so much, thank you. And, you know, there's a part of me that I think it's great, but I start to get a little bit nervous. And now, and here's another story which I'm going to tell you but I'm not going to, I've got no slide for this. Some of additional students have now kind of gotten this bug of creating platforms. So we've got another student who has created an online platform that shares out all of the students notes that they've written kind of digested of the Lester curriculum, and they're sharing it out to the world. And he's, he's kind of, it's a little money spinner for him in some way, I don't know how. And there's a, so our staff, and we're all a little bit struggling with this because we had to have a discussion with the student that, okay, there is such a thing as intellectual property. And the more you share about the course, you know, our staff are being paid to write that course it's their intellectual property. It also belongs to the university, and it's not exactly kosher to be sharing it out to the entire world. And so we kind of had to have to keep going back and forth about that. So that's, and there's there's another case of of a student who's created a platform which sort of shares out all the different student societies in medicine. But now it's sort of like a gateway a gatekeep, his site is sort of like the gatekeeper site. And so, people aren't quite sure if they're happy about that I mean that there's created functionality, but it's a little bit of control that's being imposed so these are some. Yeah, I see some comments, nuance discussions to be had about this so we're basically experience it's great to create things with students students, you know, not only are they their peers. They know what it's like to learn this stuff. Let me show you something that's been created by one of our students so we're using this right now. This is a little module in top hats. We're using this for pre clinical and I don't know if you could see it it's sorry it's not that great but you can see there's it's explaining how to do a cardiovascular exams you've got the video. You've got the checklist, and then you've got some questions. And because this is done in top hats. You know you can ask me about that if you're interested in that software. The students can answer the questions and it's collected in a portal. How they did on these quizzes how they how they answered. And yes we've had higher year students create these for the lower year students students are they know how it feels to not understand the topic they use. They use language that each other can understand they they have the energy they sometimes make the videos look like tick tock so it's more more kind of more fun. So it's great to work with students to create materials but you do have these issues that arise so you know students kind of. They're so excited and ambitious they don't understand about intellectual property or copyright you have to talk to them about it. Also they might not be correct correct students, you know have to staff would need to check this stuff over. But if it's initiated by the students the staff sort of start to resent it because you know we've got enough to do than to help you with your new app. So, but it's great for the students to do this because they're teaching and creating. So, you know, nobody wants to shut them down because they really are learning from this. So, so that's actually that's my situation. And I wonder if anyone else has come across these sorts of things, or if anybody has. You know, in the end I would like to kind of come up with a bit of a framework for working together with students in an open way. I just wonder if there's any suggestions out there if anybody else has considered these kinds of issues to raise. I definitely have had experiences I mean we're looking at this at Kent and I think this is something it would be useful to come back to the end if we've got some time for a sort of broader discussion of all the issues. But I think that that thing that you've pointed out here between different perceptions of what is acceptable behavior and what isn't and that whole conceptualization of intellectual property. It's quite different from a student from an academic from from a university or education manager's perspective so I think it will be really yes really good to get other people's experiences on that. But yeah, but that really makes sense to me so thank you very much. Were you going to hand over to Ella was she going to say something or did we want to throw it over to discussion at this stage. I am happy to hand over to Ella. I was I was I'm a little bit unclear if we were going next but but that's it for me on this so thanks thanks guys. No to raise I think I think you know it's really that you picked this up at the end as well. Because I think it relates directly to some of the issues we've been discussing on the list copy seeker mailing list as well about you know student created content and the kind of ethics of you know obviously encouraging students to be creative and to do this. But some of the concerns there might be when students are as you say sort of taking resources created by their teacher and then potentially putting them on other platforms where you know it's an it's it's it's it's copyright infringement and it's it's also kind of you know usually the rules and regs that they signed up to as a student. You know which says that these are teaching materials for your own private non commercial research not not for you to pop on a platform and try and make some money out of but you know it's kind of how we get that balance right and explain that to students about what is open and what is kind of more closed and and I think some of this so often comes from students just not understanding copyright on on a lot of levels. They do always rewrite it. So it's never a simple cut and paste as far as I know. Yeah. And yet there is intellectual property in even in the outline of things and you know how the curriculum is laid out and you know so it's there's a nuance there so. And I would say that it's a nuance where intellectual property policies at universities don't always help. They don't help by actually making it clear. And I think there's an awful lot of the reason for that is because there's so much focus on outputs from research that can be commercialized. That's why really universities were incentivized to get on top of intellectual property and have positions on it. So that's clearly a tension here with open education because it's not necessarily on the radar at most educational institutions. That's a thing that needs to be thought about holistically in conjunction with all those other issues. And from my perspective when these kinds of issues get raised a student is doing something and they're sharing it on the Internet. It's sort of well is have they broken the rules. This is a compliance issue rather than a OK. Let's think more holistically about how how we want to support openness in some contexts and not in others and and involving involving all those students and the staff and others in a conversation about what what we want. Practice to look like and and policy the supporting practice at this point. Yeah it's great to see Leo's here actually in a collection of participants and he has some really great insights into this sort of area this policy area which where it's always tricky. But what I what I would point to and this is something that comes up a time and time again in the open education community is that we are encouraged to put people in boxes. We're encouraged to put students in a box and say students must do X and must not do why. And in fact those students are with you maybe for three four or five years. They're going to go on being learners we hope having got a passion for learning within their API. And they need to understand how to operate more broadly and increasingly they're doing that digitally. So we need to be part of that education process not just for students actually for staff as well who also find this very thorny. But things like the practice of using Creative Commons licensing and understanding how it works that that's built upon copyright and an understanding of copyright. So there are lots of things we could be doing already if you're aware of the Creative Commons certificates. They're available the content is downloadable you can put them on your moodle you can make self access courses already. So I think there are lots of things we could be doing already to actually help foster that dialogue and make sure that people feel valued. You know, even such things as using Creative Commons licenses on your practitioner materials. It's absolutely clear what can be used and in what way those resources can be used. So yes please please do get in touch and be part of that conversation that we're having. It's not a matter of open versus closed. It's very much a continuum. And we're getting great work here from Catherine Cronin and many others. But certainly in Ireland we're seeing some leading thinkers on open practice and how we can better understand it. Yes, if I could come in here. Yeah, just there's a couple of questions. I think Emily Hudson's been asking about getting students involved in creating content for her course. I don't know Emily if you want to speak or if you just want a response to the question. I've popped something in the chat about the RAISE network, which is a student engagement network. It's kind of crossing into a slightly different you kind of, you know, you've got areas about teaching students about copyright and plagiarism and all those kinds of issues which many librarians are involved in. But there is a wider network of projects which were very much about a student led curriculum and getting students involved in the creation of materials. I went to the RAISE conference a couple of years ago when I worked on a student engagement project. So that's definitely something to look at. But your question specifically is a concern about students plagiarising content from materials such as things like lecture transcripts and, you know, whether everything then has to go through, turn it in and stuff like that. I don't know if anybody wants to pick up to raise to raise Ella, if anyone wants to say anything about that. I mean, obviously, it's a kind of key area. Librarians teach a lot about plagiarism. I would certainly deal with that. Sorry, this is Theresa, by the way, I would certainly deal with that. It's very much an assessment design issue that, you know, you can, you know, you can design assessments that are not easily plagiarised. And there needs to be, there's not enough assessment literacy generally within our staff populations. And we need to have those discussions, you know, what makes a good design, what makes a good assessment. Emily, you've got your hand up. Do you want to respond to that? Yeah. Yes. Hope you can hear me now. We can. Yes. I think that the thing for us is that it's not that the entire answer is plagiarised. But if you're talking about a law assessment where students are required to describe what was said in the cases as part of their assessment, they end up pastishing descriptions from here and there and everywhere. So it's actually, I'd be very keen to hear more about assessment designs that don't have that problem. Because I actually, I have a feeling there just comes a point at which if you're getting students, as I said, to engage with, in our instance, legal materials, there is just so much scope for them to plagiarise things. And as I said, it's not entire huge chunks of text. It's bits and pieces being drawn together from everywhere. And we're doing a lot to try and train students in good academic practice and writing and so on and so forth. But I've got lots of colleagues who want to be back in exam rooms with students doing invigilated exams, because we're just really, like, we can't find a good answer to this at the moment. I certainly don't. I don't think the college wants to go through down the route of, like, a proctoring and having students spied on through their webcam. So it was just something which we are really concerned about in relation to academic integrity. It's also a huge issue. The issue which draws on this aspect of student-created materials, but sort of also some of the materials we're creating as well. So it's a broader issue. I think one of the things that we certainly had to do was to look at an assessment criteria. So because obviously you haven't got equivalent in a way of an open book exam, so what are you giving credit for? Are you looking for citations? Are you looking for analysis? You know, it really comes down to the practitioners themselves, analyzing what they're assessing and how they're assessing. And in many cases, certainly in languages, it meant throwing out our usual assessment criteria up to a point and actually redesigning. And I appreciate that's not something anybody wants to do at a point when, you know, we're in COVID and we're trying to deal with so many other things. But collectively, across professional organizations, it is something that can happen. You know, we do tend to be stuck in our silos, so we're trying to find answers within our organization or within our discipline. And sometimes we need to look across disciplines, which is really what the open-ed sig is all about. Connecting those discussions in different places internationally and also in terms of different institutions. And I think just to come in on this, I think a key area where we've been talking about this, that there is perhaps a lack of nuance and understanding is the intellectual property and is the copyright side of things. I pick up on what we've got on screen from Therese's slide here about stealing intellectual property from the teacher. I mean, I would take a fairly pedantic thing about the stealing versus infringing of intellectual property because intellectual property isn't actual real property that you could steal. But it's something that people, that's what they talk about. And I think when we're talking about copyright, for me copyright is a tool that can be used to do certain things in certain contexts. And if we see plagiarism and cheating on exams or contract cheating as a copyright issue, we miss the point really because it's an important factor in a broader discussion about what are acceptable behaviors. And I think that's where the challenge comes because you need lots of different people with different levels of expertise and to come together to work out how we deal with these and how we avoid tying ourselves in knots about what, you know, particular licenses or what copyright laws or who owns what, that's important to work out as a fundamental thing. But if we get stuck and bogged down in that, we're moving away from a broader discussion about how we want to, how learning and teaching to take place, how we want to encourage students to think creatively and work creatively. I think that's the challenge, really, that the moment my experience is we've raised this issue, it's come up in relation to contract cheating and course hero and stew docu and those sites. And I'm trying to reframe this within Kent as a let's think about openness. Let's think about those questions more broadly rather than there's a problem, people are breaking the rules, and let's find a way to clamp down on it because there's so much nuance in there. So I guess the question I wanted to come back to to members of the Theresa to raise and another and anyone else really who's involved in in openness here is, have you got experiences of bringing that understanding what we would deter we call copyright literacy about ethical, you know, knowledge is knowledge skills and behaviors, bringing it back into that openness space and talking about how it fits in with policy and how it fits in with practice. These kind of situations that I've described have led to some really, really good discussions amongst staff and students together. So for that, I am really thankful. It's given me a chance to give some quick teaching about creative commons, you know, in imaging and stuff like that. So yeah, it has opened the door to some good. It's just that as time goes on, new incarnations of these issues develop and we kind of it basically just forces us to keep keep discussing it, which I think is a good thing. Thanks, thanks for that. And I think this is where it may be that, you know, obviously we're having this discussion now. But we might be able as as the the call sig to be able to bring some of that expertise around copyright and looking at how we are looking in our institutions of that question to try to to move things forward. So, but I think I think actually Chris, this is kind of also why we we we've been writing, haven't we, about copyright literacy and how it relates to other literacies, whether you want to call it information digital academic literacy. And I think this is actually a really clear area where it is overlapping massively with questions about ethics and how you communicate and share and kind of what it means within a discipline to use evidence from other sources and kind of explaining that to students. Because I think, you know, in law, they will need to use case law as evidence as, you know, and I can see why the temptation might be to just be, you know, they're looking for the model answer to kind of follow where's the case law just put that in. And if that's not what, you know, you want lawyers to do in the future, if you do want them to do something more than that, then you have to think about designing an assessment that perhaps, you know, involves, I don't know, an element of their own reflections and things where, you know, you can't plagiarize. I mean, none of the assessments that are on my modules really would be able to be plagiarized because of the kind of the requirement for anyone who's doing any of my assessments to include that level of what does this mean for me and my practice and that element of reflection. So it would be, you know, I don't want a theoretical essay, because I want people to be reflective practitioners. I'm kind of going off on one of it. I think it does. It links to just seeing Leo's comment about how and following on from what Therese said is that this needs to be discussed and negotiated all of these questions discussed and negotiated rather than thinking they're going to be solved. And that actually makes me reflect on the conversation that I had with colleagues or with a colleague a couple of weeks back and I was talking about one of the tricky copyright questions that we as a community deal with all the time. And I was saying, and I use, I think I use the word resolution. Now, how can we resolve this? And the thing is, well, you can't. I mean, this is life. You don't resolve life. The only point which you resolve it is the point that it's over. And I think it's just keeping all of those points together and keeping the right people in touch with each other and trying to frame the conversation in the right way because otherwise try to lock down something and the world is changing all the time. Isn't it? I love that point, Chris. You can't resolve life. The only point at which life gets resolved is when there is no life left and surely that's not what we want. Can I ask a question actually, Theresa? Just, I'd really like to sort of jump in here about involvement in your community because in the library community, there's a huge open access community. People who work in this area of kind of helping and supporting researchers, of looking after this kind of funding that's available through APCs and things like that and advising about what research funding councils want. And I just wondering, you know, it always feels to me like that the open education community really would benefit from having more of these people involved. And does that, you know, is that something, you know, that you think you mentioned open data that seems and the open textbook issue. Those seem like really important issues where we really do need to get library community engaged much more in your SIG as well. Rather than just having those conversations about it more from that kind of, you know, how do we support researchers to understand, you know, the kind of open access for publishing. I'm going to come back on pronouns. There is no my community. There is no, this is not a community that I am in charge of. This is just I am one of many people who are active in the open education community and all of those people who are active in terms of librarians or people involved in OER are of course part of our community. We wouldn't have it any other way. So there are no barriers. It is totally open. And if we need discussions, which clearly we do perhaps around assessment, particularly as we come out of COVID, you know, our focus has been very much on actually supporting people mentally through the whole COVID process and showing just how the inequalities that have been often hidden within our societies have become very obvious and very big during COVID. And we've been focusing on that, hence the open COVID for Ed Pledge. But, you know, as we come out of this phase, we need to have deeper discussions around things such as the ebook SOS movement. You couldn't have timed that better, Leo, because that reminds me of that whole discussion. And if you're already involved in it, we will host a webinar for those discussions. That's really what we're here for. So the committee really wants to provide those safe spaces for those discussions. And as Chris said, we won't resolve them, but we will facilitate the discussion and we will hopefully move things forward. And, you know, a lot of this is just a shared ongoing activity. You know, it's only when you meet those, and Therese has provided beautiful illustration of those practical issues. When we meet those thorny issues, we're then able to sort of open up for discussion if people feel safe to have those discussions. So that's very much what we're here for. And, you know, don't feel you have to join anything in particular. Just, you know, follow us on Twitter, join the conversation in the gisk. And as I say, as a very small committee, all we try to do is to catalyse those discussions. No, thank you. Thanks for that clarification as well. Because I totally didn't mean that yours was some sort, it was your community and it was a kind of separate thing. I didn't mean it like that. It kind of, yeah, it was my inarticulate Friday morning. No worries. No worries. Grace, talking to a linguist is the issue there. Sorry about that. I think what we've explored here is some really sort of fundamentally important points about, you know, clearly an overview of what your group is doing and the sorts of issues that you talk about. And we know that there are the links there between openness and copyright. And if I can get Jane to drop a link into Greg Walter's blog post, which was summing up from the OER session would be useful because there we talk about the fact that copyright and licensing is one part of the openness discussion. Maybe you could mute your mic as well while you type. Thank you. But I think what we've seen here is there's a very strong link in terms of intent, what we're trying to do with that with our relevant special interest groups. We're trying to get away from binary concepts, open versus closed. And similarly with copyright, we often have right versus wrong, and we have this issue with risk management being a key part of it. So I think this is a beginning of a beautiful relationship, I would say. So, and also to say this lays the ground for the next session that we have in our schedule, where we have the US team that are looking at codes of best practice and use of copyright material in open educational resources. But I just want to say thank you so much to Theresa, Therese and Ella, sorry, you couldn't get your mic to work, but thank you for introducing your work. I know it's a lot of interest to a lot of people on the call, and we'll definitely be looking at opportunities to see where we can feed into each other's work. Thank you. Thanks Chris and Jane for having us. It's been. I'll meet you all as well. And, you know, I just want to see that just mail OECIG lists of grow and Twitter followers grow so that we can really widen out these discussions and, you know, bring us the issues. You know, where are you having the problem so that we can sort of distill those and get get a relevant sort of leaders of discussion to together. Absolutely. And Theresa, just we'd really like to see you and if you could help advertise the session we're doing on the 11th of June. I think the codes of best practice, the work that's been done in the US around fair use. The one on open educational resources is a massively overlapping area of interest for both our groups. So, and I think after that session, it would be really good to pick up a conversation about where we go with this. In the UK, because they're very keen because it's about open educational resources, the team who developed it have already got a kind of Canadian slant on it. So how the code work under a fair deal in Canadian law. And we would like to do something about the UK as well. So I think we'd really like to pick that up with you if that's if that's something your groups interested in. Absolutely very, very, very happy to co promote and, yeah, to widen those discussions to one of the biggest issues I suppose really we have with with copyright is the fact that it is national, it's applied at a national level. And obviously these things may make differences to the practitioner. The work I did in this area was actually collaborating with someone in Australia is and it's, you know, it's interesting to get those different perspectives. And thanks Leo, the open ed sig list is the one that you're looking for. Yeah, that's another list, but I've just popped it in there because I saw Sally's message. So it's called the open ed sig so that I've just put the link to the just now list which I only signed up to myself for last week. But it was a good reminder, actually that we think we're kind of all joined up and we're talking to each other and actually I've immediately picked up on some really interesting discussions happening on your list. So, okay, it's 12 o'clock, but thank you for joining us. Chris, we've just got a couple of quick things, haven't we to run through. Yes, yes. Just to say that we are, we've talked about the next session on the 11th. We were looking for suggestions of future topics we know there's been discussions about what we do for the next academic year and clearly we we've had a lot of there's been a lot of focus on the CLA's license extension, which comes to an end at the end of July. So the CLA and their members do not plan to extend that that was the agreement that they reached. And CNAC have been talking to CLA about where where that leaves us. And I think this is if there would is there's interest in talking about that specifically or more broadly how we're looking ahead to 21 22 and getting together online resources resources as we move out of the pandemic I get the sense there is some interest in talking about that. Then, yeah, I think what we'll probably do is get ideas from people on copy seek on this to see what they want to talk about. But we're going to have a break for so it's going to be three weeks till the next webinar. So we don't have one on the 4th of June. So just just to kind of let you know our next one will be the 11th of June. We've also been talking to Creative Commons about an issue related to images and sort of the various. Yes, yes. And so that's another topic that we're hoping to organize a webinar probably in July about but we'll post on less list copy seek about that one. And we've also been talking to Emily about putting on another event or so. So that's we've got some ideas in the pipe. And also just to pick up on the fact that Emily you've put quite a chunky question. We didn't really get a chance to look at. I think it may be that this whole area of discussion we might want to return to not necessarily as a full webinar, but as part of the cross working between between the two groups. But there is lots in the pipeline, definitely more to come. Yeah. Anyway, we're going to leave people with one last thing because it's a really exciting thing coming up this weekend. Isn't there there's something date for your diary things. Yes, absolutely. I'm sure everyone was spending their Saturday night eagerly writing their contribution to the old sea annual conference. Yes, yes, yes. I think people thought you were going to say something else Chris on Saturday about Saturday night. But I've certainly got something trying to frantically finish hopefully by the end of today actually for the conference. But yeah, the old conference 7th of the 9th of September. And there we go. But Saturday night is of course Eurovision. Yeah, we had that. We did this last year, didn't we? We did. We did consider trying to do a short rendition for those of you that hung around at the end. Yeah, we were dancing. Yeah, yeah. And I'm going to put that skirt on that you could whip off. We might have to. I think ice pops. We would definitely use a musical loop in. Oh, we're doing karaoke in there. We are doing karaoke. Yeah. So there we go. We've stopped the recording now, I think, and we'll leave you all there.