 Yeah. Okay. The appointed hour of five o'clock p.m. Having been reached, I welcome everyone to this meeting of the Amherst Design Review Board. My name is Catherine Porter as chair of the Amherst Design Review Board. I call this meeting to order. Pursuant to Governor Baker's March 12, 2020 order suspending certain provisions of the open meeting law. GLC 30A section 18 and the governor's March 15, 2020 order imposing strict limitations on the number of people that may gather in one place. This public hearing of the town of Amherst Design Review Board is being conducted via remote participation. No in-person attendance of members of the public will be permitted, but the public can attend tonight's virtual meeting by using the zoom login information provided on the meeting agenda listed on the meeting calendar, which provided on the town of Amherst website. We will begin with a roll call of the members of the Design Review Board who have been impaneled for the consideration of the items on tonight's agenda. Board members, please say aye or yes to acknowledge your attendance for the record. Catherine Porter, aye. Lindsey. Schnarr. Hi. Okay, Janet Markward. Yes. Erica Zekos. Also in attendance is Marine Pollock, planner and staff liaison to the Design Review Board. The Design Review Board and its accompanying zoning regulations were created by town meeting in October 1983. The charge and purpose of the Design Review Board under section 3.2 of the zoning bylaw is to reserve and enhance the town's cultural, economic and historical resources by providing for a detailed review of all changes in land use, the appearance of structures and the appearance of sites which may affect these resources. The Design Review Board exercises this responsibility by providing design review and recommendations to private applicants and permit granting boards within specific overlay zoning districts in the town center. The Design Review Board overlay district, no the design review overlay district and the town common design review overlay district. Design Review was also provided for town departments and permit granting boards with respect to town projects anywhere in Amherst which will result in substantial alteration to the form or appearance of a structure or site. All design review board meetings are open to the public and are recorded by town staff. Each meeting recording will be uploaded to the town of Amherst YouTube channel for public viewing. The procedure is as follows. The petitioner presents the application to the board during the meeting after which the board will ask questions for clarification or additional information. After the board has completed its questions, the board will deliberate. If the board feels it has enough information and time, it will decide upon recommendations for each respective application. Once the board has voted on its recommendations, the staff liaison will type up the recommendations for distribution to the applicant. Board applicable land use board and building commissioner. Tonight's agenda for September 8, 2020 is as follows. DRB FY 2021-01 Jones Library 43 Amity Street to review the proposed location and layout of the temporary tent located at 43 Amity Street. DRB FY 2021-02 Town of Amherst various locations to review the proposed locations and design at the proposed way finds way finding signs. That completes the opening statement. Do we have somebody here from the library. Yes, let me, I'm bringing up Sharon Sherry. I'm going to make her a panelist George Hicks. And then another person is labeled as Jones Library. Sharon, are you, are you there? Hold on a second. Sorry. I'm here. Hi everybody. Hi. Hello. Hi everyone. Thanks for joining us. I'm actually going to, George is actually going to be the one who gives the presentation and I'll just be here for follow up questions. If you have any. Sounds good. Yeah, that's me. Do you want me to just go right ahead? Yes. Go ahead. Ready. Can you hear me? Okay. Yes. I've been using so many different computers for zoom meetings these past several months. So I'm going to be the one who does the same thing. If I'm not going to work. Right. Yeah. I figured in case one dies. The other ones there. So yeah. Anyways. We submitted an application in order to put a temporary tent in front of the library so that we can offer as many library services as possible right now. We do not have computers at home or do not have internet at home. That's one of the biggest concerns we've had. And we have hopes that if we put a tent in front of the library as a temporary structure that we can at least provide those services right now as well as other potential services. The tent itself. I believe on the application we had it as a 12 by 40. So talking to Rob Mora and Jeremiah and the fire department, we can actually increase the width of that to 14 feet. My reasoning for going with the 12 foot was that I wanted to ensure that we had enough space on both sides in order for for tethering and all of that. We have about 20 feet in front of the library, not a lot of frontage in front of the library. We have about 20 feet before we start hitting garden in front of the library. But if we opted to go with a steel frame tent versus a pole tent, we can save some width and we can go a little bit wider. So the actual tent that we'd be looking to install is 14 feet by 40 feet. The tent is really in the only spot that we have on library property that's level and open enough in order to put a tense. So if you're facing the library. Thank you. If you're facing the library, it would be to the right hand side of the stone sidewalk going in the front door. And the tent would go from that sidewalk to a few feet short of where the outside book drop is. And the plan is that people would enter one side and go out the other side. In order to keep us legal, you know, two sides of the tent need to be open at all times. We do have to maintain social distancing inside the tent. So with a tent of this size, we can have 10 patrons seated at tables. And they would still be socially distance six feet and there would be enough room for a staff member. We have already looked into electrical and what it would take to put it out there. I've already run by the initial concept with the electrical inspector in town and they gave it their blessing with a, you know, a couple of questions. So yeah, that's where we're at right now. The town itself is opting to purchase the tent using COVID funds. So the library isn't purchasing the purchasing the tent ourselves, it's going to be a town owned tent. And Jeremiah LaPlante is in the process of purchasing that tent. So we don't have a specific installation date if everything gets approved. So hopefully that you will approve and endorse this and we'll keep moving forward. We're trying to get it all done as soon as possible so we can get as much done before. Unfortunately snow flies and we won't be able to use a tent out front anymore. So with that I'm open to questions comments anything like that. Is the idea that all the stations will have computers or laptops or something at them is it primarily for that. Right primarily it's going to be used for laptops. The laptops have been purchased already. And at the end of the day you know all the equipment will come back inside the building and the tables will get taken down we'll be using specific folding tables for this. And that will be lightweight and easy to bring in and outside so the tent will be empty. When we're not providing computer service. And that initially was a slight concern with us so we talked to the police department about it and we know that they can step up the patrols and there's tents all over downtown right now so it's something that they're aware of and that's something they keep tabs of anyways. Great. Thank you. Thanks Erica. I just want to say I'm so happy to see this happening I know how valuable the library is to folks in town and to provide this service that's been absent for so many is really critical and I am happy to support it and I do have some questions though and I think in your application the the tent would be open. I'm sorry I can't remember which sides of the tent will be open and I'm just thinking about flow and also about signage. Because there's a there's a look and feel to that that we'd like to see be consistent and informative. The short ends of the tent would be open. The long ends of the tent would be close so the side of the tent facing Amity Street would be would have a side on it. And the narrow ends would be open one would be an entrance one would be an exit what we were planning on using. While I was collecting all kinds of covid stuff through March and May I came across these large yellow plastic arrows that I figured I would use for entrance and exit it's you know it's a it's a universal symbol. It's not the most gorgeous thing but it will definitely get the point across. Obviously there would be a staff person in there as well to help direct the flow to make sure that people are only going in one way and coming out another way. Will there be any anything on the outside of the tent that says that this is temporary extension of the Jones library into the lawn. We haven't gotten that far. We could certainly come up with a banner or something. Right now we're relying on an awful lot on social media and Internet to do our advertising but of course if people don't have Internet access or computer they wouldn't see all of that so yeah there's definitely a plan to have some kind of signage and a way to let people know what this is. I mean, we're also thinking just having a tent outside is going to make people curious and want to come in and see what's going on. But yeah definitely there need there does need to be some kind of signage. Marine. Yes. I'm muted. We can hear you. Okay yeah I wanted to ask about the were you having any auxiliary heating in there or you're really discounting on good weather to make sure people can be comfortable and then when it gets cold you will close the will take the take the tent down or just close it for the season. We are hopeful to go as long as we possibly could I mean we're all from New England we know what could happen. We could have snow on October. It could be 80 degrees in the middle of November so we're kind of playing it by ear. We did specify the tent out so that if we opted to put some type of space heater in there that we could do it. We certainly you know once it gets too cold. For people to be comfortable we will have we will have to stop using it. Well I agree with Erica. I mean, it's really something that we need and we can argue about it. It's so essential for so many patrons to have that access to a computer. Does a tent have flaps on all sides or so allow for air flow or how what are you thinking about. Right, we specify the tent that that we're purchasing it with all four sides. We can only use two sides. The sides though they can be raised if we wanted to say if we had an especially warm day we they're all you know adjustable you could either lift it or, you know, fold back half of it. The sides aren't permanent. So, if we wanted to open the thing wide open we could as long as you know the sun glare doesn't affect the computers themselves, but the entire narrow sides would be wide open so it should provide plenty of airflow. Any other comments from it. I also think this is a great great service that you're providing and wondered if it sounds like the tent is the plan but we've seen a lot of really creative approaches to advertising and just kind of community support in some of the outdoor spaces that have been set up downtown. So, if there is an opportunity to perhaps increase the just the way in which this this tent or whatever kind of enclosure or structure that you put up could could include some kind of like playful or library oriented reading oriented community oriented art or information I think that that would be a nice touch. Yeah, I totally agree with that it's it's been a learning process for all of us. Just just a simple fact of getting it out there for people who are picking up and returning books right now. Just coming up with creative signage like this book is out now and you can check it out and just figure out where those signs are most effective we've moved it around three times so far and the librarians are constantly thinking of ways that we can promote this and promote everything else that we do at the same time so yeah I think that if we get a tent out there I think you'll see a lot of creative advertising. That that will definitely get it out there to the public. Jan, go ahead. I'll move that we approve the library's application for a temporary tent on the front lawn. Okay, it's been moved. Is there a second? Okay, Erica, second. All in favor indicate by saying aye. Aye. You do too. I need to do a roll call. I need to do a roll call. Catherine Porter, aye. Lindsay Schnarr. Aye. Okay. Janet. Aye. And Erica. Aye. Okay. I guess it's unanimous. Thank you so much. Yeah. Thank you all so much. Okay. Thank you. Okay. I'm going to pull Ben. And Chris. So this is for the. Signage. Wait, finding signs. Should we just start? I read this. Go ahead. No, you don't need to read that. Hello, how are you everybody? Okay. I'm so glad Seth could join us. He's our designer. So I'm Chris Brester planning director. And I wanted to give me a bit of history about this project. For a while. The proposal will be presented by Ben Breger after I give this a little bit of history. So we started working on this way finding. Design sign. In 2015. With a grant that we received from the state. And we partnered with the bid. And we hired a designer called Mark Feverman. He's a designer based in Boston. And he was called upon to design a way of finding sign system for downtown. And at the end of that project, he came up with a family of signs that we liked very much, but we weren't fond of the design that Mr. Feverman came up with. So. In 2017. The town hired Seth Gregory based in North Hampton. And he was the one who developed a sign design that the town preferred. And in July of 2017, three years ago, little more than three years ago, we presented Seth Gregory's design family of signs to the design review board. And we received. And then in the spring of 2018. We received funding from town meeting to fabricate and install the signs and we proceeded to work further with Seth. To revise and refine the design. In the meantime, the bid contracted to fabricate and install the signs that are currently in the roundabout at triangle street and East Pleasant street. And these signs are different from the ones that were presented to the DRB in 2017. So you're looking at an image of the, the roundabout sign here. In the spring of 2019, we presented a revised welcome sign and a post directional sign to the DRB. And then do new design as you see here was similar to that installed by the bid and different from the sign that Seth had originally designed. So when we presented this to the DRB, the DRB came forth with a lot of feedback. The DRB preferred the signs that were first reviewed by them in 2019. The DRB didn't like the butterscotch color of the lettering or the banding at the bottom of this sign. The DRB didn't like the rust color background, but preferred the darker brown espresso color of the background and the green band below the sign that instead of the yellow band, the DRB wanted a sharper contrast between the brown background and the ghost image of the town logo and the word welcome. And the DRB preferred a band that sits below the sign rather than the band that is part of the sign. So we're back to present a revised welcome sign with revisions based on your comments from March of 2019. And these revisions will bring the design back closer to the 2017 version. I don't believe that you had any comments about the design of the post directional signs. I think that's pretty similar to what you saw in 2017. In addition, we're presenting locations for the welcome signs and the post directional signs. And we'd like your recommendations and comments about the locations. So now if you don't have any questions for me, I'd like to ask then to present the new sign design and their locations. Great. Thanks Chris for that background. So my name is Ben. I'm a planner with the town. And I'm glad Seth is here as well. Who's the designer of the signs. So I'm planning on kind of just walking through the locations for the welcome signs, the new design for the welcome signs, and then the locations for the directional post signs. And yeah, Seth, you can feel free to jump in at any time. But I'll, I'll move through this now. So this is the new design for the welcome signs. It has a darker brown background, more contrast with the lettering and then a green band at the bottom that's separated from the sign itself. And we're proposing for these around town at some of the key gateways to downtown. This would say, you know, obviously this arrow would change depending on where, which direction you're approaching town center. And there's one sign where the Emily Dickinson house is that would say town center and Emily Dickinson museum as banners below here. So maybe I'll just do a quick flashback to the previous sign just to kind of, so you guys can see the differences. And I think, you know, Seth is proposing, you know, a stone, stone wall at the foundation just to have a nice base as well. So I'm happy to like stop here if there's any comments or comments. I can also move along for the, you know, the locations as well. But. Noise on this. Did you drop the welcome to on purpose? Or was it just forgotten? I'm sure that was intentional. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Two to three years now, but perhaps Chris does or. We can recall. I like having the two there because otherwise it's like, welcome Amherst. It's certainly something that can go back in. That's not something. I figured maybe it was just dropped off. Yeah. I actually just so like, I think it's, I think I could, I can imagine it just being like a welcome. And there's something. I can see both sides. I can see that kind of logic of the phrasing welcome to you. But I also kind of appreciate just the simplicity of just the welcome. So. Right. I can imagine an intentional. Approach to that as well. Just a thought. It's better than it's saying Amherst, Massachusetts welcomes you. I think the logic behind this approach is that you're, you're certainly going to read Amherst first. So. The welcome to right would be creating a phrase welcome to Amherst, but you're highly unlikely to actually read it in that order. And so then it becomes a little awkward. So in this way, you know, anticipating that, that experience of someone reading the sign, it's, it's sort of just treated as an aside. Right. It's just, it's complimentary to the information you're getting. And it's not intended as like a. A linear phrase that you're reading. Well, I have to say. This is an improvement over the one that's down by the. Rotary. First time I saw that when I nearly wrecked my car, because we had never had any. Input into that sign. But actually the, the. What you're referring to, Jan. And then the town shield or. To me, they're just blurs. If anybody's driving by, I, I didn't even know what that was until I got my. Really got up close. I guess you have to have it. But how many people are even going to see that's welcome. That just looks like, you know, just. Static in the background. And then the town shield. I don't know if you need it at all. But that's, you know, I wouldn't vote against it. Everybody supported it. But. I don't know if you need it at all. But that's, you know, I wouldn't vote against it if everybody. I don't know if you need it at all. I don't know if you need it at all. I don't know if anybody supported it, but. I'm not sure all that stuff in the background. You don't see things. But if you're sitting at a signal or you're walking. Or you're getting off a bus. Okay. In another location, I think you would. And I believe the shield is to coordinate across all the signs to have a. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, maybe. I think too that. You know, the signs are. Yeah. Those of us who live here. Also we'll see them daily. And so the fact that there's kind of a layered quality to the design or richness to it, you know, makes it. Something that. You know, you're willing to spend some time with you're willing to see over and over again. It isn't merely for. The visitor. Emerges a little bit. Yeah. So I see that point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't, I don't know the. Who made that. Brown. Is there some reason with the whole color palette? You know, That might have been an option. Why you went to brown. Hello. I respect. I'm as far as colors. Are you, are you referring to this darker one is brown? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this. Well, my impression is that the, so this was more or less the intended original design that the. This is a, maybe a shade darker than what was originally proposed. The roundabout sign was developed with the, with the. With the bed, right? With the. And so there was some alterations made. And so, So you're going to replace those roundabout signs with this one? Is that the plan? If we get enough money, we might be able to do that. I think it's a start there first. Obviously, you know, I really don't like those signs. I don't like the color, but they look. They look like they've just slapped up on a piece of board. You know, they don't even have a, well, I won't get into it, but I don't like that. I don't like that. I don't like that. May I just say those weren't installed by the town. Joint effort of the bid. And I believe that one of the developers and property owners in the downtown. Oh, is that how they came about? Yeah. So that was. I think it was separate project. Yeah. Obviously. Town is doing. Yeah. I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, they were anticipating parents and families coming into town, not knowing where the downtown or the town center was. So they jumped the gun in a way. Yeah. I mean, there should be some sort of legislative. I know we have a lot of laws, but that should be a good one too. You can't put up a sign without somebody giving permission. I'm with you. I mean, that's just maybe me. So I think just in the interest of time, focusing on what you're presenting here, I mean, I do, I do really like the response that you have shown us in terms of the feedback we provided with the. The separation of the band that really relates back to the overall town way finding signs. And I think that that's a helpful element. And it's, it's very clear. The text is Chris. I think the design is simple. So, you know, I think that we're potentially responding a little bit to the fact that there was some concern over the color. That hasn't been modified. And so. While I don't have a strong opinion about the colors. As they're presented here. One thing that does kind of catch my eye, just from a design standpoint, that's probably maybe, maybe it doesn't bother others, but it's just that the white font of the town center with respect to the kind of cream font of the Amherst, Massachusetts just feels a little bit. Like maybe too close, like the cream versus white. And so I question that just a bit, like, is there a way to, to bring those closer together or perhaps make more contrast so that they don't look like they're kind of trying to be the white versus cream conflict. So that's my only real concern here. Otherwise, I think it, I think it reads clearly and it looks, it looks nice. That was something we brought up last time too with all the other comments was the cream versus the white. I remember talking about this before. And I still think it's a concern. I don't particularly like the cream with the brown. I feel like I remember saying this about meeting. It looks like the 70s. I'd rather just see white. I don't know. On Amherst. I agree. I mean, is that a, so is that a. I thought that we might make that recommendation or are these already. Is it already set in stone that we can't. Always make more changes. I know. The recommendation. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, this particular set and it's gone through a lot of iterations and a lot of review and. The design review board has reviewed it. This is the third time that the design review board has seen us. Though. I think. In the interest of, you know, actually acting on this project, it's probably better to. Not make too many changes at this point. And I'm afraid we're going to lose our funding if we. Dally too much longer. So. I, I feel like. It's probably a good idea to try to get the. White lettering closer to the cream or some balance between the two, but I think making a. A really big change like changing the. Lettering on the big sign to white would be really. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I think it could be a bridge too far. At this point. It could be, it could be worth. So it is the cream color. The same cream that we responded to last time. Chris. Yes. Okay. So, I mean, I think that there is obviously a reason why you held onto it. So I don't know that it's worth us belaboring that. And maybe it's worth considering. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if it's worth the color. For the town center lettering. Or I guess I'm curious if, if that's a given that that. Color is held for the main part of the sign. Like what are, what are people's thoughts on the options for the coloring of the lettering below? I think you could. Tint the white slightly towards the cream, but not that much because then it wouldn't be as visible. It's so small. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just Chris, is this sign going to be one that we discussed? That's going to be at the foot of amity and university. Is that. This sign is going to go in three locations and then a modified version of this sign will go in the fourth location. And Ben might be able to show you the modified version. Well, he's, he's probably going to show you where the three are going. And then where everyone is going by the Dickinson museum. Okay. I guess before we talk about location, I would just, I'll just chime in. And just say that, um, I definitely defer to Chris on process. I don't, I'm not as embedded in, in sort of the nuance of the implications of making changes. But I would say, um, Just purely from an aesthetic point of view, I appreciate that observation. I think it's, um, it's valid. It's not something I had heard before. So that might have gotten lost in translation, but, um, I would be in favor of changing the lettering on the sign to white. And I don't think it would have. Any negative implications or complications for the process, for the fabrication or anything like that. Um, Uh, yeah. And I, so I would, I would prefer to do that than to try to add color to the directional signs because we get into a variety of backgrounds. Um, and, um, Um, Colors and I, I, I'm not as confident in how well those are going to work. Any color we're adding to white or reducing the contrast. And, um, you know, you're just creating some more potential for, uh, Um, you know, clashing of colors with like creams. Plus we've got purple, burgundy green, a couple of blues, you know, other things like that. So, um, Um, I think we were kind of in favor of the, uh, um, Um, um, Um, um, um, Um, Um, Um, um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, The passage that was said to us before the meeting includes the mock-up of the sign in front of the Emily Dickinson Museum with all of the background information, the green of the grass and the brown of the fence and the trees and what have you and I think that it's the distinction between the white and the cream is a little less in your face than what we're seeing here on the plain white background. I don't have a significant issue with it because I see the town center portion of the sign as being related to this other part of the family and it's isolated it's kind of held down below. Yeah, I think I wonder if there, I mean if there is still room for discussion, I would say that my suggestion would be to see if there is a more crisp less buttery cream that might work with that town center signage that's closer to white maybe still has a little warmth. I don't think it's a huge issue and if it's going to you know cause problems with funding Chris I wouldn't push it at the cost of that but I also think that if there is a way to resolve it that isn't a big headache then it might be nice to find a color that works for both that's in the white family. I would agree. I'd like to see it move from that particular butterscotch look. Is there a way that Seth could do that and bring it back to a DRB meeting fairly soon. I can do my end. Can it go by email or does it have to be an open meeting. It could go by email. Okay, so what's the pleasure is that can we put that in the form of recommendation that we would like to see the sign one more time. And then assuming then that we weighed in and agreed that this would be what we see in the new version would be the best that we feel we could do. So you feel like you can see this in an email format and not as a meeting or would you prefer to have it in the meeting. Can we get the same clarity on the email that we have here. Sure, it'll just be the same thing. How about this, how about if, you know, if I receive positive feedback from each of you, then it'll can be done by email if for some reason each of each of you are like, wait a second, discuss this. We could schedule a meeting. We can schedule these pretty quickly. That's right. I don't mean to cause issues but like I think we're going to see the Emily Dickinson sign momentarily and the whole question of white expands as soon as we do that so. So let's take a look at that one. Okay, so I'll move through this slideshow. I think I had like all four locations and I think Emily Dickinson. Oh, there it is. Perfect. Okay. Great to it. So, yeah, this is basically to orient you. This is at the intersection of triangle street and amity street, regular main street triangle and main. This is the sign that's currently there and we'd be replacing that sign with this. You show us the sign that's there now. Yeah. So that has a white background on part of it and a kind of a cream. That's a little faded. Yeah. Well, color of the fence. Can I just ask a quick question. I believe this, if I can remember correctly that the Emily Dickinson Museum was coded as a light tan and the way finding signs. And I, and I believe that the color decisions seem to indicate like different types of location so perhaps like the historic locations were a tan color and other, you know, campus for others. So I wonder about perhaps bringing, bringing that color. And I don't know if we have a quick reference but bringing the color of the historic way finding signs here and that might help. Because I had a similar kind of like moment of pause when I first saw this that the black on white, it just, it reads much more. It kind of feels like a different language, a little out of place compared to the way finding signs which I think have a little more. They relate to each other a little stronger with the softness of tone. So the slide that we saw with the examples of the way finding little flag signs, does that have this color? I mean the, that one. Yeah. Good point. Yeah, it's from. It's supposed to be brown like you see along the highway. You know when you're driving on the highway and you see a historical site. It's supposed to be reminiscent of that color. Why aren't we using that on the, on there then? Well Emily Dickinson, it's a little touchy because they own the Emily Dickinson Museum and they've given us permission to put a sign on their property. And I think they want to stick pretty closely to what their logo is. So we'd have to talk to them about whether they'd be willing to allow us to change the background color here, which is a conversation that we can have with them. See why they wouldn't. They'd still have a logo and the same words. It would just be slightly tinted more like their museum is. What if it were. What if it were tinted the color of the band at the bottom of the sign that's there now. So Ben, can you show that sign again. Yeah, but yeah, there. Yeah, or the color of the fence, which is essentially that. That kind of creamy. Yeah. So we'd have to have that mocked up and then show it to them. What do you think is still with us. Realize that was question was for me to kind of broke up. I mean, I think we're just, you know, we were trying to navigate that conversation with them and their interests. And this was developed before doing the directional, the full directional series that you will maybe get to. And so in the context of other signs right on a post with a bunch of other signs. I think that that queue of the color of the brown color with the historical site, I think is an extra layer that helps people sort through information, especially in a car. Moving, you know, in this case, maybe it's not as crucial because there's not a whole lot of other things being processed at the same time. So, you know, that said, maybe if we want, if we're talking about softening that weight or just trying to trying to create a less a less jarring kind of combination of colors, I could see that logic. So again, I think it's a conversation that we have to have to circle back to them as well. It sounds like I mean, the sign, the whole, the total sign, have the Emily Dickinson. No. It's sort of, I don't know. Seems not quite appropriate for the whole sign troubles me in that location for Emily Dickinson seem like should be a bit more graceful. I mean, not that the old, the old sign looks terribly worn out, but I want, I think this is going to be too late, but maybe what's troubling me is the sharpness of the edges. And if the sign, if we had time to rethink it, I would suggest maybe rounded edges, something that is a more, just a slightly softer approach to the whole thing because, man, I don't know, they're going to like that sign on their property. But if they have to, you know, that's up to them. I feel like. Ian Wald was part of the original group that worked with Seth. Yeah, but that was way back. Yeah, that's right. That was a long time ago. I mean, I think it's as simple as cost, honestly, I think, you know, we had looked at and considered more elaborate forms and things that had more historical, you know, shapes and embellishments. I didn't realize that. Yeah, unfortunate. And we decided to pursue a really. But I mean, I agree with you, you know, if we were starting fresh today and we had unlimited budget, I would, I would certainly want to consider that something with pillars or columns and caps and things. I wasn't thinking of like so much the embellishment is just that it's boy, so rectangular. Part of that is because it's an image that's been imposed across a photo. It won't look that way when it actually is a three dimensional object. I think part of what you're seeing is the fact that it's a layered image. Yeah. I appreciate the slender, really the slenderness of the form and how that relates in a subtle way to the balusters of the fence. I think that there's something. There's really strong simplicity to the to the balusters of the fence. So, I don't know, I think it could be fine. Honestly, I think there is a sharpness to this that sharpness and slenderness and simplicity that that doesn't feel that out of place in my opinion, with respect to the sign I think it's more. I think it's probably what Jan said that it's kind of this image without depth, because it's, you know, it won't be experienced that way. So the quartet and steel, that is that what you're planning to use still. That was the original dream, it's just not, it's not affordable enough. So we're trying to try to mimic that. Yeah, so I think that that aesthetic at least has a kind of aged quality that that does reflect, you know, the historic nature of the town and these So I think personally I just, I'm just visually responding a little, it's just a little the white on black black on white just kind of like catches my eye in a way that feels like it doesn't it doesn't quite really It looks like a sticker kind of like out of context with the with the rest of the sign but otherwise I think it actually looks really nice. What a couple just really simple comments I would say I'm not sure if there wants to be more space between those two signs I think you guys can figure that out I mean I know that you had it all dimensioned in me, I don't know if it makes sense to kind of give them a little more space between the two. But, and then obviously the arrow size would be the same I think it's just an optical illusion that the black looks longer. But obviously those would want to match up in the font size so yeah I think it looks nice other than maybe some of the color colors being a little off. So if I'm hearing you all, it sounds like the board would be interested in playing with that white to make that a little more creamy, if you will, or find a color that's complimentary to the fence, or go back to the family or go back to this sign and use the entrance background or go back to the family of signs slide and look at that brown sign. One thing that's nice about that just and I think we could argue color for a long time but because there's pros and cons either way but I do think one thing that's nice about this is it's dark enough that allows the white to be readable or if we go lighter than we're going to end up with a black lettering in order to get that same kind of contrast so it's just a give and take. I think it would be interesting to see this color with the white and if there's something that kind of relates maybe the tone of it kind of relates back to the signage or sorry the fence color that's there just to kind of blend it or not blend it but like you know relate it back. I think that that could be a nice option. So, just so I'm clear you're suggesting that the Emily Dickinson Museum sign, take on that kind of cocoa color, and then the lettering and the logo, the white, is that what you're suggesting Lindsay. Generally speaking, yes, but I would say that the only caveat is that the white be whatever the white you guys decide on overall from our previous discussion. Yeah. Alternatively, I could imagine that this color, this white becomes like was discussed this kind of softer tan color and then the lettering would need to be black. I do other members feel about Lindsay's suggestion so using sort of like a cocoa color that was shown in the earlier slide for the historical signs, and then using a whatever the finalize cream slash white lettering side lettering color would be worth looking to see if the letters stand out. I like the idea of the background changing but I'm not sure. Lindsay, do you think that the white will pop out? Looks like it stood out pretty well in the way finding signs. I mean I thought that was pretty cool. And it did pretty much in that green one too. Yeah. It will depend on whatever that white becomes. Right. I agree that the lettering on the directional part would stay white and that if anything changed, it would be that the larger hammers sign would have would go lighter than warm cream but we were leaving the white on the other because Seth was saying there's so many different color backgrounds you need that contrast. That wasn't going to change. Yeah. Okay, now we've got two background. We're talking about the Emily Dickinson. I think what I'm hearing is that there's there's a proposed solution that emphasizes all type everywhere on all signs be the same, like whether that ends up being white or an off white of some sort that at least be uniform. I'll throw in some color theory there just to say white is going to look different on every single background color regardless of like of it being the same just because of objects. We weren't saying the big signs and the little signs had to be the same. We were saying the big sign should maybe be not quite so creamy. Yeah. But leave white or black as you were as you will on the small signs for clarity. So that's good to clarify because I was going to come back to you with an option with everything white with the Amherst Massachusetts white and everything staying white on the small signs and then a version where everything's off white. So just like just not pure white just slightly slightly tinted a little bit warmer a little bit tanner not nothing drastic nothing that I would something that I would still feel comfortable in terms of legibility putting out and testing on these different colors but something that's just not white. I think in an ideal scenario those would there would be a single color that worked for both. It may not be totally necessary and it may be unachievable but my feeling is that if we can find one that works well on both that might just simplify and unify the overall sign approach. You do that then the background of the strip that says Emily Dickinson is going to have to be that darker cocoa because you're not going to have enough contrast unless it's dark enough. Park can be black. I feel like, you know, with thinking about the post sign that a great deal of work has gone into providing a consistent message from sign to sign and that when we see blue we understand we're looking for parking. And this is the one place where the Emily Dickinson Museum has a really different approach and that if we are thinking about the whole purpose of way finding and creating that simple package that my first vote would be for this to be white on brown. If that's not something that the Emily Dickinson folks would approve of and we don't know yet because they haven't been asked. Then I think a second choice would be any of the other things that we've talked about but it's clear to me that we want to create a family and stick with it. It might be really beautiful to have that bottom sign be a brownish color with white lettering. Do you know how this brown color relates to this brown color? This seems a little bit like richer almost, right? It's closer to a burgundy. It's got more red in it. Another one is really as close as I could get to like historical. Because it's so familiar and people know to look for it and so it's smart to always build on those associations when we can. And this would be the one, actually I don't know, we haven't been through. I don't think I have clear in my head if any of the other welcome signs are going to have anything besides town center panels on them or not. Okay, so this is our one situation where we're seeing those browns next to each other and hopefully it's, you know, I think it'd be pleasant but, you know, again, I'm leaving the politics to Chris. But I, you know, propose to them, Chris, if you are we're talking about strategizing this right now is, you know, if they if they push back on the white on brown to coordinate with all other signs we show them the whole family we say here's the system and this is why this makes a lot of sense. One concession I can imagine making is that the logo panel, just the square around the logo is white with this with logo so they are sort of like a. There's a consistency in the branding there they have that little square to kind of say okay. Got your brown directional sign and you've got your logo on their pure like no alterations to the logo so that would be sort of I that would be my back pocket idea. Jane wouldn't like that because it seems to me it'll look a lot richer. This looks kind of like there was something else and we just took some white tape. I think it'll look much richer and it won't jump out it's right now it's sticking out and you're not even seeing Amherst first you're seeing Emily Dickinson Museum first. Yeah, exactly you've you just got to the core of it right. Maybe Jane will want that but it seems to me that she wants something tasteful too. Yeah, that's what we're selling. Seth would you be willing to meet with me and Jane and Ben would need to be there to and talk to her about this. Of course, yeah, we can coordinate our schedules. Yeah. All right, let's try to do that. So. Talk to me. Just to repeat so you're looking for a background like a cocoa color that is similar to that slide that shows the family of signage and then the lettering with the lettering be white or with the lettering be the sort of combo creme whitish. I guess using the design of those historical cultural as is the white on tan. Yeah, yeah. So was this sign going to be installed into the stone that you stonework that you had shown on the other slide. Going to go right down to the ground. I mean, I'm a strong advocate for landscaping and flowers and things but I think that sounds like it's going to be a volunteer effort, probably, or donated or something. Okay, so the post are going to go right to the, we're going to see it like that the post in the ground. Yeah, potentially. It depends on what the DPW is willing to do because I think that's who's going to be installing these signs for us. They may be feeling very artistic on the day that they're in and they may not be. You have to work with them. Well, they all would be the same consistent work. Okay. I keep it simple. So this is one of the three locations or this is the fourth different location. This is one of, this is one of four. Okay, so this one and then we're one. This is the modified location. Or is this where the others? Yeah, you mentioned three and then there's one that's modified. So look at the brown welcome dots or where the signs are proposed. So, sorry, hold on. So, this is the Dickinson one we were just looking at. Okay. This is a second sign that would be kind of on the south. East corner of the commons as you approach on route nine. This is a third sign that would be on the, you know, eastbound side of route nine as you're coming up the hill. And then here's a fourth sign that would be, this is at the intersection of the Amity and University Drive. Right. Near that shopping plaza. Yeah. I guess rafters isn't there anymore. Rafters used to be there. But yeah, but that would also be on the eastbound side as you come up the hill. And so I have, that's kind of an overview and then here that kind of specific locations. So, this is the one on the commons, it would kind of be where that path splits off that cuts diagonal across the commons. And here's kind of, I don't, I didn't have the software to do like a photo rendering. So I just kind of drew a square roughly the height and size of the sign. But it would kind of be in this little wedge right here in front of the telephone pole. So it would have a slant here down. So it would have to kind of wrap that. So with that green sign that says Amherst Center next right, then be taken down. Are we going to eliminate some of the plethora of signs? We can ask DPW to do that. Yeah. It's going to be all cluttered. I mean, we don't need one more sign there. We're going to keep that up. There's some, there's like the old wayfinding sign, they're still wayfinding system, there's still remnants of that downtown as well. So yeah, this would be the commons location as you're approaching. This is the, yep, the Dickinson location. Yeah. Just saw that. Yeah. So that's the intersection of Amity street and university drive. And which side is that going to be on now? Is that going to. I know we discussed that before, which. Is it now on the southeast corner? Southeast corner. We tried to speak to the university. We did speak to the university about putting it on their property on the north side of the road. So that's what we're trying to do with it. They do not want that sign on their property. They already have some signs welcoming people to the university there. So they, so this is really the only option that we have. And the decisions that need to be made are exactly how to place this and how to angle it. So it's appropriately seen from university drive going north and from Amity street going east. So you see the one on route nine. When you're at the signal for university drive so that you'll know that going to town, you should go straight because if you turn left and come up university and you don't see this, you'd end up on UMass campus instead of turning right on Amity. Yeah. So that sign will be visible when you're at the signal at university and route nine. Well, yes, I think it would be, but we're also exploring another alternative, which is I think it's Haskins Meadow. Is that right then? Yeah, Hawkins Meadow. Hawkins Meadow. So that's an apartment complex. It's just west of the intersection that Jen was referring to. And we're asking them if they would agree to having a sign on their property, but that may not work. Yeah, the route nine locations gotten a little bit more complicated because this is the state right of way. So we have to get permission, like an access permit from Mass DOT. It's not local, locally controlled. And so, and then there's also proposed construction on this stretch of route nine for, you know, coming years, months, I'm not sure. But so in conversations with them, and yeah, this is a blown up construction document. We had initially proposed the sign for this red area right here. And then they informed us that I guess this, there's like a giant pole that's going to be placed here for the new signals. So they proposed we move it back here. And they'd be willing to grant the permit for that. And to Jen's point that it's pushing it further back from the intersection. So even you, I mean, you'd obviously see it if you're coming straight, but If you're in the left hand turn lane, you wouldn't see it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, then this is the kind of rendering that they provided. I think this is a little taller than the six foot sign. Also, you've almost finished crossing the intersection by then. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, yeah, actually, I sent an email today to the owners of Hawkins meta to see if they'd be willing to place a sign on their property. Are you all familiar with what that is? Yep. And right after that image myself. Right. Not not a response. I mean, the owner that you might be able to reach out to is you drive south LLC, which is owned by Barry. Right. Yeah, Chris mentioned that. Yeah. Yeah. I was a little reluctant to say that that would be possible because I think they probably would want to. Well, I mean, we can ask them, but they still have to build their whole development. And they're not going to want to sign there while they're under construction. They may want to see what it's going to be like before they agree to having a sign there. This is the development that's going where that house is on the corner, the breakout. If it went there, would that be soon enough to catch to catch people so that they would go straight? Right. Because that was what I was thinking that corner development would be. What better than on the other side of the intersection if you put it at the very. Yeah, I'm not. I don't think there's any good place for this side. I'm wondering though, in all seriousness, if, if we had a little piece that they would give us where that apartment building is going. Would that be soon, would that be enough time for a person coming into Amherst for the first time to make a decision. I mean, I'm sure then and Chris would have to look into that. It makes sense for factoring in like speed and the. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I don't know. It's really not a good. It could work. It could actually work. I mean, it's important to have a nice looking sign coming up route nine. If we can, but if we can, maybe we should put that science someplace else. Where is the actual boundary? Is it where the sign says welcome to Amherst? Or is it before that? Is it west of that? You mean the town boundary? Yeah. It's west of the village of spiloot motors. You know, we're nice for the middle of your life. Yes, that's right about there. That's big why split half. Yeah. Well, it's also west of. It's west of the pizza place. So the pizza place is in Amherst. Which. Domino's to me. Right. So it actually. I mean, Beyond this green leaves driveway and all the way on the other side of. There it is. Okay. So, and we can't put it there. Or somewhere close to there. Would green leaves let us put one and like on the lawn right there. Green leaves is very problematic. Also, I think that, I think that would be too far away from the green leaves. Yeah. I mean, I think the Hawkins Meadow has a big expensive lawn. Well, this is Hawkins Meadow. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. We had for it. I was thinking like somewhere here. Yeah. Which if it's either at the eastern edge of their property gets a western edge of the development that Roberts is doing. So. Yeah. Same basic place. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's good to move over to the left. You'd know. To go straight to town. Yeah. I mean, if you're going to the university or using your Google maps anyway. Yeah. Yeah, I was going to ask, I think. I'm just remarkable. I have not sat in on all of the sighting conversations, but I know early on. One of the main concerns was. I think we need to be more direct and. Direct or capture if you will visitors to the university. Right. So people who go to go to UMass and they're in and they're out and they don't even touch downtown or to even know it's there. Right. Like getting more of those people in town. So as I'm thinking through this, I'm thinking anyone who. turn and then they are going to see that sign at the foot of the ant, hopefully we'll be like oh okay great I'll you know as I come back after I drop my kid off at the dorm maybe I'll circle back and I'll take that turn up the hill um I guess where I'm going with that is that everyone else anyone who's not intent on making that drop off or getting to campus is going to be going straight anyway and then um you know it's surprising to me um that people wouldn't notice or think to you know that see downtown to their left and head into town but is there value in having something at the top of the hill there before that intersection with 116 to let people know like you can turn left here and there's a whole lot going on in the same way that we're putting at the corner of the commons to catch people on route nine going both ways to say like head this way to town um because I mean this corner down at university and and route nine has been and tough it's really tight and it's yeah yeah like I don't know if there's somewhere up here that makes it so we we're gonna propose like a directional post sign on at this point um okay I want to back up a little bit we have to be careful here because yeah it's all owned by emmer's college and we did approach them at one point in the past about putting a welcome sign here and they were not um positive about that location at all they were very negative about that but it's gonna be right across the intersection on the left there right on the commons so it will once you get up here you'll see you won't see that one from this direction though yeah it's going to be facing south or southwest isn't it no it's on the other corner left off the other corner coming you're coming up from the other oh it's coming for when you're dropping west yeah I mean I know that those of you who grew up in these kind of towns automatically think oh I'll see it and it'll be town you know when I first came in I'm from Los Angeles I thought I was in a residential neighborhood I didn't think I'd be in town yet it wasn't town you know so allow for people coming from Boston or New York or something this doesn't look like downtown sorry it's common it's clearly down but uh Ben and Chris you had you were uh thinking about citing a directional sign uh in this vicinity that would have a arrow that would say downtown or Amherst left and then Amherst college right and Amherst Hampshire and Amherst right and I think a directional sign takes up a lot less room so I'm not able to get them to agree to that but to putting you know a sign that's four feet right up here they just three of the four corners belong to Amherst college is that right no the two corners on the east side of 116 belong to the town and the town right because that's a continuation of the common that they use that yeah college maintains it yeah yeah yeah yeah well what is a maybe we should be looking at those green stuff like what does that green sign say with an arrow is that right Amherst 116 oh Amherst center that says Amherst center how how dumb are these drivers there's a sign well but the idea is that if we have a new directional system that would come down and the way finding would replace it's everything yeah well I yeah there's two yeah I don't yeah I didn't realize that easy take a directional yeah that would be a good place so for tonight's purposes we're here to really look at firstly the design of the way finding of the of the welcome sign and then provide provide recommendations for the design and then also for the locations so what are is that correct so what are people yeah thoughts about the the welcome sign at you university drive if it were to remain as proposed so I guess is that where the blue is that what's being currently proposed that's what mass DOT is like willing to agree to at this point so what does the board feel about that location and if the town can get and then a second sort of location if you will if if people are agreeable is the Hawkins meadows or the or the Barry Roberts property somewhere within that vicinity whatever good that would be the best I think the best that should be our recommendation if you pull it off yeah so do people recommend this the blue location not really Jane no Catherine which the blue as shown on the slide what if folks feel about the blue location just worry about the construction schedule I don't oh yeah okay yeah I think that that could really interrupt I think it could and maybe we could get it on the yeah they had they had their construction engineer you know look at this as well um and so you know they didn't say explicitly but um like they were well aware of construction so would people feel that uh your first choice would be the the other location that we looked at um Hawkins meadows slash Barry Roberts and if that didn't work out then would folks be agreeable to this being the second option yeah if that's the only other one yeah it seems like that would be the only option yeah I'm just trying to move this along yeah move it along because okay so I'm gonna type it I'm gonna write first first option um Hawkins Hawkins meadows right I feel like that's uh the name of the school in Stranger Things yeah um okay uh okay so Hawkins meadows slash Barry Roberts is your and um please chime in I guess we will do a motion and stuff in such so you vote and then the second um second runner up location would be the blue spot which is on on um Northampton Road as indicated on the slide yeah okay um do folks want to we can wait to do uh motions at the very end but is that what I'm in general hearing from everyone well isn't there a third option instead of having it so far back would they be willing to let us put it in an angle on this corner across the street then so it'd be closer to the intersection like where that 93 is oh um is that a lane that is a lane right there up on the sidewalk then whatever um so that at least when you're sitting at the intersection you could see it because it's so far east I don't see the point Ben can you go to google street because I feel that doesn't a realtor own the building there I feel like that's right against the sidewalk I could be wrong oh yeah what do folks feel about that well there's so much stuff over there look how many signs there are there yeah I just I don't know if you would really pretty wide road like I'm not sure if you're going how about up in uh through this other corner the uh what about that go through the intersection and right what about in the median can we not use that median to the right on um old sunbill hit him with a car yeah no not there not there on when you take a right on to go into snow um there I think that would be of uh blocking yeah and they're redesigning that aren't they a bit uh not not that piece well actually maybe slightly slightly maybe wouldn't have to stick out into the street there it could be behind where that black car is you know it doesn't have to be yeah right there wouldn't that work would they let us put it there I don't know Chris whether you've ever talked to him about the rights of that that strip you know yeah I mean we probably wouldn't no not there but yeah but yeah over there yeah I know that seems a little far off if you're driving up yeah well it's a lot further west than what they're proposing yeah I mean just to the right of the signal post you know yeah yeah I think that would be a conversation with the dpw superintendent and whether something that like that could be allowed Chris do you have any experience I had no idea whether they would go for that I suspect that they're going to consider it an obstruction yeah so plowing but it's also going to be a visual obstruction to people entering and exiting that road there well okay if you don't like my idea then go back to the original motion so so with that it would be um no one can see my finger pointing at my screen but it would be if you see in I guess heading east Ben if you can indicate where that blue spot would be oh yeah that would be like here probably somewhere yeah so it can be a sidewalk so there or somewhere at the boundary between a very large property and uh Hawkins meadow yeah which is basically around where this vegetation is a little to the right west whatever yeah okay I think that's in my mind the best location if you can get to this far up on Hawkins meadow as you can no okay all right so that's an idea Guilford came up with that yeah yeah and it's there's no other signs around and it's nice all right so can we go move on to the next location which would be did we discuss well we did briefly discuss the amity and university of dry folks okay with that as as shown yeah university oh yeah well is it facing due west or is it tilted to the south at all um yeah it's going to be a little bit tilted so like people coming this way can see it it's not ideal but it's like we've got these signs and none of them are in like really good locations hmm it feels like if you've already seen the welcome to down on route nine both directions maybe this should just be the way finding a direct line yeah with directionals yeah yeah you wouldn't need that because it's not really facing anybody major coming you know it's no major road coming along there would save money i think that's a good solution other folks oh i totally agree okay katherine agrees anyone else one less sign like that so are you saying i'm sorry i have to go um is there i apologize i um i just need to go so it is there anything that i can um comment on or motion on that needs resolving and then like a couple minutes no i think we'll start with us and we'll use it how we want to okay i mean i think you've heard my comments overall and i apologize but i do have to leave so sure thank you thank you lindsay hi lindsay all right so if i'm hearing correct uh i've heard from two people saying oh erica how do you feel uh if this if this uh sign amity and new drive was instead a directional sign would be fine with that um there is something uh kind of romantic about marking the four corners of downtown but i think unfortunately we don't have the kind of downtown that has that clarity and uh if at this point um we could direct people to the downtown but then also point out some other um opportunities to engage museum sites and things then a wayfinding sign would be fine the wayfinding signs they're printed on both sides right well not because in some cases they have different destinations on the opposite side for this one it could show both coming down university and going up at that that downtown is that a way i was yeah and to that point i was going to suggest i don't know this is this is not saving money this is adding money is to do a two-sided welcome sign here that faces north and south so you could have a perfect and have it read really clearly from both sides but that's honestly i think i think a directional will be fine but if we're looking to optimize visibility and capture that college found traffic that seems like a crucial intersection and seems like maybe a place to oh yeah two-sided right now it's facing um eastbound traffic neither north nor south well right or it's facing right eastbound exactly right which is not busy so if you had a directional sign that had one of the flaps was printed back and front to face to point east oh yeah and then one of the flaps was painted to face north you know what i mean you do the all four directions yes thank you i can't say it now so we've heard from board members saying it might make more sense that that this location be directional and then it'd be double sided to accommodate whatever you know in that direction now does uh any Ben and chris so uh well firstly seth you said that financially i mean i does it matter on a financial perspective whether we swap this out from way find it from a welcome sign to a directional i don't know if that's even something that we need to consider but yeah it will save money it will but okay we have enough money i think we have oh we got a bid from um artifacts was around 30 000 so we have you know 50 000 left so we could conceivably um put a two paneled sign here and have one panel facing amity street going from east bound direction and one panel facing university drive if we wanted to do that it'd be like an l shape yeah there is enough money well i think it would be cheaper to do just a single sign single single pair of posts and just have the two sided text so that yeah but that only handles in our south it doesn't handle people coming from the west that's true i was i was letting them go not that many that's how i enter town but i don't think where the white truck is and the white truck is coming from the west well i mean what chris said you know if you had an l shape so the truck would see one turning towards town and then your other one could still be painted on both sides uh for this doll maybe could yeah sure or you actually just do two thousand dollars to burn here right chris that's right instead of the one on route nine at hawkins we do like a big banner over the whole intersection and that's that that i take it on we'll spend the money not to worry it's not my money i'm happy and so although i am you know hearing that people would prefer directional is anyone in this meeting staff or members or here's your opportunity to to make your case of yes no we still want the what welcome sign am i hearing anyone that is still wants to advocate for that well i see a space for it right by that tree and uh right there again so well if we could have a double one i mean an l shaped one like chris said one side painted both sides and the other one one side i mean that'd be great that'd be even better than a directional sign but i just didn't know if we could afford that yeah i don't know so i think let's try to go for the l shaped welcome sign here okay and if we can't get that for some reason we'll go with the post directional sign how's that okay yeah okay so first choice is the l shape welcome second choice if for some reason that just doesn't make sense for a variety of reasons then the would be a directional post sign yeah double-sided okay sense yep i'm writing this down if i don't write it down then i don't remember okay so now the fourth let's see here did we we talked about emily dickinson's sign location three the fourth one and what is the fourth one i can't remember i found the commons and we talked about that and and was everyone fine with the that time to town the southeast well if they could clear out some of those other signs i mean there's a telephone pole and there there's that that telephone pole uh and throwing our sign in there just i mean it should you know like the whole thing to look good i'd be surprised if we oh yeah the town will just take this green thing out i'd be very surprised well the only up next left is going to have to stay exactly but the amer center which is already crooked anyway if they take yeah that would help a bit so we're fine yeah all right fine there all right sign is this one is good so i think we have now spoken we've now you've all have discussed each of the locations we've just discussed the designs um were there any other parts of this that we're going to talk tonight um there's the whole wayfinding system downtown the directional posts okay both in their locations we we could come back at another time if people you know don't have time to finish that tonight basically i'm gonna you know there's like 30 more slides presenting um the locations downtown and kind of the proposed uh destinations and directions that would be pointed out at each location um so it is kind of a lot i but going along with that and i hear this from people and i observe this myself is there so many old cluttery signs yeah and down and i wouldn't endorse any more signs until there is definite proposal to remove some of the rest of those signs because that's just is ridiculous so our folks uh still um i don't know this meeting started at five at six thirty do folks uh want to delve into the directional signs tonight or should this be continued to a future meeting meeting date i i'm i'm available i make all staff members come to another meeting especially chris and ben because they don't usually have to come to our meetings can we do this efficiently so they can finish off yeah how's everyone else feel sure yeah i'm fine with that okay let's let's see how we go and let's aim to be efficient okay okay yeah sounds good yeah i'll just jump right in um basically uh you know you've seen the um schematic for the uh directional post system and so for each location um you know i work with chris and marine and you know other planning staff in general to kind of figure out what we're going to point to and you know what's the best way to get there so which route to pick um and then we kind of did a site visit downtown walk around and try to pick you know some of the most important locations to intercept people so and again i think um a bigger topic here is like you know whether these are geared towards pedestrians or vehicles i think that was something i kind of struggled with throughout and you know that affects which way they're oriented sometimes so that's something to be conscious of um so this first sign is um along kendrick park um i guess this is technically like triangle street extension fit right here um and so it would be to intercept uh people as they're walking downtown and um that street and or sorry and cars as they enter the roundabout um there was you know discussion of a lot of students do take this shortcut so we were talking about like putting a sign at this corner um but then you know a lot of drivers don't necessarily take this um shortcut so we were you know we settled on maybe just putting putting the sign in this corner of kendrick park um and so that would be kind of as you're approaching downtown it would be like somewhere in this area um and so what it would point out would be you know send you to downtown town hall jones library it can send you straight you know along triangle street the dickinson museum amber cinema we have the uh chamber commerce and the bid have that visitor center um which is an important place for people wondering downtown amber's college and hint for college um when you get to the bottom of triangle street and you hit main street will there be something that points you to turn right if you don't see the big welcome sign in front of the property uh at this point no i don't think so but that's yeah that's something i consider certainly i'm trying to think there there are randomly around town a few different dickinson signs um i guess you can't go straight so you're going to sit there trying to decide whether you go left if you turn to the right you'll see the big sign yeah exactly i feel like these signs um i mean clearly anybody who sees them regarding regarding it regardless of how they're moving about will be informed but that we probably should be thinking of these as for the pedestrian that will help us to make some decisions about their location so if we say we are prioritizing the pedestrian reader um then you might want to back this one up i have another kind of bigger question and that is um who gets to decide who gets a sign and with i everybody loves amor cinema but i also love hastings like why are they the only non-profit that's good point i don't there are some things atkins farm shows up numerous times and atkins farm north which no longer even exists um was there a a group of citizens who got to weigh in on these or people paying for their no it was ben and me walking around town thinking what was important where people might want to go and the most different parts to drive in maybe um me does an amor cinema has a have a lot of out-of-town visitors whereas atkins market wouldn't right yeah i feel market has a lot of out-of-town visitors also yeah Hastings Hastings have a lot of out-of-town visitors i think i mean amor cinema cinema is also a non-profit educational institution as opposed to you know purely for profit business i think that was part of the discussion and i think i can't speak to this but i know i think chris mentioned that there's always a lot of calls about people not being able to find amor cinema just a little bit tough tough back yeah it's hard to see um i mean if you say atkins couldn't then bolt would say well wait a minute what about us we're a big you know out-of-town destination even though they belong to amor's college um so so how about uh yeah i i see the point here but then how about parking should that be on there too or are you signing parking areas differently parking is on some of these signs but not all of them okay yeah the what the signs that are like most immediate to a parking lot um do you get a blue parking arrow why don't you just go through all of them kind of one right after the other so we can kind of see them all and see the locations and then maybe we can have a general discussion yeah yeah that sounds good um okay so this is a location kind of at the end of kendrick park and i chose this location um because it's a we we point out the west cemetery throughout the way finding system i do know what cemetery is spelled wrong so we will change that um but basically this location intercepts people and can direct them you know through past this new development um to west cemetery um and this is the first sign that's you know most of number two side it's just to give you a sense of you know this would be as you're moving south and then as you're moving coming north you know this is what um you would see oh wait sorry yeah yeah exactly so but if if emily dickinson museum you're continuing to head north what's going to tell you to turn right at uh triangle um so wait i think i had it yeah head it backwards so this is yeah if you're moving south if you're southbound you'll see dickinson museum and then you'll yes i'm a direction to the left okay yeah yeah yeah you'll see one of these signs down here okay um and so this is the another location kind of uh as you exit the parking garage um on main street in boltwood and so you would um yeah the end here we have like you know the parking sign showing up here so as you're coming west where is this exact remind me again because in front of formosa yeah in front of formosa okay oh yeah all right okay probably it would end up in this grass patch here okay um yeah sorry i'm a little blurry so another sign would be at this corner um and you would uh you know be sent to town hall um hammers history museum in these areas you mass straight ahead that's the most clear of all of them yeah yeah lots of different things to want to and then this would be if you're moving south um you know it sends you straight to hampton college amherst college um right again you know the eric carl museum shows up here that would send you how you did put afkins there yeah um i think that's definitely still uh oh that's a good point yeah yeah we were struggling we wanted to we were struggling to think of south amherst institutions but yeah yiddish book center would be a great one yeah maybe more than at afkins i don't know i like afkins but yeah or maybe afkins would like to subsidize there you go jan there's somebody who could subsidize the yeah commercial but the yiddish book center instead of atkins yeah yeah yeah definitely i think the visitor center is always going to be a challenge because you know it's it's stuck in there on south pleasant street people are probably going to look for something that stands out and they're not going to find that visitor center but yeah that's done you can do it also i just want to say that um there's panels for each of these locations so let's just pretend that the relocates to a different location um or or or any of them um these panels can be swapped out in the future and can we see the other side of this one real quick again sorry okay and this is where we possibly will be um redoing the north common so where exactly are you placing it is it going to have to be moved if we put our north common plan into effect it might have to be temporarily relocated okay and then put back again okay okay so um yep and then kind of opposite diagonal from that intersection there'd be a sign here at this corner um same thing similar kind of set of destinations um end of park west cemetery you know and send you take a right for parking in the parking lot there and then as you're moving south um sending you to the south amherst destinations then also the john's library the history museum in town hall and so oops sorry um this is uh basically you know at the amherst and the parking lot so a lot of people do park here and then you know as people walk out of the parking lot intercepting them to send them to different destinations in amherst and i think you know this all this one also is visible from for drivers like as they come into town so kind of service both purposes um and uh yeah so you know can send you straight to the against the museum um town hall the colleges are you out to the right and to the left um and then from the other side you know there's fewer destinations kind of out of town but at this juncture we can kind of send people into the cinema to the library to the history museum or like right into this parking lot um and then kind of there's three signs that are dotted around um this route nine intersection route nine and 116 so the first one you know would somehow you know be in this corner here whether it's kind of up on the stale or kind of in this grass patch we're not sure yet you know we would have to have that discussion with amherst college um but what we're proposing here is to kind of um you know send people downtown um so again you know this connects with our previous discussion about the welcome signs and uh if you know if people miss that welcome sign on route nine um that's good you know this this will point them to downtown um and to different destinations and to UMass if they miss left turn yeah yeah yeah exactly and this one brings up my other question and that's just about kind of like organizing the information that's here um if the arrow is pointing to the right could all be on the right side of the sign yeah arrows to the left all on this so you can kind of yeah switch amherst college in UMass yeah yeah and then there's the secondary question which complicates things and that is um should the things be grouped by typology if you will should the colleges be together this is another way to organize but should the browns be together and the whites be together i i think that the arrows are probably more important i agree i think it might make them harder to read if all the browns are together and all the whites are together this way they sort of stand out from one another but the signs on the right should point to the right and the signs yeah yeah that makes sense yeah yes that's our attention um and okay yep so this is kind of coming along route nine past the commons you know you you will have just seen that welcome sign and then um yeah you'll be sent you know downtown town hall of generous library they could send amherst college at the top of the hill yeah at the top of the hill and again the things it should switch so the things on the right side of the sign are the things to your right yeah i'm sure eric carl maybe um mutishwick center yeah this college will be on the left right can you do more than four or is that max um so right now the lowest uh this is like six foot four off the off the ground um so you start you know you know six foot tall people might start bumping their heads um and you know i guess everything could be raised up i think right now the top is at eight feet eight feet seems like i don't know if you want too much too much too much too much height additional on top of that um is there a code issue that needs to be checked on that for yeah we need to check with the building commissioner for the low point right all righty um and then this sign let's see yeah this sign is one sided um and then the last sign is uh as you're coming into town from 116 yeah it would be kind of like somewhere in this area um and send you you know pretty much everything's straight ahead except you know hammers college oh yeah that's one thing we're talking about is like where does hammers college actually want people to go because when you're at this corner you know you're kind of surrounded by hammers college really figured um you know i think the admission center is down here but i think that's something we'll reach out to them and just clarify that um and maybe step back far enough that you don't obscure those other signs at the corner yeah yeah exactly you know that intersection where amherst college is has has some of the very best locations but amherst college is not very cooperative about letting signs go on their property so i hope you can make it work because you know one of the things amherst college is going to say when they see this is they're going to see signs for eric carl and and maybe the yiddish quickcenter and they're going to see what about our art museum or what about all there you go the mead yeah the mead and what's the other one that's got dinosaurs you know yeah i mean it's cocked yeah i'm too which is not owned by them but i mean technically they'll say those other museums are just part of um hampshire college so why doesn't it just say hampshire even though i would say i think you're right that more people are going to be looking for the eric carl uh-huh than for the mead but they might want that yeah i think actually the yiddish book center and the eric carl museum own their property yeah their private aren't they just get from ham from hampshire and in the case of the mead it really is more part of amherst college right yeah yeah i agree so that'll be the answer when they say that yeah that's right instance amherst college doesn't like signage no they don't like signage like oh that's great all right so is this a good plan overall sure looks good to me yeah it's a lot of hard work and yeah so what i heard from folks was well firstly we just need to make sure that the locations in the heights meet the zoning bylaw and building code uh and then second is about just making you know the signs on the right should have the arrows on the right in vice versa left yeah possible right right the spelling of cemetery yep um change the atkins to the yiddish book center if possible that's right um what else i think eric i mentioned maybe you know thinking about relocating this sign before and required to get the sreans right yeah i also think i'm sure yeah at uh north pleasant right yeah yep but that could also be phase two if that doesn't meet yeah um isn't that actually mass ab at that point not north pleasant where um it'll stretch me there yeah i forget that's really north pleasant that's north pleasant and then it's north pleasant as you go left until you get to the baptist pleasant when you go out that's right okay i forget that's so weird okay got it um spelling atkins all right yeah that's that's all i got yeah i think there'll be a couple other things that i'll suggest in terms of sequence and there's some more considerations there i think of what order they fall in um and i don't know i'd like i feel like we should be in light of not only like there's some consideration around who who gets in and who's who's in and who's out on these panels but you know if we end up with more space in certain cases or maybe i feel like there might we might want to think about more visibility for parking on some of these locations what about grove park now that it's redone people there's like lots of parks yeah got two parks but you don't have grove right i'm just thinking about our earliest earliest conversations with this group um and it was all about get people downtown and get them parked and once they do that there's a whole other system that we haven't unveiled yet for orienting people through town you know yosks and things like that um so i think it's i think it's generous and i think it's it's not a disservice to direct people through the colleges and to cultural sites and things like that um but anyway i think as long as we're taking care of get people to downtown get them parked you know that should address our number one problem when do you hope to get these installed or when do you hope to have this finalized and install well i think we'd like to have it finalized this fall i don't imagine it's going to get installed this fall um but if we can make a good plan to get it installed in the spring that'd be great we're gonna have the riders walk in this fall so dpw will be busy okay so do we need to come back to you for these things um for more information about the post sign and more information about the welcome signs would you like us to come back to you when you were to email us the color right on the welcome signs yeah that seems to be the biggest that's the only thing that and what does jane say about her piece on that the one on main street okay yeah set they're gonna do some mock-ups for her with a more cocoa color and stuff yeah so it sounds like it's really up to ben and seth and me to um get this finalized if you will pardon my use of that word um and then uh just show you what we're proposing yeah you want the color right okay all right great otherwise i would say we can go ahead and say we approve the directionals pretty much to stand with whatever you need to do to them right yeah confidence here you do you all want to make a motion to um to um to give a positive recommendations with your comments regarding well further review about the um emily dickinson sign whether that background would have like a cocoa background um and that could be done in an email and then your other recommendations such as the welcome sign at amony and you at university drive your first choice would be an l shaped welcome sign at that location at amity and university drive and then your second choice is um if that didn't work would be a double-sided directional sign with posts and then about the welcome sign at on route nine and university drive you would like that sign to be at basically we're barry roberts and hawkins meadows property as your first choice the second choice would be as presented tonight and then and then we just covered all your comments for the directional sign such as you know it needs to meet in the bill code fixing the spelling mistake uh akins is now the yiddish museum north uh plus consider providing per uh directional signs at north at the north plus yeah where ben's pointing and then um the arrows make those uniformed by each sign if possible so can you say um that you recommend approval of the welcome signs as presented with the comments that moraine made um and that you will um approve the color via email um unless you can't come to an agreement on that and then we'll come back to a meeting because i think if we do it all by email then there's no vote to approve or to recommend right so can i just say so moved sure okay okay thank you okay you want a second yeah we need a second okay okay shall we need so i should take a any discussion you can do the roll call what's up i don't want to open another it's i have one last discrepancy i want to clear up that's been and i i i want to also minimize how many times we have to come back but in some places we're on welcome schools we've been referring to the downtown as town center and on the directional signs we're using downtown and this has been like this is a ancient um i'm hoping we can settle so i don't know chris if there's a decision made and maybe it didn't make it to me or this group is the one make that choice but i just wanted a good point i think the town manager should make the choice and what does the sign at the roundabout say um i believe that we went downtown there so let me talk to him about that great right and i just say that as somebody from a big city i think you should say town center it ain't no downtown yeah from town a little bigger than it is right yeah and let's just say that the town manager makes his decision one way the other so ultimately it's the town manager's decision and and i guess the drb doesn't need a way in on that conversation well or we could say we would prefer town yeah can be part of the motion yes yes and does everyone on the board feel that way like erica yeah i agree that would be you agree okay for a town not downtown okay i think the reason the bid went with downtown is because that's part of their um email isn't it embers downtown or something yeah yeah right so okay okay we do a roll call of yeah okay okay so uh lindsey's not here janet yes i erica i and myself katharine i great great thanks your staff and seth for staying so long after normal hours yeah thank you very much for a lot of work wise recommendations we just we did we just i on the um we voted on the motion um yeah but that that was about the welcome signs that we have to have it was everything that was okay i think marine said i just so okay great thank you and then even the center versus downtown we added that okay and one last thing for the record that um it's not for lack of love or appreciation for places like atkins farm that but i think that as a town we want to promote the cultural institutions yeah above the retail yeah and actually they'll benefit beautifully anybody who goes to hampshire college or the eric carl they're going to end up at atkins so without even advertising we need more panels all right well i don't have any other items on the agenda um does anyone have any announcements or other well we didn't get public of the way is there anybody from the public who's been listening in do you have anybody let me look nope okay all right good that probably we'll probably be talking about the um riders walks in because the bids should be in any day i think right chris they they were due that's what nate tells me yep yeah so then we'll be refining the details so i'll be in touch okay is there any other business can't you don't have anything else there do you marine okay i moved to adjourn oh thank you okay is there a second okay they moved and seconded by someone okay the meeting is officially over it's really an interesting and yeah a lot of work