 Thank you for joining us, everyone. We're really excited. We have a master class today. And again, I'm Julia Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. I'm joined by the non-profit nurse herself, Jared Ransom, CEO of the Raven Group. We certainly wanna give a shout out to all of our sponsors. Naming them is really important. Blumerang, Boardable, Staffing Boutique, Mission Met, Fundraising Academy, Nonprofit HR, Moves Management, Windspire Deep Breath, American Nonprofit Academy and the non-profit nerd herself, the Raven Group. It's really, really an important topic that we're gonna delve in today. And this is a topic that weaves in throughout the non-profit show, Jared, daily. And it's building the best board, right? I'm so excited to talk to us about this today. Yes, this is something that comes up. So I'm in the hot seat and really looking forward to the conversation. Just as always, we welcome each of you, all of you, if you're joining live, to use the Q&A at the bottom if there's something that you would like to contribute or ask during the show. And Julia has a lot of experience serving on boards and I have a lot of experience on helping to develop and evolve boards. And so together we, you know, I'm in the hot seat, but Julia, I'm gonna bring you right along with me. I don't know, I don't know. You know, there's kind of only one bind that will fit the hot seat today. I've just gotta say. So first of all, I've gotta ask you, how important is a board? If they give us so much stress and they're the source of so many problems and so much convention, why is it that they are important? Well, you know, the board is extremely important for a multitude of reasons. But first and foremost, I really want to set the tone of the importance of being a board member and the responsibility that that carries, right? Like this is a governing board and that's exactly what we're talking about today are governing boards. And so typically are mostly, they have the fiduciary responsibility of the organization. So that means that, you know, it's a legal contract. You're also very tied into the transparency and just overall fiduciary practices of the organization. I don't want to scare you, but I will tell you that I was working with a client that was this close to their board members, like all receiving knocks on the door from the IRS. So that was a really big moment of, aha, light bulb, you know, what is going on, things have gone too far. And just, you know, I was brought in to help resolve that problem to help provide solutions. So, you know, when you serve as a board member, you are really putting a lot of responsibility onto you, which is why I also like to say having directors and officers insurance is critical to the importance of the board as well as the importance to you as the professional serving on the board. Right, and I have met, I've done more board retreats, more board boot camps where I've had board members say, oh, Julia, don't worry about it. It's part of my homeowner's insurance. Oh. Yeah. I don't think it is. It can be, he could purchase a rider, but no. It is no, no, no, no, no, no. You need to see that. You need to see that documentation that it's paid, what it includes. Does it include, you know, things that are mismanagement to character issues to workplace violence or harassment? It's a big deal. It's a big, big, big deal. Yeah, it's definitely a policy that you want to review. And I would say review it annually, but this is very important to the board as well as to you personally, professionally, as a liability. So again, not to scare you, but that is very important. And to really have, you know, a governing board of the organization is extremely important. And the makeup of that governing board, I like to say will evolve as your organization evolves. So where you are today may not be where you were 15 years ago or even five years ago. And it may not be the makeup of the board members of where you will be in even five years. So that could change and just keep that in mind that your board makeup should evolve as your organization continues to evolve. I think that's wise. And part of that evolution, and we hear about this so much, cultivating new board members. We get asked this all the time on this show. I know I get asked this personally from folks all over the world. Yeah, we get it, but where do we find these people? And so I'd love for you to talk about that because that seems to be even now more of a question when we're looking at issues of diversity and expanding what the board looks like. Well, absolutely. So cultivating new board members, right? We're looking at how do we attract new potential board members? How do we bring them on board? So that onboarding practice, I'm really excited to share and I happen to know this but boardable, one of our sponsors will be coming on next month to talk about how to attract and onboard board members in this virtual space. So that's a nuance that is new to all of us. And so that's something we're gonna talk about. But I like to carry the previous conversation that we just had, Julia, into the cultivating of new board members. Because we want to attract and really engage with board members, not for where we are in our organization lifecycle but where we're going, right? Where we're going. And who do we need to bring on to help us get there? So maybe there's a skill set gap from our board. Maybe we're looking at term limits and someone that was really good in one area is terming off by way of compliance. So we really need to look at cultivating new leaders for our board as to where we're going. A little hint, your strategic planning process should also help with that. Right, right. And I think that we have some amazing documents and courses on the American Nonprofit Academy site that helps you figure out what that board mixes. And it's, spoiler alert, it's not just this DEI concept that we're really bringing to light. It is asking yourself if you have people that speak different languages that live in different parts of the community that have, what you just said, they have different backgrounds. Maybe they're involved in tech, maybe they're involved in law or HR. I mean, all these different things so that you get a full cadre of people who can support the mission. You know, I see so many nonprofits that are like, we wanna build a campus, we wanna expand these buildings, we wanna buy old buildings that nobody wants and put up new ones and they have nobody with construction management on their board. Right. Nobody, little loan project management. So I mean, it's like, okay, that's great but where's the talent that's gonna help you, you know, navigate that? So I agree with you. I love that you framed it that way, Jared. Right. Wanna go. And to take it forward. So diversity in all of the ways, there's a board source document that I like to reference and I use this often when I'm helping to evolve boards is what kind of an analytical mind do we have on the board, right? So are individuals coming in as, you know a consensus builder mentality? Are they a team player? Are they the analytic? Are they the skeptic? So really when we're looking at diversity, we're really looking at all ways of diversity. And so to keep that in mind, but you know, to your point as well, if we're looking for a specific skillset, profession, keep that in mind so that you, you know as you're looking at filling the gaps as you grow your board, keep all of that kind of top of mind so that you can start to recruit according to many of those areas. I love it. You know, now this is kind of a tricky question because I wanna know what your thoughts are on vetting a new board member. Because I think that we don't spend enough time, you know, it's more like, well, she's a great gal. And it's like, well, wait a minute, you know we gotta figure, we gotta dive a little bit deeper. So what are some of your thoughts on this? Well, here's a trick of the trade and I hope that Katie with staffing boutique would agree with me on this because I think it's very similar when you're looking to bring on a new employee or a new staff person. So you are looking at the CV or the resume of the potential board member, right? You're looking to see if he's here, they have past board experience. And again, we wanna compare apples to apples. So every board matrix makeup is different, right? So if we're looking at bringing me on Jarrett and I typically work with small shop organizations, you wanna make sure that the skillset that I bring to the table will also fit your organization and where you're growing and going, right? So I think that's really important. So when you're looking at your apples to apples, I also like to do some due diligence. Look on LinkedIn, find out where these individuals have served before. If you're anything like me in my community, we are a small nonprofit community, right? I live in a really big city in Metro Phoenix, Arizona, but our nonprofit sector is still very connected. So if I see someone that has served on a board, typically I know someone with that organization and I can pick up the phone or send a quick email that says, you know, hey, Julia, I see that Sally served on this board. I would love to know your experience with Sally. How did she serve you, right? What was your experience with Sally in this role for board service? Would you be willing to share with me what your experience was? So that's why I say it's relatable to hiring is because everyone that is listed as a reference, we're all going to say really good, nice, clean, polished things, but if we take it a step further and we find out where this person might have served on the board and just find out what their experience was, I think that's a really valuable tip and trick that I have implemented, which has really done, you know, some great service to those that we've looked to recruit. Now, when I hear you speak about this and when I speak about this, I think that we are framing it with talent that has served before. Yes. So what do we do if we need to find new people that have not served on a board before? Because there's going to be some training and some learning that needs to go on. So one of the trends that's coming through in our sector, and I know you've seen this, Julia, are young boards. And I don't like to necessarily use the word young, but this is kind of that training ground. Plus we have a lot of leadership groups in most of our cities and towns. So those are leadership programs that are truly developing civically engaged leaders. So I am all for bringing on new board members. And by new, I mean less tenured in the board service, right? And so I think that's a great opportunity. If you have a leadership program in your local community, reach out to them and see if they might know of someone. If you have a young board group or you know of another organization that does, that's also a great resource to bring on some new talent into the board service. But I love it when board members do a, kind of a mentor mentee program within the board. So you match up an incoming board member, regardless of their age or experience being on a board, and you match them with someone who has been on the board so that they really help to guide that individual with the onboarding, with ramping up into who are we as an organization? How do we serve our community? How do we speak to our solution in the community? So those are some great ways, I think, in which we can not only attract new to the volunteer board service individual, but also really make it a pleasurable, enjoyable experience for them. Yeah, make it strong so they wanna move forward. It's really interesting. We have a comment that's come in. It says, what are your thoughts on establishing a shadow board to cultivate new board, new board governance members and provide new insights on issues? It's very much what we're talking about. By shadow, I mean a group composed of diverse, early career, early career is good. I would say young professionals, but yeah, early career individuals who come together when the governing board convenes, discusses the same issues, but has no voting rights. So yeah, I think this is very much what we're talking about. And that is, shadow board can note something a little negative, I think, but I think if you have an advisory board, young professionals board, that something that does engage, and I've seen this where this young professionals board will actually attend so many meetings and then they will have their own meetings and they will be in charge of one project. And so that they can actually see how this all works. But thank you for the question because I think it's really a critical thing that we understand we gotta be doing some training because we don't have enough people in the pipeline. Okay, so now we're gonna get to the hairy part and I'm gonna call this based on the colors today that just happened to be. I'm gonna change this question to board member pink flags. Pink flags. So what does that mean? Well, and I think as a board member, there's a lot to consider with this, but I also look at this as an oncoming board member, our potential oncoming board member, right? So I may ask something like, are your board meetings open? Might I be able to sit in on a board meeting and see how they're run? Hopefully the organization says yes and that these are open so that you can just witness, just experience, right? Like see how they're run and how they're managed. A huge red flag or pink flag due to the coloring today. I always say this is a really big concern of mine, Julia, is if the board is a rubber stamping board, if they agree with everything that has tossed their way in particular by the CEO, if they are saying, oh, that's great, do it. And there's really not a lot of analytical conversation. That to me is a huge red flag. And it's really of great concern because you want to have these analytical conversations, not just for the organization itself, but truly for the mental stimulation and challenge of the board members, because you have asked them on to be leaders to help provide solutions to the community problem. And so I feel that you truly need to engage in these individuals and their intellectual minds to truly help them provide solutions to the various problems. That I think is my number one red flag, is if you have a rubber stamping board that is of critical, critical concern. And so you think that's more important than even like the mix of the board and the age of the board, things of that nature? I mean, you really think that that is the starting place? Well, I don't know that it's the starting place, but for me, when I think of red flags, that is something that I've noticed too many times that has become the culture and the normal culture for too many. Like just too many organizations saying, oh, it's great, we trust the CEO. We know that she's going to do the right thing and take us forward. She's been with us for 10 years or whatever the case, right? But yes, all the other things are equally important, right? We really wanna have diversity. We want to keep all of our decisions mission driven focused, right? So the board is really there to make sure that we are staying in parallel and in tangent with our mission-driven goals and that every decision we make is backed by the mission. So before we go on to our, and hard to believe, but our last question, I'm curious of what you think about this concept now that so many board meetings have gone virtual and chances are they're going to remain so. It's not just like everybody's gonna be meeting IRL. Do you think using board portals or those reports now that it's done without the face to face, people are less engaged or they can be more engaged? Do you have any thoughts on that? Sadly, I've heard that they're less engaged. I've really heard and I am guilty too, right? Like I have attended meetings, webinars, whatnot and just kind of checked out or checked my phone or multitasking and that is easier to do in this virtual state, right? When we're in person, it makes it a little harder to be sidetracked with something else happening in your world and in your life. So I think that that has posed an additional challenge. So one of our big challenges anyway is how do we get our board to do the work? How do we get our board to actually show up and be engaged? And so now in this virtual state, it does pose an additional challenge, right? An additional roadblock. But I think when you look at the consent agenda, it comes to how do we create an engaging opportunity? And it's setting the culture for that, right? It's setting the culture that we're not going to sit here and regurgitate reports. That's for what we're going to send to you previously, right? We're gonna send that report to you in advance and then we're really going to have an engaging dialogue which will set the culture of having every board member engage in their voice heard. Right, I love it. I think that's a really a wise thing to be looking out for. Okay, so again, lightning round. As we go to this, I mean, this is probably, this is not probably, this is a show in itself saying adios to bad apples. Yeah. This could definitely be a show in and of itself. And I reference on our show quite often, Julia, that I am a part of many Facebook forums and different groups. This conversation, man, it will get you stirring, but so much so that people don't understand that you can bless and release your board members. So you can listen to that again. You can release board members. You can say adios to bad apples. And really what that looks like is I always like to refer back to the onboarding, back to the expectation of the board member. So when you brought this board member on, did you have them sign a board agreement, right? What did you ask of this individual to serve on the board? Has he shared they been in compliance with what you asked and what they signed? Because that is a great tool to go back to. And I will say in all my 20 plus years of this experience many times having a conversation with that board member to say one-on-one, either telephone, video in person, what works for you and the board member, is this volunteer board experience still serving you? Is this something that you wish to continue because I've noticed fill in the blank with examples, right? And I'm gonna say that is best done by the board chair or the governance chair. So this is not a staff responsibility or certainly a consultant responsibility. This is a peer to peer responsibility of conversation. So have that conversation, I will say nine times out of 10 Julia that I've been aware of these conversations. The board member says, oh, thank you so much because I've been meaning to have this conversation with you. I didn't know how to do it. Thank you for giving me a graceful out. I agree with you. I absolutely 100% agree with you. And I think what I see is that not enough, and I agree, it needs technically, it should be the board chair. You should have this very prescribed so that everybody knows what the expectations are. Are they being measured? And if you don't do that, then you can start doing that now. And you can make it go into effect in 18 months or 12 months, but don't wait. You can bring everyone along, not just new board members with this process. But I think that you have to really, really be honest, have the integrity for yourself and for the organization and that board member to say, no, I feel like maybe things aren't working out. Do you need to take a leave of absence? Do you need more training? Do you need more support? Have you lost your passion for the mission? Or do you not believe that our mission and the management of that mission is what you can navigate because you don't support it? Right, or it may mean that the board member doesn't know how to be more engaged, right? I think that is a common issue that we face as well is I don't know what to do. I don't know how I can be of more service. I show up at the meetings or maybe they don't show up the meetings, but have that conversation is really important. And yes, that could be a whole episode and conversation. And I think it's really important. I think also, I think it's very important to memorialize that and you can do that simply by taking an email in an email format and sending it to that person that you had the conversation with and then sending it to yourself and saying, thanks so much, we talked about this, this, this and that, and these are the remedies. And if they're like, well, I want to stay on. I think it's very important to say, okay, let's review this next quarter or in six months or whatever. Don't just let it be a band-aid so that when other board members come to you and say, hey, there's a problem, you have a strategy for resolution. Because again, I think this is just, I use the phrase bad apple in here because it really does permeate to the rest of the board. And it can do so quickly. And then it becomes. But it also sets an expectation for others that this bad behavior or this lack of engagement is acceptable. Right, yeah. Really good comment. And that is just not acceptable. No. Wow, well, this has been a great masterclass. I'm so appreciative to Jared as always to really take time and explore something with us and give us answers in a real direct way. One of the things that we've noticed with our book club is that there are a lot of books about boards and board management. We have some of them on the book club and definitely really one of those things that I've seen organizations, Jared, that, and I'm a philanthropic snob, believe me, where I'm like, really, that is the lamest cause. But because they've got a great board, they're burning it up and they're making money. And then I'll see other organizations who I'm like, oh my God, that they're doing the work of the angels. This is so important to our community. This causes some part, they don't have a great board. And so they struggle and they don't do the things that they could do. Yeah. It's one of those things. And I know you see that as well. I see it often and really the board engagement piece is critical. Yeah. It's really, really an amazing thing. Well, check out our book club. Super, super important information. Again, I'm Julia Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. I've been joined by the nonprofit nerd herself. But I always like to say, is my nonprofit nerd or nonprofit nerd, the nonprofit nerd? Just a great brain in our sector and national leader. And so how lucky are we to have her with us every morning? So amazing information, Jared. A lot of our sponsors who are with us have components of their businesses that actually deal with board work. Absolutely. It's fascinating. And I never, until we were just talking about this, this is something that pretty much every single one of them deals with or has some sort of connecting point in a different way. This is how critical this topic is. It's just really, really, really critical and something that moves you forward, makes you love the organization, makes you really emboldened and passionate about the work you do, or it becomes just a drudge. And it's a tough, tough thing. So thank you so much, Jared. Another great episode. We're super appreciative to have you here. I'll be here all week. And next week. And over here, are we? Well, it's always a great thing to get your insight just by myself, just to get that, as you like to say those nuggets. We end up every episode with the mantra, stay well so you can do well. Thanks so much for joining us for another episode. And we'll see you back here tomorrow.