 Hello, and welcome to Conservator's Combating Climate Change, a new podcast series by the American Institute for Conservation's Emerging Conservation Professionals Network. I'm Emma Hartman, and I'm Natalia Swanson. And we're so excited to be hosting this series that we hope will inform, empower, and inspire action in conservation and collections care professionals at every stage of their career. This podcast is generously supported by the Department of Art Conservation at the University of Delaware in honor of Bruno Pouya, an amazing mentor, educator, and human. We're so grateful to the University of Delaware for the opportunity to celebrate Bruno's legacy, and to the entire AIC and ECPN community for supporting us in this new venture. Our guest today, Kate Fugit, is an objects conservator currently working at the American Museum of Natural History. She graduated from Vassar College with a BA in anthropology and art history, and completed a dual degree master's program in conservation from University College London's Institute of Archaeology in 2012. Before joining the anthropology lab at AM&H, she worked at the Cooper Hewitt National Design Museum, at the Brooklyn Museum, and in private practice. She lives in Brooklyn with her husband and son, who just turned three and is the true catalyst for her interest in and work in sustainability. She hopes to create a community of conservators and ally professionals to create and share climate crisis solutions and positive action. And this is why we welcomed Kate to the program. We're excited to share some of the candid conversations we had with her over a few sessions and hope you get as much out of this conversation as we did. Something that I've been thinking about just in reading the news and thinking about this community that I want to start, because it's only as strong as getting a wide variety of voices in it. And so thinking about, well, the field is so white, I want to include as many people as possible. How can I ensure that all of those voices are represented if the field itself doesn't include a lot of them? But then there are also, I feel like I think about the 17 sustainable development goals and how education and ensuring equal opportunities to education is one of those goals. And it just really illustrates how climate justice is racial justice and ensuring that we're listening to these communities and protecting these communities that are at risk for the climate crisis. And it's the same way with how can we include them in our field and how can we ensure that they are receiving the same educational opportunities that we're receiving. But it feels sort of like out of your grasp and out of your range of ability to make a change, even though you want to, which is the same thing with the climate crisis. Yeah. There are levels of complexities in the problem, both because it is systemic in terms of the racial problem. It is kind of part of our governing policy within capitalist and corporate society to be profit driven. It's seeped into the educational system. I mean, there are so many levels of complexity of it as a societal problem. And then we have, you know, we kind of throw conservation right into that. Right. So we already have this problem of not really having a seat at the table. And also being a mostly female field. Absolutely. I mean, that plays into it also. One thing that I learned through researching the climate justice social justice is that the NAACP has this plan that they put out in a toolkit on how the green job sector is this incredible opportunity for the black community. And as an institution, if we all are acknowledging that built heritage is part of the problem and should be part of the solution, then implementing carbon neutral or more sustainable energy sources is a natural pathway forward. And so this gives us a very, I think, you know, kind of an obvious opportunity to both increase the racial diversity of our workforce in a sustainable and compassionate, equitable way. Having this idea and then getting it, anyone to listen and implement it and then particularly now when the conversation is who is keeping their job and who is getting let go is, you know, it will get pushed to the sidelines because the pandemic is the forefront of everyone's mind right now. So I've been talking a little bit with the AIC Sustainability Committee. You know, and one of the things that I just suggested to them is, is there a way that we can frame some sustainable initiatives like and actually get some numbers behind them and just be like, this will save you money, you know, like in the long run because that seems to me to be the only way right now that we can even think about trying to get some of these things on the table because the pandemic is really just affected museum and cultural institutions budgets. And it's like, you know, I feel like, OK, how do I make this ask? I have to sort of frame it in a way that someone's going to want to hear it, which might just be this will be cheaper. That's the only thing, you know. But yeah, it's really, it's really hard to even have some of these conversations sometimes when there's just this bigger, you know, more pressing issue of this pandemic and, you know, when will it end? Yeah, I think that because we live in the society that we do, that these decisions often come down to the bottom line and that might be used as excuse to not move forward on some of these initiatives. Like, you know, we just don't have funding to allocate to that. But what I think all of us here know is that sustainable initiatives often are cost saving measures. And so if we can find a way to promote these ideas, both as it will be economically beneficial and it will be culturally beneficial and it will be environmentally beneficial, then it's hard to argue that. Yeah, and actually, when you were saying that. So I had emailed AM&H's Sustainability Committee to suggest that the staff cafes stop serving beef, because it's just one little thing that you can do that does have a really significant impact. But now hearing you talk, I'm like, I might try again and just also point out to them that it's going to be cheaper if they're not buying beef. Yeah, I hope that's successful. Okay, I wonder, do you have any ideas about how we can bring people of, you know, related but disparate interests, for example, both diversity, equity, inclusion and access committees and green and sustainability committees? How do we bring all these people to work together in one space? I'm really just trying to figure this out as I go. But, you know, my vision really is just to, like, invite everyone in. I feel like the more the merrier, I want to hear all of the voices, you know, obviously I want us all to be united around a common goal of, you know, trying to make our field more sustainable. You know, I think it would be great if it's not just conservators, but I feel like heritage professionals, you know, people who are sort of involved in that side of things is kind of what I had been thinking. Just because I also feel like there's this idea that we don't have a negative impact, but we do. Well, I feel like people who even work in museums or cultural institutions maybe don't always think about the negative impact that their actions have on the environment. You know, you think about art shows traveling and, you know, museums are really large, you know, old buildings. So sometimes they're using a lot of energy in like really inefficient ways. And I feel like our field doesn't necessarily think about those things all the time, just because, you know, for the most part, museums and cultural organizations do have a really positive impact on their communities. But talking about the fact that we also do have a negative environmental impact is really important to do. And so I think, you know, any kind of coalition or community that I have, I want to be open to, you know, all people kind of in our field, not just the conservation field, but like the museum heritage professional field. You know, museums are more frequently now presenting programming around the climate crisis or presenting exhibitions that deal with some aspect of the climate crisis and and not really examining their own role in in perpetuating unsustainable practices. And I think, you know, broadening that conversation in the way that you just presented is really kind of a critical next. Yeah, yeah, exactly. We all need to be examining what we're doing. You know, otherwise we can't fix this, you know, like everyone in every aspect of their lives really needs to be thinking about how they can have a positive impact and and examining their actions, you know, not, you know, immediately assuming that they're doing anything wrong, but just, you know, how can you how can you be better? That's an important point that sustainability really is a mindset. Some of the major movements and changes that have been enacted in American history have been through purchasing, right? And so consumers demand and then change happens based on that consumer demand. And so we have incredible power to initiate change. And it's more of just a recognition of the agency that we have and then being conscientious of it and just asking ourselves, do we know what organizations we're buying from and what their stance you know, you and I had this conversation a while back when we were talking about different adhesives and conservation and we're talking about fish glue and it was like, OK, well, we have to look up what type of fish are used and what is happening to the sturgeon population and how are they being so, you know, what type of waste is associated with it and what different ways are they shipping it? And there isn't an easy way to get at this information. And so it really requires everyone to to put in some effort and some work. And I guess that's kind of one takeaway that I've learned from all of these conversations we've had so far is that there has to be a commitment to some action, right? We all have to put in some effort. Absolutely. And I feel like you also raised a really good point just in mentioning agency because I feel like that's really important. And that's one thing that, you know, Henry McGee mentioned in the breakout session that you and I attended at Stemming the Tide was how important it is that we all remember our agency and remember that there are things that we can do. And that to me is also a big part of why you know, this coalition that I'm trying to get off the ground, I really want to be inclusive to everybody and lots of different points of view just because I want to encourage people to feel like they actually can make positive change and can do something. And that's really something that I left Stemming the Tide feeling like with that, like, oh, I feel hopeful. And I, you know, I feel like there are a lot of things that I can actually do. And I feel like that's really important to remember, especially because there's so much negative, you know, news that we're all hearing and reading right now. And a lot of the climate crisis news is really scary and is really negative. But there are, you know, people do have the power to make a lot of change and talk to other people and, you know, they do have a big impact. And I feel like that's so important to acknowledge and get excited about. Yeah, I agree with you. I left Stemming the Tide feeling a lot more energized. You know, when this problem is so, so because it's systemic, it means it's also structural, which means that it's complex on a level that we really can't fully comprehend. And I think that that is really intimidating when we all realize that changes need to be happening in the energy sector, which means that transportation and manufacturing and agriculture and development, right? All of these different sectors of society need to be evaluated. And that is something that any of us, you know, particularly, I think within conservation, our job is very insular, right? It is we often go very, very deep into one aspect of research. That that can be really quite intimidating. And so it did help. It helped me. It helped me feel empowered to know this change will take place on an individual level. And so we need to first recognize that for ourselves and then form communities where we can help other people recognize that agency. And that's really honestly why Emma and I wanted to start this podcast. I mean, it's only one small aspect, but we're at least having some conversations and we're learning something. And so that and you're sharing those conversations and that learning with other people. I think that's so important. Do and either of you know about the Act Labels organization called My Green Lab. That's really great in terms of figuring out ways that you can make your lab more sustainable. But then they I don't know if it's something that they have developed, but it's basically like describe it as an eco nutrition label for laboratory products. So not all companies that, you know, sell a lot of lab products have these labels on them, but some of them do. And basically, I think it's a number out from like zero to one hundred, you know, zero being better for the environment and one hundred being worse. And so it lets you it's a label that's on products. It lets you select and more sustainable, you know, material or chemical or piece of equipment, but not all companies do it yet. And so one thing when we were just talking about, you know, consumers having a lot of impact is if more conservators and more people working in labs are, you know, going to the companies that sell their lab here and their lab products and saying, hey, we want these act labels. Hopefully more and more companies will start using them. And it's a really great way to select a more sustainable, you know, chemical or piece of equipment, etc. Interesting if like more people started, you know, asking for them if they became more widespread. You bring up a really good point. You're saying like we as consumers need to be more vocal in what we want and to kind of push industries into this new kind of green sector. I think that I mean, that's so important to do. And I feel like it's happening, but I feel like it needs to happen more, you know, in in sort of the fields like ours that, you know, for the most part do have a really positive impact on their communities. So maybe they aren't always looking exactly at what else they can be doing. But I do think that's changing. My worry just is that this pandemic will sort of push us backwards. But hopefully not, you know, all of these things that museums can be doing, you know, they might not seem like they're having a direct environmental impact. But there are so many ways that the 17 sustainable development goals are so useful in like building bridges. And, you know, you realize that there that all of those things create a more sustainable and equitable and just world, which hopefully we're working toward greening your lab is is great. But, you know, like building those bridges in your community and working with different food organizations, that's also really sustainable. And that's also just as important. And I think that's really important to remember, too, because I sometimes get so focused on, you know, conservation work and bench work and how to make that more sustainable. But I think it's it's really good to remember, too, that there are a lot of ways that museums can have a positive impact. Yeah, absolutely. Each different aspect of our job, regardless of if we are primarily doing bench work to if we are doing more preventive and holistic collection care, they both provide opportunities for collaboration. Something that we've been talking about a lot is how there is great potential in the treatment projects that we do to both document and publish on alternate narratives. So just not continuing to perpetuate the usually white narrative that is associated with the objects in our collection and just in broadening the definition or broadening the significant the period of significance. That is a really sustainable action in itself, because as we've already said, climate justice is deeply connected to social justice. You know, I'm really interested in our decision making and how we can make that more sustainable. And, you know, at what point are we factoring sustainability into our decision making and giving it equal weight? You know, with the other kind of ethical things that we consider, you know, cost and time. And it'll be interesting to see how and if and when, you know, that starts happening that we aren't taking those into consideration. We are. I think that we're just not being transparent about it, particularly in our documentation. But the reality is that there are so many factors, micro factors that lead to the decisions that we make. And I think it'll behoove all of us to become more transparent in why we make the decisions we make and not to hide behind, maybe it's not hiding behind, but not to continue to perpetuate the idea that we are functioning solely on the parameters of this code of ethics, because that we aren't. We're we're humans. We function within a contemporary society and to continue to ignore that part of our of our decision making. I agree. Actually, I agree. We widespread, you know, and having worked at a number of different institutions. It's like each institution sort of has its own culture and its own way of doing things and, you know, its own preferred materials, you know, that you sort of start using for whatever reason, you know, and that, like in some cases, is really why you're choosing to do what you're doing. Absolutely. That's a big part of what we're doing. I actually was giving a presentation on a treatment that I worked on last year. I'm about to present at AIC. And one of the the choices that I make just for my own personal health is whenever possible is to use water based systems because I don't like to work with solvents. I work with them when I need to. But I know that it's it's not as good for my health. And I know generally it's not as good for environmental health. So I just try and stay away from it. And so I chose to coat something with gum Arabic. And I was like, I think that this is, you know, in some ways I can think of this as a more sustainable initiative. And one of my colleagues kind of pushed back on that and said, well, if this is going to degrade faster over time and if we already have access to this other polymeric material that might last longer, wouldn't that be more sustainable? And maybe I'm not sure, you know, what I my answer ended up being was I'm not sure that's a good argument that you're making. Yes, it matters. What is and is not what is more and what is less sustainable? That is important. But I think actually what's more important is are we thinking about sustainability in our actions? And can we rationalize it one way or the other? As long as you're giving it. Well, and if we get the right cycle analysis, the effort that's being put into it, then we will actually, you know, hopefully have a way of answering that question of what which one is more sustainable. That is is super exciting to me that we could in possibly the very near future have an interactive tool where it obviously is not going to make all the decisions for us. I don't think it'll actually really make any decision, but it'll at least give us some guidelines to where this can be a factor. And if we decide to go with the most sustainable material or if we decide to go with a slightly less sustainable material because it's better for another reason, at least we'll be more informed. That will be very exciting. Something that that has kind of hit me recently is that when the field realized that we didn't have enough library and archive conservators because the program closed down Texas, we collectively decided that we needed to put strategic effort into making a more robust educational program to train these conservators. And I wonder if we're kind of coming to something similar with sustainability, both in ecological and social sustainability. We are recognizing that museums are not allowed to not participate in these conversations anymore, particularly now because of the pandemic. We're having to improve our place in society, right? Even more than we were before. And so as these conversations continue to become more prevalent, do will it come to a head at some point where the programs will say, we should be dedicating time and energy into these issues? You know, is there a potential within the program that absolutely has to happen? And one of the things actually that so one of my colleagues is about to start at the Delaware program, you know, her, Alyssa. And I guess we turn together. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, she's really wonderful. And, you know, she and I have had a lot of these discussions on, you know, during lunch or whenever, you know, about sustainability, because we're both super interested in it. And then over the course of my discussions with her, you know, and wanting her involved in this coalition, you know, I was just like, why don't we get like one student from all the programs involved? And because she knows so many people, I actually had like a Zoom chat and we had one student in each from each of the programs just kind of talking about, you know, how, you know, like they can work with this community and get the grad programs involved. You know, and I feel like it'll sort of be like a two way street where, you know, they're funneling information to us and we're sharing information with them. And, you know, hopefully then kind of getting, you know, sustainability, you know, in the curriculum a little bit, obviously in a very informal way, you know, just through the students. But I just feel like that's so important. And I know also that Caitlyn Southwick has been talking to, I think UCLA and Delaware, too, about, you know, in a more formal way, getting sustainability in the curriculum. First, first things first, that's super exciting that all the programs are being gathered together because I think all of us recognize that there has to be more cross program initiatives, more cross program work. We all will benefit from that. And secondly, I think that it is really important that this becomes part of the curriculum. I think part of the problem is that I'm just going to take like salary negotiation as an example of what every one of us needs to know and needs to be informed on to benefit the field to benefit all of us individually, future conservators are placed within the museum sector. I mean, we all need to learn about salary transparency and how to negotiate for ourselves. That is something that is kind of critically important. It is something that we cannot avoid. And yet it is relegated to kind of optional conversation or maybe a handout or maybe you have to learn about it separately. It's not part of the curriculum. And I think that it's I argue maybe that these topics that aren't material focused, they're not technical, they're not analytical. They seem like they're not related to the core of conservation. Actually is the core of what we do and we need to stop pretending like they can be put on the sidelines, that they can be supplemental information. They're not going to happen if we don't prioritize them. To both of your points that having the graduate programs, you know, come together, be that via student engagement or, you know, faculty engagement. I think that adds a sort of layer of accountability. That's really important in this work. Like everyone sort of knows that these are really critical issues. But when you create coalitions and communities and continue those conversations over a long period of time, people are held accountable to keep grappling with those issues in their everyday practice. And that's, I think, part of what's so critical about your work, Kate. Yeah, I think that's a really good point. You know, exactly. It keeps us accountable. And like it also helps to motivate, you know, and to keep the energy going. I agree. One thing that I learned recently was that we should all be a bit more cognizant of who the stakeholders are when we're having these discussions. And within the university, the stakeholders are several. But one of the major stakeholders are students. And so while I think it is a little unfortunate that it that it will kind of rest on the students back to push for this change, I think that they have an incredible power to ask why this is not part of the curriculum. And so I think that we can come at it from the alumni side. We can come at it from the pre-program side. And that's actually already happening. I don't know if you guys have seen that there are some petitions and such being circulated to change some of the program requirements. But I think we're all realizing now that we we have more agency than we've given ourselves credit for creating change or at least asking questions that I think that's a really excellent point. And that makes me really happy and excited. And it just is really important to remember sort of as I, you know, think about this coalition and think about this community is that, you know, we do have a lot of power and yeah, I mean, I love that. Because I think about, you know, all of the climate crisis activism that's really been happening around the world and who's doing that, too. And it's the students, you know, it's really young people who have really gotten this into the forefront of, you know, so many conversations and so much thinking. And I feel like that's had a really big influence on me, too. You know, seeing what those kids are doing, doing also thinking about, you know, my son, who is three and like what I want for him. We have a lot of uncertainty right now. But I think what all of us know for certain is that if we don't take strategic, informed, quick and long term action, there are really dire consequences that we'll have to face. And I think as part of the definition of a conservator, we have to face this head on because cultural heritage that is both people and their histories in their material and immaterial forms are being affected and will continue to be affected by this. So we really don't have the option to say it's not our problem. I think we're also in a unique position to understand it. And this idea comes from my colleague, Gabby Tu, who I work with at AMNH, who's just been really incredible in having these conversations with me. But, you know, she pointed out to me that, you know, we're sort of both science trained and, you know, like social science trained. And, you know, we kind of use both sides of our brain in that sense. And I feel like we can really tackle this issue from a lot of different sides. And I feel like that's so important. And not many fields do that in the same way that our field does. And I feel like it makes us really like uniquely able to do something about it. Yeah, absolutely. We're in an interesting kind of intersection. And like we were saying before, that means that there are many different fronts on which we can be thinking about this and taking action. And, you know, all of us have to figure out where our capacity is for change. Where do we have influence and and recognize those those points of opportunity and kind of catalyze on that? Absolutely. Have you found any platforms that you're like, this has been working for me? I'm definitely still, you know, like thinking about that question. And one of the I mean, one of the things that I've just been been kind of leaning towards is actually using like Google Drive. Because it's something that we all have, you know, you don't have to like sign up for something. You don't have to join a Facebook group if you have problem with Facebook. You know, and I just kind of want to have like an easy digital place where people can share information and go to for resources. But, you know, in my conversations with the AIC Sustainability Committee, Christy Romero actually suggested Stash, which is used for conservators for a lot of storage solutions. But one thing that they have on that website that I really liked is, you know, like a place where people can kind of submit their idea and then it will be reviewed by, you know, a few people and then published to the website, you know, so it's just like everyone's ideas can be shared in just this really simple streamlined way. But, you know, it's reviewed before it's published. And I just really loved that idea. But I really just want to try to make this as inclusive and easy for everyone as possible. Like one thing I want to do now is just kind of get like a core group of people together, you know, really hash out some ideas and then kind of reach out to controversy in general, you know. And that's actually part of why I wanted to speak to you guys is just be like, can we, you know, give all of the listeners my email if there's people who want to talk to me? I want to talk to them, you know, maybe just post something on the diss list and kind of find out who is interested in, you know, talking about these issues and, you know, really just kind of identify, you know, the people that are already working in this and those who want to start. You know, and then we can just all kind of get together, figure out what works for most people, I think, and probably go with that. Other major things that I have learned so far as I try to figure this out is just that, you know, anything that I do has to be really flexible and really adaptable, you know. And hopefully this just keeps growing and I'm sure that that will mean that it keeps changing, you know. So I and I want that to happen, you know, so we might start off with one thing and then end up doing something else. And that's totally fine. I'm sure that maybe like some smaller sectors might develop too, right? Like people who are particularly interested in community outreach, that side of it, people that are interested in the green energy sector, people that are very interested in social justice, right? These are all kind of smaller groups that are important to be connected and kind of collaborating and communicating across sectors. But everyone can put energy into whatever aspect that they think that they can contribute to. And that's great because they're, you know, 100 percent. And that's really a huge part of why it's so important to me that this just be like open to everyone, you know, because everyone has their own ideas and their own focus and their own passion. And I feel like that only makes, you know, this larger community that much stronger and that much better. And so that, yeah, exactly. You completely like hit that on the head. Yeah. Oh, it's been such a great conversation. I'm so thankful that you have taken the time to talk to us about this and taken, you know, steps to creating this space within our community. It's it's just really great. It's a it's a really important conversation to be having. And I'm sincerely grateful. Oh, well, it's really been my pleasure. And, you know, I hope that we can continue this, you know, not on the podcast. And, you know, as you said, and I said, anyone who wants to reach out to us, I really, really hope that I hear from so many people once this is published. And we can just really figure this out and, you know, get going and just create a lot of positive change. You know, and I just like I love talking about this. I feel like every time I talk about it, I learn something. And that's just it gives me a lot of hope about, you know, the things that we can accomplish. Yeah, us us too. OK. And this thank you. This was such an energizing conversation. I it's something that I think we really need it right now. Good. Yay. Yay. OK. Do you have any final closing thoughts that you want to share before we wrap things up? I feel like we really, you know, touched on a lot of things that are really important to me. But I would say that and I'm sure that you talked about this with Henry. I did not get a chance to listen to that podcast yet, but I feel like for people who want to get started in this, that, you know, just checking out the 17 sustainable development goals is a really great place to start. And that was super helpful in me thinking about what I wanted to do and how I could could get started. So I would say people should definitely check that out. And then if they do want to get started on this, just to do it. But also make sure that you're taking care of your mental health in doing this. I know we talked a lot about that today, too. But, you know, this can be overwhelming. So take breaks, give yourself a mental health day, you know, but also like there's a lot that you can do. So, you know, feel energized and and excited and and let's talk. Wise words, Kate. Thank you. What a lovely way to end the conversation. Thank you again. A sincere thank you to Kate for joining us today and for all of you for tuning in. This is going to be the last of our invited guest speaker episodes for this season of the podcast. On our next episode, Natalia and I will be speaking with Marie Des Rochers, who is the incoming digital platforms co-officer for ECPN, about this program and what we've learned in the process of having these conversations. So we hope that you'll tune in next time and you'll continue to subscribe on your favorite podcast app. Until next time.