 Okay, welcome back to our second hour of introduction to counselling, where we're doing our topic on the Christian counsellor. We left off in our last class on talking about certain elements of the Christian counsellor. And yeah, I think Samuel had two questions. Samuel, if you're there, it would be great if you can bring about your questions. Yes, yes, yes, thank you, Passo. So Passo, the first question was around formal secular training as a counsellor, or even psychology, and how much would that benefit or be essential to a Christian counsellor? Like the way character is formed, the way our, I don't know, neurons or brain circuitry work and things like that. I don't know what are the topics under the formal education, but so someone, I mean, I can see a lot of value for a Christian counsellor going with the secular understanding of the human brain and also equipped with the scripture and prayer and empowered by the Holy Spirit. So I can see that. And also maybe a little bit of danger of not having the secular knowledge. I don't know if there is a danger of not having secular background and just going in as a counsellor and trying to counsel someone who is clinically under depression or, you know, like, I don't know. So again, I think maybe one question is the difference between a psychiatrist and a counsellor probably, so it borders to that as well. Like for example, I can imagine a psychiatrist, a Christian psychiatrist to be able to counsel as well as prescribe certain drugs, whereas someone not trained in the medical field might just be listening, does it limit? So the first question was around how much of, there's definitely benefit, but what is there, is there a limitation? Are we a little disabled as counsellors who would take up counselling but without the proper medical or secular knowledge? And if there is a short version of getting equipped with that, what's like the best way of going about it? Or even in this course, do we have scope of learning a little bit about the human brain or anything at a very basic, fundamental level? Okay, you had one more question to Samuel? Yes, the other question is, this is something that I keep thinking of. So even as you were sharing that when we experience certain things, when life brings certain circumstances to us, we learn so much from it. And sometimes it's also we learn by making the wrong choices. Theoretically, we understand a few things, but we disobey and we go and then we learn and then we realize, okay, and it brings a new revelation and then, okay, I'm never going to do this now, so we make certain resolutions. So there is definitely a lot of value to learn by experience, but to learn from others' experience or to learn from council is, I feel it saves time, saves a lot of heartache, saves a lot of energy, money, like a lot of resources is saved if I can just learn from others. For example, let's say anything, drug addiction or adultery, these topics are often preached and talked about. So at a theoretical level, a person might understand, okay, adultery is bad, an illicit relationship is bad, but there are chances that the person might get into it, get into an illicit relationship and then find himself or herself in deep waters and then somehow by the grace of God come out of it and then understand that this is, but if the person would have learned that, not just theoretically, but would have learned it enough not to fall into that trap, rather than having to experience it and then realize that. So this art of learning from others' experience or learning by council saves time, saves energy is more beneficial. However, it's compared to learning by experience, it's like, if all of us learned with council or learned by listening to others' experiences, then probably we wouldn't, we would avoid so much of heartache and so much. So now as someone who is trying to teach someone from council or like, I experienced this, so I'm telling you from experience that this is bad or this is not the right way or right decision, but for a counsellor who is learning, she might hear, she might understand it, but whether she's completely equipped, not, so I'm struggling with the other aspect, the bigger thing is how is learning from others' experience, how do we learn from others' experience in a way where we are wiser and at the same time how do we teach others in such a way that we are able to impart that knowledge where while learning the experience may be the best, I mean, maybe the most effective way but generally not in terms of avoiding so much of pain and trouble. So these were the two broad questions. Okay, all right, I'll try and answer this as best as possible. So the first one where I think Samuel asked about, you know, the importance of secular knowledge or to know the science of psychology, behavioural science for a Christian counsellor to function as efficiently and effectively as possible. And I think there is a lot of wisdom in psychology and in that kind of a science. And I would recommend that any of you who are wanting to pursue counselling should take certain short-term courses in the field of counselling psychology for you to be able to get a good wraparound and understanding of how it functions. I'll give you a very simple example. And I think that's one of the examples that even Samuel bought about is let's say someone who comes to you with clinical depression. We always may think clinical depression has its root either in a spiritual problem or it's a root in an emotional problem. But when you look at depression in itself, you know, depression can be caused because of a thyroid issue, you know, physical thyroid issue. It can be caused because of certain structural changes in the brain. It can be caused because of age related issues. So there are certain medical physiological conditions that can cause certain psychological emotional disturbances. So someone who does not approach a person or a problem holistically can be in the risk of not helping effectively. Okay. So that's one part of it. The other part is even understanding personalities of people. We're all very different and unique in the way that we express our temperaments. And psychology really helps us to understand some high points of certain personalities, low points of certain personalities and how that interacts with their spiritual experience. Okay. Like, for example, you would have seen people who are extroverts, you know, can actually go and talk to many people about God and Christ and all of that. But people who are more, you know, withdrawn and more within themselves may find it something, a difficult thing, right? So just being able to understand this aspect really helps as to how we develop different strategies and how people could evangelize. And so what I'm saying is, you know, the psychological science really helps to build a good overview about, about behavior, about the mind, about the brain, about emotions, about perception, very many things. And I think that is necessary. That is something, if you are pursuing this as a career or want to pursue this as a really strong ministry, doing that can actually help build your repertoire of skills. Okay. Now the differences, but what we were talking about is that so yeah, there are differences between a psychiatrist and a psychologist. Yes, there are those differences. Now a psychiatrist is more medically taught, which means they go through medical school as well as they do have certain bits of their education with regard to psychology and counseling. Whereas a psychologist does not go to medical school, they work a lot more in the interactions of behavior and relationships and personality. So that is one of the basic difference. So to be able to have a strong background in psychological science and also be deeply grounded in the word, I think is like a double weapon. Okay. It really helps because you're able to see it at some part from a human mind perspective, but there are some conditions that you look at it spiritually as well. So to have that discernment, and I think it is important to have a good balance of a secular knowledge of it as well as a biblical understanding of it. Okay. The second question of yours, you said learning by counsel, rather than learning by experience. So one of the skills that a counselor does use about learning by counsel is a skill that's called, sorry, a technique that you use, which is called a self-disclosure. So there are appropriate times in a counseling relationship that the counselor can self-disclose. Maybe certain things that may seem similar to what the counselor has spoken about or something where, you know, the counselor found something personally useful. There is a provision like that. It's a technique that is used in order to help the counselor be motivated towards learning from the counsel that they are receiving. Okay. However, it's not something that we back on. It's not something that you would always do because you're taking off the focus from the experience, taking off the focus for the experience to teach the individual rather than, yeah, for the experience to teach the individual and using counsel to teach the individual. Okay. Well, you would do that, but then it's finally the choice and the determination of the counseling themselves to take, to learn from maybe somebody else's life or to learn from their experiences. But you give them that kind of a choice. Okay. But I think as humans, we are so wired that you will never be hit on your head until you experience something. Right. Like, let's say, think of your own child. You may be asking or you may be teaching your, telling your child, you know, this is what happened to me. This is what I did and this is where I went. Your child will be willing to hear, but then unless and until, you know, they go through that same situation, it's when that becomes really consolidated. Okay. And so learning by counsel is helpful. And that's why we have testimonies. And I think testimonies is one way that we learn that, okay, you know, this person went through this and this is what they did. Maybe they spoke the scripture. They did this or they sought that kind of a thing and they learned through that. Right. So yes, it is an effective thing. And we use it. Like I said, in self-disclosure, we use it in counseling, but nevertheless, I think a lot of as human beings, we need experience. We live through experiences and then as a result is what we learn. So I think that's how I'd like to add that. Okay. All right. Okay. Good. Just, sorry. Go ahead. So you would still say like, so learning by experience is what has to happen, is what you're kind of suggesting. In counseling, you learn a lot by experience. So like for example, and I think some of the principles that we're going to learn will highlight that a little bit. In the sense of let's say, let's take an example of a person who comes to you with adultery. Okay. And yes, you're helping them look at what this kind of behavior does to them or what kind of fallouts it would have to them. You're doing all of that. All right. So what are you doing? You're actually teaching them by counsel. That's what you're attempting to do when you're helping them look at the pros and the cons. Okay. But if they do choose and they say, hey, you know, I still, yeah, I know what you're saying is right, but then, you know, I just can't give away my attraction to this person. Then it becomes learned by experience. Right. Because you are in a place, I think you're not enforcing your counsel. You are bringing forth wisdom and helping them as they explore and understand. But at the end of it, it's the choice that they make. So that's what finally gets them to learn by experience and maybe not by counsel. So they may shun your counsel, but they can never shun their experience. So I think from the way that I see it, I think a lot of people learn by experience and more that they do by counsel. All right. Thank you. Yeah. Okay. All right. Yes. Yes. Christopher, you have a question. We'll just take this last question and get it on to class. Yes, Christopher. Go ahead. Yeah. So I was just actually, while Sam was asking the question, I was just thinking through this and I was not sure whether it was about, you know, the experience that was on, you know, on the part of the councillor or on the councillor. So... The councillor. Christopher, the councillor. Yeah. So I guess I'm just flipping it over on another sort of perspective. A councillor having the experience of certain areas in life where they come from having that experience and then, you know, coming out of it and then being able to, you know, provide counseling. So, I mean, I remember there was a pastor. I'm not sure. I can't remember who it was, but he was recounting the story about, I guess, another pastor who actually went to a person who was a drunkard. And, you know, he was just telling him that, you know, I made the statement saying that, you know, drinking is bad. And this person, the drunkard came back to the, I mean, spoke back to the pastor and said, you know, I know that. I know that drinking is bad. And, you know, you have, you know, theoretical knowledge, I have the practical experience. So in a way, he was basically making a point that, you know, that there are challenges that, you know, that, you know, he has a coun... I mean, the drunkard has maybe as a councillor has. And in spite of that, he's, you know, he's doing what he has to do. While on the other hand, the councillor, in the case of this pastor, doesn't have that experience. You know, he's just coming in from a more judgmental sort of attitude. A knowledge base maybe, yeah. Yes, yes. So, and also what comes to mind is, you know, there are people who have gone through those life experiences and, in a sense, reformed. So, you know, classic cases of, you know, people who are, who have been alcoholics and drug addicts and, you know, they've been able to, you know, by the grace of God come out of it and then being able to set up their own centres to offer, you know, counselling and, you know, places where, you know, they can address this particular social issue. So I guess that that's the point I wanted to make was where the councillor who has the experience may also, you know, be in a position to provide very practical kind of advice, given the fact that, you know, they've actually experienced it themselves. So just thought I'd bring up that point. Okay. Yes. Thank you. Thank you, Christopher, for bringing that up. Yeah, absolutely. All right. Great. So the next couple of minutes, 30 minutes, we will look into the next part of our class, which is principles. We're going to be focusing on principles of counselling. Okay. When we think of the word principles, principles are, I'd say certain things, like certain guidelines that we use to apply when we establish this relationship between the counsellor and the counselling. Okay. Remember that between a counsellor and a counsellor, the relationship that they share becomes the medium for change. Okay. So what transpires in this relationship between a counsellor and a counsellor and counselling, how they engage, what they talk, what they say, all of that becomes the medium for change and for transformation. Okay. So it is, this relationship is a dynamic interaction of not just the emotions from the counselling, but even from that of the counsellor. And the specific purpose is to bring about a transformation in the counselling with regard to whatever issues that he's come up with. So the purpose of establishing this relationship is to help the counsellor to deal with whatever their needs or their problems are. Problems are. Okay. And this relationship becomes stronger and is strengthened when it is bound by some of these principles. And we're going, there are seven principles and we're going to be taking each one of them. So what I've done is I have, for each of this, I've started off with an example so that we can, we can have some kind of an understanding about what these means. And so it's just not words, big words that we need to swallow. Okay. So if you look first of all, it's the principle of individualization. I will come up to explaining what that is. But let's just look at a scenario here. Okay. I'll read this out for you. A young couple has just had a newborn baby and they realize that the child is physically challenged. The husband being physically challenged himself is quite calm and composed and accepting of this reality. Whereas the wife is troubled and very distressed at the thought of a differentially able child. Okay. What do you, how do you think a counselor should approach this mother? How do you think the counselor should approach this mother? Any thoughts, ideas? Father looks quite okay, well adjusted to the reality. Whereas the mother or the wife is very troubled and distressed. So how would a counselor need to approach this mother? Don't worry. There aren't wrong, right, bad, good answers. We're learning. And so very critical situation here. Such a difficult scenario. Okay. All right. But how do you, how, you know, what, what would you do to help this mother? Yeah. Somebody would like to unmute and quickly just in 30 seconds. What would you like to do or what would you like to say? Okay. I'm getting some responses. Please repeat the question. Anita, I asked how would you approach this mother? What would you do to approach this mother who finds, who's really first upset with the, with the differentially able child or the child also has a physical challenge, right? Okay. So how would you approach? So Chai says, we'll try to understand the mother. Prabhakar says best is to listen to her. Rose says, I put myself in her shoes by listening, by listening, relating, relating or probing. Okay. Try to talk about the reason for her fear and concern. Okay. All right. Okay. All right. So, you know, when we look at a situation like this, sometimes what would, what does a medical doctor do? And I've seen, and this is a real situation and I did see the medical doctor saying, telling the wife, there's nothing to be concerned about. Your husband has been physically challenged and he's lived well and effective life all this long. So your child will also pick up. Is that sensitive? Do you think that's a sensitive way? Okay. It isn't, right? So what is, what did, what has been the expectation? The expectation is, you know, if one person can deal with the situation like this, why wouldn't you not deal with it similarly? All right. So that's generally maybe an expectation from when you're having two people in for counseling, one reacts one way, the other reacts another way. And you say, and you expect that the individual, that maybe the mother here or the wife in this case should be, um, uh, acceptance about, about that, this reality. Okay. So the principle of individualization, uh, a, so the principle of individualization. So what is it, what, what is the premise? The premise is that there are no two people who are alike in all qualities and traits. Their problems may be the same. The cause of the problem may be maybe also the same, but the perception towards the problem or the strength that they have will differ. Therefore each person should be treated as a separate entity. Uh, and, um, you know, you need to have complete information to establish that close relation with the person so that you can, uh, so that you can understand the, the root of what they are going through. Okay. So individualization means to work with an individual or analyze an individual, not only from a single aspect, but from different aspects. So remember that every individual is different from others and unique in themselves. And the problem of every individual is different from another and it depends upon, uh, their intelligence or their statuses or their understanding, their own experiences, their own physical difficulties. And the mode of helping must be in accordance where you are seeing each person in, in their own levels, in their situation, in their strengths, in their capacities, in their resources. Okay. So it is based, this principle is based that each person has a right to be who they are. They are individuals. They are unique people. And you don't want to mold them into being somebody else or respond in a different way. Okay. The recognition is to understand that they all have, each person has their unique qualities. Some may be, uh, more empowering. Some may not. Okay. But you recognize that they can differ in the way that they, uh, they cope. Like for example, the husband has a, maybe has a, has a coping that is, is much effect, much maybe stronger. Whereas the wife being in a condition like this, definitely does not have a good enough, uh, resilience or coping in that kind of a situation. So that's perfectly okay. There is no comparison that one should be like the other. So you use methods in order to assist the person to a positive frame of change, a change. And what we are focusing on, they need to be treated as people with differences and it is okay to be different from one another. So the principle of individualization is based that, based on the premise that it is okay. It is that they have a right to be who they are, the way they experience their life, the way that they promote all of that, there is a right in who they are. So that's called the principle of individualization. Okay. So an extension of this is not comparing that, you know, this is not how you should be behaving. This is the way that you behave. You should have this kind of a resource to deal with it. You should become stronger. None of that. They are, they are accepting of the fact that they are individuals as unique as they are in their individual expressions. Okay. So that's the first one, which is the principle of individualization. Okay. The second one, as before we go on to the second one, I'll just probably give you certain, again, examples so that we, you know, we have a context when we're building these guidelines. Two case scenarios here. A young wife lost her husband to sudden death. She comes to you and cannot control her tears and her emotions and is incessantly crying. Okay. Or this one, a man is sharing and says, I'm so depressed. I can't work. I can't think. I just sit here all day. Nothing gets done. Okay. So, so how would we respond to people who come to us in situations like this? How would we respond? Susan, I'm not sure if you responded to this one. It is God's will fulfilled in your life according to the word. I don't know if it was in response to that, that maybe you would say, you know, the loss of your husband is God's will or you're depressed because that's God's will. I'm not sure if that's what you intended or it was for the previous one. No, ma'am. It's about the previous one. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So what would you, if you see in both these examples, there is a lot of emotional expressions, right? Someone is crying. The other one is extremely depressed. Okay. Yeah. So Chai says understand her and feelings and her feelings. Okay. And his feelings. Okay. So I'm going to move in. Otherwise, you know, we may not be able to complete. So let me. So we're looking at the principle. The next principle. Sorry. The next principle here is the purposeful expression of feelings. So I think I want to make a mention over here is that especially in our culture and I'm speaking on the behalf of Indians here, or maybe even South Indians to be more specific is that expressions of feelings are never in our generally not very much encouraged. And for all of us who've grown up, you know, maybe as children 10, 30, 40 years back, you would have seen that if you're upset, you get upset in the four corners of your room. You know, you're not allowed an expression of, of your feelings outside. Right. So the expression of feelings in even in cultures sometimes can be very stifled. Okay. Sometimes are not as seen as a sense of weakness are seen as a sense of a hindrance. Okay. Whereas in other cultures, you are openly permitted to express your, your emotions. Okay. So even an understanding and that's why it's important to know the culture of the person that you are helping to counsel because it gives you a fairly good, you know, it gives you an understanding if you're red and if you've interacted with people of that kind of a culture, you know how they express their emotions and their feelings. Okay. And then you get a context about what could be happening. So what is the purposeful expression of feelings? It is the, it is the recognition that the counseling has a need to bring about their emotions, their feelings freely, especially those that are negative. Okay. It is a recognition that a counseling needs to express their negative feelings. Okay. And it is, it is permitted. It is allowed. And how does the counselor reciprocate that it is okay to express those feelings is by listening carefully, is by encouraging those expressions is also by stimulating. So what does that mean? You're actually going to throw in words and techniques that will help them to emote even more. All right. Now for this example that we saw earlier, this example that we saw earlier, like, like, you know, a young wife lost her husband and she's, she's crying. How do you stimulate those expression is not by saying, you know, happened has happened. Your husband is in a better place is with Jesus is facing all his joy and happiness there. Shouldn't you be happy? Right. That is throwing guilt. Right. That is throwing a sense of question to what they are emoting. Right. But rather how you would stimulate it is I, I just cannot imagine how pained you are or how much you miss your husband or this loss has probably been very, very difficult for you or that you, you, your grief is some, something I'm sure you feel nobody can understand. So what, what is it that you're doing is you're actually stimulating this or an, encouraging this expression of feelings because in order for a counseling to be able to come to a place of understanding, they have to be in a place of exploring what they are going through. So a purposeful expression of feelings is something that is important. This is a very, very key and important principle in a relationship skill. And this is not just for a counselor and counseling. Even as a counselor, even as a person who's relating to another, this is a very, very important skill that, that you need to develop. Okay. And encourage them to, to express their feelings and not withhold it and not keep it within. Christopher and I can see that particularly men. Yes. To be able and the only way that you can get sometimes people, you know, grow up not knowing how to express that they just do not even feel the need. But through the skills of a counselor, that's the second principle which, which is, which is important. Okay. Let's move on to the next one. Let me give you an example before we go to the third, third principle. So here you have been called to be a man in the hospital. Before you go in to see him, you find out through talking to the doctor that the man is terminally ill. You go into the room and the man says to you, I want to ask you something. I'm going to die. Do you know? Can you tell me, am I going to die? Okay. What would your response be? Okay. Quickly. If you could put up that example, it'll, I mean, just, just your response. What would it be? No, you're not. Okay. All right. I'll just do this either yes or no. Right. Okay. All right. So let's look at the principle. Okay. The principle is called as controlled emotional involvement. Okay. The principle is, is, uh, called as controllable emotional involvement. Now, just to give you, um, and understanding of this is, um, so it is, it's, uh, what happens for counselors also is that there can be a tendency for a counselor to be too emotionally involved in the life of their counselors. Okay. And that's the principle that it's talking about here is that you are, you're not at all, you're first of all being sensitive to the counselors feelings. You, you're doing your best to approach them with sensitivity, but as well as to keep an objective involvement in the problem of the counseling being objective in the way that involve yourself. Okay. Involving in, in, in them as a person as well as in their, uh, in their problem. So even as you're making an effort to understand what they're going through, you feel compassion, you feel empathy, but you're not in a place where you are jumping in to resolve everyone. I'm sorry. I think I, I, am I audible? Yes. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So the objective involvement, what we mean here is not maybe there may, there's not necessary to answer the questions that they may ask you at all points of time. Okay. And the idea is to understand where they are emotionally. So for this person, for this example that we were talking about, uh, let me just get back to the example for the person, for the example that you're talking about, how being objectively involved is by the news that the doctor has given you about your terminal illness. And I do also sense that there is fear about what you're going through. Do you feel fearful? So what am I doing here is continuing to help them to express what they are going through emotionally rather than giving them maybe an answer for something that I may know or I may not know. Okay. Maybe for some things that you are, you do know, you wouldn't prematurely answer a person when there is so much of emotions that are laden in this. Now, when you just speak to this man, you know that there is fear. There is a sense of abandonment. There's a sense of frustration. There are so many things over here. And when you actually answer it, you've taken away the opportunity to really help deal with the person's emotions that they are going through. So your involvement is something that requires to be one objective. It requires to be sensitive and it requires to be one where you have kept a fair amount of distance in approaching or resolving the person's problem for them. You know, you're not, you don't want to go there and say, okay, I will go talk to your spouse if he's having an affair with somebody else. No, that's not your job. Your job is to help them to number one be able to express their emotions and come bring them to a place of understanding where they are. And your involvement, when it becomes objective helps the councillor to take on more reins of their problem and their issue. Okay, so a controlled emotional involvement is important, especially when you are dealing with people who have very strong, in strong situations where it can be extremely painful being able to teach yourself on being objective and helping them to process these emotions rather than giving them quick fix answers on dealing with those emotions. Okay, so that's the, yeah. Great, Charles, I like that. Your quick answer might kill the man before you share, so sensitivity is paramount. Absolutely. So just being able to help the councillor to understand his fear, what is his fear about? Or, you know, maybe initially it is just acknowledging or you seem really afraid or you seem, as if you're isolated, as if no one can help you, you seem that you can't rely on anyone, isn't it? So it may be initially just that where you are responding to what those feelings and then coming to a place of really exploring where those fears are coming from, where that abandonment is coming from and bringing them slowly to a place of either acceptance or to a place of exploring other ways of dealing with their problems. So that's what we mean by controlled emotional involvement. All right, moving to the next one, I have another four principles. So I'd like to finish this. So please bear with me for maybe five to ten minutes. Okay, the next one, an example, is a young woman comes to talk to you about God and his existence. She feels that she can't break away her allegiance to her God, but yet would also like to treat Jesus as one of the many gods. Okay, so that's the example that you have how would you approach this? How would you approach? Now, even as we're looking at this entire example, we do know what the truth is. Okay, but when you are faced with a person who, how do you deal with a person like this? Okay, and this is where the, sorry, this is where the principle of self-determination comes about. Now, what is self-determination? Basically, it means you're helping the councillor to come to a place to take their own decisions. And you believe that your councillor has the right and the free will to make their own choices and their decisions. So they have a right and they have a need. It's written a need within certain limitations and they have freedom in making their own decisions and choices. Now, what do we mean by certain limitations is they can only make a choice for themselves. They cannot make a choice for others, right? So it is whatever right they have in making a choice and you hold that as a principle that the councillor has the right to make their own decision and their own choice. Even though it you know or it appears to you that that isn't the right way to go. Okay, so being careful not saying that, hey, you know, you're doing the wrong thing. Don't come back to me after this saying that you've made a mistake. Don't tell me that I didn't warn you like how you talk to your children, right? Don't tell me that I didn't warn you. See, this is what you're up to. Now it's all your business, right? In counseling, what you're helping the client, the councillor to do is to, you may be opening out different options, but you're that right that they have whatever decision that they've made, you respect that. And you keep away from direct or indirect interferences, maybe talking to the client's wife and saying, hey, you know, I told him that you also say this and maybe we can get this happening or directly saying, you know, this is the wrong thing to do. This is not how it should be. This is the way to follow. All of this is impinging on the free will of the individual. So giving them to help, what as a councillor you are doing is to help them see the different aspects of it, the pros and cons of it, but finally they're the ones who determine and make their own decision, okay? So that's what exactly needs to be done. Sorry. Yeah, I think I'm back. Yeah, because I think the internet is, I think it's on my end Prabhakar. I hope I'm audible to all. Okay, so as I'm so sorry, I think I'm having significant network issues. I think we, what we can do is probably we'll take this on from next class. We have just one or two more principles to continue on with because of issues I'm not able to continue. So can we continue on next? We will take this on from where we stopped, that is the principle that we were talking about. I hope that's okay. We will take on the next two principles, the last that we have in our following class. Can we quickly just close with the word of prayer please? Heavenly Father, we thank you for what you are calling each one of us to do. Thank you that this is a responsibility that you desire of us Lord, that we engage with people who are broken and hurt. Lord, with the same approach that you used Father, Lord, even as we understand these principles and elements, Father, we pray God that you would make us more like you, compassionate and loving and sensitive. And yet Lord to be able to speak the truth and love, help us Lord to whoever we may be dealing with as councillors that we will entrust them in your hands. And Lord that you will be their strong wisdom and you will be their strong guide. Thank you for each one of us in the call. We ask all this in your precious name, amen. God bless, we shall continue next week. Apologies for the network issues. Thank you, God bless. Thank you, Pastor. Thank you. Thank you, Pastor.