 I have the greatest pleasure in introducing the moderator for our next session, the former British ambassador to Cairo, Cedric Plumlee. What we had our very first conference in 2006, Cedric was the ambassador there and very kindly launched the book on our conference in the embassy the following year, just before he stepped down. This session is called Reflections on the 1919 Independence Movement. Ladies and gentlemen, Cedric Plumlee. Thank you Noel. It's good to be back, addressing another major Egyptian marker in time, so to speak. And thanks very much to the Middle East Institute and all the rest of you for organising this. It's my privilege and we're running a little late so I won't speak at enormous length, but to open this session and to welcome Munir Thakri Abdel Nour, who is our next speaker. He's a friend, I guess he's a friend of quite a few people in this room, and he has had a very distinguished career as a banker, as an entrepreneur, as a politician. He was a secretary general of the new WAF party in the 2000s as a minister. He was a minister of tourism, after what I will call the January 2011 revolution, and he was a minister again of trade, industry and investment from 2013 to 2015. Like one or two others in this room, and I can look around and I can see them, he has family connections for a family link to the subject that we're discussing today, the 1919 revolution, and the turbulent events that occurred after that up to 1925. His grandfather Thakri Abdel Nour was an activist, a leader amongst the leaders of the nationalist movement. He became close to Saad. He was imprisoned in 1922 by our four fathers, and he went on to write his memoirs, which are a massive work which was introduced by Mustafa Amin, who was the doyen, I suppose really, of Egyptian journalists and editors in the 20th century, and who had grown up in the home of Saad Zaglul, and Mustafa Amin called Thakri Abdel Nour a new gibberty. I like the gibberty who'd described the Napoleon's adventures in Egypt in similar chronicling form. Munir is a prime mover behind the things that are happening in Egypt to mark the 100th anniversary of the revolution. And I know he has been very keen to link that commemoration, so to speak, with whatever was happening here, which seems to me, since this is very much an Anglo-Egyptian story, important. He's promised to tell us a little bit about those events, but his theme, as you know, and he's written a long paper on the subject, is Copts in the 1919 Revolution, an exceptional participation in Egyptian political life. And he's going to summarize that for us, I think, really, and speak to the main themes thereof. And we will be returning to the subject I notice again tomorrow afternoon, so it repeats itself. It's important. The Copts are Christians, who knows, because there isn't a precise figure, but 10% roughly of the population of Egypt. But politically, they have rarely pulled their full weight on, even that weighty, even, on the Egyptian political stage. The focus before the First World War, immediately before it, was very much on Coptic grievances and who were crystallized in the a conference that was held in Asyut in 1911, when they set out demands, which were not well received by the British, I have to say, or at least my old engorst. And afterwards, the theme has recurred from time to time in Egyptian political life, and Menir, in fact, is a symbol in one way of this, because he is actually one of the few Copts to be directly elected in recent decades to the Egyptian parliament, which is not to say that there are not. Another one is in the audience, actually, we are doing really well. Yes, exactly. But there aren't very many such people. Anyway, 1919 to 24, 25 is a very different story. Copts are amongst the leaders of the nationalist movement. The cross and the crescent became the flag of the revolution. There were meetings in mosques and churches and priests in imams were seen holding hands and making speeches together. It was a different message, a message of al-wahda al-wataniya, which has continued, actually the images at least, have continued to resonate in Egyptian politics since then, really countering, it seems to me, some of the negatives that I've already mentioned. But it's not for me to describe all of that. It's for Menir, who knows the subject intimately, and he's going to tell us just how different it was and what happened and why, and then we can do Q&A. Thank you. Thank you, Derek, for this introduction. Let me warn you, I'm not a historian. I'm not an academic. I'm merely an evident reader of contemporary Egyptian history and a born of this. So I think I know my subject and I'll try to relate to you my opinions. I thank you very much for inviting me to attend this conference. It is an honor for me to be in this distinguished assembly, and it's a great opportunity to meet friends I haven't seen for quite a while. For us, it is a very important event, the celebration of the centennial of the 1919 revolution. And we made it a point to celebrate it if only to remind Egyptians of the values of this movement that has called for independence, democracy, respect for the constitution, for the rule of law, and for secularism. It's a movement that has witnessed the birth of the Egyptian feminist movement and the renaissance of fine arts. And this is why the Ministry of Culture has organized an international conference that was held in Cairo between the 16th and 18th of March that was extremely well attended by scholars, politicians. Apparently there are several events that have been organized, including exhibitions of fine arts, photography, music, all related to the 1919 revolution. I must also tell you that by Malem who's here has published a series of books, all books concerning the 1919 revolution. All universities, all universities in Egypt have celebrated this event. The Waft party, of course, is doing his job. And at the end of the year, Bibliotheque Alexandrina is organizing a conference that will focus on the influence of the 1919 revolution regionally in neighboring countries, Sudan, Iraq, Palestine, Syria, and the Maghrib. And also the relations between the Egyptian independence movements and other movements, including, by the way, Ireland, as you know, as you might know, Sazerlul had a correspondence with de Valera and in order to coordinate their fight against the British Empire, the British rule. The conference also is going to discuss the relationship of the 1919 revolution and its influence on the Congress party, more specifically on Mahatma Gandhi in particular who was admiring Sazerlul and thought that Sazerlul succeeded to unify Egyptians in their quest for independence, whereas he personally failed to unify Indians of different creeds. And in fact, the active participation of cops alongside the Muslim countrymen during the five-year period is precisely the subject of my talk to you. But what I'm going to talk about is the contrast between what happened those five years and the place of cops in Egyptian politics and public life in previous and subsequent periods. The contrast is huge and it raises questions how and why. Why was it that way in 1919 and it wasn't neither before nor after. I'll attempt to answer the question but let me start from the beginning very quickly and very briefly. Through the 18th century and the beginning of the 19th and even during the enlightened rule of Muhammad Ali, cops were zimmers. They used to pay the jizya in return of which they were exempt from conscription in the army. Exceptionally, individuals were accepted in the administration and raised in the Egyptian bureaucracy and held important positions such as Gurgis and Ibrahim Egory, the two brothers, and Mahallem Ghali during the rule of Muhammad Ali. But starting the second half of the 19th century, cops started to recoup progressively their citizenship rights. In 1854, Said Pasha, the first son of Muhammad Ali, issued a decree abolishing the jizya and as a result cops were admitted in the army as soldiers and he issued a second decree giving the ownership rights to the peasants ownership rights on the land and as a result cops started to own agriculture land. Under the Kiribis Ma'il, cops were allowed to enter state schools to be sent abroad to study at the expense of the state, then were accepted as officers in the army, it was a big big step, and in 1866 were appointed in the chamber of notables precisely what is called Maghlish which is the first attempt to have a parliament in contemporary Egyptian history. Two cops were appointed, by the way, I have a long, the paper is much longer than what I'll say verbally and all the names are in the paper. In 1882, cops like the patriarch supported the Arab revolt and rallied around the slogan Egypt for Egyptians, and as you know the revolt ended up by the British occupation of the country. In 1893 under the reign of Kedif Abbas Helmi, the first coped, I mean coped, not Christian, was named minister, it was Butros Gali who was named minister of finance, later he was appointed minister of foreign affairs, in 1908 he was prime minister. During the reign of Abbas Helmi the public debate flourished, in 1913 there were 282 newspapers published in Egypt. Among those newspapers there were two Coptic newspapers, Mish and Erotan, but they did not really, they were not active in the public debate, they concentrated on Coptic issues, grievances, demands and so on. At the same time several political parties were formed, again cops were not stimulated by the political parties. We saw as if a prominent cop joined Hezbel Watani, but Hezbel Watani that was formed by Mustafa Kamil, but had cold feet when this party started to use fanatic discourse, very Pan-Islamist and so on. On the other hand, rich Coptic landowners from upper Egypt joined Hezbel Oma, Hezbel Oma that was the panseur behind Hezbel Oma was Ahmad, would we say it, the architect of Egyptian liberalism. A number of rich landowners joined Hezbel Oma, but were never active, really active in the organization of the party or on the political scene. Names like Bushra and Sinot Hanna, by the way Sinot Hanna is an important name that will follow through the five years, the Andraus Bishara and Fakhre Abdu Noor, who was one of the founders of El-Garida which is the newspaper behind that political party. In 1913, Abbas Hidmi signed an organic law to establish a legislative assembly, El-Gamaya Tashriaya. Four cops were appointed, one of them was again Sinot Hanna. In July 1914, the war erupted, the legislative assembly was suspended, martial law proclaimed and on December 18th the British government declared Egypt a British protectorate. A chapter in the history of the country was turned during which cops succeeded to regain most of the citizenship rights. However, with the exception of a few individuals, cops did not participate in the political and public life of Egypt. They were marginalized. In fact, they sidelined themselves. They felt alien when Egypt was part of the Ottoman Empire and when the national movement promoted Pan-Islamism and did not really get involved in the public debate or in the national debate. When the Coptic intelligentsia in November 1918 got to know about the meeting between Saad Zarul and Abdulaziz Fahmi and Met Regional Wingut to ask for to participate in Versailles conference and Saad Zarul was forming the waft. They noticed that there were no Coptic names in the waft. Three of them, three of those intelligentsia, namely Wisa Wasif, Taufi Andraus and Fahri Abdul Noor, went to meet Saad Zarul to tell him in so many words that nationalism is not or should not be monopolized by Muslims. And they proposed to have the name of Wasif Boutros Ghali included in the waft. Saad Zarul welcomed this proposition, included in the waft Wasif Boutros Ghali and in addition included Sinot Hanna and George Chayat. Before taking the oath, George Chayat asked point blank Saad Zarul what is the position of Coptes in that new order and that new independent Egypt. Saad Zarul told him they have equivalent rights and equivalent obligations like Muslims. Suddenly everything changed. Coptes rose to the front lines of political and public life of Egypt. When the revolution erupted when Saad Zarul was exiled on March the 9th, Coptes were in the front line of three demonstrations. As a matter of fact, the first casualty that was killed was a young Coptic student by the name of Mehir Hafiz Amin. When Saad Zarul was released and traveled to France with hoping to participate in the peace conference, he was joined by Wasif Boutros Ghali, Sinot Hanna, Gorgi Chayat, Wisa Wasif, Aziz Mansi, George Domani, and they were there, they were present and stayed with him. When the government employees decided to have a general strike, the leaders of the general strike were Sada Henein from the Minister of Agriculture, Dr. Nagib Eskander from the Ministry of Health, the Judge Salama Mikhail, a judge representing the Ministry of... In April 19, Coptes rushed to participate in the Waft Central Committee that was formed to liaise between the leadership and the members of the Waft and the leaders of the leaders, the Coptic leaders that went into that Central Committee, where Mour Oshanna, Tafiq Dos, Kamil Boutros, Habib Chayat, Fahmi Wisa, and many, many other names. Later, in April 1921, two years later, when the Prime Minister Adliyakar objected to the organization by the government employees of Reception to honour Saad Zarul, who arrived after two years of absence between Paris and London, it was again Sada Henein, Salama Mikhail, Nagib Eskander, and Makram Ibeid, who challenged the Prime Minister. In fact, the reception took place, but the organizers were tried by the disciplinary court. Coptes were again in the front lines to welcome Saad Zarul when he took that trip to Upper Egypt and despite the very heavy hand of the police and of the administration, they were there everywhere in Minya, in Assout, in Sohaq, in Gerga, and so on. They were in the front lines to receive Saad Zarul and they were there to bear the consequences of their enthusiasm. Sinot Hanna and Makram Ibeid were exiled to Saad Zarul, to Seishel, and then Saad Zarul to Gibraltar. Wasif Ghalimur Oshanna, Wisa Wasif, George Chayat were tried and sentenced with Hamid al-Basil, Salama Mikhail, Raab Eskander, and Fakhla Abdu-Noor were arrested and jailed with al-Maslisadi in July 1922. Between May and June 1923, when the leaders of the waft were released, coming back from jail, from the exile, the High Committee of the Waft was constituted and it was constituted of 26 members, nine of which were cops, nine out of 26. But cops were also the most active and probably the most competent when it had to do with contacts with foreigners. In Paris in 1919, Wasif Ghali, Sinot Hanna, and Wisa Wasif, the three of them perfect francophone, contacted the French press, the opinion leaders such as Anatole France and many others. They wrote articles that were published in La Revue des Domains in Le Journal and with a view to raise the attention of the French public opinion around the Egyptian problem. In fact, they also wrote letters to Georges Clemenceau who was prime minister and obviously the letter was signed by Saad Zarul but Clemenceau never answered. And they succeeded to get the support of part of the French press, mainly the socialist press and in particular of l'humanité and of le populaire supporting the Egyptian cause. Similarly, it was Macron Abid who went to, in 1921, to England to follow up on the negotiations between Adliak and Lord Curzon, the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. And while there, he also contacted opinion leaders, writers and politicians from both the Liberal and the Liberal Party. He published articles mainly in the Daily Herald, among many other newspapers, and he was in close contact with journalists and writers including George Bernard Shaw. It was Fahri Abdel Nour suggested to Saad Zarul on the 14th of July 1921 on the occasion of the French National Day to go to attend, to crash, as a matter of fact, the reception to send a message to the foreigners in Egypt that the Egyptian national movement was neither fanatic nor xenophobic and the message was that it will preserve the interests of foreigners in Egypt. It was, finally, it was Sinotana and Morosana who received and invited the Liberal members of the British Parliament who arrived in Egypt in September 1921 on a fact-finding mission at the instigation of Macron Abid who was there, who was then in England. And cops were definitely the most faithful to the cause and to Zarul personally. I mean, each time that was, there was a problem and a problem between the members of the waft, they stood by Zarul. It was the case when members of the waft in Paris disappointed by the recognition of Woodrow Wilson of the British Protectorate over Egypt disappointed a lot of the members left, the one who stood where the cops with Saad. Again in 1920, after the negotiations between Zarul and Lord Milner in London broke, disappointed the members left, the cops remained with Zarul in London and back to Paris. Precisely it was Wasafrili and Sinotana together with Ali Mehre. When the controversy started within the waft in Cairo, around the presidency of the delegation to negotiate with Lord Curzel and the choice was between Adiak and the prime minister and Zarul insisted to be the negotiator because he had the mandate from the people and he was preserving the right of the people to speak and to have a position. Members of the waft left and those who stood by Saad were again the cops in addition to Nahas. And cops were the most extremists and I'm using the words used by the British, I mean this is the British description. They were the extremists and I take as an example Sinotana in particular who was writing articles in the newspapers. Strangely enough in the Coptic newspaper that used to be a Coptic newspaper, the MISR and who used to concentrate on Coptic issues and Coptic affairs suddenly had become the mouthpiece of the waft of the national movement. Sinotana started to accuse and attack the prime minister Mohamed Said because he was taking legal measures against government employees who led the strike, the general strike in April 1919. So he accused him and wrote an article titled in the Atahem copying Jacques of Emile Zola and to the point that Said had to resign. He accused he attacked also the successor of Mohamed Said and successor Mohamed Said was a Coptic prime minister Yusuf Wahaba because Yusuf Wahaba was ready to receive Lord Milner in Cairo whereas the national movement had decided to boycott the Milner delegation and he attacked Yusuf Wahaba vehemently and in a series of articles titled Erwatanea dinuna war istaklal hayatuna meaning patriotism is our religion and independence is our life. I mean the the his speech was so inflammatory that it inspired a young Coptic student Elian Yusuf Sa'at to attempt to assassinate Yusuf Wahaba. In July 1920 Abdelahman Fahmi who was the Secretary General of the Central Committee of the Waft was accused of was arrested and charged with conspiracy of attempting to overthrow the government. He was tried along with nine other Coptes. In return Zaghloul showed his appreciation and expressed his gratitude to Coptes in many ways. It is true when they came to propose to include Wasafradi not only he welcomed Wasafradi but he included Sinod Hanna and George Hayat but after two years of absence between Paris and London when Zaghloul came back the first thing he did on April the 6th 1921 is to visit the tomb of a Coptic nationalist who had succumbed to the bullets of the police during demonstrations. On April 7 he visited the Coptic Patriarch Patriarch Kirolis V. In May on the occasion of Easter Zaghloul visited the tomb of Bothra's Basha Rally then went to greet Coptic leaders of the Waft in their houses to wish them a happy Easter. In September 1921 he attended the wedding of Yusuf Bothra's Rally the brother of Wasafradi and the grandfather of this one of this Yusuf Bothra's Rally wedding that was attended by the liberal MPs visiting Egypt. Later in September Zaghloul presided over a ceremony on the occasion of the Coptic New Year he then narrows and he delivered a speech emphasizing the importance of unity of unity between Coptes and Muslim. In December 1923 while preparing for the parliamentary elections Zaghloul was very worried that his Coptic colleagues would not succeed would not make it in the elections and asked Sheikh Mustafa Iyati to go and support Sirot Hanna in Asyut, Fahri Abdel Noor in Gerga and Makram Abid in Qina to support them in face of potential fanatic Islamic claims. In the parliamentary elections 16 Coptes won seats out of 214 some of them in entirely Muslim constituency. A far cry from previous periods when they had to be appointed as representative of minority. In fact they were not perceived as minority anymore. Finally once Zaghloul formed his cabinet in January 1924 he appointed two Coptic ministers Wasafradi as Minister for Affairs and Moros Hanna as Minister of Public Works not withstanding King for Ads Reservation who reminded him that customs entitled Coptes to only one ministerial post. But Zaghloul appreciation and recognition of Coptes role in the revolts cannot have been the only reason for Coptic enthusiasm and involvement in political and public life of the country. Some argue that Coptes were particularly active during this period because they resented the fact that the British didn't sympathize with them as a minority. And there is truth to the British lack of sympathy for Coptes as illustrated by Edward Lane the famous orientalist who and the writer of the famous book Modern Egyptians an account of the manners and custom of modern Egyptians. Lane was extremely harsh describing Coptes. I'm quoting one of the most remarkable traits in the character of Coptes is their bigotry. They bear a bitter hatred to all other Christians. They are generally speaking of a silent temper extremely avaricious and abominable dissemblers, liars. Unfortunately Lane's defamation of the Coptes has been passed on to innumerable Britons who came after him including Lord Cromer, Eldon Gorse. I guess Derek Plumbly is an exception since he married a Copt, but anyhow. Dr. Butler, Dr. Alfred Butler the historian, the author of The Arab Conquest of Egypt, confirmed in his introduction to Kirakus Mikhail 1911 book Coptes and Muslims under British control that policies and practices of the British government in Egypt favored Muslims at the expense of Coptes. It is likely that Coptes' active participation in the fight for independence was a reaction to the lack of British empathy for them. But the most important factor I believe that traced Coptic enthusiasm for the national movement was the secular character of the 1919 revolution. A secular character that emphasized the unity of all Egyptians regardless of ethnicity or religion. It was I believe the definition and clear formulation and expression of the Egyptian identity that was the major reason for the active involvement of Coptes in the political life of the country. In fact, since the beginning of the 19th century Egypt was in search of its own identity. Under Muhammad Ali, Said and Ismail Egypt wanted Egypt wanted to affirm its own identity away from the Ottoman Empire, but it failed because the balance of power was not in its favor. Then in 1882 although the Arab Revolt raised the slogan Egypt for Egyptian, it was unable to properly express Egyptian nationalism and lost its way due to xenophobic sentiments. Then came Mustafa Kamil and here I guess I'm answering the question that was raised earlier. Then came Mustafa Kamil who in order to safeguard Egypt's independence vis-à-vis the British colonialists promoted Egypt's allegiance to the Ottoman Empire and his successors promoted Pan-Islamism. In contrast to those movements, the waft inherited the secular and liberal thoughts of Hezbollah. And like Lotfi Said strongly believed that Egypt is a nation by itself, Egypt is Egyptian. The discovery of the tomb of Tutankhamun in 1922 helped foster Egyptian identity and gave rise to a movement of pharaohism which became a manifestation of Egyptian nationalism. Coptes claiming to be the direct descendants of pharaohs had to be at the vanguard of this movement which portrayed Egypt as a Mediterranean nation with links to Europe. Later through the 20th century several events contributed to reinforcement of the Pan-Arab and Pan-Islamist political forces and changed the course of the Egyptian national movement. In the 1930s the nationalistic and fascistic young Egypt society led by Ahmad Hussain while advocating British withdrawal from Egypt and the Sudan promised to unite the Arab world under the leadership of Egypt. At the same time pharaohism was condemned by Hassan el-Banna the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood whose doctrine like it was said earlier whose doctrine does not recognize nation states and aims at unifying Muslim countries under the Islamic rule based on Quran and Sharia. After 1952 Nasser played up Egypt's Arab identity and promoted the policy of Pan-Arabism arguing that Egypt that all Arab states should unite under his leadership to face the political and economic threats of imperialism. Nasser's successor Anor Sadat confronted by Nasser's and communist challenges relied on the support of various Islamic movements. He promoted Egypt's Muslim identity in 1980 he amended the constitution promulgated in 1971 to stipulate that Sharia law is the main source of legislation under his rule Saudi Arabian influence of dominated media and public education it had a deep impact on Egyptian culture to the point that Islam was portrayed as the cornerstone of Egyptian identity and once again cops were sidelined from political from the political realm. In conclusion I would argue that throughout the years cops have only been inspired and motivated by secular movements based on Egyptian nationalism and Egyptian identity. The political and cultural environment of the period going from November 1918 to January 1924 encouraged Egyptian to raise the secular slogan religion is for God and the nation is for all Deenullah it had the extraordinary effect of pushing cops out of the sidelines to the forefront of the political and public life in Egypt. This made this period a unique one in contemporary Egyptian history. Thank you. I will then ask you a question. Do that. I have two. One is why did you choose the subject and what is it particularly that drove you to this and secondly I'm if we're looking at the broader picture I mean you're saying only in the context of this purely secular as it was almost political environment was this degree of participation possible aren't you actually rather writing cops out of political life in Egypt when maybe more compromises had to be made. Now let me answer the second question. No I'm not writing off cops when I'm talking of Coptic participation I'm talking of the community participation I'm not talking of individuals. Individuals were always there. Was it window dressing or was it the again the rise of a competent person within the administration within the bureaucracy it was before and after it was never the participation of a full community in the streets in the government in the political parties in the political forces in literature in fine arts in cinema in I mean everywhere look at it has changed and it has changed I think it is the result of lack of secularism again I repeat cops in general it's not necessarily my opinion I'm just describing what has happened and what is happening they are not enthusiastic when you're talking of pan islamism they feel left apart and they are very doubtful when you're talking of pan Arabism they are not sure or it is not the majority of cops they believe that they are Arabs it's a fact why did I choose this subject I've always been struck by the facts of this active participation during that period and then when you look around for instance there was a comparison between 1919-1952 in 1952 the revolution started by a coup d'etat made by army officers and it was the three officers Zubat al-Ahra they were 400 none of them was a cop I mean something is wrong something has changed I'm sorry something has changed and this is precisely what I'm trying to emphasize and this change has sidelined the cops from the political life yeah they might be brilliant businessmen they might be excellent traders they could be they could be good diplomats but they out they are out of political life they can have brilliant minister of finance possible but but they are not in political life and if they are their exception it would be an exception Dr. Mengti thank you very much do you believe that I'm a cop myself like you but didn't you believe there is an element of what I call Coptic apathy to participate in political life and activity to be blamed and would you agree with me that the great party of what party was basically near the end before the 1953 revolution was nearly destroyed by a cop as well I misheard the last part of the question can you repeat it please raise your voice dr. Magdi because I'm okay I have a problem no I'm taking about the great waft party near the end the difference between one single coped and Nakhaz Basha have led reality to the mice of the waft party possible of course mind you I'm I'm talking about a five year period I didn't go any further because starting the 1930s the mood changed the mood changed and when makram left the waft I'm sorry it did destroy the waft it did destroy the waft because the the message itself was destroyed and the message disappeared now you're talking about apathy yeah maybe I mean they were not invited and they they they did not invite they were not invited in the political realm and they they they did not fight to get into that political realm thank you um thanks you mentioned the patriotism is it on you mentioned the patriarch only once in your presentation and were you two have discussed events in 2011 or 2013 presumably that figure would have come up more frequently and I wonder therefore if you could address the role of the patriarch and the the institution of the Coptic church in your five-year period as compared to the present day thank you for your question first of all since you mentioned 2011 and 2013 uh because I wanted to save time so I just skipped a page but if I have to be fair I would tell you that cops were present in 2011 revolution or whatever you want to call it they were there they were in the streets despite the fact that the patriarch uh Pope Shenoula with who's who's was a huge man I mean a very strong personality uh asked cops not to get involved and nothing doing they were there in the street but I mean it was such a short period that uh I would not and it would not overrule what I'm saying that the five years between 18 and 24 is an exceptional period and it was never repeated it was very very short uh the the patriarch the patriarch Kirolos uh the the patriarch of the 1919 revolution uh was very much no no I'm talking of the fifth I'm talking of the fifth Kirolos the fifth of the 1919 evolution was very very close to Sadzach rule as a matter of fact as a matter of fact they died the same year in 1927 and they were very close and the visits the visit I mentioned one visit to Sadzach rule to the patriarch he visited him several times uh it was the same yeah it was the same patriarch who supported uh uh the the arabi revolt in 1882 but the character of the church was somewhat different wasn't I think in terms of its authority and the relative weight between the the the the leaders of the community the leaders the leaders of the leaders of the community yeah the the leaders of the community then mind you it was the church was a poor church and it was led it's a question of financial ability and it was led by uh the civilians uh uh the the the the cop this the coptic leaders the civilian coptic leaders it's not the case today today the coptic church is a rich uh church as a result of uh the the coptic diaspora and uh obviously it gives much more weight to the coptic nomenclatura church nomenclatura I think honestly I'm receiving strong signals from uh the floor here that we're going to miss lunch if we get uh if we actually extend further one question one question one question okay that uh gentleman yeah okay that's it and then we're just intrigued and I am not um disputing the fact uh about the marginalizing of the cops uh after 1952 however the pan arabism at least from the levant was actually a movement by the christian anti-pan islamism absolutely and in a way in nasser after the first period was fighting the pan islamism view and concentrating more on pan arabism and both were defeated later but uh why is it that the cops of egypt did not link the same ideas that came from syria lebanon and whatever you know the you know the answer the national movements in the levant was against the Ottoman empire was against the caliphate so uh uh their their claim was the pan arabism as opposed to the pan islamism and pan egyptianism if you want to 1919 the the the the egyptian national movement was facing the the the the british empire it was not facing at all the uh the the ottoman empire and and in face of the the british empire it was egyptianism that was uh put uh i mean that was the claim but it's not only i'm sorry about that macramar bedan his fight that have destroyed the relationship from 1930 till 1952 this was a prelude to putting the egyptian cops outside the political spectrum so what has happened briefly in that period to marginalize i think honestly we will have several several things i mentioned i mentioned the the rise of the muslim brotherhood i mentioned the rise of the fascist movement of muslim fatah and uh if you are here tomorrow we can come to this we have another session with another speaker on the whole question of goptic identity and minority identity so thank you very much it was amazing