 OK, so welcome to this evening's Solicendro Tyllwn Studies seminar, second one of the week. I'm delighted to welcome back Professor Bob Johnhal, who is here on Tuesday doing his first lecture that looks at the topic of Indigenous voting behaviour. And today he's moving on to a topic that, straightly enough, my students have found really exciting. This year, quite a few of them have written papers on electoral systems, and to get a sense of how exciting your talk is, I've had people emailing me questions from Teijo, and when we come to the Q&A session you have questions from distance. OK, so tonight's session is part of our contemporary Taiwan Indigenous Studies series, that's sponsored by the Shriny Museum. What we're trying to do in this project is to do a series of lectures that look at modern-day issues that affect Taiwan's Indigenous peoples, and we'll be developing this over the next year. Hopefully eventually we'll have a broad project out of this. Professor Bob is someone who's given a number of SOAS talks over the years. His first one was back 12 years ago, when he was still a PhD student at Hull. At Hull he started off in Southeast Asian Studies and then moved to political science, and that was the route that he's developed since. For his PhD he looked at democratisation of Singapore and Taiwan, but since he's graduated he's shifted his focus to look at the politics of Taiwan's Indigenous peoples. He's looked at this from a number of angles. It's a topic that Taiwanese political scientists have tended to neglect, partly because so much of political science in Taiwan is focused on statistics. While statistics have only limited use when we look at Taiwan's Indigenous peoples. Although, as we saw on Tuesday, it is possible to bring statistics into this topic. In many ways Professor Bob is a kind of exceptional political scientist in Taiwan. He combines both qualitative and quantitative angles to look at Indigenous peoples. It's a topic that's really been mainly populated by sociologists and anthropologists. So he does really welcome work. It's work that's again received quite a bit of attention among our students here. On that note, let's give Professor Bob a big SOAS welcome back. Well, that is his fifth SOAS Taiwan study. Over to you. Thank you. Mackay, I think I have to spend a little bit of longer time for this talk. Today we are going, this is part of the book project, will be one chapter of that book. So I'm talking about the electric system and the Indigenous political representation in Taiwan. I will divide it into five parts. Well, no, sorry, four parts. Basically, I think, I think the main, I'm talking about the behavior is influenced by institutions. So about the political representation of the voting behavior in Taiwan for Indigenous people. It's quite shuffled by the institution. So I was started from the Indigenous people and the Indigenous peoples. I explained what is the Indigenous people's idea in Taiwan. And secondly, we're going to the electric system in Taiwan. They go for Indigenous voting behavior. Finally, we go to the Indigenous political representation. Indigenous people and Indigenous peoples in Taiwan, Taiwan society usually regard Indigenous people as a whole. And we can't distinguish who they are. So Indigenous people is not a single race. In fact, there are at least 16 different Indigenous races, legally recognized by the government. Actually, we have more different races. On the other hand, we have around 650,000 Indigenous people in Taiwan. And the largest number is from Amis. I use the red one that means the Amis. Government and the Sahizaya, they both, they have the, sorry, I have the Guilma. They were planned Indigenous people, planned Indigenous people. The old black one is the mountain Indigenous people. Green one, that means son of land, might be quarter by one and half of them. Sahizaya, they are mountain people, mountain Indigenous people, or planned Indigenous people. So planned Indigenous people, we have about 46, 47 percent, and the mountain Indigenous people, about 53 percent. So administrative identity is inherent. It can't be charged. Administrative identity is not determined by your race, but by where your senses live in the Japanese colonial area. You may change your administration identity once, if your parents are both Indigenous people, but one is planned Indigenous and the other one is mountain Indigenous. Then you can choose when you are 20. Then you can choose which one you want to inherit. So since more than half of Indigenous people have moved to metropolitan areas, we now have certain different Indigenous people, metropolitan Indigenous. These people are not recognized by the government, but their behaviour is totally different, quite different to those people who still live in China. So in the eyes of government, only two different Indigenous people are on the island, but actually we have so many different Indigenous peoples. Do we talk about the electoral system in Taiwan, and I'm talking about the dual democratic system in Taiwan? Because in Taiwan, the Indigenous people use totally different, what I would say is a different electoral system like the normal ordinary people. Now in Taiwan, for ordinary people, we vote for our MP, use the system exactly sent to Ukraine. So one constituency do elect one MP, only one seat. But for Indigenous people, for Indigenous elections, we still use the old one as a single non-trade football system. That means the entire Taiwan was divided into two constituencies. One is the mountain Indigenous constituency. One is the mountain Indigenous constituency. The other one is the plan Indigenous constituency. So which constituency you belong to is based on your identity. So then we have a two role, two electoral role, and a guarantee. We guarantee Indigenous people you definitely can be elected in two parliament, but you will be limited until you have only a limited number. Three plan Indigenous MP and three mountain Indigenous MP. So about, I'm not quite sure about do I have to spend too much time on this one. Single non-trade football voting system might be not, you might not be familiar with that, but since you are studying about Taiwan, probably you know. Okay, I just quickly do this quickly. Single non-trade football voting system, or SMTV, is an electoral system used in multi-member constituency elections. In any elections, each voter cast one vote for one candidate in a multi-candidate race for multiple race offices. Post filled by the candidates with the most votes, the three seats constituency and the three candidates receiving the largest number of votes would win office. SMTV can be used with non-partisan voters. Personally, I think SMTV is the most interesting electoral system. It's because it's not just about candidates. And the party or employee rules. And the voters, they all have some kind of strategies for voting behaviour. So this kind of system is quite interesting and contributes a lot of scholars, because we can contribute papers about this one. Okay, so, and sometimes it happens. Basically, this part I directed the video because I don't know how to... Not that easy to explain. So if we have five candidates and three different parties, and that is the vote that we see. So obviously, the CDE, they win the seats. The two are from the Z party and one is from Y party. Obviously, Y party gets more votes than Z party. But the seat, the seat, the Y party gets one seat, the Z party gets two seats, the X party gets nothing. So for the party, the candidate's interest, the candidate's interest and the party's interest is conflict. It's basically a conflict. For candidate, of course, he wants to get as many votes as he can. For the party, they want to distribute the vote equally to ensure as many as their candidate can win. So under SMTV, under SMTV, if you are candidates, who is your enemy? Usually it's not the other party's candidate. Usually it's the candidate from your own party. So SMTV usually results in facturism within the party because you usually fight with your own comatose. So it's potentially for technical voting. The potential for technical voting in SMTV system is large. Receiving only one vote, the rational voter must only vote for a candidate that has a chance of winning. But they will not win two by two greater margin lost taking votes anyway from party colleagues. How to say that? For voters, before you cancel your ballot, you are going to think about it, do I waste my vote? So you won't vote for those people they don't have chance, they don't have winning chance. But at the same time, you don't want to vote for that candidate they may win too much, too many votes. So you will think about which one. They may have a chance to win but need your vote. So during SMTV, we usually have a very strange situation where happen. All candidates say, I'm in danger, I need your vote. If you are too confident, if you are too confident, usually you will be the one to lose the election. Because your vote will be transferred automatically by your supporters because they want to help others to win. So this is also a great opportunity for technical nominations with parties nominating candidates similar to other, sorry, their opponents candidate in order to split the vote. For a party, they also have a technical nomination. For example, for example, a party nominated a very powerful or very popular candidate, a female candidate. I'm the big party chairman. I don't have anyone, I don't have any candidate like you, like this female. So sometimes I will nominate a candidate we usually call him Bang, Suicide Bang. Similar to this female, they may just have a higher education background. They are both female, they have received a higher education degree and they may form the same tension. Very similar to you, very similar to this candidate. And for a big party, I nominated this candidate. The purpose, I'm not, I don't want this candidate to win. I just want this candidate to split the other candidate's vote. And maybe I can reduce the A party's candidate's winning chance. And so, it is reasonable, sorry, it is rational for a party in a, sorry, a three-six constituency to nominate four or five candidates. Because some of them, their nomination is not for winning, but for bumping another candidate. Okay, so SNDV can also reach down in the complicated intro party dynamic because the SNDV system candidate must not only run against the candidates from the other party, but also against all candidates from their own party. I think the main, the major enemy is from your own party. So our party must ensure their supporters evenly distribute their votes among the party's candidates. To be frank with you, my thesis about the master's degree is talking about this strategy. So let me go to the point in this electoral and modern indigenous electorate votes. The idea was divided into two indigenous constituencies, plain indigenous constituencies and modern indigenous constituency. So which constituency you belong is determined by where you are in the Japanese colonial era. Once your ethnic identity, once your ethnic identity has been decided, it is almost impossible to change. So therefore it can be seen family or tribe members belong to different constituencies. That is very possible. Husband and wife belong to different constituencies, and mother and son belong to different constituencies. So as a candidate, you can only run for the purpose of deciding the constituency. So that is a very funny or ironic thing is, for example, we just mentioned a group, a group called Baewan. Baewan, many layer, many layer of modern indigenous people, but in Taidong Pong, in Taidong County, the Baewan in Taidong County layer, basically they are plain indigenous people. So Baewan was divided into the North Baewan, South Baewan, and the East Baewan. East Baewan is basically they are plain indigenous people, and they never have a chance to have their own representatives. Never. Because for the plain indigenous people, the majority is Amis. Majority is Amis. And gradually they are ignored. They are ignored and neglected. And they appear to a government, they say that we are belong to, we are all by one, so we should be, we should be incorporated, we should be mountain indigenous people. But once the government agree, once the government agree that, then the government will face a lot of different difficulties. Because the entire system will be, I would say the entire system will be destroyed. I would say it will be destroyed. And in the past, in the past about 10 years, we just mentioned that Majority have this Amis, and it's also a indigenous politician. And I cooperate with, we work together at the field government, we say we want to abolish this kind of this system, indigenous, sorry, the mountain, and the plain indigenous people, this is unnecessary. Unfortunately, our government still insist, or they just don't want to listen to us, because many because the politicians, once the electoral system, once the electoral system is changed, so they are going to face the new situation, and they don't want to change. So, under this kind of system, so we have a guarantee about the isolated indigenous political participation. Central and the local legislative body reserved seats for plain and mountain indigenous people. For example, the street plain indigenous NPCs, and street mountain indigenous NPCs are reserved for indigenous people. However, unless the political parties placed indigenous candidates on their PR list, the maximum number of indigenous MPs in the parliament will be six. But in this, now in our parliament, now in the legislative body, we have eight, because the two parties, two parties nominated their indigenous people on their PR list. However, six out of one hundred and thirteen says indigenous MPs will be the minority forever. They will be the minority forever. They can't give up their identity to run for general parliamentary seats. So, you do have voice. You do have voice on the floor, and you are always an isolated minority. And what happened in our parliament is quite strange, because indigenous people have their own visitatives, and they usually speak for indigenous interests. And we can see on the floor, we can see in the parliament, some of them are indigenous, some of them are not. So, if I were indigenous, then I speak about indigenous issues. All other MPs, they will listen to me, and they don't question about me. And they just keep silent. So, usually I talk about indigenous issues. Indigenous MPs, they can exercise. Their influence is much higher than others. And also another problem is, if we are talking about the general issue, and indigenous people would like to say something, indigenous MPs would like to say something, other MPs will say, that is not your business. It do happen. It do happen. That is another research I just studied about this. So, it is something like we elected, the indigenous people, indigenous MPs were elected, but only speak for indigenous issues. But they were also MPs. They were also MPs. They really should be able to, they should be allowed to speak for all issues. But they are isolated. They are basically isolated. So, indigenous voting behaviour on the island, actually is a game for indigenous people themselves. This is their own game. The participants are all indigenous. So, I call it the concentric zone model. Family was the core. Then brother relationship, my relatives. Then we go to tribe, go to race, then go to administrative division. So, what is race? This is the relationship, how close or how far you have the candidate. They vote, the indigenous people usually vote to see if the candidate are our family members. All we have is the same problem. Do we have any broader relationship? If we don't have these two, then we can think about, do we from the same tribe? If we don't have this kind of relationship, then we go to work, do we belong to the same race? Are you on this? Are you by one? Then, if later we still don't have this one, then we see, do we live in the same administration division? If you don't have all of these, definitely, okay, 90% I will say, 90% of the opportunity, you won't get in the boat. You won't get in the boat. So, relationship is always the most important one for the voting behaviour. So, in Taiwan, in Taiwan it's for the indigenous election. That's quite interesting. We say part of the reason why indigenous politics is ignored or being neglected by the Chinese political science community because it's not funny, it's not interesting. I will say, basically you can predict, before the election, you might already know the result. You might already know the result. For example, for the planned indigenous election, I think it's from the 1950s, until now. It used to be every three years. Now it's every four years when we have one election, one legislative election. In the pot, and so it's about in the half century, more than 50 years, only one candidate, only one Puyu Ma and B was elected. But all other states won't buy armies. So, if you are not armies, don't think about it, it will win. And why this Puyu Ma can win? That is because of her father. Later I will spend some time to introduce her. So, the election is always the most important one for voting behaviour. And the ethnic voting is common or can be said as a decisive factor. So the role of the political party, for myself, is to be a home professor, I'm a home people and I'm a friend, I'm a friend of Indigenous people. That's it. So, when I go to a tribe or I go to meet Indigenous people, they will be very polite because basically they respect the professors and they know I'm doing the Indigenous politics research. But the ones, I also have a nun, have an Indigenous nun, that is the that is the Bu Nung Nen and it is recognized by someone, family, now a Bu Nung. So, I have a double identity. I'm a double identity. In blood, I'm not Indigenous people. But when I go to the Bu Nung area, I will be known to the Is Tau Wan family and they will know, they will notice, I will call myself Dauw. When I call myself Dauw, it's totally different. It's totally different treatment. I will be regarded as the... I will regard as a part of this family and I even have a right to participate in a family meeting. To handle... Okay. I can speak in the... I have to say that they still have a gender issue. Usually, female they don't have a right. They don't have a right to talk about the family issue. But because I am male and I was recognized by this family so I can represent this family to represent this family to speak in a tribe meeting. I can speak in a tribe meeting. But I still have a little problem because I'm not a good hunter. This part is still to be criticized because I am biotic. There are male members. So, why I can be recognized as a tomb? Because you must be seen. You must be seen. No matter who you are you must be seen and then be recognized as part of land. Blood is important but the recognition is even more important. So, for anyone, if you want to be their friend you want to be indigenous people's friend or you want to be a commonizer as part of land you must present yourself on any tribe occasions. So, what is my story? My story is I went to a tribe and to be frankly I am not good at the construction. But I go with land. I go with land. We go to transcribe the house, a traditional house and I was sent to the hospital on the very first day because I fell on the mountain because I don't use to land. I don't use to land and we brought a lot of tubes because we want to connect and we want to fix the water system. Then I just fall down and they send me to the hospital. But I think that land is the very good start. It's a very good beginning because they think that land was because they didn't organize, they didn't pray to the ancestors and that evening they organized an event to pray to the ancestors in the indigenous ancestors and to say would you like to reconconize and to accept these people to be part of our friends? Oh no, to be our friends. I don't know what is the result but obviously the ancestors accept me. After that day I visited this family probably once a month and seven or eight months later seven or eight months later I was accepted. When the family leader family leader's birthday party called the party, quite strange but there is the birthday party and I didn't prepare basically I know nothing and suddenly the family leader announced that I have a new name a new name is Dahu. Two family I'm still a little bit confusing why I'm Dahu. After that I immediately to take over all about the family business or family things. So you must present yourself on any tribe occasion. The reason why I talk about this is very important to voting behavior. The party, political party political party if you want to have influence on the tribe on foreign indigenous people any party can build an organization and penetrate into indigenous society. You can build it which means a party representative can present him or usually is him, not herself. himself on most tribe occasions a party will be seen and accepted. Will be seen and accepted. For example if I'm a KMD member and what I was appointed as a representative for certain area and then what is my job my job is going to present myself I'm going to participate in all occasions someone's marriage someone's going to marry then you show yourself someone's son is going to school you might accompany with him to go to school. So in every indigenous township can be a point of what indigenous call ordinate. This ordinate will be recruited from the left township basically from left township. If a KMD finds no suitable one the KMD will recruit one ordinate with the same background. For example in the Amis area I will never appoint I will never appoint a pluma ordinate that is true and that you will not do so you will not do so. You will definitely recruit appoint so you will definitely appoint an Amis and the better way is from the same township. So these call ordinate basically is your friend your neighbors. So for example at Dayang Dayang township will have a Dayang KMD call ordinate it is better to be born and grow up at this township otherwise it must be at Dayang. It's much more like a church in any tribe they definitely have a church and if a priest is not from the same group they usually can't they can't recruit a lot of believers and they will be a mistake they will definitely be a mistake So for KMD in the past half centuries the KMD built the KMD the KMD built the KMD the KMD built the KMD a half century the KMD built this kind of party organization in this township they have this coordination and these coordinators they present themselves on any occasions So that means we are friends and you represent you represent the KMD that means I won't go and support the KMD I'm not going to support the KMD because I'm supporting you I'm supporting you this coordinator they usually have this post they serve for this poster for the whole life for the whole life So KMD is the only one party to do this why other parties don't do that it should not be surprised that KMD dominated in these politics because the other parties they don't do this without the ruling party the ruling party why they don't do so it's quite strange because in the past actually from the year 2000 to year 2008 Taiwan was under DPP governance then they started they started to to build their own indigenous party branches but they failed they failed for indigenous people if you want to develop indigenous party organizations you must spend a lot of time really a lot of time I do I do my indigenous research this year is the 10th year in the past 10 years I visited tribes quite often and I was recognized as an indigenous people I was recognized as Dahu it's the last year I spent nine years I spent nine years on tribes on tribes and I was recognized as a very well known one major reason is not just about my time and also is my student my PhD student because she belongs to this family and she guarantee she guarantee I'm honest I'm truly I'm truly I'm sad that I have an indigenous heart she guarantee she guarantee that because I think I may need another 10 years I may need another 10 years then I will be recognized otherwise so this is tight consuming but only 2.3% of the popular vote indigenous people is on the population side is 2.3% 2.3% most of apart from except the KMT Mr KMT other parties they don't really care about this one because even you won't even you win this popular vote it doesn't mean you can win you can win the general election and for the same energy for the same time if you spend the same time on other constituencies you can get more the body of the metropolitan indigenous vote is in a city this is another one we just mentioned about the metropolitan indigenous people a lot of indigenous people they move from they move to a city and they register their household in a city we assume before we assume they should behave like normal ordinary people because they live in a city they have a job like us they have a job like us but it's quite strange indigenous people the metropolitan indigenous people they make their body on the city may in a city but their soul is definitely in a tribe metropolitan indigenous people they go back to their hometown quite often that is necessary because if you don't go back to your hometown your own tribe you will be forgotten you will be forgotten you will be forgotten you must be seen you must be seen in the tribe you must be in the tribe so the metropolitan indigenous vote will be mobilized by his or her family members who still stay at the tribe when the election is coming so the voting behaviour used to be we saw the metropolitan indigenous people the indigenous voters they may have different voting behaviour but actually not it's the same to the other indigenous people so then finally we go to indigenous political representation since a static voting behaviour makes the larger races being able to win seats so since 1950 playing indigenous MPs are always on me with one exception Chenyin of Huil Ma Chenyin now is the MP her father her father was was a campaign leader was a campaign leader and her father was the only one indigenous magistrate in our history in our history the reason why her father can win her father could win because campaign nominated her father was a magistrate candidate and pay for the way pay for the way to the magistrate office year 2000 when we have a power shifting and the ruling party was changed to DPP her father immediately joined DPP and once again be nominated the chairman of the council of indigenous affairs and at the same year Chenyin ran for the MPC and the entire council of indigenous affairs become her logistic support basically the entire council started to help Chenyin to run for his office and the government budget is directly into this scandal this scandal and her father was jail because of this thing because of this matter but anyway because of this one Chenyin won the seat for four years four years 12 and another four years Chenyin was nominated by DPP on the PR list of the PR list for the mountain indigenous MPs are always to Dayang but when we say when we say Dayang also we are mentioning about the Saint Jack and the Drougu because before year 2000 Dayang was have three parts was three is this combined is not combined we think Saint Jack and Drougu they are part of Dayang we say the government the government say so so traditionally all these three races they are regarded as the Dayang family and the two were elected from Dayang one is brought by one so a Pwnong MP was seen when the number of seats of the mountain MP was four that is from the 1995 1995 to the year 2000 2008 at a little moment because at a little moment the size of our parliament is 225 sorry 225 seats so at a little moment we are located in the status four for mountain mountain indigenous people at a little moment we have one Pwnong MP however 16 races but only three or four races have there all representatives to those races we allow their own representatives to their interests be ignored actually this is the main reason my very first family article talk about the indigenous party is talking about this issue before I wrote that paper almost everyone in Taiwan they talk about they say this way of poverty the indigenous people if they don't have their own representatives their interests will be harmed and no one speak for them I don't believe it I really don't believe it but I have no evidence I have no evidence so how did I do how did I do I started the question is do these indigenous legislators represent their respective constituencies always speak for all Taiwan indigenous people or just for their own people so affected by sorry before I I asked myself this question so how do I prove it so I collect the data from the debating on the floor and the questions on the floor and also their proposal their real proposal and the final I found out affected by electoral competition the indigenous legislators tended to respond to the electoral race however to list indigenous legislators a referendum electorate is not confined to the voters registered in their respective constituencies but all indigenous voters in other words Taiwan's indigenous legislators regard themselves as the representative of all indigenous peoples why if you are mountain if you are mountain indigenous MP you can you only need mountain indigenous voters to support right but the problem is if you support me probably your family members are playing these people they can't be divided because this is very likely for the Taiwan people many times and I am an MP elected from Taiwan but part of part of Taiwan they are playing these people so I also needed to look after their interests I also needed to look after their interests this question is quite common and establishment of council of indigenous people and the transformation of indigenous social movement are two crucial factors to affect the indigenous legislators representative behavior this is another one this is another one used to be we don't have council of indigenous people we don't have this organization but in the 1996 at that moment the county was the dream party has a very weak majority they still have a majority in the parliament but very weak if this indigenous MP decided to support DPP and the county will no longer enjoy the majority so at that moment at that year this indigenous MPs they they demanded to establish to establish the council of indigenous people at that moment at that time amount of indigenous MPs and playing these MPs they cooperated each other and indigenous social movement that is also very important because indigenous social movement they don't they don't say you are mutating these people or you are playing these people they are fighting for the same issue and they want to get the same they have the common purpose and they share the common interest share the common interest we used to be we don't call indigenous people we don't call it we say you are mountain people that is quite strange mountain people and the plain mountain people I really don't know why we use that name but that's quite strange so for the indigenous social movement the very first issue the very first one they demand is going to change the name official name from the mountain people to indigenous to indigenous and at least also bring the mountain and the plain indigenous people they become together so the number of content of the video by indigenous legislators are highly affected by the political party and the constitution they belong to mountain indigenous legislators are more active land plan land plan land indigenous legislator and indigenous legislator elected from the proportional with the title system far more than the legislator of non-partisan sub-union are more active than other political parties I think I have some problems it's not that one let me say independent independent I'm sorry about that I'm going to talk about why the mountain indigenous MPs are more active because they are more focused mountain indigenous people they basically live in the same area in the mountain area most of their voters live in the mountain area so they speak what they care about is the road road building road building is about water supply is about some subsidies some subsidies but for the plain indigenous people let it will be another issue because they usually live with the hard people for example if you go to Taiwan go to Hualien or Taitung we also call there indigenous area for example Hualien city Hualien city might be the largest indigenous township but unfortunately even if you go to Hualien city two thirds of the population they will harm people less than one third less than one third of the indigenous so that will be a problem and we can provide some statistics number 93.3% of the bill are proposed by indigenous legislators from the year 1992 1992 to year 2012 I said can indigenous legislators let me most of them get re-elected which emphasised on indigenous education 93.3% of the bills talking about indigenous education economic development indigenous area autonomy of indigenous people reserve land ownership and the natural resource management and the conversation for indigenous MPs what they care about they care about this and they only speak for indigenous interests and they they don't care about can say that they don't care about what else happen on the island for example if we are talking about cross straight relationship no they don't talk about this talk about economic development infrastructure infrastructure construction on the west coast they don't care about that but what they care about is about education indigenous education economic development in indigenous area autonomy of indigenous people reserve land ownership and the natural resource management and the conversation so do they care about the new clear plant power station no they don't care about that they care about the new clear west because they usually you know in Taiwan they play we dump we store we store the new clear west on the land island that is the indigenous area so in that place we care about this one indigenous people don't care about where you build where you build the new clear new clear plant power station they don't care about this one this is definitely not on indigenous area so the current the electoral system doesn't guarantee a descriptive representation of all indigenous people but actually provide a substantive representation to land because all these indigenous MPs they speak for all indigenous peoples they are not speak for the individual individual races the only one MP speak for indigenous there is her own her own race is changing in her four years time hundreds hundreds hundreds dividing or hundreds of speech she mentioned once is going to build going to build a traditional traditional house for the cultural for cultural reason let it go that is for the young people young people they are caring together and the 10 ages of course male they will be let building to accept the military training traditional military training that is the only one that is the only one that is a Puyuma we speak for Puyuma but is that true is the Puyuma interest only I am not quite sure about that I will say that is for all indigenous cultural cultural issues basically the elected indigenous legislator regard himself as a representative of all indigenous peoples furthermore although issues concerned by legislator may be influenced by constituency and party affiliation they are still they are still highly related to indigenous interests indigenous legislator in Taiwan do respond to the need of the representative sorry this is is the outline is the outline for the book chapter that David asked me to write so basically in the future I will write in these four parts I just come to share with you what is what I mean I may talk about in this book chapter and thank you ok that was exactly the kind of things that we are looking for in this book so before I go to the questions at distance let me just raise one or two questions now you have given us a clear picture of the way indigenous politics works at the national level and I was wondering to what extent are the trends that you have described also taking place at the local level so ok in November this year we will have local level elections and not only will we have indigenous elections within the kind of tribal areas but you'll also for example have indigenous representatives elected in let's say city council of someone like Taipei for example so there are the overall voting behaviour pattern similar to the national level ok about this part just like I just mentioned the national pattern indigenous people and the layer voting behaviour is basically heavily influenced by their relatives still in tribe so it's also predictable it's also predictable you just needed to when the candidate has a public you can see which tribe he or she belong to and his tribe has more people with more people in Taipei ok ok so ok if we just take one case Taipei city and I guess in Taipei maybe there's two indigenous councillors I'll make it a guess here yup two come and what is the general why is it definitely on this the other one will be Daya ok so in this kind of district then there's no mountain playing yup that is only for Taipei city ok they don't have this kind of this kind of white type of city they don't have ok so something like Gaohsiung or Taijong they do have because they have more than 3 cities ah I see ok because they have more than 3 cities so in Taiwan if for any cities more than 2,500 2,500 2,500 in these people then you must reserve seat for indigenous and for soldiers so only when mountain indigenous people voted in that city the number of land more than 2,500 and then they came they are on they just made it ok I see and to what extent does the behaviour of these politicians match that at the national level so do they just again as you mentioned with national legislators in the city councillor do they just focus on indigenous issues or do they try and be broader representatives basically the same and maybe more ridiculous oh ok could you elaborate a bit on that you know for these city councillors they only need a very few number of votes to win for example for Taipei city they may just need 300 or 400 votes that you can win an election so what is why you needed to care about this all you needed to do in your 4 year time you just needed to visit each family you just needed to meet each family and to present yourself on all occasions then you can secure your seat then you can secure your seat so as long as you don't divorce you don't divorce divorce is very is very bad especially if you are 70% of indigenous people they are Christian and if you divorce if you divorce you will be criticized by the church leaders they put your political career in danger I see so it will be better if you are the joint politics either you get married and don't divorce or is it before you ok ok I have the question from Taijo I am just going to ask one question her question was because she did a master thesis on electoral systems and gender so her question was does the current electoral system of indigenous constituency favour indigenous female candidates so is there a gender element to the electoral system for no because the system is in Taiwan if the state more than four seats we will guarantee one seat for female but unfortunately for the central politics level we only have three for each constituency we only have three seats so no guarantee this is for female but for the local level they do for local level for the state council Hua Lian Tai Dong they do have some gender quota but generally overall because in all other cities we have limited number of indigenous people so they usually only have one or two seats reserved for indigenous and would you say that being a female candidate is a disadvantage because again at the national level I can only think of the one famous case and the Chinese case but overall for voters would that be a disadvantage especially for in mountain areas and mountain indigenous people traditionally for people who are female status is lower is lower than male is lower than male and if you are female and you want to run for public office usually you will be appraised by your family members because traditionally this tribe they think female should not should not should not run for public office and you should stay at home appraised very patriarchal okay well I would like to focus on your split identity you say you have another name Da Wu now this has enabled you to become accepted so this idea of acceptance into communities outside your own is something I found interesting I studied Basque for a couple of years many years ago and there's a certain Basque town that I have visited many many times there's a shot there that I have literally go into and for the first 10 years I spoke French and then one day I don't know why I decided I would go to the shop and I would speak in Basque and the grandfather was there and he said to me ah but you are Basque and if you are in the Basque country speak the Basque language it is or it's a passport okay you are not a tourist and also I spent a lot of time in Korea and a lot of people have said to me a lot of Koreans have said to me that Wei Gwchsalon foreigners who have learnt Korean are more easily accepted than returning overseas Koreans especially if they cannot speak Korean so um I'm wondering can you speak in a digital language has that been part of your process of acceptance I started with a lot I learned Sajuk first I learned Sajuk first I learned Sajuk first and I learned some I tried to because language is very important to be frank language is very important if you can speak in digital language it is more easy for you to be accepted or you can you can conduct your interview you can do your interview more convenient but that is difficult to me that is difficult to me I don't have that environment to use to use that language use that language so now I was but in Taiwan now it's also a problem even for a younger generation of Indian speakers they can't speak Indian language so so my disadvantage is that I can't speak Indian language but to be fair they don't care too much because generally speaking other younger generation they can't speak that but I already show my ambition or show my willing to learn a language so every time when I go to to visit a land I definitely have one or two hours that I will sit over there to learn the language but usually they taught me to think to think a song I'm starting on that and that is also difficult to me because I'm not a good singer I I will stay over there I will stay over there I will stay over there and to show my I'm willing I'm willing to learn this kind of language so that is also easier for me to be recognized but yes if you can speak in this language for that try that will be good that will be very good Thank you I'm interested to know because you described quite a lot of strategies that KMT actually build up the local connections and that work my question is why did KMT put so much energy into something such as so small a group of people and it's not cost effective so what's the motive behind it has it changed over the years especially since they lost power and how did they develop this strategy why other people didn't take it all The KMT built this kind of the party organizations during the authoritarian time and at that time KMT was the only legal party and the KMT was the casual party so theoretically all people on the island should support the KMT and live much more like a priest so they at the very beginning when they coordinated sorry at the indigenous area it's not for political purpose it's not for election purpose it's not for election purpose they are going to supervise supervise or is more going to teach they say they are going to teach indigenous people how to have a modern life how to have a modern life and so they usually are teachers these coordinators at the very beginning they were usually teachers the primary school teachers or the principal of the primary school they usually do this so the purpose is not for the original purpose is not for election it's not for electoral mobilization no but during the election when the principal said okay we should support the KMT because they look after us everyone said oh yes because you are you are the principal and all our children is taught by you what was taught by you as long as you behave yourself so KMT also do that if the coordinator they don't behave itself the KMT will they will dismiss this coordinator very quickly very quickly the teacher is the hand or they are indigenous people in the early time in the early time they had some teachers are hand people but for for the KMT's education that is part of reason why KMT was so popular in the indigenous area for each township every year each township will have one vacancy one vacancy reserved for indigenous children indigenous students basically you don't need to pay anything and you you do need to pass an exam you do need to take an exam but guarantee you will pass it's guarantee you will pass so you will be sent to the teacher's school academy to accept the five years training then you go back and usually a lot of a lot of indigenous families their faith was changed their faith was totally changed because one son became a teacher one son became a teacher just like on Tuesday if you are you are serving an army you are a military you are a police you are a teacher and the social status of your entire family your entire family social status will be raised I was going to bring up a point like that from my experience in the Pacific Northwest where during my lifetime there was a big transition when the schools were no longer taught by missionaries and outsiders but the first generation of graduate indigenous people were coming back to teach and that was an enormous change in the indigenous society by the way you should have copied Canada and called them the first nation it is the most admirable name I think indigenous is an ugly thing Shandee is not really properly descriptive but the Canadian indigenous are now called first nation which is a wonderful description I know that because the first nation now we have a indigenous party Taiwan called First Nation Party and I was invited to be their member but of course that is a very weak very small party but yes First Nation is now the least known this has been introduced in the time one one other thing about a year ago in Taipei the famous breakfast club had a big daily meeting in the leaf argument with representatives of the press it was a magnificent meeting and it was addressed by one of the leaf argument people whose name I am afraid I have forgotten who is putting through quite heavy legislation in favour from First Nation and so obviously the leaf argument is quite active in legislation and certainly was last year I wish I could remember the name of the representative who is it First Nation person very very effective speaker very very effective speaker I got photos of him he can't show you now he or she she she was a lean she was a lean she was a lean Gao Jin Su Mei is that she is very impressive I know she is very impressive Thank you that was really really interesting I am personally very interested in citizen participation and I learned a lot today and I noticed one thing that kind of to me seems a little bit of kind of it was a little bit equivalent in your presentation so you were saying that because Indigenous Indigenous MPs are usually seen by other MPs as just representing Indigenous issues they often are not heard are not being given a voice on more general issues you were saying cross trade relationships and things like that but on the other hand you were saying they also as legislators don't really care about anything other than Indigenous affairs so my question is is there a demand amongst Indigenous legislators to if they could branch out into more general policy or do they really are they really not interested in it at all? For example from the same party for KMD or DPP they have ordinary hard legislators, hard MPs and Indigenous MPs for Indigenous MPs what do they care about first of all they want to sustain they want to help they want to be really like that they want to be really like that so who is your constituency and if your people your supporters your potential supporters they don't care about that so why you care about other issues and also when Indigenous people I do some interview with this Indigenous MP they say we have so many things to do we have to focus on Indigenous interests because in the past in the past 100 years Indigenous was home there's a lot of things we need to do we should focus on this so one is the on one hand your party don't care about this and you also want to you also care about your own political career on the other hand it's too many things to do too many things you need to talk about for example for education education of course we can talk about general education but do you know I have a joke Indigenous children in the primary school and they take an exam so the song is it's rise from the sea and goes down to another sea to the west and the Indigenous children the Indigenous students say no the song was rise from the sea but the virgin into the mountain that is actually what they daily see they see this everyday they see this everyday they see this everyday but the teachers say no you get the wrong answer you get the wrong answer we use the hard education system we put in the hard education system only this people and of course they have the last educational achievement than us so a lot just like you just mentioned the Jewish army they tried they worked very hard they wanted to change this kind of educational system they want to have their own Indigenous educational system but unfortunately our ministry ministry of education they refuse to do so part of reason is now we have council of Indigenous people so we have council of Indigenous people and we also have ministry of education so who is going to look after who is going the Indigenous education is under whose jurisdiction everyone is okay the money the budget I want to get the budget but I don't want to care about this part this is the main problem but for the council of Indigenous people we propose okay education no budget goes to council of Indigenous people and they say no they refuse to take this budget because they say we are not able to take care to take to take care of this part they don't have enough personnel they don't have enough mental to take care of this part okay thank you doctor I have to very short question in your study do you cover an issue about like Taiwan they ignore by election is there will be direct factor to influence their voting voting intention another question is, I was wondering and very curious about the indigenous system, this party system, what is the original intention of Taiwan's government to build this system because there still has many issues that have not resolved. In 2008, we have the electoral reform, and it used to be for ordinary people, we also adopted the same, we also implemented the same electoral system, it's SNDP, but in 2008 we changed it. But why didn't these people, in digital elections, we don't change it? Because at that moment, let the MPs, they don't want to change. Once we have the, now the indigenous constituency, the matter you are a mountain or a plain, the entire island, the entire island is your constitution, geography, geography of your constitution. But if you see that, if you see that, you can see, we have a natural constitution division, north part, central part and south part. But who is the strongest opponent? Who opposed, who opposed at least the new electoral system? It's basically, we just mentioned Jibas Ali, because her supporters spread all over another Taiwan. So she opposed, she opposed that, but the community would like to cooperate. Community need Jibas Ali's vote, DPP also want. So they just delay, they just postpone this proposal and they don't touch it. They don't touch it. So this is not because we don't want to have a new electoral system. That is because of some... So it's basically just political interest then? Yeah, it's political interest. Okay, on that note then, I think we can continue our discussion over some wine. So let's thank Professor Baol one more time and look forward to the chapter.