 Good afternoon and thank you for joining us for another episode of Kondo Insider and today we're going to be talking about the fire safety ordinance and I have you know two fire chiefs with us to talk about it. This is the ordinance 1814 of the fire safety ordinance and with me today my guests are assistant fire chief Socrates Batacos and battalion chief Wayne Matsuda. Hi guys. Hi everyone. Hi Jay. Hi thanks for joining me on this show. Hi everyone. And you know the reason for the show is chief Wayne and I a couple of weeks ago I think we started talking as I was getting these phone calls about deadlines under the fire safety ordinance and before we start on our questions and whatnot I'm just going to give a brief background for the people who don't know what the ordinance is all about and please jump in and correct me if I leave out some information but 1814 was passed on May 3rd 2018 and what it did is it basically said that all high-rise buildings in Honolulu in Oahu had to install the fire sprinklers throughout unless the building was exempt or it got a passing score in a life safety evaluation and the buildings are exempt if they're under 10 stories or have open exterior quarters and all buildings even though exempt have to pass a life safety evaluation and the life safety evaluation is an inspection that's done by licensed professionals and they basically look at 17 items and they score these 17 items and the whole purpose of a life safety evaluation is to have someone have a licensed professional engineer and architect go through the building and make sure that certain components of the building are in good condition and if not to flag them and to let the buildings know that they need to do certain repairs. And and so you know the whole thing the reason why I called Chief Matuda was you know somebody called me and said you know is there a deadline when we have to get these life safety evaluations done and you know when we pass the bill I mean three years sounds like a long time but they brought to my attention you know if it's three years the three years is up next year we have less than 12 months right Chief and yeah 2021 yes right and I think my first question to you is what if you don't finish your LSE is a fire department going to give extensions and your answer was no can you explain that. Thanks thanks Jane and Chief Sock you can jump in anytime you want to as well. The life safety evaluation committing to that basically gives the building owners building tenants management a good idea of where they are as far as what compliance issues they need to address so without getting a good idea of what you need to go and fix it may be something as small as installing smoke alarms in the units or something extensive as upgrading your alarm system it's case by case but the sooner you get this accomplished the sooner you'll know what course you need to take how you're going to budget for the repairs or the compliance issues so the deadline we feel strongly about keeping to so the buildings at that point will have more time to go ahead and plan to accommodate these repairs for the compliance issues yeah. Yeah and in that same conversation you gave me some good news is that of the 350 some buildings in Honolulu or in Oahu over about half have already completed their LSEs right. Well thanks Jane and because we we messed making it I'll admit that that's something that the city could have done a better job with we could have made it mandatory for the design professionals to submit them to the HJ authorities authority having jurisdiction which is the HFD in this case then we'd have a better idea of how many have been contracted for or completed past field but we didn't so we're considering amendment with Council Member Fouca Naga staff in the city as well to see if we can go ahead and amend 1914 or 1914 it's current incarnation and go ahead and make that mandatory for the design professionals to send out send the completed LSEs to the HJ which is us. But right now you have a pretty good idea that at least half of the buildings have completed. That would be about there Jane about there because the ones that are sending them to us are doing so because we've had existing relationships with engineering firms and we asked them as a favor can you send us so we can report to the city how well we're doing with this ordinance so a good destination would be close to half so we're on track yeah and you know just just you know just to be sure you know what when we were after we talked I went on your website the fire department website and the list of buildings that have to comply with the ordinance are is there right so if anybody's listening or watching this and they want to know if they they have to to comply with this they can go on your website and even me who's not real come you know good at these you know internet searches I was able to get it in less than a minute and I got the list and yes it is it's still it's there with the list of all the buildings that have to come by with the statute um so um and Jane not only that but um chief Masuda staff had contacted every building if they had not gotten a hold of the fire department and sent a letter that they intended to comply so they have talked to everybody at least once already okay and and so so that part of those ordinance has that been complied with has everybody sent in the notices that have complied that they were they they are willing to comply have you or is that something that's still pending I think last time I checked our tracking records Jane is just about everybody's um um submitted that letter um stating that they're they intend to comply with the ordinance yeah okay you know one question I get from a whole lot of people and I don't know if you guys can answer this is there a list of buildings somewhere that other buildings can look at and find out who has who has uh done their LSE and gotten the passing score and you may wonder why is because those buildings would then be contacting them and say how do you guys do that or what did you do or you know you know just networking and because there's a lot of uncertainty out there and um so they've asked me well is there a list of you know where we can find out if the names of the buildings who have passed their LSE but you know we've gotten a passing score you want to get it to the chief or shall I you go ahead thanks Jane there's um if they if they come and ask us we can refer them to um property manager building managers who have um contracted and executed their LSEs and to see what and it's a case by case business uh assessment because all these buildings are are much different Jane they're tall and they're narrow or they're not as tall and they're wider some are older than the other so um some it'd be hard to gauge one against the other because they're so individual yeah these buildings so if they ask us I'll go ahead and point them to a building that's accomplished theirs and go see how they got theirs done pass the area can you can you give our listeners your phone number where they can contact you sure seven two three seven one five one again by email Jane if they could W. Masuda M.A.S.U.D.A. and hollowlulu.gov happy to help okay thank you chief in fact you know every time I I meet with groups and I talk I tell them chief Masuda says I can give out his email address and phone number and I do so hopefully you know the work gets out okay let me ask you another question do buildings less than 10 percent 10 10 stories do they have to pass their LSE I mean they're exempt from putting in fire sprinklers but do they still have to do a life safety evaluation and get a passing score okay thanks um existing high-rise residential buildings by definition and siting on the LSE itself is any building that has um occupiable floors 75 feet above the highest grade of fire department access so that's the definition of a high-rise and some buildings are right there in a gray area Jane eight nine floors and depends on again the makeup of the building and the surrounding streets maybe and you know nine stories you can be exempt and ten stories you could still have to accomplish the LSE so what you know that list that you've pointed to that's available for the public to see that lists all the buildings that's kind of a moving target Jane because we still we're still getting um reports from engineers documenting that this building of that building does not meet the high-rise definition yeah they're not at 75 feet I've had one 72 feet some odd inches and um like I've mentioned before 72 feet to 75 the risk is still there but we've had to have a cutoff point so we're that's the definition we're sticking to so 75 above the highest grade with occupied occupiable floors I'm sorry okay um LSE right yeah okay you know you you've been talking to the um the contractor so what is it costing the buildings I mean do you have like a a per unit cost I mean because I keep getting questions how much is it gonna cost us to do an LSE when you give our visitors an idea of what it's going to cost them um as always Jane you know we're telling everybody to go ahead and get more than one proposal one quote and shop around to see um you know the best value for your for your dollar and you explained earlier the dollars are hard to get at this point um even in spite of the pandemic but it's been reported to us on 35 dollars to 50 dollars per unit is probably a reasonable rate yeah and another question that keeps I keep asking if they you want to do an LSE how do you find out what licensed professionals to contact I mean I said you know there's probably you know the building uh management uh they they have ads I've seen the ads for for you know licensed professionals doing the life safety evaluations but you know the question is what if you don't want to use them is there like a list of licensed contractors that they can you know contact and I told them that they should go to the building expo that they have at you know the Neoplay cell center because they have all those I know when I walked through I saw all these people you know who were saying you know they had the little placards that said that they do the life safety evaluations um thanks Jane they uh we can't of course as as a government agency endorse one over the next we've had a number of informational sessions with design professionals to exchange ideas and basically to make sure or try to make sure that everybody's um seeing things from the same set of eyes so um if they they have my phone number now and my email address I'll be glad to share that with anyone who asks okay you know the the the life safety evaluations as as I indicated before there's 17 items that get you know that have to be inspected based on your conversation with the licensed professional is there like is there any of these 17 items that kind of stand out in your mind as you know seeming to be you know the one that a lot of buildings are having issues with I think it's the chief hi Jane um really there's several things but first there's not having a sprinkler system a fire sprinkler system in your building because that gets you a lot of points and then then it's not having an alarm system that that works per the the code after that it might be non-compliant doors that don't have closers other fire code violations and uh and sometimes vertical openings and um or various combinations of of the above that's that's what we've been seeing so far okay you know let's talk about vertical openings because that seems to be I mean and I have gotten two calls from two buildings with vertical openings and one was a 13 story building and I think I spoke to uh chief Masuda about this several weeks ago and I guess the fix that came in was something in the nature it came at the four to five hundred thousand dollars and I told them well you know you have to go out and talk to other contractors but what the fix was that they had to put some kind of a flooring on each one of the 12 levels including the ground floor and that to me that seems like overkill right because when you get you know in other words if you have these vertical openings and it affects every floor I mean and you're just trying to stop the spread isn't there a way that you can do something with maybe every other floor every three floors instead of making putting the barrier at every floor you know when it's when you're not talking about a 30 or 40 story building you're talking about a 13 story building but I told them that they needed to go out and and and try to talk to other contractors to come up you know with with solutions but I mean is this something that you know the fire department would consider Jane I think you are correct to tell them to go seek other contractors that are some other licensed design professionals that might offer some different methodologies but we we'd be stepping out into a world of a licensed architect or engineer who can assure that that would meet the code and I don't think that's our expertise really the buildings should have had those vertical openings closed from the time they were built but I'm told that some of the buildings are over and back then they didn't have these requirements and that's what the problem seems to be and then you know some things that they could do if they chose to put fire sprinklers of course then that would solve their their problem and like chief Wayne was saying earlier each building's got a unique set of circumstances and they'll have to find out how to best address their safety as as best as they can okay you know why don't we take a one-minute break and when we come back I want to talk about deadlines because there are other deadlines other than this one year right for the to complete your LSE so when we come back we're going to be talking about other deadlines and how associations can meet those challenges raised by those other deadlines so let's take a one-minute break aloha i'm kisha king host of crossroads in learning on think tech hawaii on crossroads in learning our guests and I discuss all aspects of education here in hawaii and throughout the country you can join us for stimulating conversations to enrich and liven and educate we are streamed live on think tech bi-weekly at 4 p.m. on monday's thanks so much for watching our show we look forward to seeing you then aloha and thank you for for for staying with us and I've got as my guests today uh fire assistant fire chief of sacrates vittacos and battalion chief when masuda and the question now chief we talked about the deadline for for completing the lse's but there's another deadline in fact there's two deadlines after that but the next deadline is is is the one I get questions about there's another deadline after uh may 3 2021 it's the deadline where you have to comply with the lse right when is that deadline and that's um may 3 2024 which is the six years so you get these um repairs or compliance issues addressed and I think what you're headed what we're headed towards is whether or not um that's a hard and fast deadline again we're pointing back to the initial deadline of getting the lse accomplished jane i like to uh i liken that to going to to the doctor to get your physical you're not going to really know what's wrong with you until you go see the doctor and get get a good assessment and the sooner everybody gets their assessments done that the first deadline uh 2021 then we'll know uh what we need to address and these deadlines um we I can't speak for the city jane but I'm okay and I think chief sacul agree that on a case-by-case basis if the building show good faith efforts towards um meeting compliance um then of course we'll address these and probably allow more time depends on what's what's at stake if it's a fire alarm system very costly to upgrade that yes and of course allow more time to get that accomplished but provided the buildings provide good faith efforts a quote pull a permit something of that nature yeah okay let me give you an example let's say okay you know just just to summarize this you know the the deadline for the lse the life safety evaluation is next year which is less than 12 months away so the people who are listening which and you know you you just can't go out and and and and make a phone call and make an appointment so you know you you need to start addressing it now start looking for contractors talking to them has them come out and and meet with your board and and you know it takes some time for these people to do the the inspection and so you need to do this and like chief masuda says the life safety evaluation tells you what you have to do and if you get a passing score that's wonderful you don't have to do anything but most buildings probably won't get a passing score and maybe you might have to do some small things like because i had one building call me and say that one thing they didn't get a passing score because they didn't have smoke detectors in the bedrooms not all the units had smoke detectors in the bedroom but they had a vertical opening situation and they had to upgrade their fire alarm system okay so this is a so the the the the smoke detectors in every unit that's an easy cheap fix okay and so the association should they can do that in less than three years the fire alarm system i mean they got an estimate of maybe 800 to 900 thousand and most buildings don't have that in their reserves right now right and so and then there's a vertical opening then and they need to go out and you know get a proposal or you know several proposals to see what that's going to cost so here you have chief a building that has to put in a fire alarm system and the vertical openings the fire alarm system is going to cost them almost a million dollars and they got three years to comply and so they come to you and say chief we need an extension what do what do they have to show for purposes of good faith that would allow the fire department to give them an extension in that situation you want this one chief well i mean to take this one chief i'll start Jane usually when people seek an extension they have at least gotten bids and or hired a contractor and started the permitting process so by this time they should know what their problem is they should have explored how much it costs um they should start budgeting for it and they should start seeking a contractor as well as starting part of the job and they should submit all this in writing eddie that would allow the fire department to examine them on a case by case space this is effective mind you chief wane and his staff will issue a fire code violation and that will still be happening the company would look at so i advise all the listeners out do your best to start the work that uh that you need to do okay and you know uh right now we're going through this covet emergency and as i was talking to you before the show started i mean last year with my building i mean we have an older building so our repairs are you know a little bit expensive and so we were going to start on the plan to to raise our maintenance fees nine percent which we did for 2020 and we were going to do nine and 10 percent on a going forward basis because we knew we'd have to do something for the fire safety and now with covet and the shutdown and the economy not even opening up yet i mean i know with my building we sat down with our reserve study experts specialists and told them we got to make an adjustment for 2021 because we don't know what the economic circumstances of the owners in our building whether or not they can even afford you know to do it we're going to have to go backwards and maybe do maybe five or six percent we can't do the nine percent because i'm you know i'm kind i'm concerned that you know our owners won't be able to do it and this was unforeseen when when you and i and we're sitting in the task force and come you know discussing the ordinance and you know and nobody thought that there'd be a pandemic you know that would shut down the state and you know put a whole lot of people out of work and so you know that's a circumstance that is going to affect a whole a whole lot of building some worse than others and and so 2021 is going to be you know a big uncertainty as to whether or not these buildings are going to have the economic resources to even you know work toward compliance and that's that that you know is the fire department going to take that into consideration when people ask for an extension if they do so jane so the pandemic started a few months ago and i think the answer is that uh the buildings should have started to do something and even at that time when we started the conversation we knew it would be challenging for many of the aoaos because that aging buildings with alarm systems that were very old that weren't sprinkled and had sometimes had other problems and we see it as something that needs to be worked towards not ignore not ignored and try to make some some efforts to do something and we're going to understand that there's uh economic circumstances and we'll review each case on a case by case basis and to see if there's been some good effort made and what we can all do is uh as the government to help okay well you know that's good to know but you know chief what happens to what happens you know you and and chief masuda you might retire next year and then and then i mean is there going to be some kind of institutional memory uh as to you know what was said in the task force at the city council meetings and even now with you and me and chief masuda talking about you know good faith efforts by the association and you know i mean how how how are the buildings going to know that that that uh if they do these things that the fire fire department might give them an extension i'll get this in chief um part of our responsibilities jane as we get closer to whenever we consider on retirement is to leave um leave the the position and basically in my case leave the position um in a good place that means um a continuity plan um to sustain whatever efforts we've had so far and make sure the next person up can it can um accomplish the same good work that we've been doing so everybody in the fire department is responsible to know the job um i think of the person above him in rank and also the one below so i'm doing i'm doing my best i can to make sure that the captains below me when they do eventually take over my position understand what we're trying to accomplish as a city first as a department well bureau sorry and it's a department as a city so we all we have support supporting people who are aware of what's going on currently and they have they've had their hands in this from the beginning as well and they know what we're trying to accomplish as a as a bureau a department and as a city so i'm not afraid of that happening at all okay well you know we reached the end of the uh our uh time here thanks for joining me and i'm sure that this is not going to be the end of the conversation and we and and now that chief wean's uh phone number and email address have been you know further uh given to the public uh hopefully people will now have a resource if they have questions about enforcement of this ordinance so thank you guys for for joining us and thank you for uh for the listeners for joining the conversation and uh and uh listening to condo insiders thank you very much thank you thanks guys thank you very much