 I know that you have been talked to already by the Secretary, by the President, and so I didn't want to make that a season-plough ground-goal over again. I'm sure they've emphasized how important we feel this whole thing is. And I just thought I would mention the other day President Pannon was here. And again, he is totally behind. The idea that we have proposed with the Contadora that they want to emphasize the necessity of the Sandinista government actually negotiating with their own people, those we call the Contras, and they're trying to get back to what were the original revolutionary goals. And we feel that this is, by the way, these letters are reiterating some things that we said to the Senate that you would like to have also refute some of the accusations that have been made in what is in our mind. But the, it's just, there's no question in our minds anymore and I think all the heavens is incontrovertible that we have a totalitarian communist state as far as that government is concerned. The people of Nicaragua have not bought that. There's increasing unhappiness, increasing desertions from their military going over to the Contras. And we just feel there's no way that we cannot go forward with this help to them, which as you've been told is non-lethal. And we think that this particular amendment would be gutted by some of the others that have been proposed and that this amendment will keep the Democratic forces there with some hope that they can get pluralistic government, the Democratic government there. So I think it's about time that we, if you already opened it to discussion. So there, there are an anxious to ask your question. Let's go. Mr. President, thank you very much. I would like to take this opportunity, first of all, to thank you, Mr. McFarland, for the close support in working on this amendment. There are some individuals here, Mr. President, who have been very supportive in this process that opposed the original Michael amendment but believed wholeheartedly that the stand that you've taken and supported this amendment and the positions that you've restated in your letter will go a long way to make this truly a bipartisan amendment and a policy as to make a argument. And if I could, Mr. President, I just wanted to point to a couple of people here that were very involved. Mr. Richardson, who's chairman of Hispanic Caucus from New Mexico, one that had raised a number of concerns that, I think, have been addressed and again, I appreciate that effort. I know Mr. Slattery, Mr. Barton, Mr. Stallings, Mr. Watkins, Mr. Andrews, all of Mr. Bustamante, Mr. Robinson, I think, left Larry's own corner, as usual. But they have raised a number of concerns with the original policy that I think that we've been able to address and again, I believe that your statements in this letter, again, the reaffirmation of the support for the Democratic Center, the truly small-league Democrats in Central America who want a policy of reconciliation within Nicaragua is going to make this policy sellable to the American public. And I think in the past it hasn't been, but I think the statements you make today clearly put us on the high ground as to Central America and Nicaragua, and I appreciate your support. All right. Let me just tell you one little incident I'm going to take, where it comes up, and thank you very much. A couple of years ago, at least, when the military was really pouring in there from the Soviet bloc and the tanks and all of that, there was a ship and we really had a tech, you know, some of them were coming through the canal to unload on the Pacific side, and they go through the canal. We got a little lady. We know us on that ship. So there was one that had those military helicopters, which they were using, and they denied, we made it public, that this was what was coming, the ship from the Soviet Union with the helicopters. Oh, they denied it. They said it was farm equipment that was coming in. We were a little worried because we knew what was there. You know, have they done something overboard for how to get the propaganda message, or have they ducked in some place and unloaded this stuff, and particularly when they then announced publicly that they would have the international press on the docks to watch that ship unload, and we thought they'd done something. So the ship was there, and the ship unloaded, and the international press on the dock consisted totally of the Cuban press. It was the international press. So then we knew who we were able, as you know, to find out. They don't load the helicopters, and they've since been in action. Mr. President, I think Ray's the key issue here that the Secretary responded to, partially. If those countries surrounded Nicaragua, if they knew that they had support for the United States Congress, because they know they had administrations, but if they knew they had support for the United States Congress, would the attitude be different? The attitude of those countries would be different in the context of the press and Ray's response, where they'd be more willing to come forward and say, yes, we need your support. I believe, yes. I think this is one of the things they've been in the way we've gone back and forth. They're unsure. They're scared to death of Nicaragua. They know that's the threat to them. And they're hesitant about how far they can go without finding themselves in the next meeting. And they may... Well, when the President of Honduras was here just recently, that was very much a part of our discussion there. And I assure you, as far as we were concerned, they knew that we could be counted on. They know also enough about our government to know that there are limitations on how the President could do it. Mr. President, Jim Snyder has began. I have some real concerns about how you logistically plan to deliver this humanitarian assistance to Congress. Can you give us assurances that we're not going to get involved in using military aircraft, U.S. military aircraft to deliver this humanitarian assistance within Nicaragua? What are your plans to actually logistically deliver the aid to the Congress? Well, I think most of the aid will be delivered, at least roughly, I think, now, yes, on the Honduras side of the border. But it's not your personal plans for military aircraft to get people in there. Absolutely flat. There will be no U.S. military aircraft delivering supplies inside Nicaragua. It's absolutely not anybody's plan or idea. Mr. Secretary, can we construe from that also that there will not be any U.S. aircraft, period, that are owned by the United States government delivering this assistance inside the border of Nicaragua? Absolutely. Yes. Mr. Secretary, what do you consider the minimum result of gains that you would have to see from this effort before you would not ask for military aid in future? Well, some progress that they legitimately were discussing in a peaceful way. In other words, remember, March 1st, it was the Congress who offered to lay down their arms and enter into peaceful negotiations. Now, they're one-time partners of the revolution and thought they were fighting for the democratic revolution. And it was the Sandinista guns that refused to negotiate with them. And the condadora, as I was assured in the day yesterday by the president of the Panama, the condadora group, they wanted these negotiations to open up. And our suggestion in our plan was that involved the church as kind of the mediator that everyone would be able to trust in overseeing that this is a fair effort at negotiations. And we feel once they get into that, then it's going to be very easy to determine whether there is a legitimate effort being made to resolve this and who is responsible for not making it legitimate. Negotiations began and you would not ask the military to know what we said was in the original plan, peace plan. We did want to stick. And incidentally, President of the Panama used that term. He believes in the carrot. And he thinks this is the carrot that we're holding out. But he says, to make carrot work, you've got to have a stick nap over your someplace that says, you know, if nothing happens they just stay with their present position and maybe just go through the motions of negotiation and nothing happens and it still ends up another Cuba common estate that there should be some threat. Well, our idea of the threat was that you would resume military aid to the Contras because the Contras will be in the position of having laid down their arms and a total cease-fire. Laurel and Georgia, do you have a feeling about how South American countries feel the odds for conflict? Yes, I do because early on I made a trip down there several times and this is one of the reasons why I squirm every time I hear these accusations that I've got an idea in the back of my mind of the military action there. Virtually every hit of state in the Latin American countries with the memories and their people can't get political with them. They know that their people have that memory of the big colossus of the north back in the old nutty gunboat days and the gunboat diplomacy. And all of them say one thing, we can't do it without your help. We need your weapons. We need the training that you can give our people. We need the resources that you can provide. We don't want your men. We'll provide the manpower. They don't want Americans again, whatever reason, coming in there and restoring that old image. And in many of them it's kind of pretty evident that what they're talking about is they would understand if it had to happen as a leader. They could never sell it to their people. So I've said to all of our people in the very first I'm reluctant to get out and shout this around too much because I don't think it hurts if somebody like the Sandinista government worries about whether we might or not do it. I like to see them lose sleep but the truth of the matter is there's no way that we could have an ally or friend left in Latin America if we started landing the Marines on the beach. President, can we for about 90 days or 120 days watch the business legislation and get some type of report on the leadership of Latin America for their current supporters to some degree out in Ohio to some degree and also if we can program some leadership within the contri-area for the church and the unions in the business area can identify some type of leadership to take over the contra-operation against the Sandinista so that we can have some idea as to who are the leaders within this area or who is the leader that's a duande in a son-in-law. Well, some of these men aren't like Revelle, they're crews men who were part of the revolution and they're basically the leaders now on the left as the contri-s. One of the things that's difficult to do unless there's some sign of hope when you have a totalitarian government of the Sandinista town what person there civilian people, business people and so forth how far can they go in standing up and apparently taking the sides of democracy with the knowledge that the whole thing could fall apart and then they'd have to get out of the country if the Sandinistas were still the government. What if the Vida what if the Vida they just kicked them out of the country? That's right. In Texas, one of the one of the arguments against your policy I think has been in the House that the Contra's goal is to overthrow the government in Nicaragua while the administration's goal may well be for a negotiated settlement and I wonder hypothetically, assuming that the administration gets its way that the Contra army is built up to 20,000 to 30,000 fighting men that we continue with a negotiated settlement with the government of Nicaragua and are successful and you reach the point where you feel that it's time to settle the case with Nicaragua they have acceded to our demands for the most part are you confident that the Contra's will participate in that settlement are we creating a situation where we're in danger that these Contras by the time we built a 30,000 man fighting army will not be willing to lay down their arms but simply to pursue their goal of a complete overthrow of the government No, I think the very fact that they have taken the lead repeatedly and the last time was March 1st and now with the acceptance of our proposal based on that the fact that they have been the ones that said we'll lay down our arms have let us let us come in and negotiate with you as fellow revolutionaries and what kind of government that we want did you want to say something about it? The President's right, it's useful just recently in the past week or so the unified Nicaraguan opposition Cruz and Company Calero have said publicly the only way that power ought to change in Nicaragua is through an elective process What did they hope for? Did you tell them about your experience what the leaders don't have in the targets? I don't know if that's a good word but here's something that I don't know because there's quite a disinformation campaign because of the Contras and so forth about what they are but it was down there talking to them and he said militarily he said don't come you don't hit any of the strategic targets you know you could really cripple the economy and so forth there the Sandinista government you hit the power plants the same as the communist guerrillas are doing in El Salvador and the leaders of these Contras said no they said that would hurt the people and we're of the people so they'll fight a military opponent but they won't attack these strategic targets that like in El Salvador what's happened to the economy when the power plants go out and they just have to close down and all of this transportation, the infrastructure and the leaders of the Contras they probably said no sir because that might hurt the government but it would also be hurting the people Mr. President I've been loud in my opposition to you when I thought you were wrong I can think of Lebanon but I've been equally loud in my praise of you when I think you're right and I think you're right on this issue I've been with you for some time two points come to my mind and looking over this group today first of all it is a bipartisan effort on the House floor 34 weeks ago we got 46 Democrats I think I'm right to stand up for the Michael amendment we got 40 Democrats to go with military assistance which was our first vote on the House floor so be reminded I know you are often but I'd like to take this chance to remind you it has been bipartisan and we all make sure it ends that way oh buddy I thank you yes this is something that has to be said over and over again we've got a very proud history in this country and sometimes we tend to forget it in our own partisan rivalries but the thing that's characterized this nation is it's like the family fight you can have a family fight but if your neighbor gets into it it comes together and at the water's edge there are no parties where we're Americans well I'm glad to hear you say that in this room and I'd like you to say it to America every chance you get to point number two and I'll leave you alone for the day one of the strongest affirmations of what you're trying to do in my personal experience has been a conversation with President Jose of El Salvador he was in town not too many weeks past he knows the carrot and the steak operation he knows the effect in his own country of what the Nicaraguans are trying to do to him in terms of command and control and training the rebels that he's fighting and I just believe that he supports you 100% in what you're trying to do I think it's a strong point we're going to make it on the House floor this week but I'd like you to make it every chance you get to Mr. President as you know it's a difficult hope for many of us and when we confront our church leaders they continually criticize our efforts on behalf of the Congress and the Secretary reviewed for some of the negative effects of the last vote I'm wondering if you could just reemphasize for some of the positive effects of what we've been doing in the past and what we expect to happen out of our continued support for the Congress I think first of all if you look at one of these last few years that we've had in Latin America generally the turn toward democracy and 90% of people there now live under democracy or in countries that are moving toward it and this is what we call the Jackson plan came right from and that bipartisan commission went down there and came back recommending the greatest help then if it wasn't for this cancer sitting there Nicaragua a plan where the United States for the first time could really set up a program of helping them build the infrastructure the economy that they need to eliminate that society that is totally poverty or totally rich and build an economy where their standard of living can come up by their own efforts and this I heard just the other day from the President he described this to me as it was an idea that was selling us and it's been on our idea all along we've tried a lot of things in the past but the trick that I made the first year I was here to Central America and to South America too and to tell all of them we know there have been efforts in the past well intentioned efforts in the process of the North coming down the same here's what we're going to do and I went down and said look we want to hear your ideas what do you think we should do we're all neighbors some was a unique situation in the whole history of the world from the tip of of the North Pole we all have the same heritage of coming here and years to these two continents with the bridge in between we all basically worship the same God granted we speak about basically three different languages Brazil and Portuguese the others with Spanish and English but we have so much in common that we ought to be able to make this whole 650 million people in these continents such neighbors that we can have borders between all of us like the border between us and Canada and Mexico where we don't have to have armed guards and so forth and it's a I just read the other day and let me say one thing about it theatrical troupe from Moscow came here to put on shows and they started in Canada some shows in Canada then were sent down here and one of them describing the when they got to the border from the Montreal to the United States they didn't have to stop or show any papers or do anything and there weren't any guards or gates or anything else they didn't even know when they had left Canada and were now in the United States and they were all awestruck by this well this averages and so forth and say well 7.2% the employment average or whatever they go by that's a little bit like the fellow that drowned trying to wait across the river even though it isn't the average that there are pockets in the country that have particular problems but again the overall economy is concerned is it going to be helped if we remain rich here with all our problems but rich here surrounded by these other hundreds of millions of people in this economy in poverty or isn't there going to be a better economy for all of us if we are all able to trade with each other and raise our standards of living those people down there their standard of living is raised they're not going to be customers for things in their own country they're going to be customers for things in ours everybody is going to benefit I share that the third district of Oklahoma can raise their income it's good for America too but the doubt is that they've got the raising the standard there and that that can be helped by a more prosperous world with a higher standard of living worldwide and that's why this Jackson plan is not one aimed anymore it's just doling out you know I've had a feeling that a lot of our foremen I've been as great a lover as anyone back over the years I'm on the mashed potato circuit in the Asian area he'd been lieutenant colonel when he became head of the government he left office with 80 million dollars now you don't save 80 million dollars out of a lieutenant colonel's cell but you know that was for where I remember we provided saunas for a country that didn't have any harvest and we'd do another one a miles of paved roads and you know but if we could go in stimulate an economy and create customers by doing that as well as being customers I just wanted to respond to Ben's question I think that Ben may be able to shed some light on it one of the vocal opponents of this policy has been in the churches and many of us share possibly from the church groups within our state the fact that Ben is doing inside Nicaragua that there's a trist season and so forth I believe by your statements in the letter in your support of the improvement of human rights by the resistance forces it's going to go a long way to respond to the concerns that the church has had and bud can you give a chance and light as to what the resistance democratic resistance is going to be announcing in the next few days as to some of their policies I know was leaked in the New York Times last week that they were going to come out and issue a proclamation like a declaration of independence or a bill of rights asserting political institutions over men that they are a political body that they are going to have rule of law as opposed to just armed resistance and we have some inkling as to what information you have as to whether or not they're going to announce this and you will see the entire community of the unarmed people who's leadership and other civilians bring together the hearty people from the south and the fellow and the FDN people of north and reaffirm what they have said earlier about number one that the government must only change canonly through a peaceful electoral process that they condemn human rights violations and will take action to prohibit them in their own ranks and once more ask for the church to foster this dialogue with the government in the top position. May I just say I'm going to take your question here also on this, I recognize that there are many well-meaning people in our religious groups but there are also great divisions with them and the well-meaning people are those that want a peaceful settlement of anything and properly so they don't believe in killing back and forth but we've got to recognize that probably one of the best and most sophisticated disinformation networks in the world is the network named by the communist bloc that well, I can tell you just one example of it there was only a couple of years ago that they planted a story in a paper and the professor showed a letter that I'd written to the king of Spain it was a letter that was very harmful to me it was very harmful to him I never wrote such a letter, he never got such a letter and finally that one was exposed and they had to admit it was a phony but they do things like that and one day there was a story about a bishop, a catholic bishop who was leading a couple of hundred refugees out of Nicaragua toward the Honduran border and they were attacked for the conference and he was trying to save these people well then he came back, he's a bishop from Iowa I called him on the phone and I told him this story which had been published about this and he said no he said we were attacked by the Sandinista army, the military he said the conference helped save us but this is the kind of thing that they can just shamelessly claim because I say to other people they don't understand who the bad guys and the good guys are Mr. President the hardest thing for any politician is to admit that one has made a mistake and I want to tell you I voted for Barnes Hamilton and I made a mistake but I want you to understand I'm going to support the Michael amendment I tend to go to the floor and go against my party because I think you're right but I want you to know like buddy echo it's tough on many of us in Low Rock, Arkansas I've got my bishop of the Methodist Church I've got the peaceniks marching on my office it's politically expedient for me to vote against you because I've got a colleague in Arkansas that echoes the other side every day and I haven't been around here long enough to counter some of that but my point is I wish that if you win or if you lose please don't just say well the Democrats did again and there are some Democrats that are going to help you but the point I want to make is all I hear from some of the liberals in Congress is well go on over there they're going to come in whip your tail next election and I guess the point I'm trying to make is buddy Martin will come out and say what he thinks I think you ought to back off of us good Democrats once more I'm going to say something for you buddy don't you think I'm a little frustrated I go out there and make a speech and then I tune on the TV news that night and I see a shot about 20 seconds of me approaching the podium and then I see about 10 seconds of me saying something that innocuous not important at all while the voice of Sam Donaldson tells the people what he wants to say and so you don't know how many times I've said this and talked about this thing and the bipartisan approach is over but only the people in the audience know about it it never gets any place well I'm going to do like try to do my part Mr. Michael if you'll give me some time I think you'll be proud of my speech but I just wanted you to know if we want something once we call over and get something for ourselves maybe I shouldn't say this yesterday I shook the hands of 150 office holders a number of states office holders at the local state level including judges legislators and so forth all of who were democrats who have become republicans be careful the only thing I'm going to add to that is to say that you're absolutely right about some republicans I wish they'd know we were organized like baseball where we could do some trading I'd rather have it I'd rather have it Mr. President I was down here working this problem today and Bahá'u'llah when we move down to everybody and you relate the story that I think would be useful because there's some dog on much a high level of rhetoric what we're probably going to hear up on the hill today about the evil mind of the state of the White House in Missouri states I'm here tomorrow, maybe even Thursday and one time when we were down here you were talking about Ortega and the fact that he stopped in Spain which used to be his real buddy had a great meeting with the prime minister and they did something in public and I think might be helpful for the members here if you told us what happened so that as we begin to listen to this avalanche of rhetoric that they can now about how evil the country is you might relate what the prime minister Spain reacted to when Ortega came back to Moscow Yeah, man Gonzalez as you know he's exactly a socialist although he's moderating and turning more to entrepreneurship in this country but he asked me and I told him in as much detail as I could what our plan was a plan for peaceful negotiations the conference laying down the weapons and he listened very attentively the only comment he made was that his impression had been that that the Sandinista government was on the way to totalitarianism and I seem to say that they achieved which I think they have but that was the only comment he made he didn't dispute or anything well I knew that Ortega was coming to see him on the way back to Moscow and then I found out that you know Ortega had their meeting and then they both appeared before the press press conference and Ortega stood up and pretty soon Ortega was teeing off on me and calling me a Nazi and including the United States also in that and Gonzalez in front of the press just stepped up to the microphone and interrupted Mr. Ortega and he said President Reagan is not a Nazi and the United States saved Europe from Nazism and if they need to do it again the United States under President Reagan will save Europe again from Nazism and I don't know how the hell Ortega got off stage applause