 to Healthy Planet, the show for people who care about their health and the health of our planet on the ThinkTech Live Streaming Network series. I'm your host, Dr. Grace O'Neill. Joining me today in the studio is, or on Zoom, is Darlene Lume, Butterfly Rancher and owner of Sharing the Butterfly Experience. Today we're going to talk about monarch butterflies. So let's get into it. How did you become interested in monarch butterflies? So I had this deck which is above my garage and it was just empty. No one used that space. So I had this epiphany one day to think how I could use that space. And I wondered if I got crown flower would butterflies come? And so one day before Christmas, almost 10 years ago, I went to get some plants out from my friend in Waimanalo. And he wasn't my friend then. He just had advertised. But I bought plants and then I got caterpillars and they ate all of my plants and then they started to disappear and I was wondering where did they all go? And I found out that there were predators eating the caterpillars. So then I invested in habitat and it just snowballed. It's just from a thought of what if. So when you're saying you got habitat, what do you mean by habitat? It's just an enclosure to keep the caterpillar safe. So in the very beginning, I bought a chameleon cage and not realizing that some of the predators can get into the chameleon cage. And so eventually through trial and error, I was able to get screened tents. And that's what I use today to raise all of my caterpillars. And you just have them, they're potted plants on the rooftop or how are you doing it on a rooftop? So the caterpillars, so the butterflies fly in and out of the garden all day. They eat, they mate, they lay eggs. I gather the caterpillars and then I keep them safe in the mesh tents in what was built for me, which is a nursery. It's five feet by six feet by three feet. And it has lights, it has a roof. And all of the tents are in there safe with 19 gauge wire all the way around. Yeah, it's pretty secure. And that's through trial and error, you know, when I've had rodents get in. Wow, rodents. Yes, and they ate the chrysalids and the caterpillars. What kind of other predators will eat the butterflies besides, I can't even believe rodents eat them, that shocks me. Yes, that's what I learned too, because before it used to be just window screen all the way around, but they ate right through that. Some of the other predators is the Bulbul bird. Yeah, so it's a black cardinal with the red under its tail. That bird eats butterflies and caterpillars and is voracious. It is a very smart bird. So it will catch the butterfly midair. Oh my gosh, that's because sometimes I see the butterflies, they're just hanging when the wings first dry and it's trying to dry its wings and it can't use them yet. And I wonder if it can be attacked in the garden and, you know, they won't go near it because I'm there, but I'm wondering if when I go away, it's sweeping in and taking them. So if you look, the caterpillars typically try to find some place safe to hang because they're hanging in the jay for very many hours. Yeah. And while they're there, they're very vulnerable, they can't crawl off. So that's why sometimes if you're not watching them, they'll crawl under a table, under a ledge, under leaves someplace where they can hide. Yeah. So it's good to put them somewhere that's more safe. So I had heard that after, you know, someone told me this was a rumor that after they get to a certain size that they're not appetizing for Bulbuls. But I guess that's not true. They're always appetizing. So if you if you see just wings on the ground, then it probably was eaten by Bulbul because the Bulbul will eat just the abdomen and leave the wings. That's terrible. Yes. It's heartbreaking for people that are racing, they go through all of that work. They release the butterfly and then hair swoops down a Bulbul and steals that butterfly as soon as it's released. Is the Bulbul, is that, I mean, where is that from? Is that a native bird? No, invasive, invasive. So in the late 70s to 80s, it was introduced to the islands. And you can Google that. There's a story about it being brought in by the Audubon Society and how they escaped through a windstorm and then they just thrived. So this bird is very smart. It will jump from branch to branch and look under the leaves. Oh, wow. Yes. Very smart. This is scary. And I heard there's these, actually, there's these wasps that will attack the butterfly and eat the butterfly too. And, you know, I mean, I've seen centipedes go after the butterflies, geckos, is that all? I mean, what other predators are there? So the wasps typically are females and they will be attacking the caterpillars, not the butterflies. Oh, okay. Okay. So they eat the caterpillar and they regurgitate it to their young. That's what they're feeding. They're young. So there are tiny wasps that use the chrysalis for multiplying. There's flies that will use the host. They will lay an egg in the caterpillar and eventually when it becomes a chrysalis, the maggot will crawl off and the chrysalis is dead. Oh, geez. So in nature, less than 10% make it through the whole cycle. So this, but just this February, this last month, we had a huge boom of caterpillars. And I'm attributing it to the number of people that are racing. Interested in them. Yes. Yes. I mean, you know, I will say, like, you know, I don't know if you were talking about with that maggot, but there's, you know, I've been putting these little nets around them. So I saw that these caterpillars, they also, some of them, they come out with the crumpled wings. And that's a special parasite, right? Right. It's called OE. It's got a really long name. And that is, it cripples the butterfly. If you have any of those, you should put them in the freezer to euthanize them and make sure that you disinfect everything, including your hands so that it's not transparent. Oh, geez. And then I saw one, I had one that actually tried to come out of the chrysalis and it couldn't come out. It was stuck for days and then it died. I don't know why that happens. Is there a reason why that happens? Sometimes it's pesticides, but it is, if it's not strong enough, it's not going to be able to come out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, my gosh. So let's talk about the other kinds of butterflies in Hawaii now. That's the monarch. And is that a female or male? Yeah. So what I tell people is think of a peacock and fishes and birds. The males are always more vibrant. They're prettier and the females are very bland. And so when you see a dark bean butterfly, a monarch butterfly, that's probably a female. There are also two hormonal dots on the bottom of the male's wings, but it's easier to spot from a distance if you just look for orange because the monarch males, the male monarchs are much more orange than the female. And I tell the kids it's because they have to attract the females. They have to work it. It's the opposite of humans. Right. Right. So let's go on to the other butterflies now, Max. This is the gulf fertility and tell us about that one. So every butterfly has its own host or food plant. And the food plant for that butterfly is lilycoy leaves. So they don't eat the fruit. They just eat the leaves. Yeah. And isn't it, I see this color here. It's more pinkish, but I was actually trying to grow the lilycoy in my yard. And then, you know, it looks as a caterpillar. It's spiky. And so it attacked my lilycoy and ate every single leaf. I don't even know if the plant is going to survive, but it hadn't even flowered yet. I was so angry. But you know, these, the butterfly, the one that I have, it looks orange and black. Is that a different species of the same thing? Or is it a different kind of butterfly? It's kind of like a monarch mimic. The ones that I'm seeing in my yard now that like came out from, you know, my passion fruit. Okay, there's only one butterfly that we have in the state that uses lilycoy. And so that has to be the same. So on the top side, it's black and orange. On the underside, it is camouflage. And is this an invasive species or is this endemic? It's not endemic. So we only have two butterflies that are endemic. One is the commamia, and the other one is the koa. And the koa is tiny. So I've actually not raised any. The commamia is on the endangered list. So the endangered list, people are talking about putting the monarchs on the endangered list. It is my opinion that is a bad idea. Why is that? Because if you put them on the endangered list, you and I will not be able to raise monarchs. Really? You can't touch them, you can't. Wow. You can't have them. Okay. That's what endangered means. So you cannot, I mean, like the monk seals, you can't approach them, you can't touch them, you you have to just leave them. So my thought is, what if we had, we were a whole bunch of people were able to raise commamia butterflies? How many more butterflies would we have if they were not on the endangered list? So what is their primary source? Don't they eat a specific, like what's their host plant? Mamaki. Mamaki is their host plant. Yeah. So that's, I guess you'd have to buy that. I mean, if you bought that, I guess they would just come to your yard just like the monarchs do. But you're not supposed to be able to touch them or hold them. No, because they're right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So they're interested in the, you're correct because there's so much interest in the monarch butterfly because I was talking to a few colleagues at work and everybody is interested. Everybody's interested in it. Right. Because there's a lot of discussion about monarchs on the mainland and the migration. So in Hawaii, our monarchs do not migrate. There's no reason for them to migrate. We have them all year round. The only reason that they migrate in the mainland is because of the weather. So monarchs actually aren't endemic to Hawaii then? No, they're not. How did they get here? Probably on food plant. So Queen Lillio Kalani loved butterflies and she was gifted a crown flower plant way back when. It's my understanding. That's a crown flower in the picture. Right. And so in the mainland, they call it giant milkweed or colochipus gigantia. And we just call it crown flower because of the flower. It looks like a crown. So that's milkweed. I'm just showing everybody. I'm just talking about the milkweed. Smaller. It's a smaller one than the crown flower. But the picture before, if you can go back to that Max, you said there's a white monarch butterfly and the one that we normally think of. Yes. Right. So the white monarch is a recessive. It has recessive genes. So they're not very common and they're not very strong because it's recessive. I've tried to breed them and I've had success for two generations and then they just peter out. Wow. And I guess if you could show the video now. If you could tell us how can we, after these monarchs, after they come out of their chrysalis, if we want to have them in our yard, what kind of flowers can we grow and how do they, should we feed them when they come out? Does that make them stronger and how can we feed them? If you could show the video, Max. Yeah. So the video will show how the butterflies eat. They have a proboscis that they put into the flowers. And the flower that that butterfly is eating is pentus. It's P-E-N-T-A-S. P-E-N-T-A-S. And that's one of its favorite flowers. I also have lantana. So that is tropical milkweed and silky gold milkweed. And honestly, if the butterflies had a choice, if you put crown flower, silky gold, and tropical milkweed side by side, they will be laying eggs all over the tropical milkweed and the silky gold. That would be their first preference. Yeah. It's just like they completely obliterate that. It's a smaller plant and it's basically all gone. But you know, the crown flower grows bigger. So I guess it has. Right. You'll just see a caterpillar and it's like, oh gosh. So, Darlene, tell us about your business a little bit and what services you provide for people? So I provide butterflies for all kinds of events, weddings, funerals, parties. People can release a butterfly from a basket, a mass release basket, or individual butterflies. And the individuals is what I like the most because it's one thing to watch someone else release butterflies and that's another thing to be able to release your own. How do you get the butterflies to like in the envelope in the first place? Oh, just put them in there. You put them in there and then when they're cool, they sleep. And so that's how we transport them and then when you're ready to release them, then you take them out of the cooler and they wake up within a few minutes. But butterflies are the most friendly. They will stay on your finger. They will fly to flowers, lay, creating lots of very special moments. How do the butterflies mate? Back to back. They're back to back. So and they stay mated for hours. Oh, wow. Yeah. And the males, the males can fly carrying the female. Oh, wow. Yeah. Is the male bigger? Not necessarily. The butterflies are a function of how much they eat when they're caterpillars. So if they become a chrysalis too soon, it'll be a small chrysalis and a small butterfly. So is there a certain time period that, you know, that they would, is it like they're, they're chrysalis, like their caterpillar is this many days and they're chrysalis? I know it's like seven, 14 days or whatever. And then I know the butterflies like three months, like the life span is like a total of three months. Can you go through the life cycle? So from egg to chrysalis, it's about 10 days. From chrysalis to butterfly, it's about 10 days. And in Hawaii, from my experience, the butterflies live, the monarch butterflies anyway, live about three weeks. Oh, wow. Is that just because of the bullbill? My gosh. No, in that three week period of time, they are laying 300, 400 eggs. Oh, wow. Yeah, that's, I didn't know it was only three weeks. I thought they were surviving three months or something. I didn't know. If they're migratory butterflies, they will live longer, but our butterflies are not migratory. Yeah. What's I gonna say? I was wondering, are there any, is there anything besides like the crown flower and the milkweed and we're talking about some other plants? Like what other kinds of flowers is it mostly? I see them going after a lot of things that are growing naturally from the ground. Like I guess people would say they're reeds and everything. And you know, just the things that I would not necessarily even grow in my garden to be pretty, you know, like daisies or sunflowers, which I'm sure everything is probably, will they pretty much pollinate anything? Butterflies? They have a proboscis, a tongue. So they have to be able to put their tongue into a flower to eat. So those are the flowers that they're looking for to get nectar. Yeah. And if you were going to try to feed the butterfly, like would you just use a little honey and water and then put it in a cup and then try to feed the butterfly like that? You can also use sugar and water and put it either on a cotton ball or a q-tip or a cloth. You just have to watch for the ants because the ants want to join the party. That's true. I mean, I see some of them too. It's funny. Like some of them, you know, have them in the net and then some of them will kind of die. It looks like they just, I don't know why they die. They look like normal butterflies, but they'll die when they come out of the chrysalis. I don't know if it's because they didn't get fed soon enough. They were trapped in the net or something like that. So on the first day that the butterfly is born, it won't be hungry. But by the second day, you have to feed them. If they don't eat, by the third day, they're going to be on the bottom of the tent. So I tell people, just release them on the second day. They're stronger on the second day. If you have what they want, they will be back. And, you know, they fly in and out of the garden all day. I tell people, if you're looking for my house, just look up and follow the butterfly. Absolutely. I'm very interested in this Kameha Meha butterfly too. Have you, I guess, I mean, you can't touch them, but you could still maybe get that plant you were talking about. And then maybe you would be able to see them in your yard if you got that plant. So the Kameha Meha butterfly is on exhibit at the zoo. Oh, it is. And I have a butterfly exhibit that's opening July 1st. It runs through August 14th. It's at Pro Ridge. We did this every year. This year, it's going to be on the Makai side. The Kameha Meha butterfly will be there at least two Saturdays, maybe more. Even though it's in danger, it's okay. They have a permit just to, yeah. Wow. So the caterpillars will be there. The Kameha butterfly will be there. The food plant. People will be able to ask all kinds of questions. Usually I have Dr. Wil Haines come and join us, but he's not going to be able to make it this year. So the zoo is actually sending staff. Oh, wow. That's awesome. And who's Dr. Wil Haines, by the way? He started the Pule Lehua project on tracking the Kameha Meha. And he's part of the Department of Land and Natural Resources. And he raised hundreds of Kameha Meha butterflies and released them, trying to increase their population. What's the exhibit called if people want to go to the exhibits? How can they get on the internet? Monarchs and more. Okay. Monarchs and more. But if you just go to sharing the butterfly experience at, no, sharing the butterfly experience dot com. That is my website. And I'm on Instagram and Facebook as well. I really enjoy sharing the butterfly experience. And that's why I named it that. It just the joy that it brings people and the positive energy is just priceless. Amazing. Yeah. Agreed. I mean, thank you so much for answering all the questions. So yes, that is great. It was a pleasure to talk with you. Yeah. And to talk about my passion. I mean, I know you said during Jay's interview with you that you are a member of kind of like a butterfly society of people who have butterflies. What is that called again? International Butterfly Breeders Association. And how many people are there in the state that do that? Is it just you or? So there's one other member and that is Paradise Monarchs. And Paradise Monarchs sells the chrysalis boxes. I've seen that at the farmer's market. Yeah. Yes. Yes. So we work very closely together. We have a good partnership. That's great. I heard that though, you know, I always wonder how, I mean, I know you said it's easy to get them in the envelope, but I actually had a couple of chrysalis that fell and then, you know, on the ground because I have them in these nets and they make a chrysalis on the net and then it like kind of falls. And so what I've been doing is I try to use some glue and tape it up there. And I see how he does it and it seems so easy for him. But I find it actually really hard because I glued myself multiple times. Okay. So just so you know, the chrysalis does not need to hang for Butterfly to emerge. But the reason that it fell maybe because it's not healthy. And so even if you hang it, when they make the jay, when they're forming the chrysalis, they have to hang. But once the chrysalis is dry, it does not have to hang. Oh, I didn't know that. I thought they had to hang because it made it easier for them to become a butterfly. As long as they have something to crawl up onto when they emerge, they can dry their wings. They can dry their wings and then just hang on to maybe the side of the tent. Yeah. I mean, what if it's been, you know, I don't know if I brought some inside and they were, I put them in a cup and I put like some rope and I glued it and everything. And it's been, I feel like it's been really long and it's probably just never going to become a butterfly, right? Because it only takes a certain amount of time. So maybe it's good. Yeah. Yeah, it's just. But in nature, less than 10%. Make it through the whole cycle. Yeah. No. I'm sure you're getting more than 10%. Oh yeah. Yeah. My husband says there's expected casualties, but I just hate it. Yeah. When you see like a butterfly that's crinkled or, you know, the chrysalis, you know, I mean, but I don't know if it's, I heard though that the chrysalis hatching time or whatever is due to the heat, the amount of heat we have like in different places and in the colder climates that it takes longer. Is that true? That is true. That is true. So I thought maybe because I brought them inside that it's a little bit cooler and that's why they hadn't come out, but. But the variation is just one or two days difference. Yeah. Yeah. It's not a week's time. Yeah, it's very sad. I'm just gonna have to give them. I'll probably just bring them outside. So you just have to focus on the ones that you were successful with. Yeah. Yeah. And never mind, you know, the ones that you weren't because you were successful more than 10%. Yeah. You're better than nature. Yeah. I did. I meddled in nature big time. My crown flowers, I mean, I don't know if you know much about crown flowers, but I feel like it's on the verge of death because it was like every single leaf has been eaten because I keep putting nuts around it. So I've actually been trying to fertilize it and water it. And I don't really think they need much actually because I had one at my old house. I never meddled like this. I never put nuts around it or anything, but I started to become interested in seeing what would happen if I did it. And so now like my crown flowers completely obliterated by these butterflies, you know. It's because of the February boom. But if you, I use Miracle Girl and it will come back. Yeah. It's very resilient. It's a very resilient plant considering all the suffering that it goes through, you know, with these butterflies. But that's why we have the plants, right? Yeah. That is why we have the plants. Not so that the plant looks pretty. It's because we want to feed the butterfly with the caterpillars. That's true. All right. I guess we should probably, it's probably near time, Max. I think I'll start wrapping it up. This is Dr. Grace O'Neill. This is Healthy Planet on the ThinkTech live streaming network series. We've been talking with Darlene Lou McDowell about monarch butterflies. Thanks to you all for being here. Thanks to Max, our broadcast engineer and the rest of the crew at ThinkTech for hosting our show. And thanks to you, our listeners for listening. I'll see you on March 17th for more of Healthy Planet on ThinkTech, the show for people who care about their health and the health of our planet. Our next show features guests, Laura Leigh Blanchard of the Lailani Farm Sanctuary. If you have ideas for the show, please contact me at HealthyPlanetThinkTech at gmail.com. Check out my website at greasonhawai.com for more information on my projects, including future show guests. I'm Dr. Grace O'Neill. Aloha, everyone.