 Hi, this is Andy Simon with Sableman Space Burlington and we have a distinguished panel today to talk about the Champlain Parkway and recent developments. The title of the show is South End Update Right Way or Wrong Turn. Tony suggested maybe right way or wrong way but either way. There's a lot to talk about. I want to introduce Mark Hughes, Executive Director of the Racial Justice Alliance in Vermont. Tony Reddington, who's with the Pine Street Coalition and a longtime highway planner by profession. Steve Goodkind also with the Pine Street Coalition, former director of public works in Burlington, former city engineer and former candidate for mayor for the progressive party. Among other things. So there's a lot to talk about and I think the center of our discussion is going to be about environmental justice and racial justice related to the Parkway but as a save open space and also as a member of Friends of Engelsby Brook. I'd like to hear a little bit about the environmental impact of the current plan as proposed by the city for the Champlain Parkway. And also how that might be mitigated by the right way plan that Pine Street Coalition is is presenting. Sure, I can start Andy. Thank you. The Engelsby Brook has been a concern right from the get go and a lady who's been active in the, in the preservation area, Diane Gayer was a member of our group. The Engelsby Brook, people realize is the largest stream in Burlington that enters Lake Champlain. You don't see much of it because much of it's been put underground over the years. And the proposed Parkway would do the same would take about a 200 foot strip of the Engelsby Brook and stick it into the ground and force it to go through a pipe. And what I would say is not a very nice thing to do to what a natural area, particularly one that is so important to the, to the south end of the city so the, our union of what we call now our union of the right way which is Pine Street Coalition, Marx Group, Vermont Racial Justice Alliance and 40th Burlington, which owns Innovation Center on Lakeside Avenue. And from the beginning that we believe that the preservation of not only the book itself but the shorelines and the flood floodplain area should be a prime consideration, and we shouldn't be throwing what was going to be a four lane highway and now it's still a wide two lane highway right through through and over the book and barrier. So that has been a chief consideration. It is today and it will continue to be an objective of our union right union for Champlain right way. Okay, great. So, my take on what the city is putting forward is that the Champlain Parkway as planned is moving forward. There are no obstacles in the way. There are. There's no reason why they shouldn't go ahead with their phased plan that they put forth the city council. What's the perspective, and what are the concerns from Pine Street Coalition from the Racial Justice Alliance about this plan and what are you proposing as an alternative. I'll take the key question, Andy, which is, what is the status. The Pine Street Coalition went to US District Court two years ago on D-Day, 6 of June, with a court suit to stop the Parkway. That suit has been held in abeyance because, oh, surprise, the federal officials agreed with us that the new environmental justice regulations had not been applied to the Parkway. So they asked for a delay, which obviously we not only didn't oppose but supported the application of these rules. That court suit still sits there today two years later. I'll let Mark address what was done or not done in terms of that environmental justice process. So the idea that the city, which is every year they say, oh, we're going to start construction this next spring. They've been saying that for a decade now. In fact, we would like to see some kind of resolution, some kind of change that we could then get to the table to so that the Parkway could a reasonable project could go forward on behalf of the South End and its needs up today. But right now we're in court and unless something changes, that court suit would be then begun again, become active and at the normal course of events, a court suit on a project like this would take six to seven years to be resolved. And that's what our lawyers tell us. So that gives you an idea what the actual statuses versus what the rosy scenario painted by the city leadership would have you believe. Thank you, Tony. I guess, then, can we move on to the environmental justice aspect of it and what what if the city is in fact the city, state and federal process has addressed that in any meaningful way and what you're proposing from from the other side of this discussion. Mark, you take that on. Andy, thank you, thank you for having me. This is a great conversation. This is the first time that we've had the opportunity to engage like this I think we're going to do a number more of these. I would love the back up though if you don't mind and and just maybe set the stage a little bit more for the for the discussion at hand imagining that folks are hearing about the Champlain Parkway and maybe they have some questions and I think it's really important to understand this project is, you know, it was, you know, things that were happening during that time was as we were thinking about, you know, that, you know, maybe we should have, we should do something, some doubt somewhere down the line like land use maybe we might get to act to 50. And the civil rights movement was in full swing across the United States. So, this is how old this project is, there's a whole cast of characters. It's almost like the, the, the, the, the who's who of everybody. And that's Ingleby Ingleby's, Ingleby's, Brooke, if I can say it is, is involved, Tony mentioned for you. There's a super fun site involved in this conversation there's maple king, a fluent white neighborhoods, businesses in Washington, shoppers, DOT, DPW, VTrans, CCRPC and EIEIO and all of the rest. There's so many players in this particular thing. And as the story goes, it seemed like a good idea to route traffic from I 189. As you come out to what we now know to be the road to nowhere, which is actually the first part of this project as you come out up on 189 as you are sitting there. Denny's is there as you recall, the, the market 32 is there and so forth buffalo wild wings. So as you get the intention was to be able to take that off ramp, and it would just dump you into downtown, ultimately. So for those who are watching, I think that's really, really important to understand because the reason why this project was designed was to reduce traffic in an affluent white neighborhood in the south into Burlington and also provide a pathway for those who want to spend money, who though, though, obviously you would assume that they have money to spend in downtown Burlington shopkeepers. So this is commerce to be able to spend money in downtown Burlington. Okay. And what, what they discovered during the process is that there is a super fun site, which literally calls pins that's not hundreds of millions of dollars to clean up that was right on the trajectory. And so what they decided to do, instead of figuring out how and oh by the way, it to feed into this is barge canal, it to feed into the lake. In the, every now and then it will spit something out into the lake because it hasn't been cleaned up. So nobody stopped this project to determine how we go about cleaning up that mess. What they decided to do is to end around that mess and nobody's talking about that mess anymore, nor is there anyone being held accountable for it. Likely someone profited quite well from whatever was done in that space. So this project was detoured and now it's going through an area of the state, the city that we call maple King, which just so happens to be the blackest and the brownest, and the most populist refugee resettlement area in the entire state. So that's where the conversation starts. So I think that it's important to understand that this project would reduce traffic at the same time in an affluent white neighborhood, by as much as 74%. And at the same time, increased traffic in this neighborhood by as much as maybe 30 to 34%. That's the groundwork that we're working off of. That's that's where everything kind of starts the conversation starts for those who were watching and for those who maybe didn't understand the background. So we've got a lot of problems and if, if nothing else, and I'll stop here and go back to you. I don't know that I've completely answered the question, but I'm going to look to my colleagues to to kind of pick up more on this conversation. If this doesn't, if this doesn't provide us any other lesson. I think you hopefully if you're listening, you've gotten something out of that, but we can also see where there's this convergence of this environmental where we have this, we have racial justice, we have all of the great movie, I guess is what I'm saying here because we've got this. We've got economics, we have capitalism, we've got affluent white folks, we have environment, we have, we have environmental justice, we have racial justice. You know, we're, we're looking over at Engelsby and we're seeing how that overlaps with maple king and how it overlaps with commerce in the city. So all of this stuff is a convergence of a perfect recipe for disaster in right way is trying to avoid that. So I'll kick it back over to you for, and thanks for allowing me to give the background. Hey, thank you so much Mark I just want to, I want to be sure that we address at this some point in this discussion, the, the question of why the city, and seemingly the state and federal federal highway. Commission, or administration is persisting with this plan and insisting on not addressing the right way proposal. So, please let me take that one Andy. Okay, I'm really glad you asked that question. In a word, money, period. This entire thing, everything that we're talking about just like everything else that we deal with. I mean, look, this whole thing about racism or systemic racism, if you will, from our perspective, you know, we have to go back to genocide and slavery, and even that was about money. I think we need to stop over complicating the issues that we're dealing with, you know, with the decisions are made at city conflict decisions are made in the mayor's office the decisions are made at the statewide level decisions are made on the federal level on this, the entire purpose of this was about money, it was about being able to provide those who are won businesses downtown the ability to bring folks in to to it was to placate those who are white and affluent in the south end to give folks who are white and don't have to live in the city the ability to access, you know, to be able to spend their money. And, and once this thing goes shoveling ground, I'll guarantee you it's also about those folks will be profiting from the project as well. And one thing I can assure you that you won't find many black or brown folks that are benefiting economically across. Thank you so much for that mark. Just a quick follow up on that. Why are the way. Yeah, I can hear you Steve. Let me just ask, but let me just ask this question and you can follow up with that. Why, why wouldn't the city see the right way proposal as a way to move forward, instead of as an obstacle to them. I think everything that Mark said is true, but they're also something and it's been this way for a long time there's egos involved in this thing at the federal level at the state level and at the city level. And I think this, the fact that the EIS was not changed at all is as much due to that as anything they are not going to admit that they've made a mistake. They're not going to admit they did wrong. And they all want to just get this thing done. And you clarify, I mean you don't really care about the issues we're talking about they just want it off the books it's it's a project that's been around for a long time it's what's called a MEGC project it has a very favorable funding ratio the feds pay for most of it more than most other highway projects. And it's, but every state used to have these we got the only one or two left in the country now, they want it done. And it doesn't matter to them, how it gets done they just wanted it's off the books they want to check a box, especially the feds in the state. The city, I think the mayor would sort of like to get it done but I think he's made deals with them. And he, he's not a person that can back off from things that just his ego. He again wants it built to show that he can build it on his watch. And they're not interested in taking any more time. They're not interested in changing it they want it done they want to check the box and say they did it. And it's their egos that drive them. It's too bad but they just can't look back. You would think the mayor would say this is a great opportunity now to do it right. In fact, Tony and I will always say that shape and spend to the current public work director has said a number of times in meetings that if we were designing this project today, it wouldn't be like this. He's acknowledging that this is not the way you would do it, but they're doing it. They're doing it. They're doing it by politics by ego, and all the other things that Mark said. And they just don't want to admit they're wrong they don't want to admit that they made a mistake in 2009 when they issued the rod. This project they don't want to say that there was anything wrong with that. And that's what the is reflects nothing was wrong. It's ridiculous if you look at the laws have changed but nothing was wrong. The city back then objected to this project the way they approved it. Well saying but nothing was wrong. So, that's what we're up against. Can we thank you Steve, can we, can we be careful about clarifying acronyms that we use like EIS and rod and, and other rod is record of decision. Okay, yes is the environmental impact statement. The record is the sets what this project is going to get look like and what they're going to, what the feds in the state are going to agree to with the project. I'd like to clarify too, Steve that the letters EIO are just simply meaningless. And I just threw that throw those in just. You know, what are you going to do. Okay, it took a super fun site for them for the state and the, and the feds to change the direction of the project. Also, think about this for a moment there there has been change. The original concept back in the 1950s was a ring road around Burlington, and that that the Champlain Parkway was to bring a four lane highway right through the south end through the waterfront and connect up to the I-89 and ultimately through the circumferential highway back to I-189. As I think we all know that the section through the waterfront died decades ago. The circumferential highway died last decade. And this is a remnant. Think about this that they spent $30 million building a four lane highway between the interstate on Shelton Road right to Home Avenue. You go down there it's the road to nowhere $30 million. What are we going to do with that $30 million roadway that 60 foot wide that can handle four lanes of traffic. We're going to grind it up and recycle it. So times do change. The real threat that the project has right now is the union of the, the three opponents of which to represented here today from our racial justice and pine street at the US District Court. While the while Steve is correct that the egos are involved here. There's also a facts of life that are involved here. The facts of life are these leaders do not want a six year court process in which they might lose. We hope. Right. We are, we are confident that they will lose. So, at some point, those egos are going to result as we have asked for now for years are coming together a collaborative approach to a resolution so that this project can be revised and change you know basically improve the King Maple neighborhood not destroy it. And, you know, preserve the angles we brook and the natural areas around it. And of course get right now part of what started us all was the walk by council who endorsed the pine street coalition proposals, because there's not an inch of sidewalk and there's not an inch of bikeway. I think Burlington think there is nothing more popular in Burlington than walking and biking, yet there is the, there is a degrading of walking and biking in the, in the parkway. You can't, you know, you can't make some of this stuff up. So, you know, people, it will be brook, the, the walking bike. And we haven't even talked about shutting off the connection between south and, and Hanifords and make McDonald's of all things, the people in the south end if they want to get there at the parkways bill, they got to go out this to Sheldon road. I mean, you cannot, if you sat down and try to design a roadway today that works against the economic, social, environmental, all the code words you want to use the current parkway design is the one you would come up with. And we won't have it. So here's, here's the question that seems really key to me is, how would the right way proposal that pine street and the racial justice alliance are putting forward, address the concerns of the king and maple neighborhood. What, what would you do differently in this movie when you rewrite the script to address those concerns. Well, I'll, I'll just say this, I think that there's a, there's, there's a couple parts to that question. Because I'm, I'm, I'm kind of, I'm quasi reluctant to answer the question in this photo, you know, without a, without a approach of just looking at the total project. The reason why is, is because the constituencies that I represent are not the constituencies constituencies that Tony and and in Judith and Cindy and Steve representing and there's always this tendency when we start talking about one vested interest that there's this division and that and that's how they get it every time they divide. So I just want to make it clear before I say what I'm going to say is, is that, you know, it's important that the totality of the project be considered. You know, I think it's important for us to consider when we come from, you know, when we come off 189 across home to to Flynn, that it's important to get back out on to the time street, you know, because that that's that avoidance of that particular area down there is is important just as important in in in some ways to some people as it is to take up, you know, over at, you know, right as we come into the, I'm just going to call it the 200th block of to right approach in the soda plant. What's the name of that road Tony. What is it Kilburn. Yeah. So that it's just as important to take Kilburn to the I think I believe it's to the west, and then to arc it around and join it into what is now battery street so basically if you imagine. I think the map was just up a moment ago if you imagine from right around that silver and area, just creating a little arc that goes around if you can put the arrow on it. Yeah, avoid that completely avoid, but that's, you know, that's a part of it. The other thing is, if you go through English be what, what, what you have is is you have a situation coming up. I believe it's lakeside that creates a disaster back over at pine street. You know, so there's, there's, there's all kinds of reasons why this project makes sense. It's done the right way. And I think that the, your question, although appreciated how to circumvent the maple king neighborhood is important. You know, I think the right way is more important that we get that we get this thing that we because what they have done in order to prevent having a conversation about the right way is first they get convoluted, they being DPW, the, the folks over at the trans and I guess it's endorsed or fingerprints on from the fed isn't that oh let's first talk about. Let's just, you know, let's create a larger discussion we want to talk about all of the projects that are happening in the north on the south end, which, which to me, because I live on the north side of town, I live in the hood. So, I mean, so it's one of those things where why are we talking about south end projects anyway, I digress, but the point is that they've created this whole different conversation. And then, and then through that conversation, they've decided not to talk about certain parts of this project at all. They've decided to, you know, make empty commitment about this whole arc that I just showed you at Kilburn, that somehow suggest that the decision will be later on the road whether they're actually when and how they're going to actually do that. I think it's really, I think it's really important for us to stick together on this. I think we need we need to be talking about the right way as a whole project, and under no circumstances should this project be completed. And without that, what we call the real yard enterprise that is that that little arc there, Andy, that's, there's, there's no way that we should complete this project under any circumstances without without that being first being done first. Correct. Tony, I hear you. You know, and it goes back to the original concept of this road. This road was always going to bypass neighborhoods, always. King Street Maple and includes home and Flynn. That was what it was going to do. The fence changed that in 2009. Up until then, that's what this was about. So the idea that it's going through King Street. That's a new concept, something that I don't think the city has ever agreed with. And as Mark says, the solution is to go back to including something like the rail enterprise project in the project, which was in earlier versions of the city's project that took it out. So we want to go back to that and got to remember though again it's a whole project that isn't just one piece, but the goals of going around neighborhoods that was a primary goal. And the feds just ignored that in 2009 when they approved and insisted that it be this version or no version that included going right through King Street. One of the arguments that the city is making now is that the real yard enterprise loop that you've been highlighting would take a number of years to be permitted and and planned. And we would delay this project considerably is that something that you see as an as an obstacle or a problem. It is what it is. You're going to get it right. It's not an excuse for doing it wrong. Yeah, let's talk about that for me. I think because I think that there, there is this, this, this, this narrative that is created, you know, when there is a political or economic power, and, and there are, there's, you know, certain groups of folks who are her literally voiceless. In, in what we, what we find in this, this is a, a, a racially systemic thing that you will always see is is there, there is this, this false narrative of urgency, and that that sense of urgency is always determined by the folks with the political and economic power in those folks who do not have political and economic power, their, their sense of urgency is, is never really taken very seriously. So this, this, these false emergencies that we hear, you know, all of the time. Oh, we got to hurry up we got it. If there was a big, if, let's just say for example I'll just give you one example right now we've got an unprecedented of us at the, at the statewide level as a result of our funding. Okay. There is, there is a sense of urgency in, in many of these communities across the state in terms of their economic and despair. What's going on is, is that there's this statewide tour that's happening with the speaker and the pro tem, and they want to take their time and figure out if and when and how they want to spend it. You see what I'm getting at here. This is a 60 year project. So, you know, I think it's ludicrous. But it's actually ridiculous for us or anybody else to be sitting around, having a conversation about the implications of another three to five years. And this project was actually planned in the 50s. For us to be to say, well we're in a, we're in a hurry. And the other thing is, is there's this whole again it's all about money. It's either. We're going to be may lose money, or there's a prospect, the prospect of gaining money may no longer exist. That's it in a nutshell, we see it all the time. You know, I don't want to, I don't want to bash, I don't want to bash capitalism, but greed is a problem. So, the thing is, is that, you know, even the decision at the city console is driven with one consideration, notwithstanding, I'm not ignoring their fiduciary responsibility I'm a smart guy. The point here is, is those that decision is being made out of one thing and it is literally a threat. And it's well documented and reinforced just recently with documentation from the state, as well as the fed saying if you guys don't do this, you're going to have to pay us some ridiculous amount of money that doesn't make any sense like $45 million or something like that. So the city console is facing making a decision, facing their constituents and making a decision in saying, let the cards fall where they may bring it on. I will put people above money. No matter what you threaten me with, I'm not going to let that go that takes some intestinal fortitude, some political will. Unfortunately, we're not seeing that we're not seeing it happen. Yeah. They are using the threat that somehow the money will have to be paid back. There's one scenario where the money would have to be paid back. There are infinite number of scenarios where it doesn't so they're focusing on the one thing which there's so many ways and I'll let that happen that it's crazy. And they're holding that up as the boogeyman but the truth is, there's a million ways to do this and not pay it back. There's one way to not do it and have to pay it back. We have infinite choices here if we want to take them. We don't have to worry about the one possibility of having to pay it back when there's so many other ways to do this and not have to pay it back. Just think of the fact that it was Governor Dean who said no to opening the road to nowhere a four lane highway right to the intersection of Home Avenue, and forgetting why he made that decision. In fact, now here we are about 20 years later recognizing that not only was he right but we never needed a four lane highway to begin with. And what the right way people are saying is that we need even a more scaled down a project, our proposal would cost basically eight to $10 million less than what's being proposed right now. But so on the one hand, if money is important, then we're the ones that are trying to save it. And the federal highway and the egos of the federal highway state and some some city leadership are getting in the way of what is we've what is really a sensible design if we could all come to an agreement. I agree with entirely that the timing and view of a half century project of waiting three or four years, we just spent two years spinning our wheels. That's two years. And if it's six to seven years to get the right way, excuse me the railroad enterprise project done so we immediately improve the conditions in King Maple, which would be a huge victory and a huge benefit to a community which 26% live in poverty and 30% don't even have access to a car and a dependent on walking and transit. That's a huge victory for for for that low income neighborhood who were forced by the federal highway agency to accept a project that cuts them in two. And that decision was made in 2009. We need to get sensible here since 2010 or so when the record decision was issued. Where have they been. What have they done with the last 10 or 11 years, all of a sudden it's an emergency. They dragged their feet they didn't take opportunities they could have had when they were presented to them. And now they're all of a sudden saying got to have it fast. You just whittled away 11 years and you could have done so much more with this. So I think is we're all saying the argument that it might take a little more time well to get it right it's probably gonna, and they have frittered away this time. So far, John about 11 or 12 years now and done nothing. Can the federal government and the Vermont Agency of Transportation sit there with a straight face and be upset because the King Maple neighborhood, which they decided would have this parkway cut it into that somehow 10 years later there would be some people would say well we really don't want to do that. And they made the decision to do that, not not the city. It was purely a federal and state decision. Correct. Why are you optimistic you expressed some optimism before why are you optimistic that the district court would rule in favor of the pine tree coalition the racial justice alliance and 40th Burlington where it's you know, we've made some gains, you know, in spite of all of our the fact that the railroad enterprise project the connection between Kilburn and battery street, that little arch, which bypasses the King Maple neighborhood. That's a hundred and 80 degree turn by the federal people who say, Oh, we'll fund that now we think that's a good idea we'll give you $20 million to do that. But that is, that is because that is because the pine tree coalition innovation center and Vermont racial justice alliance brought back pressure to the to the parkway as it's currently designed. That's a huge victory in the in the mix of things people will forget it. But if we're talking about a change. As Mark, as Steve talked about the egos involved, there has been some ego shift in the last two years. And if we go back back to court in a few weeks. There may be some additional shift because the entire current design could be stopped. The project would be stopped but that the design changes where we're advocating for which would relate to environment walking biking, you know, to environmental justice to the preservation of angles of work. Those are the issues we're going to court on, and we've been working on it for a while. Where can people find out more information I want to, before we end and I want to get this in so that we can run out of time. Where can people follow closely and get more information about what's going on with with this project and with these proposals. Probably not from DPW. Online safe streets, Burlington.com. Again, that's just safe streets, Burlington one word. And if you search on Facebook pine street coalition, you will you'll come to our website that brings a lot of historic information up. I've been to the Vermont Racial Justice Alliance website also I believe this material there. Mark, is that true. Yeah, and you can, and I would say just Google right way and, and it'll land you on our pages that we posted and there's also will be will continue to post some of the updates. I think, and maybe we might want to take it offline but I'm there. I think I think the outcome of here is is the outcome here is really not a binary outcome is really important to understand that that this thing can go in multiple directions still at this point as part of the reason why we've agreed to show up and have this conversation there's still a lot of folks who can see there's a lot of folks who don't know about census tracks 10 and 11 who don't know about the Superfund site who don't know about this rule Chris idea who don't know about the mischaracterization of the original EIS of the limited scope EIS the limited scope EIS is just a mischaracterization of the representation of the poor in the black and brown folks that are in the space a lot of folks don't know that a lot of folks don't know and understand you know how this thing is playing out and I think as folks do begin to dial in they're going to increasingly understand more that this is a this is a a textbook example of profit over people and these people happen to be black and brown and poor people and you couldn't hit these people on a dartboard if you tried 20 times if you were throwing darts. That's how difficult it is to find a project that bifurcates this neighborhood in this state. So I think once folks once that becomes increasingly more. I think in in a blogosphere and folks begin to see and understand that I'm confident that not just in the court but maybe even there are several other ways this thing can get derailed and I'm still optimistic that it's just not going to go forward because I guess you know, call me an optimist but I'm not seeing this kind of wrong stand not here not on our watch. I actually think that that is a great place to put a pin in this discussion for now. Put a ball on it. And, and I like to thank you all mark Hughes Tony Reddington Steve good kind, and thanks CCTV for providing this space to talk about what's going on with the right way proposal in the Champlain Parkway. There's obviously much more to talk about, but I think that we will continue in other other forums and, and perhaps also on another program on CCTV. This is Andy Simon with save open space Burlington and we'll see you next time.