 to Cooper Union. I'm Joshua Cooper your host and today we're looking at ban the bomb, protect our planet. There's a new treaty that entered into force and it's now time for us to look at next steps. I'm very fortunate to be able to be with three amazing people with decades of experience on peace and human rights and also dynamism in direct action. First is Alan Ware, the global coordinator for parliamentarians for nuclear nonproforation and disarmament and Yasmeen Silva, partnership manager for beyond the bomb and Kekeshon Basu, founder of Green Hope Foundation in Forbes 30 under 30. We're at a historic time. On January 20th Biden was inaugurated in new Congress that could make a difference. On January 21st President Biden announced the renewal of the START treaty and Putin agreed a few days later but really important as well January 22nd was the entry into force of the treaty on prohibition of nuclear weapons TPNW and on January 27th the bulletin of atomic scientists announced that the doomsday clock remains at 100 seconds to midnight. When we look at all this is going on in the middle of a COVID crisis I would like to ask you Kekeshon and Yasmeen with other issues like climate change and biodiversity loss human rights race relations and the pandemic impacting so much on our lives and futures why should we be concerned about nuclear weapons that have perhaps kept the peace and have not been used since 1945. Kekeshon. Sure thank you for the question and you know that is exactly why we should be concerned because why didn't we wait for so long and how long can we live in fear and the issue of nuclear weapons remains unaddressed because of this veil of secrecy because it's made out to be a distant and perhaps mythical threat but you know ask anyone in Japan and you will find out that for them it is the most important and relevant aspect of their lives and even today a person who talks about it starts crying why a nuclear warhead has the potential to kill millions instantly and it's the greatest threat to present and future generations and it's created by humankind and literally the most potent pathway to the complete annihilation of humanity and the planet and I always compare this threat to the sword of democracy because it's hanging by a thin thread that can snap at any moment and if only the world would stop the suffering from that self-induced myopia and wake up to this threat we would have lasting peace and honestly I find it really ironic that nations should use the pretext of weapons of vast destruction as a deterrent when in reality it is because of these weapons that we still don't have global peace and these are live munitions not something that's kept in the museum so the threat is ever-present and must be addressed with urgency. Thank you Kekeshon and of course in Hawaii on January 13 in 2018 everyone did wake up a little bit more but I think we've forgotten a bit Yasmin would you like to continue? Definitely so at Beyond the Bomb we like to talk about nuclear weapons is the idea that nuclear weapons are issue zero there's something that's in the background something that most people don't think about and yet they touch our lives in such a myriad of ways especially in the United States we don't often think about really nuclear weapons have been an environmental racism issue look at where we've mined for nuclear materials look at where we've tested and stored nuclear waste this impacts indigenous communities black and brown communities and low-income communities across the United States so it's not just this existential idea of nuclear weapons through the Trump administration and even there are plans to continue into the Biden administration of modernizing our nuclear arsenal and who will that harm that will continue to harm those exact same communities so we really need to make steps to stop this especially in the United States because we are nuclear armed power we have the opportunity to bridge that gap between the nuclear weapons issue and all of the other social justice issues that are so pressing today very important points and let's see if we could bring Alan in Alan is there any possibility that the Biden administration Russia and other nuclear armed countries will a join the treaty on the prohibition nuclear weapons or be take other significant steps to reduce nuclear risk in the nuclear arms race and make progress on global nuclear disarmament well thanks Joshua and Aloha everybody I'm originally from New Zealand and my country was one of the leaders in the negotiations for this new treaty on the prohibition of nuclear weapons and I'm very pleased that non-nuclear countries have taken this initiative to develop this treaty but it is very unlikely that the nuclear arms states or those allied to the nuclear arms states that rely on nuclear terms will join this particular treaty they weren't involved in the negotiations except for one Netherlands and the proposals that Netherlands put into the negotiations to make it more possible for nuclear arms states or allied states to join were not accepted so in a sense it is a treaty of the non-nuclear states but what's important is it elevates the issues so that people know about it and then they can call on the nuclear arms states and allied states to take other steps for nuclear disarmament and we have a huge opportunity with the Biden administration because Joe Biden in the election campaign was putting forward policy proposals he's already made announcements as you mentioned at the start he already announced you know the US will join with Russia in extending the new start treaty he's all also said that he'll he'll work to bring the United States back into the nuclear arms agreement with with Iran which doesn't have nuclear weapons and that nuclear agreement was to prevent Iran getting them he's already talked about lowering the role of nuclear weapons and possibly even developing a no first use policy which would bring countries back he's talked also about using diplomacy to solve the the situation with North Korean nuclear weapons so we have a lot of opportunities I think with Biden as president of the United States and with a Congress that is now led by the Democrats so they can support the president thank you Alan and Kekushan can you kind of weigh in on this question as well sure I do agree with what Alan just said and I think that for me based on the initial indications that the it's the Biden administration will work to implement its campaign promises and as was just mentioned it's already announced to the renewal of the start treaty and the fact that this administration is keen on going the opposite way of the previous one does make me quite optimistic even though I think that it's too early to rejoice but at the same time this may not result in all of the nuclear arms states joining the tpnw because you know how do we deal with North Korea or with Pakistan states very dictators or the army hold the reins of power so I think that the next step in this process should be towards getting full disclosures on how much these nations are spending on nuclear weapons and as Costa Rica reminded us in its UN gentleman last year the global military spending was $1.9 trillion in 2019 and to quote a former Canadian senator the Honourable Douglas Roche government spend on building the conditions for peace only 2.7% of what they spend on preparing for war that is horrific and once the general public is aware that their leaders are giving away trillions of dollars money to the weapons industry while scrounging on spending for healthcare and education public opinion will turn in either forcing leaders to take remedial action or they will elect more prudent people into the parliament really great points because we know especially in this middle of this pandemic and we know there's other crises like waves coming in facing global civil society and we must be able to reimagine the way that we live and we know when people say they want to go back to normal normal was the problem and the military industrial complex was one of those aspects so what political forces in the US and other nuclear armed and allied states are promoting the nuclear arms race and what action can civil society take to counter these forces to ensure that disarmament steps are taken Alan. So Kekecha yourself have already indicated one of those that is the weapons industry there's a broad weapons industry and there's also many of those corporations are also involved in a nuclear weapons industry so they're making it's not just the warheads it's also the delivery system so the missiles and the submarines and they're making a lot of money out of this and they want to keep making money and that's influencing the decisions of Congress which is the one that decides in the United States for example the budget in the UK the UK parliament we see it played out very clearly in the United States go back to when President Obama negotiated the new start agreement with Russia he took it to the US Congress to be ratified and the entire republican caucus in the Senate said we're not going to support it unless you spend more money on nuclear weapons basically they wanted the money for you know their industries which is crazy because if you spent that money on other industries you'd create a lot more jobs and you have a much better economy and you provide much better products but that's a very powerful industry so what do we do about that industry there's two ways we can work on this or three probably one is direct work on the nuclear weapons budget so Senator Markey in the United States has got the same act smarter approach to nuclear expenditure until now he hasn't been able to get a majority because the the democrats were in the minority but now they might be able to get a majority on specific Senate and House measures to cut the nuclear weapons budget that's similar we're doing similar actions with some of our parliamentary members in the UK and in France but there's more than that this whole industry is also many of these corporations are on you know the market and you can invest and there's countries there's cities there are banks there are pension funds there are universities investing in the nuclear weapons industry so we can call on those to stop investing already four governments have my government New Zealand none of the public funds are allowed to invest in the nuclear weapons industry now we can move our universities to do the same our cities our our religious organizations if they have funds any investor can actually shift and think i'm not going to invest in the nuclear arms race i'm going to invest in better things great points and i know when Honolulu hosted the US Conference of Mayors they had resolutions looking at foreign issues related to nuclear kakushan would you like to add some perspectives on that absolutely yeah the huge profits that the arms industry make are the real drivers behind the charade and the political leaders are often just mere puppets controlled by these arms barons who pour billions into their campaign funds and then it's quit for a quote after they get elected so leaders also shout the nuclear arms discourse either in national security or in right wing nationalism or both as we're seeing in some of the countries now and we as civil society continue to fall for it and honestly the only route to negate this charade is through education we need to build awareness and that is why disarmament education is so important as it will make the general public aware and thereby enable us to dealing national security and patriotism from nuclear weapons and lay bare the real agenda of profit and megalomania that drives this insane race and disarmament education holds the key to removing the mists of secrecy and misinformation that allow these nations to justify their nuclear agenda to the masses and that is our mission at greenhouse foundation where we use education for sustainable development to engage those who are left behind and our work on peace and sustainability is not about strikes and protests but through grassroots actions and disarmament education that make people aware about the threat of nuclear weapons to eliminate the misconception that nuclear weapons are an adult issue it's not it affects all of us and therefore it is upon us as humanity across generations and as global citizens to take action and as we say at greenhouse foundation we want books not news excellent point and so when you look at that the intergeneration was absolutely essential we focus on that as well and the international approach absolutely essential and what was also crucial is sustainable development goals the 2030 agenda the Paris agreement both of those are positive frameworks how we can ensure a human rights based approach to ensure for freedoms for all people around the planet yes me and you were amazing in the last round because you shared the aspect of indigenous rights from the production the mining and I'd like to honor Kerry Dan who was working with the western Shoshone campaigns it's always been conducted on indigenous lands in the U.S. around the world it's always done on indigenous places and so I'd really like you to also share about some of the other movements that are mobilizing especially since you coordinate with partnerships definitely um so I just want to uplift a lot of what Kegashan said as well in the idea that really if we are here to battle corporate and money powers we need a robust grassroots movement in order to counter that because when there's money power what can counter that in equal measure that's people power and so it has a lot as she said to do with education and really giving people the tools to engage with their elected officials because another thing we see in the United States is a lot of elected officials believe that because this is a shrouded process this is something that's kept out of the public eye and because they don't hear about it from their constituents those who are agnostic and who could step up and be champions don't because they don't think it's an issue that their constituents care about and we know that that's just wrong um so in terms of other movements and things happening so besides obviously in the United States there's a really huge push for no first use that would essentially make it so the United States makes a declaratory policy that it would not use a nuclear weapon first is it abolition no is it a step towards abolition and something necessary to bring allies and other nuclear armed powers to the table for diplomacy I definitely think so but in terms of restorative justice as you mentioned and I mentioned before so many indigenous low income and folks of color across this country have been hurt by the nuclear system and they are not being compensated at all or recognized a small number of people have through an act that was instituted in the 90s called the radiation exposure compensation act and that gave health care as well as compensation to those who've been impacted by radiation poisoning because of our nuclear weapon system but that is set to expire in 2022 and that only covers a very small margin of people who we now know have been impacted and so besides pushing for these policies that decrease tensions globally like no first use to really pave the way for disarmament we at Beyond the Bomb are also looking at these domestic policies that will help people who've already been hurt thank you so much and that really is the point that we have to consider it is people power and I believe you used to see one of the former UN secretary general say there's a new superpower and that is people power we know it was rising up against war and what I think we can look at next is what we have to do together when we look at usually the UN security council permanent five and look at the issue of the nuclear armed and allied states they've all said they will not join this new treaty on the prohibition of nuclear weapons are there steps that the country's ratifying the tpnw can take to make real impact on the nuclear arms race alan do you like to share a bit yeah just firstly I want to add a little bit more to the people power because a people power without sort of guidance into policy doesn't get anywhere remember you know the 1980s there were millions of people marching and and gathering and like New York and Bond and Hyde Park um but there wasn't really a good global focused uh process for where to take that energy into actual policy change so I think what the organization like our our network of parliamentarians on nuclear nonproforation and disarmament working with Beyond the Bomb and working with the world future council are looking at is to turn people power into effective policy change so that means building the engagement with mayors with parliamentarians with senators with legislators uh and and then that's important also to to support you know those legislators that are wanting to make a difference they need the support of the people so that engagement is very very important so that's the first point the second point is what can the non-nuclear states do about more than just signing on to a piece of paper a treaty now can they then take action that will actually make it its significant impact on the policies and practices of the nuclear weapon states and I think there are at least two ways that they can after signing on to the treaty they can then adopt measures that will have an impact and these are measures that some countries have already taken uh one is to prohibit the transit of nuclear weapons through your airspace across your land space and in your territorial seas this is actually putting a constraint on the nuclear arms states you know they are flying bombs you know like to replace the bombs that they've got deployed in European countries some of the NATO sharing you know and if they are said told by country sorry you can't fly that plane across our airspace because we think it's got a nuclear bomb on this is going to make the world sort of wake up I mean people probably don't even realize that these nuclear bombs have been flown and planes through their through their skies or that all the weapons are on submarines you know they're out of people's sights so people don't think about them but if these countries say you're not allowed to send those submarines through our territorial seas people are going to pay attention to this the other one which we've already mentioned before is divestment if these countries take on and adopt policies of non-financing of nuclear weapons meaning none of the public funds none of the sovereign wealth funds the pension funds you know other funds that the government manages or government run banks you know are allowed to invest in the nuclear weapons industry and that picks up at the moment there's only four governments that have divested from the nuclear weapons industry so it hasn't made a big impact yet but we know what happened to South Africa you know when there was the big divestment campaign that was launched in the United States it put a real economic push on South Africa to change their apartheid policy so we can see the same happening if the divestment campaign picks up not just at government level but throughout society as I mentioned universities cities you know religious organizations and governments divesting from the nuclear arms race could have a real impact thank you so much Alan and you also bring up the important point about what small states can do I remember in Palau led by major artful society demanded a nuclear-free constitution and all of the energy it took for the US to try to change that position and that's what it really is it's people power and elected officials and I do agree it's definitely policy and now we have a framework that we can move forward kick the show what's your perspective on that now honestly the simple answer is stop dealing with the nuclear arms states and allies because states that have ratified the tpnw need to come together and use their combined economic might to stand up against the NATO and the nuclear arms states and they must not allow their markets to open up to goods and services from the nuclear arms nations because at the end of the day this is a game of profits and this is the only language that the nuclear arms nations understand really good point and that's why I think the economic divestment that campaigns that we're looking at are really looking at trying to put the pressure where it matters most or what that element of society values and since they do look at profit beyond people and they look at prosperity more than they look at a planet it's important that we bring all those elements together is there a law prohibiting nuclear weapons that is binding on the nuclear arms states and how can this be used to advance nuclear disarmament and this one I have for all three of you because you're all doing such amazing advocacy around the world Alan would you like to start okay I'll start but I'd like to say two things about law law is not only about prohibiting you know bad behavior of behavior that's you know against the norms but it's also about facilitating the resolution of conflicts and I think we need both aspects because the United Nations has many legal mechanisms in place that enable countries to achieve their security without relying on the threat or force or on nuclear weapons so this is the alternative for those states that say we have to have nuclear weapons for our security we can come say actually there's many legal political mechanisms for achieving security without nuclear weapons the United Nations charter sets out many of those and they're also in regional organizations on the prohibition side yes there is already a law that has been affirmed by the International Court of Justice and the UN Human Rights Committee that makes the threat or use of nuclear weapons illegal and also establishes an obligation for the elimination of nuclear weapons this includes international humanitarian law which is the laws applicable in wartime during wartime you're allowed to target military targets but not civilians not neutral countries you're not allowed to use indiscriminate weapons you're not allowed to cause unnecessary suffering to combatants nor destroy the environment for future generations nuclear weapons do all those things so the International Court of Justice in 1996 said the threat or use of nuclear weapons is generally illegal and this was followed up in 2018 when the UN Human Rights Committee said actually the threat or use of nuclear weapons is also a violation of human rights the right to life and both of those bodies said there's an obligation to eliminate nuclear weapons that law is binding on the nuclear arms states and allied states so even if they don't join this new treaty on the prohibition of nuclear weapons they have an obligation not to use nuclear weapons and to work for their elimination Alan thank you so much for raising the UN charter which every country has agreed to also more importantly as well the International Court of Justice ruling which I know you were very much involved with and then most recently the UN Human Rights Committee because most countries have ratified the international covenant on civil and political rights and that important part about right to life is definitely expressed there so all those are absolutely other angles that we can use in a way to to hold down and apply moral pressure and legal pressure on those countries I absolutely agree with that that new pure weapons literally go against everything that international humanitarian law states are mandating doing no harm but whether these nations signed the tpnw treaty or not it's now been ratified and it's come into force so it's now up to us our multilateral institutions and civil society to enforce it and citizens of these nuclear arms states will play a key role in forcing their leaders to abide by these laws and so that is the route to our advocacy and that is the route that we must take to achieve a world free of nuclear weapons thank you yes me yeah so I I don't want us to overlook the nonproliferation treaty as well the mpt which five of the nuclear armed states are treaties party to uh and while I know that the mpt has fallen short of a lot of our hopes in the nonproliferation and nuclear elimination community I I don't want to overlook the fact that they said they being the nuclear arm states said that they would pursue in good faith ways to eliminate nuclear weapons and I think that that those of us who live in nuclear armed states that is our in to applying pressure it's definitely not the end all be all but that is a way to open up that conversation and to pursue legislative and executive in the united states anyway means to change the nuclear status quo within the united states and set us on that path towards elimination oh hello yes me kick us on I thought you did mention and I really think it's important I see the rubik's cubes of rights around you the SDGs can you maybe share the relation of the sustainable development goals that 2030 agenda and nuclear disarmament because here in hawaii we conducted the first ever voluntary local review a spearheaded by hawaii green growth where we did a report for all four counties saying this is what we're doing on the 2030 agenda and how we're achieving those 17 global goals yeah absolutely the entire nuclear weapons process from mining production storage and race siting is based on monumental environmental injustice that disproportionately affects indigenous communities as my colleagues mentioned and the armaments industries also a travesty against east justice and strong institutions SDG 16 because it is the most potent threat against all forms of life and it also weeks of injustice and inequality because how can nations waste billions and trillions on these weapons when it could be better used to solve problems of education of healthcare sanitation and during this pandemic providing ventilators to hospitals that have run out of them so to create a life of dignity for all which is the basis of the SDGs we need to stop this profligate spending on nuclear weapons and this is why the sustainable development goals are so deeply interlinked to the call for nuclear disarmament it's an excellent point we have the funds we just have to make sure they're going to the right place that will then of course allow people to achieve the 2030 agenda but also realize all their economic social and cultural rights that are in peril today yes mean we did start already talking about biden and the new congress what are some important legislation and bills that we should be aware of that we could then apply pressure to our elected officials through this time yeah so i alluded to some of them before and i definitely want to state them off but off of kikushan's point i we actually at beyond the bomb recently did an evaluation of how the 30 billion dollars that the u.s wants to spend on our icbm program could be spent and that could be 726 000 intensive care unit beds 84 800 ventilators 363 000 nurses or 181 000 doctors and in the pandemic i think that just seeing where our priorities lie and whether we're invest what kind of security are we investing in and is it actually secure is a really important question to be asking but in terms of what is on the table in the united states so i think divestment is a huge thing so we alluded to biden having to put together a new budget for the next fiscal year but really a piece of legislation a lot of people don't talk about is the ndaa or national defense authorization act and within that is a whole slew of nuclear spending that that we can be talking about that's kind of a hidden process from the united states so beyond the bomb we monitor that for our activists and give them moments to plug in the other pieces of legislation that i think are really important to note are no first use like i said we're waiting on that to be reintroduced by our champions elizabeth warren and adam smith and then the final piece of legislation that i think people should be monitoring is rica that radiation exposure compensation act because i think it shows a reinvestment of our priorities we are saying that harm has been done we're recognizing that nuclear weapons cause harm and we are investing in those people that we harmed so i think they're all three of those are a piece of one big puzzle mahalo yasmin and thank you to all of you as well for joining us it also reminds me of that ben and jerry's orio puzzle where it shows where resources are being spent and we need to be hungry for human rights and holistic human security one last thing i'll end with is the bulletin atomic scientists did announce that the doomsday clock remains at 100 seconds to midnight the clock is ticking would you respond let's make sure we end nuclear weapons that we can ban the bomb and protect our planet mahalo and thank you for joining cooper union