 The name of this block, so the Sakaizen's books that they created, so yeah, we can turn it up. I see that these are two of them. Yeah, yeah. Is it part of the series? They didn't, they didn't, they didn't create like that. They don't create like that. They're still very active. Their story that goes with this particular. So this is that thing as, and this is one of our things. Yeah, this is what came from the validation. So the Marlar is acting as a barrier layer for the object while in storage. It is particularly helpful with textiles when they first come into your collection because textiles are quite delicious to bugs. And what wrapping things in Marlar once it comes in helps you see if there are any bugs because they can't get through that material. You can see them or their bodies or their droplets and understand that this is contaminated. It needs to be treated. And then once you see like okay, it's not, then this can also act as a way to remove it from the box in one piece. So you saw when we took it out, we didn't really have to grab the object. We just grabbed the Marlar and then complete it. So in that case, when there is like a bug in the textiles or anything, how would you fix that problem? So it depends on the piece, but very often with textiles as long as it's safe to, we can put them in the freezer. A lot of bugs can't tolerate cold temperatures for a long period of time. So we would wrap it in a material that protects the work in the freezer and then put it in some layers to help absorb any moisture that might occur in the freezer and then freeze it for three months or so to make sure that any pests that are present are killed in that process. And if it's not something that's safe to go in the freezer, like if it's wooden, you sometimes are very suspect about moving to the freezer or cause the wood to expand in the track and create more cracks. So then you would put it in an opposite environment where there is no oxygen and you basically still make sense of it. Which part of our job is filling things, which is quite satisfying the whole time. You don't want to do that. So then you just suffocate the motor. It's a week long period and then we're all there to try it so that we don't attract bugs that want to be removed. It's good because you don't want something to bring in, something that will be your entire collection. Because that has happened to museums before where they brought in an artifact and didn't keep it quarantined and then found out that that has now disseminated a beetle into their entire collection. That particularly beetles are not very selective about what they eat. So then you have to treat your entire collection that was affected and that can be financially overwhelming or you may not have the space. It's always best to think about one thing that potentially could help one. And cardboard is susceptible to that too, right? Yeah, particularly silverfish like to live in cardboard and cardboard. So that's basically a good thing. So we try not to keep. We try to use our cardboard, particularly just regular round box cardboard. It's delicious and acidic and so you don't want either one of those things near your objects but our cardboard are not as good. So they're not as interested in it. So you can sort of eliminate them by removing the resources. This is actually a really good way to tag textiles. So it's completely fine. I would just recommend again stitching the dish in for a whole party there. So you're not adding a new hole. But particularly with textiles it's hard to keep tags with them if you're not going to sew it all in. Because once you take it out it's just a piece of paper on top. That can flow away but you have to either find that or find a way to re-associate it to its accession number. So a lot of places do use safety pins to keep the tag attached to the works until they're ready to go out. What about the solidating? So here there's rough edges on the fabric. So there's a lot of fraying and overtime or with too much handling or friction in that area and you can cause more fraying and then it will start going over where it's already in stitch. So it depends on what conservator is treating it. But some people would just want to do a small encapsulation with a mesh fabric that would cover that to keep it in fraying. Or some people would want to put a very good solution of a gelatin just along the line of where it's already started fraying. So that way it's acting with a very slight adhesive there. It's helping make sure all those fibers stay together. But it's not introducing anything. So particularly with textiles there's a hesitancy to using absolments. It's just because of how damaging they can be with fabric and the colorings of the fabric. Particularly if you don't know how it will color. Or if it was dyed you don't want to cause any guidelines or any disturbances in the colors that you have present. So in textiles there's a lot of things that are done with water Our interest in textiles is you have to get really good at doing all kinds of stitches so that way your work can be blended in with work for 30 days. So it's not distracting. So pristine environments but not necessarily pristine environments. Yeah. So I should have said that we saw a head in the living room. And then you would have said that you would still take that piece with this textile. But if there was like a new cut over here you could see how it stood there. So would you still take that? That's a political question sometimes. Yeah, it's a political question. Because a very much depends on the piece. Like for example similar to the head and ebony where the artist did that. And that is not part of the work. Then a lot of museums will still take that. But if it was like someone was angry at a museum and did that. Then it may be difficult for a museum to accept that without someone being very attentive and correcting all that damage. Or at least stabilizing it. I appreciate it. You know where I live. And if you'd like to come see the room here at Bearden. Please call me. Make an appointment. And you can see the rest of the collection too. We're trying to make the collection more accessible. Because when we built, when the storage was built it wasn't built for throw. So we're trying to make the collection more accessible. Because when we built when the storage was built it wasn't built for throw. So we're trying to mitigate that now. But you're more than welcome to see the works from the Spelman College collection. And thank you for your attention. So the duty of care. You know what we do as consequences. Thank you so much Ann and Moustarsha. Before we congratulate them on a really, really excited chance to actually see something from your collection. Are there any questions from the floor? Yes. You spoke briefly on how the Spelman are feeling unrecognized. I was interested in conservation work. Does racism or white supremacy ever interact with them? Yes. Not on an individual level particularly. Both of them in conservation are more open minded and more progressive and more sensitive to difficulties. But systemically, yes. So for example, part of my fellowship at the National Gallery includes a long term research project. And at this time I was trying to have a focus on African American assemblage artists. And one of the first things you do when you start a research project is a literature review. To see what other institutions have written about that work. Or if another conservator has treated it and written a paper on treating it. They found something interesting. And one of the artists that I started with is Betty Sarr. And when I went to Google Scholar to start my literature review and I put her name and art conservation. I got zero results. Nothing. And so I don't have the background information of other people having treated them before. And knowing what other people have found or what other people have done. Because it just doesn't exist. But if I look up Joseph Cornell who makes works that are similar to Betty Sarr. And she was inspired by his. He makes Cornell boxes what they're called. So they're like little shadow boxes for his art. And it's all found materials and she has incorporated that into her work as well. I think I had at least 15 results of papers written on his work. And so then I started going through some of the art history databases that I use. And one of the databases in Betty Sarr's section simply had a link that said see Joseph Cornell. And so it's difficult to find information and build off that information from our project because it's not there. It hasn't been done yet. And it's not that it was purposely done. It just wasn't something that was thought of at the time that it was important. It was getting that value to be written about. There's also a cultural competency. Did you talk about radio writing? I haven't talked about radio writing. We'll talk about lunch. Oh yes. It's a lunchtime policy. And I just want to maybe add something to what you were saying about Sarr too. Now that her archives are going to be housed at the Getty Research Center in Los Angeles, I think that I'm hoping that there are going to be opportunities for you to continue the work that you're doing on her work there and that there are other opportunities through the many retrospective exhibitions that have been staged of her work recently in New York and LA and other places in New York. So I'm planning to visit the archives and go through. She gave her entire artist archives to the Getty. And so I would like to go through the archives and see what information I can extract from it. And then she is still living. So I would love to do an artist interview with her and ask her about her works, how she envisions the care for her works, how she envisions the life of her works, while we still can because she is in her 80s. She spent 93 going on other films. But she's 110%. Yeah, a lot of subtracting some numbers. But gather that information while we still have access to Betty now instead of having to ask her daughter and get it secondhand. And yeah, we just have to schedule everything. We are too. All right, so please let's raise our hands and thank our presenters. And we're now going to a break for lunch. I'm just outside of the doors where Rachel and Lauren are standing. We have lunch for you. So please help yourselves and then come back and this is a working lunch. Our next panel for the working lunch is entitled Becoming an Art Conservator. And we're also having the Emerging Conservation Professionals Network Overview as well. So this will be a conversation that takes place between Shannon Brogdon-Grantham, LaStarsha McGarrity and Efranette Brown, who is an alumna of Spellman College of Class of 2009 and a conservation technician from Emory Libraries. They're going to share their personal journeys into the field of art conservation. I think you'll hear some of those behind the scenes stories about certain objects that each of the conservators have had to work with. Following the lunchtime panel, Caitlin Wright, who is the Atlanta Regional Liaison of the Emerging Conservation Professionals Network, will share opportunities to get involved in the ECPN, which is an organization that assists emerging conservation professionals entering or thinking about entering the field of conservation with the transition from pre-programmed candidacy to graduate school and through to early career stages. So please go on and get something to eat and we'll resume here. I also want to just mention quickly that we do have a hard stop at 12.45. So we just want to be mindful of the next hour and 20 minutes. And we look forward to continuing the conversation. Thank you very much. Good afternoon, everyone. Lunchtime panel entitled Becoming an Art Conservator Emerging and with the Emerging Conservation Professionals Network Overview. I'm going to begin by actually reading the biographies of our presenters I figured maybe some of you haven't had a chance to actually read them yourselves. LaStarsha D. McGarrity is the Andrew W. Mellon Fellow in Objects Conservation at the National Gallery of Art. She received her BA in Art with a minor in Chemistry from Texas Southern University in Houston, Texas. A renowned HBCU and I just have to give a shout out to her school spirit. And an MA and a Certificate in Advanced Study in Art Conservation from the Garmin Art Conservation Department at SUNY Buffalo State College in Buffalo, New York. Her program experiences included Texas Southern University, the Cleveland Museum of Art, the Smithsonian's National Museum of African American History and Culture, and the Smithsonian's National Museum of Art. Her graduate internships were completed at the Mississippi Civil Rights Museum and the Museum of Mississippi History, the Brooklyn Museum, the St. Louis Art Museum, and the Academy of Motion Pictures Museum. Right? Okay. Efrenette Brown, who is an alumna of Spellman College, the class of 2009, is a conservation technician at the Emory Libraries here in Atlanta, Georgia. She was introduced to conservation at the Georgia Archives in 2014. Since that introduction, she has grown her skills and knowledge through hands-on training, meetings and workshops, and meetings and workshop attendance, excuse me, and an internship with the Atlanta Art Conservation Center. Efrenette is continuously engaged and challenged by the work that crosses her bench and actively seeks opportunities for further learning and growth. She holds an MLIS from the University of Alabama to Scalusa and is a 2009 Spellman College graduate, as I said before. Shannon Brogdon-Grantham, who's also from the class of 2009, and I have to give a shout-out again to Rachel Brown, who's, I think, outside, but Rachel is the class of 2010, so there are some friends here in the room and we're happy that they're here together and have all come together for the sake of art conservation. Shannon is the Photographs and Paper Conservator at the Smithsonian Museum Conservation Institute. She's a graduate of the Winterthur University of Delaware program in art conservation, where she focused on photograph conservation and had minor concentrations in paper and preventative conservation. She holds a BA in art from Spellman College. Prior to her current position, Shannon was a Smithsonian Institution postgraduate fellow in the conservation of museum collections and was based at the Hirshhorn Museum and Sculpture Garden. Shannon has held internships at the Center for Creative Photography, Paul Messier, LLC, Conservation of Photographs and Works on Paper at the National Museum of the American Indian and National Museum of African Art, Southern Art Conservation, LLC, the Robert W. Woodruff Library here at the Atlanta University Center and Emory University, Michael C. Carlos Museum. Shannon also has performed collection surveys and assessments of photographs and paper-based collections for the Longwood Gardens Archive and the Spellman College Archive. She is active in her professional organizations and is a member of the American Institute of Conservation and the Washington Conservation Guild. I'm going to introduce Caitlin Wright, who's the Andrew W. Mellon Fellow in Objects Conservation at the Carlos Museum here in Atlanta and the regional liaison for the Emerging Conservation Professionals Network when she comes to join us after the conversation that is about to begin. Thank you. I will start the discussion. Rachel asked us to submit for this lunchtime panel an image. She's recently been to a panel where the panelists have been in an image that was important to them in some way and so she asked us to submit images that we felt were important and meaningful in our careers. So I'll start with my image, which is in the top left-hand corner there. So that image was taken in the summer of 2015. I was coming to the end of my time as a graduate student at the Winniter University of Delaware Programming Art Conservation and I think this was in June and I finished in August and the reason I selected that image is because it was truly a full circle moment for me. So when I, as I mentioned before, when I was an undergrad, participated in the Arts and Humanities Summer Institute at Delaware and I also worked at the Robert W. Woodruff Library on a photographic preservation project. And so this workshop that I'm, this group of students I'm working with were part of round three of the funding that supported that initial photograph preservation project that I had worked on as an undergrad program. And so for me, that was the moment where the student becomes the teacher and I never, I mean I could have never imagined that I would ever be in a position to share my knowledge in that way and so for me, going back and being able to teach the students that are current undergrad students that would be going off to their universities and libraries and working with collections to teach them all about photographic preservation and materials and makeup photographs, it was really transformative to me because someone had done that for me and so I felt like that was the moment when I really understand the potential of impact that I could have in the profession and how I could get back to the profession, especially giving back to HBC students. And so I selected that image because in the image we have a group of students, one from Solomon, one from Hampton, one from Tuskegee and the two from Tuskegee and the Deborah Hess Norris, who is one of my professors from grad school looking at these photographic albums and the students had just learned about the materials in photographic, the makeup photographs and how to identify photographic processes based upon looking at them under magnification and so we were having them look at these albums and helping them identify the photographic processes so that was the moment where I really felt like okay, now I'm actually becoming a professional and it felt like a huge transformation for me because as we mentioned earlier this can be a long road and you just never know where you're going to end up and so I'm very grateful that I had that opportunity. My image is of the bottom corner here. I selected one from my time at Texas Southern so as I mentioned earlier, one of our former presidents had some of the murals painted over and brought in evergreen architectural arts to do a survey of all the murals on campus and really understanding the condition they were in and the ones that were in the worst condition were selected for treatment particularly in the historic building all the construction work that happened to that building to renovate it and the work for the modern way that we function in office buildings was done in a way that wasn't always the nicest to the artworks that were on the walls so things that were happening on the walls on the opposite side sometimes they weren't thinking about that there was art on the other side so they caused some losses to the wall itself and damages to the camera so after referring to myself as their intern they asked me to be the intern and I was able to work on a mural that didn't really need a lot of conservation but needed some and so I got to work on this mural and then one on the opposite side I got the same student who's come at Oliver he was the Texas artist laureate in 2016 and is still the only American to have designed for her meds so he designs some of their scarves they tend to be of Texas wildlife and flowers so it's going to be beautiful that's where I'm at next right and so for me this was like my first real conservation experience my first time to try it out and see if that was right for me and it felt very like beginning of something and it was very much I felt more connected to my campus in that way because I love Texas loving very much but I was very busy while I was there so I didn't really get to participate in campus life and really connect that way but being able to physically care for the campus and all the history of the students who'd come before me really helped me feel like my campus was my campus because I wasn't able to connect with it I'm even out of Brown as data I work at Emory Libraries and my path is very different from the ladies beside me I'm a conservation technician and I came through with being vis-trained I'm still currently being vis-trained so the image that you see is actually from like last month I'm treating a publication from the African American collection at the Rose Library called the rare books in manuscript library at Emory and I chose this image just because it's a current representation one of what I enjoy doing which is repair that is my hand I'm getting paced out of a little tray and repairing the binding of the publication so that it can be re-sewn and still function and be used a big part of my job is taking things that have been either collected or used as I work on the cycling collection at the library as well and still make them useful and I feel like coming into conservation from a digital science and also from a library science it's very important that people realize that taking care of the physical item is also important to how patrons interact or future generations interact with something even if something as a publication from a black community I believe in Detroit and they have a club world most entitled to their publication for the community so it had different coutillion photos who's coming and going but then that particular community and I really like working on the African American collection it's because a lot of institutions that either collect from black life often don't feel like it's relevant to preserve or to re-house those collections and I think it's very rewarding to work for an institution that believes that all collections should be preserved into the stars so this exists Is that a question? Is there any questions? Thoughts? I have a student asking how to make the most of your experiences recognize that you might not always be able to get into you know like a huge racial and maybe your work how can you firm that or send it in your applications to make that work for you? I have to say so when I started out of course I had my first pre-program experience was in a museum setting but when I moved to a region of the country that has even fewer conservators than there are here I was working with the conservator of private practice and just trying to take advantage of every single opportunity to learn something whether it be color matching or she had these clocks that she had been working on that were damaged in Hurricane Katrina and so I didn't do any of the treatment on the clocks but I learned all about in-painting and how she was selecting the materials to do the in-painting on them so they could be aesthetically compensated to give it back to the collection that they belong to so I would say just taking advantage of as much opportunities as you can to learn something new if there's a talk or some sort of event going on in your city where there's going to be conservators or even collections management taking advantage of what I call conservation adjacent opportunities can help too because working with collections is such a specialized field whether you're a registrar or a curator or a collections manager or a conservator you name it and so having knowledge about how all of those intersect in collections work can be helpful so that's what I would suggest is just taking advantage of as much as you can to learn something new and then I would also say to in your application materials mention that it was a smaller place and that you had to wear multiple hats because the National Gallery of Art was a large institution so I don't really get the opportunity to do a preventive conservation because they have a preventive conservation department so that's someone else's job but when I was at the Mississippi Museum of Civil Rights they have one in-service so anything that could be conservation related falls to her so she was doing treatment and monitoring the environment and doing the integrated management and doing rehousing so all of those things were conservation related and I would just say to mention that the materials that I was the conservation technician for this institution and all of my duties and I did all of these different things and figuring out how to balance the time to do all of that while still getting keeping up the treatment schedule to continue to look also outside of your institution if you have the time to see Shannon was saying what is adjacent so saying you are working in our conservation lab at one institution but there might be another institution that does something similar see if you're just talking say one is paid and one is live paid see if you are able to adjust your schedule at one location so that you have one day a week or maybe two days a week to work at another institution that just bolsters either what you are doing or maybe try something new I know that when I was working at the archives I was able to do a one day a week internship at the conservation center and so just knowing that I did have a full time job and they were able to just make space for me that I was actually learning and expanding my skills and things like that so it doesn't necessarily if you're able you can also look outside your institution to something adjacent and if everyone knows that you are working towards something they can do as best they can so they are able to grow I wouldn't say for consumers specifically but I would say just start up by introducing yourself and saying why you're reaching out to them so I would sort of write like one generic email and make edits but I would have like this thing that I can easily copy and paste in and say I'm in this area I'm interested in conservation this is what I've already done and then information about what I know about their institution or their business of saying I know you typically work on this material that's something that I haven't done before I would like to have more experience with and you know thank you for your time please contact me back in this email or my cell phone and sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't it just depends on the person when I was in San Antonio I reached out to every conservator within a 50 mile radius and pretty much all of them said they did not have the time or the resources to allow me to come into their workspace and work as well but they some of them would try because I had mentioned that I was interested in that I'd already had some experience they would try to connect me to other people whose content information is not as easily found or who they thought might be a better fit for what I was hoping to do or they would just suggest or they would say well keep your resume on file if I have a big enough project then I will give you a call where there was one with mainly the outdoor sculpture and you can't really do that in the winters that's more of a spring to fall at most depending on where you are in a country type of activity so he was like if you're still available in the summer I won't take you on in the summers but not right now and because I put that I already had some experience he felt comfortable saying I'll teach you what you need to know for this specific thing but I know that you already have some experience so I'm not asking him always to I would say echo exactly what Lestarcha said you know just putting your name out there sometimes can make a difference at the Smithsonian we get a lot of inquiries I try to respond to every single one because I know how important it is to hear something back even if it's not positive but just making sure that you are proactive and you know just step out of your information and you never know who you're going to get and even if they can't take you on as an intern maybe they can give you a tour or maybe you know maybe if they're having some event or something like that you can go there's a number of ways I think it can be tough to break down that initial barrier but just keep trying and putting out those feelings I would say see if you have like local groups like I know ECPN is going to talk about like local groups that are just interested in what you're interested in usually the groups will do the leg work so they'll get you in the space and then once you're in the space you can have like a little face to face with someone on staff or things like that that's where the relationship starts like this is what I'm interested in you know if you have five minutes ten minutes you know I would like to sit down with you or like please kind of have your card so I can you know contact with you in the future and usually those particular face to face interactions do lead to then remembering you when your name comes to their email or things like that and that's different than cold calling but you know if you have a group that kind of gets you in the door that kind of circumvests the cold calls but to ask for opportunities later which of you have a I hope this isn't an off topic but a favorite object that you have worked on or do you have an object that you really really really want to work on so Lyskarsha you talked about Denysar's work the research project that you've had and I'm just curious if there are works in collections that you're aware of or certain kinds of objects, photographs works on paper 3D works that you would like to get your hands on to be able to think in a different way about the direction of the conservation in the work that you do there's a specific object that I would want to treat I would say there's a type I'm very interested in our more history pieces but I really love being able to be part of an object's story and being part of the history that it's acting as witness to so when I was at African American History and Culture a lot of the pieces were very unusual because of the piece itself but because of what story was associated with it and it was the smallest thing I've treated so hard but it was just a penny and a penny that seems valueless to all of us and it was dirty and disgusting looking but once I started understanding the piece I found out that it was a penny that it survived also race riots and all the material on it were from the fires and when this family left told so because all of their property was destroyed they took what they could find and one of the things they could find was that penny and so they carried it with them to their new home and then held on to it long enough to give it to the museum and that to me was so meaningful because you have nothing left and you have to go back from your home and keep this one kind of worthless thing and it acted as a witness to something that people often question if it happened but if you can say well there's this penny we have evidence then that to me is something that I would like to continue in my career of treating things that have that story to tell or a story to tell how do you know that story do you have anything that you want to work on or have to work on so I have in my career at the Smithsonian had an opportunity to work a lot with the National Museum of African American History and Culture and so I was there as a fellow at the Hirshhorn right before the Museum opened and because there's so few conservators and photo conservators at the Smithsonian I was asked to work on these photographs that were being selected to go in a inaugural exhibition and so that was my first time really working with the collection and ever since then I've taken every single opportunity when they reach out to me and say we have this thing before they can even finish their sentence I'm like yes I will work on that because it's not only meaningful to them to have it preserved but it's meaningful to me because it's our heritage it's my heritage and so just looking at the multitude of materials that they have in the collections ranging from jet magazines that my grandmother had stacks of those in her spare bedroom that she tossed way before the Museum opened I'm like we could have donated those to the Museum you know that type of thing to these precious photographs 19th century photographs of unknown African American sitters dressed in their finest and it ranges the gamut and as much as possible I try to work on that collection even if it's just a consult with them thinking of acquiring or actually doing conservation treatment so those are my favorite materials to work on I'll say the same keep it on theme actually when I was employed at the archives the Auburn Avenue Research Library had a green book that is now on display at the African American and Culture Museum and I was one of the first items that I treated and repaired so at the time when I was given the assignment it was just around the mill work to do at the bench I did not know that it was going to be on display at the History Museum so I will say that that my treatment was like I said it was very new luckily I didn't have to do too much to it it was just guarding the fold and filling in fields but to see it on display and knowing something that I had touched and that I had repaired so that it prepared it to be on display so that other people can see it which is mind blowing and I actually got a chance last year like in the museum in the undisclosed it was very surreal I did that and other people will see it so yes I do think gravitating towards materials that are of historic nature especially like this black life in general it's just really important to me because it's so rewarding to see your work to see that someone else gets to see it and also use it in the archive that's the best feeling to see it elevated these things that we often see in this commonplace I always refer to it in the jet magazine because I think that was my childhood was pouring through jet magazines it's just like to see something like that on view at a museum never would imagine in a million years that something like that so commonplace but so important in our culture would be presented as a precious item and millions of people flocked to that museum they non-stop sold out it's free to get in the museum but of course you have to reserve tickets in advance to go and since the museum opened they had a hard time being sold out of tickets they crashed the website the website it's a branch of Ticketmaster was doing the tickets they crashed that company's website I have a question about your review today work so is it equally part of research and the techniques and science behind who's serving your work or is it what is the perfect date would involve me sitting down in the bench with something that I've either done that I'm currently doing research on or treating preparing for exhibition or whatever at MCI my work is more research driven so a lot of the time I am doing research writing publications that type of thing based on the work that I've either done analysis on with my science colleagues or done treatment on but a lot of my day to day like the daily thing like what I did when I was at work on Wednesday was following up on emails and the less exciting administrative stuff that I really wish I could push off to someone else but in a perfect world that is what you would be doing is working with objects and being able to tell their story I'd say my day I'm a fellow at the gallery in the structure of our lab I'm like a junior staff member so my day does tend to be a lot more object focused which I find really fortunate because a lot of the meetings have nothing to do with me so I don't have to go so I I've been working on a Donald Judd box so there are these cadmium red boxes that sit on the floor they sit directly on the floor with no protection around them from the public because that's the artist intent so they tend to get interacted with a lot I have to put it nicely so there's a lot of scuffs and dings and scratches on the piece but it's going to go to another museum to be part of a retrospective of his work so the folk of my time recently have been treating that and talking with the art hackers about how it's going to be packed what materials are already in the box because the gallery tries to reuse all of its crates because they're expensive and it's very wasteful to throw them away so they were saying figuring out what box it could go in what materials we wouldn't want near it also responding to things in the gallery so visitors love interacting with things that they're not supposed to so there's a lot of the guards saying that something's happened and then going out and responding to what happened it's something that is minor and we can deal with while the gallery is open or it needs to be pulled from the exhibit or dealt with when there's no public or the gallery has to be blocked off my day is usually in my bench because I work for a library the items that come across my bench are for use so I repair circulating collection and what that means like anything that's in the library that's accessible to student staff or faculty so a lot of broken spines or broken covers things of that nature I also work on the rare collection so rare books with the same issues a lot of enclosures preventive conservation was mentioned enclosures is a big part of that of just housing an item so that the human contact lessons I do a lot of repair work as far as just if a publication has been stapled staples are rusty I remove them and then I just sew them back so that they're still functional but they're no longer in contact with something that could harm me further some bench work is a lot of my pay personally for me after I'm finished with school I'd like to start up my own small art gallery in my community so I was wondering like gaining like a basic skill set and like art conservation would that be something I should like look into so I can at least have like the basic knowledge from an ultimately start my stuff up and have to handle art I would say yes definitely even if it's just a basic understanding of materials kind of across generally condition issues that are common with different types of materials I mean depending on the type of gallery that like if you want to do more paintings and you really want to learn about paintings and how they're hung and the types of frames that people can use for them but if you're doing works of art on paper you'd want to learn about the vulnerabilities of paper and I'm sure in the gallery space not everything will always be on view but just like how that stuff should be stored and you don't necessarily have to do all of those things you can work with a private researcher to help guide you on that but just having a basic knowledge is always useful because you can look at something and say that doesn't look right maybe I should have somebody come and start I just keep the ARC website which is cultural heritage for your business you can put it here it will tell you what consumers are associated with ARC in that area so then you can have them on files sold to them or if someone has purchased something from you and they can stand in their home you can say well these are the consumers in the area of contact you treated so that we can just have that resource on us other resources on the website there's a conservation wiki which will give you the basics of the material or things you might see so it'll say if you're seeing a white haze on this this could be a balloon caused by this so you at least know what to tell the consumers so they know what to expect I don't know if it's something white and it's the ISM dot org they just changed the website so it's cultural heritage dot org there's a lot of useful things they have handouts your own experiences how you formed your work and what you found that maybe like things that you've been able to bring to the field that maybe your peers I would say in general gentlemen what they're being particularly in our jazz a lot of issues are what something's being stored or if they're made of two things that don't necessarily get along so let's think about what is my jewelry box made of because all of my silver lives in this jewelry box for the most of its life so I don't get to wear much of my jewelry but isn't in a safe environment so I think about what is in there and it makes me store them better so the last one and I can give them away to other people at times because I'm still just as fun once I do try to when I admit things make my stitches more easily reversible so I can speak it later I've done too tight stitching before I've been very mad at how to do it and it does make me more caring of people and their objects because it's always so nice to see the evidence of the human connection to a piece and so seeing that in my work and then realizing that everyone's objects are meaningful to them and it's meaningful to me that's made me a lot softer to what people are saving or are asking me about or like one of my uncles kept asking me about this ceramic bowl that he got from Target like 10 years ago and had dropped it and broke it and he was like well how do I put it back together with a piece of it and I'm just like go and buy another bowl I didn't know what it was and then it was like oh that was a bowl that one of his grandkids had gotten for him and I was like oh well that's what he asked me about it it's because you want to keep that specific bowl and that specialty so then over Christmas I was able to put it back together with a little kootu with a piece of it too and so that way he could have that bowl because I didn't think it was important because I was like it's just a tiny bowl but I was like oh wow that's important to you because of his context and I was able to care for it for him by stepping outside of my own it just came from Target bias and understanding that it's relevant things that bring to the field I would say cultural conflict and it's not to say that anyone has failed it's not your culture it's just something that doesn't click where when I was at African American History and Culture one of the conservators was treating radio Raheem's radio and one of the stickers was kind of hanging off and she was like what was the sticker original does it need to go back on and I was like what do you mean the original yes that sticker didn't belong with Raheem and she was like well how do you know I was like because it's radio Raheem's she was like who? and I was like radio Raheem she was like we no not joint like oh I was like okay you got homework now like you need to go home and watch the movie the right way if your grandchildren tells them they can't be in the room there's a lot of cuffing but like you have a seat do the right thing and like you need to watch the movie and then she was like well I think this is battery powered do you know what kind of battery smell is this 20d battery you need to watch the movie because you don't have the context you've never seen it and it didn't occur to you to see it because it wasn't something that you felt related to you but as soon as I thought I was like yeah it's radio Raheem's movie and she was like oh there's inscriptions on the back who are these people and I was like that's Spike Lee after that was this person and I was like Raheem lives forever and I was like yeah cause he dies in the movie it's already boiling but like you gotta watch the movie but she was like you know she's 60 something old white woman that isn't her forte for things to watch so she thankfully went home and like watched it that weekend and understood the piece better but if she hadn't ever treated that piece I don't think she would ever watch it I mean just hopefully it is the answer to your question but I would say like in conservation a lot of like pest management and environment control is a big part of it and once the more I got into conservation I just realized like different ways you can keep pests out of your home and how to like manage those things like I said this is so weird but like the aspect of how light sometimes light draws insects to your home is something I've never really thought about so I used to have turn my light off by myself I stopped doing that and I actually saw what activities like outside books, entry into your home, things like that also just like what your environment is like pest don't like colder environments I do keep my home a little bit colder I like all year round and again I have seen like not to say I have a comfortable life but we do live in Atlanta we do live in the south so I was just kind of like saying as far as my work environment what I brought home as far as like I feel like it's very important just to know that you are enough like whoever you are you know everything that you bring your EEOC procedures, your anxieties like your knowledge and things like that you bring that to work every day I feel like you should only bring your whole self to work and you don't know what being yourself will do for people around you and also how you interpret different things so never feel like you don't have an experience that can contribute to what you do now previously as I said my path to conservation was very different but I was able to manage people in previous positions and that influences how right now I do student training within the conservation lab because I have that experience of knowing how to manage people so even though it's not conservation directly conservation related it is something that was a skill that I bring to my work every day so I was saying you are enough like your whole self is enough to bring to work with you every day so I think for me I like to collect of course I have a lot of photographs but I've been kind of taking the charge of keeping family photographs and photo albums and that type of thing so of course I'm definitely much more aware of what these objects are and why they are important but how to make them accessible to other family members that might want to have some images from them so sharing digital files of things or making scans and printing them out and doing that as well as how I display works part of my own home selecting proper framing materials and matte materials and making sure that I typically don't cut my own mats for stuff at home but knowing when I go to the art store to say I want this type of mat this particular one, this particular brand because of these reasons knowing that and then echoing exactly what I just said about bringing your whole self like that is something that it took me a while to I think being in this job that I'm now I feel that confidence but before coming out of school and like I wasn't necessarily in the best environment or I didn't necessarily feel like it was the most inclusive environment it was really hard and I reached this point where I was I wasn't sure if I was even doing the right thing anymore but it took leaning on my friends and colleagues who look like me and friends and colleagues who knew me before I started grad school having that support and having that network and remembering that you are enough whether or not you go into conservation or whatever field you go into you might end up being the only brown person in the room and recognizing that if you are that's okay you have a lot to offer and you have a lot to bring to that table whether or not someone wants to hear your voice you make your voice heard what you have to say is valuable what you're doing at home people can be doing what would you recommend to any black family just any person who wants to start preserving their legacies their personal legacies you can get in the museum environment everything is supposed to be pristine and temperature and relative humidity is supposed to be within these parameters and there's not supposed to be any light exposure blah blah blah blah but in your home you want to enjoy these things too so if you have if there's something that's really special to you like a photograph of your great-grandmother that's the only photograph that y'all have of her and it's been on display for however many years maybe making a digital facsimile of that image and framing that and then when there's some sort of family gathering bringing the original out to share with the family small changes but I'm always an advocate for people living with their collections I sometimes I have a lecture to a group of emerging African art collectors and that's the one question they always ask me is like well how can I balance the preservation of this but I still want to you know I just spent all this money on this thing I'm going to live with it there's only so much you can do but if you have something that's displayed in a room that gets a lot of sunlight maybe moving it out of the area where it's getting a direct sun into an area where it's not going to be a direct sun little things like that I'm storing things to try to get the best quality material that you can there's always going to be budgetary restraints and archival material that's expensive but just choosing the best that you can within your budget so a lot of my family's photographs are in archaic or wider sleeves that are meant to hold photographs or like playing cards if they're the right size because plastic is supposed to be a better quality but we can still see them and then people can come and flip through our photographs without having to handle each one they're not that expensive I think you can get a box of $50 for like $10 and then I'll try to wait until back to school time and get them on sale so that way we can get a budget then for a lot cheaper we can share it with one of our family so people can keep it in better materials because it's always sad when you try to do the right thing store it away from the light interaction and then find out that the way you store it is actually looking at the store so just try to choose better materials don't store things in the basement for that yes first place if you have like a linen closet and you have like a small box of things you can store them there with your towels because towels will absorb moisture and that's often a good place to keep them it's more so to your work environment I've been thinking a lot about news around preparators lately and just like all the dangers and just how they're treated in terms of their work and so it made me kind of think about how you all are treated outside of your own labs and departments what are your interactions like with curators or exhibition coordinators what do you interact with the most how do you like to be treated and what are some issues that you may have run up against from other people and other departments that you feel like upcoming conservators would be interested in knowing as they enter the workplace I have to say in my work because I work at a research facility which I like to think of as this kind of neutral place I don't work for one particular museum so a lot of times I'm interacting with someone different at each one so I might in one museum interact with the curator or another interact with the collections manager sometimes it can be difficult because there's the museums every place has its own institutional politics and so navigating that can be challenging sometimes I found that when I was first starting in my job I just really tried to understand exactly what it is that they wanted me to do and or what it is that they were trying to achieve in the exhibition they wanted to display something in a certain way but maybe the artifact can't really handle that letting them have their tell me what they want and then trying to find a solution that would kind of split the difference it's not going to harm the object but it's going to allow them to have the display that they want to have so that's just one thing because a lot of times the rifts in conservation come up with and or if something is even stable enough to go on view and so there was one artifact that I had to treat and it had this very large orange stain on it that I knew was a chemical stain that there's nothing I could do about it if it went on view it would get worse potentially and so I talked to the curator and I explained to him I was like this piece is very important to your show is there some way to have an alternate piece that will still tell the same story or is there a way that we can make a facsimile of this piece so this doesn't go on view because if it does it could get worse and once I explained that to him he was like oh no we can take this one out and we can find something else so I think just being able to communicate your concerns or whatever it is you're trying to say effectively after you really understood what they wanted to tell at the gallery I tend to handle because they are always letting us know if someone's interacting with something or if they feel like a piece has changed because they spend the most time with the works and so they are an amazing source of institutional knowledge and they often find that they have pieces of art and if they look at their fate they'll walk out and say oh there's a thing there that most often gets to see it as often as they do they'll come tell me oh this is the damage and then we can go there and see has it been damaged and if it has been is it something that we need to take care of now or is it okay behind that will probably be the curators they may want to go on a conservation and they have to they have a large thing in what's happening so they come down to visit the works often throughout the treatment to kind of work with us to see what exactly they were trying to achieve and what we're able to achieve say issues that I run into in the gallery I'm the first black objects conservator to be there so it was a struggle for people to understand that I was a conservator and that I was supposed to be doing that where even for orientation like they almost sent me to the wrong room because our guard force is predominantly black and when I showed up to say like I'm here for only orientation and the guards are down there I was like okay but that's nice like I'm not here for guard training and we're just like oh oh you're the people and I was like yeah surprise so it was like hard to get people to understand that and then as I was meeting people in different departments they kept just being like no I just like to hang out down there so that was a struggle to get people to recognize that other people work in conservations but beyond that I found that although the words of the environment in the gallery would be difficult because it is kind of staunchy and old people in the economy it is we look at our demographics we have old guys named Bill that's our demographic so I was worried that that would like carry into the staff I would face problems with that but everyone seemed to be really excited once I got things to understand like the people and a lot of people were very welcoming and the people that weren't hard just to be quick my work space is very collaborative because like I said the items we treat for use of some sort so either the head of the collection or the curator of that collection I'm really bad at the titles because everyone has a lot of libraries and a lot of different levels of management but we usually come in as just an open discussion of ok this is what you want this is what we can do how about we be in the middle as Shannon was saying it starts with purpose that you want it to have but also it's not worse for where it's you know to finish as far as how I'm being treated I love my work environment I am the only black person in my department but it very rarely comes up as a sticky point in any way and that's kind of what I meant to bring your whole stuff to work as well just because I am a black person in a not really white environment that's a really mean thing we find common grounds we also have a lot of discussions about where experience growing up is different from the women in my lab and that's also a age gap there's another way of diversity and things like that I feel very well I'm just also just don't be afraid to have hard conversations with a co-worker because oftentimes they'll be informed by your point of view and you probably start something from their point of view I'm also the only black consumer at this society working with people who don't look like you and have that age most of my colleagues at HCI there's three conservators who've been there for 30 years and they started there when I was born at first I thought it was going to be tough working with them but they welcomed me with open arms we're sharing your experience we're really touching on topics that are so important for our students and our faculty and our invited guests to know about with regards to this field and how it is changing and it is being changed by the work that you are doing we're so thankful for the time that you spent with us today I'd like to now invite Caitlin Wright to join us here Caitlin is an Andrew W. Mellon Fellow in Objects Conservation at the Carlos Museum and the Atlanta Regional Liaison of the Emerging Conservation Professionals Network and I should say she's the Andrew W. Mellon Advanced Fellow in Objects Conservation at the Carlos Museum she recently graduated from the Garmin Art Conservation Department at SUNY Buffalo State College and she was a classmate of the Starshas she completed internships at the Metropolitan Museum of Art the Athenian Agora Excavations and the Institute for Aegean Prehistory Study Center East Crete Caitlin earned her BA in Art History from the George Washington University in Washington, DC completing pre-programmed internships at the Hirschhorn Museum and the Smithsonian Castle thank you so much I do have to say while I was at the Hirschhorn I was with Shannon and she was a mentor of mine so it's great to see her here in a small world Thanks Thanks to the ECPN and the AUC Planning Committee for giving ECPN the opportunity to share the activities that we've been doing over the past year and also of course thank you again to our speakers for contributing to today's program and sharing their stories and having these incredibly important meaningful and much needed conversations in our field so first I'm just going to give a brief introduction to what ECPN is in general and then speak to more of Atlanta area and how you can get involved so ECPN is a network within the American Institute for Conservation that maintains the forum and network for AIC members who are entering the field of conservation this includes undergraduate students pre-program individuals graduate students, recent graduates and early career professionals so a mix of people to communicate on behalf of and support the inclusion of emerging professionals within AIC by enhancing ways to serve members who are just entering the field of conservation and help members as they transition from student to conservation professional the community provides educational and professional development opportunities for emerging conservation professionals in addition to fostering communication between emerging and experienced conservation professionals so I'm just going to bring your attention to some resources on the internet that can be helpful ECPN has a website on the AIC website that centralizes information about ECPN and the committee including the networks history and past committee members and details the networks programming and resources and all the different resources you see here are included on the website ECPN also has an online community that provides space for ECPs to share resources seek information and recommendations and learn about exciting opportunities in the field including lectures, potential fellowships block posts and ECPN programming the general ECPN community is open to everyone both emerging and established conservation professionals including non-AIC members and like I think LaStarsha mentioned before you can create an account on the AIC website and be able to post without actually having to pay for a membership to AIC and then the AIC wiki was also mentioned before and ECPN has a sub-site on this wiki page additional content can be added at any time so check back in to see new content new content was recently added for conservation on social media resources for emerging conservation professionals and getting started in conservation science and it also offers a myriad of resources on starting up in conservation so choosing a specialty work on resumes and CVs the portfolio presenting talks and posters and other things like that so if you're interested be sure to check that out ECPN has a strong social media presence so they're active on Facebook with almost 6,000 members so you can like go to the website and get connected that way there's people posting all the time about different opportunities and events and it's a good place to find information but also casually ask questions to the larger conservation community so ECPN also holds two webinars each year through the go-to webinar platform a program that enables audience members to engage with the presenters and ask questions in real time while ECPN strives to tackle subjects that speak to the personal growth and career development of emerging conservation professionals at any stage the subject matter is sometimes geared specifically to free program candidates for graduate students or postgraduate students so it's always varied and upcoming webinars are advertised via email Facebook posts and announcements on the AIC blog here's the most recent webinar which was hosted by Anishagota and Leslie Gatt on navigating the workplace and harnessing community as an emerging conservation professional you can check out this webinar and all the webinar content on the AIC YouTube channel which brings me to more information about the YouTube channel the officers have compiled their favorite conservation related videos and created a list so you can go see that video content on their YouTube page which as you can see offers a range from different museums or different professionals in the field in the liaison program it continues to grow and foster a supportive community for ECPs there are four groups regional liaisons, graduate school liaisons and specialty group liaisons as well as committee and network liaisons so the new initiative of the specialty group liaison highlight series especially group liaisons are invited to answer a few questions about their specialty in a short post on the online member community so you can check that out on the ECPN online community this information can be found on the programs on the ECPN sub-site under programs including liaisons names, position, contact information and vacancies so this is a map of where each regional liaison is located and there are 17 we're always looking to expand to different locations and highlights as in what we do here with the Atlanta ECPN group can include lab tours resume reviews and portfolio days museum tours given by fellow ECPs discussion sessions and social events which are all organized by the regional liaisons like myself so if you're interested in joining all you have to do is give me your email address and I'll add you to that list and then you'll get updates about what's going on in the Atlanta area you don't necessarily have to be entering conservation, you can be just in the museum profession and want to join these events and come see lab tours it's a really great opportunity to meet people in the Atlanta area so I have a card and you can come get it for me if you want there are also graduate school liaisons for each of the conservation and historic preservation programs that the Sarsha mentioned earlier in the United States and Canada and they're there to feel questions about the application process for each of those programs because they're a little different as we've talked about in addition to regional and program related liaisons there are also 10 for each specialty group which are listed on the left and 7 committee and network liaisons which are listed on the right these liaisons are more interfacing and geared towards the internal AIC let's see where it was there I was going to talk about mentorship programs that ECPN is involved with so as of January 2019 ECPN and the Conservatives in Private Practice CIPP a mentorship program for emerging conservation professionals who have recently started or plan to start a private practice and then the other mentorship program is between ECPN and the HBCU mentorship program and it's in its third iteration this program connects undergraduate students or recent graduates who have participated in Winters tip C which involves the Tuskegee diorama preservation project HBCU Summoner Teachers Institute and Technical Art History programs with emerging conservation professionals who have volunteered to serve as mentors so the goal of the program is to pair students with mentors who can provide guidance as they consider potential career paths and conservation museum studies or related fields and the mentors will be able to speak with their mentees about long term professional goals help them achieve short term goals and connect them with resources ECPN Chair Eve Mayberger if you're interested in learning more about their mentorship programs she can be reached I think there are cards out on the table along with those other resources that were mentioned before and you can contact her through that email address so how to get involved locally you can follow ECPN on the AIC member community at Facebook you can watch the ECPN webinars and other content on the AIC YouTube channel sign up for the Atlanta list through me you can get involved in a local way by cross-registering for one of Renee Stein's classes Renee is the Chief Conservator at the Carlos Museum and she teaches issues in conservation of art and cultural property and technical art history you can learn more about cross-registration at the Atlanta Regional Council website and Renee is here and I'm sure she would welcome any questions about that if you're wondering about that and then also local to Atlanta is CERCA the Southeast Regional Conservation Association the major focus of CERCA is to educate caretakers of cultural property and communities about preservation as a ongoing responsibility as well as to raise awareness and support for conservation CERCA has an annual meeting which you can learn more about at their website as well as join it if you're interested so thank you so much to the AIC organizers and ECPN officers for organizing this event and please feel free to reach out at any time there might be out there for Caitlin or for any of the other conservators who are in the room fashion sign agent and right now I'm pretty sure there is pieces of Patrick Kelly's collection in one of my professors' closet in our apartment building city of the closet I was wondering how I could bring them to the importance of having those pieces in the room because I think about these things store it the best way change the storage and maybe have someone look at it and do a commission survey if they are not talk about something like why preservation of that maybe you can point them to some of the recent exhibitions that have been done on them I know the PMA so just using those as an example these collections have this material and we have it here how rare and special is that and maybe having a textile conservator for a day or something like that to talk to the students about the collection materials and how they would preserve them something like that I have one before we make our Exodus across the way so I wanted to ask and this is for everyone but one of the things that is very heartwarming for me and I think for all of us and it's really beautiful about the program is the way in which there's so many layers of of mentorship of knowledge of learning of experience when I look at all of you here the connections between Nettie and Shannon through Spelman College through also Rachel Brown their connections between you, Caitlin and you, LaStarsha from your own studies but then there's also a connection between you and Shannon there's also DC, I'm from Silver Springs so there's DC but I just wanted to ask if you could share other ways that either together or separately you've been engaged in networking because I look around the tables here today and I've been in this room I don't know probably I would say like five or ten times or different kinds of functions and it looks to me like you all actually have heated my suggestion to get to know one another at the tables and I really would hope that we can all leave here not just here because we're all going to leave here together and walk over to the Clark and Danny University Museum but to leave here with someone's car or email address or Instagram feeds we get to continue these conversations I don't know if there was a question I stay connected with these folks through email and social media we're friends on social media and we're friends on social media so yeah, so that's how I stay connected with people on that level people who are a little bit more senior email or senior at the conferences because we always have an annual meeting for the American student for conservation and that's kind of like a reunion for people who may have gone to grad school together and haven't seen each other since they graduated so that's how I do it okay and I guess another way to ask well this is the question is this a model for eCPN or for AIC in terms of thinking about the kinds of programs that you have throughout the year the way that you connect people who are like the students in this room who may be interested in pursuing a conservation career is this a model for the kind of program you might have is this something that we should make an annual AUC or collective eCPN collaboration yeah, I mean I think it's always great to reach out as early as possible and I think AIC and eCPN are always looking for new ways to connect on that level and this is great and I think AIC is always trying to develop new ways like the untold stories panel to reach people at all different levels so yeah yes I think that the career profession is a great profession that goes back to decades and even centuries as a situation the programs in this country are the idea of mentoring thinking about new ways to mentor and to see mentoring as a two-way relationship not only for those of us who have been a student in this place for a while but also that it is a partnership with those who are exploring it new and that for me I learned in both of those directions to recognize your role in that is something that I think the field needs to develop mentoring and to think about mentoring in new ways like partnerships that Caitlin mentioned and that you all have recognized in your own work so whatever it becomes the opportunity to connect and to realize that mentoring is a strong part of what we do and an important part of what you must learn in the field is how to be a mentee and how to be a mentor and to realize as Shannon said earlier if I can get a turning point you're a teacher too and that happens to us at different moments throughout our careers so what you've been invited to engage with at your tables and throughout today is something that hopefully will become a lifelong model of connecting and finding the role and voice as a minute we are the beginning of a community keep the recommendation follow up and because that is what we'll forge your path whether it's into conservation or something. Thank you so much for today and I can't tell you how much I think we all really appreciate the way that you've framed and I think each of you has framed the practice of mentorship but the practice of mentorship that is one being a two-way street right and it's a two-way street it's not just from the top down and it really has to continue to be a relationship that is massaged throughout and I know that as someone who has been mentoring students in art history and curatorial studies for some time that it's really really amazing when it goes in the other direction it really is and we we begin to do and learn new and different things. I also wanted to maybe ask a quick question before we break to together things that go across to Clark about you mentioned just now Renee that there were not programs in conservation until about the 1970s and it kind of makes me think about the field of photography I had another question about thinking about provenance and if the work that you do as conservators ultimately goes into say the provenance of a work of art as it might be reported in an institution but my training coming into this field of art history came through my work as a photography curator and later a praiser of photography and I worked frequently with conservators but that field also didn't really come into being until the 1970s Los Almenos the 1970s that's when you could actually go and I actually had to apprentice and very heavily so with a photography appraiser to learn the field and then I would say maybe probably at some time in the 90s mid 90s that there were programs where you could actually go to NYU for example and learn how to become an art appraiser yeah so I was just wondering if there was maybe there's a reason why these programs maybe don't happen until sometime in the 70s, 80s or 90s and I'm just trying to think of what that what that has to do with how certain careers are professionalized and I think it has a lot to do with the professionalization of the field if you want to say something Shannon I was just going to say that photography of course was not really seen as an art form until the 70s and so that was kind of what I was thinking of when you were mentioning that but I guess the way that conservation it does have this long history but it also has this history of elitism and being a field where for some people it was more their husband or someone member of the board of the museum and they needed something to do during the day so we worked in the conservation studio during artifacts and so that's in a lot of ways how some people got into the field but then obviously there's a need for it and it's very important so I think we're starting to get away from that that elitist model and making it a more equitable field all right well thank you all again so very much if you would please if you have anything on the tables there are receptacles outside of the doors if you hunt your coat the coat frag is just as you walk out the door and you shouldn't have had maps I think somewhere maps I think on the table but I'm happy to also be in charge we can walk the region we can cross to the Carpo Vanity University Art Museum where we'll be looking at a book or bar or two and we'll be over there for a start at 120 in the afternoon see you