 You're watching FJTN, the Federal Judicial Television Network. Bankruptcy is a very administrative process. Many of the litigants will never appear in a bankruptcy courtroom, they'll never go before a bankruptcy judge. So for many of those people, their impressions of the bankruptcy court is determined by their interaction with court personnel. We're supported by the taxpayer and the public has every right to know what we do. And I think it's good, for no other reason, it's good public relations. Simply go out to the community and let us know how we are serving them and let them know what our mission is. The bankruptcy courts are starting to do a much better job in educating the public via pamphlets, via brochures, and via maybe local outreach programs. In Chicago, we tend to speak to the local bar, we tend to speak to just other agencies schools, educate schools who ask us to talk about certain areas of bankruptcy and to educate people on that. As a second element of that is a lot of information now available either via the website or via pamphlets or brochures that explain the bankruptcy process and really layman's terms. In terms that anybody can understand, you open it up, here's the brochure, here's what a discharge is, here's how you file, here's what the petition is, here's the beginning, here's the end. And so I think we're doing a better job now about getting that information available out there. I think the real challenge now lies in how do we tell the public that stuff is available. If we did not provide this information out to the public about how to file the forms necessary, the general procedures, I believe we would be doing a disservice not only to the public, but we'd also be creating further burdens on the clerk's office to meet his goals because those questions are still there and they would have to be answered in person by utilizing our manual labor that's not very efficient. We did a program with our community college here which was an interim program which they sent over students from their paralegal department or paralegal students that would work a semester for the court for a grade and I thought that was extremely beneficial in that it opened up the eyes of the students to see what it was like to work for a court, what the court environment was like and at the same time it kind of helped spread the word about our court and what it was like to work within our court. We need to provide the best service possible. I mean a lot of these people are coming in because they've had bad luck. They've gotten down in their luck and had to resort to bankruptcy. We're here to provide as much information as we can to make this as easy for them as possible. When they come in they may think they're going to get average service. We want them to leave here with excellent service. The Federal Judicial Center in cooperation with the Administrative Office of the United States Courts presents Public Information and Outreach, the role of the bankruptcy court. And now your moderator for today's program, Bob Pagan. To what extent do your court customers really understand the bankruptcy process and your court's procedures? What are some courts doing to become more accessible to the public? Judges, clerks of court and court staff are increasingly asked to play an important role in the court's multifaceted relationship with the media, the bar and the community. Welcome to today's broadcast on Public Information and Outreach, the role of the bankruptcy court. Today in cooperation with the Administrative Office of the U.S. Courts, we're going to take a look at some key issues and challenges faced by bankruptcy court employees as they perform information and outreach activities. Through discussions with panelists both here in the studio and at our push-to-talk sites, we'll learn effective practices that individual court units develop to meet those challenges. These same practices may or may not be effective for you. That's for your judges and for your court to decide. So we have quite a bit to talk about in just two hours. Our hope is that by the end of it all, you'll have a working definition of public information and community outreach as it applies to the courts, be able to identify successful techniques in working with the media in both mega cases and on a day-to-day basis and finally to become familiar with effective programs and practices that help promote better understanding among the community, the bar and the courts. We encourage you to participate, ask questions and share your thoughts with us. We've built time into our discussions for your comments. If you're not using push-to-talk today, send us a fax. Our fax number will appear on the screen throughout our discussions and you may send us a note at any time during this broadcast. A fax form was provided with the downloadable materials on our DCN site. The materials also include many references and websites plus a roster and program evaluation. Now on to today's agenda. To help define public information and outreach, we're going to start with my colleague Judy Roberts' interview with David Sellers, the Assistant Director of the Office of Public Affairs in the AO. This interview will be followed by a panel discussion on media relations. We'll cover not only mega cases but also daily working relationships with the media. After that, we'll take a short break and then our community outreach and education panel discussion will focus on both national initiatives and the efforts of individual court units in reaching out to members of the bar, school and the community. We'll then provide a short wrap up at the end. And now as part of a taped interview, David Sellers, the Assistant Director of the AO's Office of Public Affairs and my colleague Judy Roberts will introduce us to the field of public affairs with the emphasis on the bankruptcy courts. We'll discuss basic definitions and concepts regarding public information, community outreach and the courts. Hello, I'm here with David Sellers, the Assistant Director for the Office of Public Affairs at the administrative office of the U.S. courts. Just about a year ago, David joined us to talk about the role of the district court clerk and how it related to the world of public affairs. And he has agreed to do the same thing this time, but from a bankruptcy perspective. David, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you, Judy. Once again. You receive many calls for information and assistance from all over the United States. Queries about what do they do in certain situations. But your office is called Public Affairs. Could you give us a working definition of what that term means? Sure. Public Affairs is kind of the, if you think of it as concentric circles, in the middle you would have public affairs and then on one circle would be public information, another one would be media relations and then the third one would be community and educational outreach. Public Affairs encompasses all of that. And it's frankly another term for communications and it's a term we're comfortable with in the government setting as opposed to the outside world which uses the term public relations which has some kind of slicker connotations that we don't like in government. Could you tell us a little bit more about each of these areas separately? For example, public information. What does that encompass? Sure. Public information used to 10, 15, 20 years ago be as simple as a sign that says this way to the clerk's office, today it's become much more sophisticated and it could be a kiosk in a courthouse which many have now that allow the public to find their way around or even to locate information about cases. Public information is basically a good business. It's making the public comfortable when it uses your courthouse. And we see lots of courts taking directions in that step nowadays with the kiosk as you said and we've even heard of court staff being asked to follow the signs and practice what they are seeing in that area. Now the media is always an ongoing issue. How do you, what is the scope of that in your world? Media relations has two again primary components. One would be the reactive which frankly is what most of us do and that is a reporter calls you or asks you a question and you respond. The other that the judiciary is stepping into with a greater degree of frequency is the proactive and that is trying to get media interest or support for programs that are occurring either in the courts or the administrative office or the federal judicial center. So you put the two together and you have a full scale media relations program. And it sounds as if there is a relationship between media relations and community outreach and education because again we need the help of the media to get our message out there to the public. Tell us what you do with the public outreach. You're absolutely right. Again these are two very closely related areas. Community outreach and education outreach are opportunities for judges and court staff to become more involved with their community and school groups to help them better understand what occurs in federal courts. That can be the judges and the court staff going out to these institutions or inviting school groups and others into the courthouse. Another important component of these programs is to invite community leaders, school teachers and the media because again while you may be speaking to 20 school students the media can take that same message to thousands or sometimes hundreds of thousands of people. Could you tell us why it is so important for the courts to be proactive in these three areas? Sure. I think it was Alexander Hamilton who said that the courts were the least understood branch of government and also the least powerful. The least powerful we probably don't have any great problem with but no one wants to be misunderstood or not understood at all and I think there's just a general understanding that you can't really trust and have confidence in something that you can't comprehend or don't have knowledge of so we have an interest in opening up the courts. I think they are fine outstanding run institutions and there's something we should be very proud of but in order to demonstrate the wonderful things that are done in courts you have to open the doors and let the public in. It seems that when the courts do become in the public eye it's usually a negative story. Could you tell us what are the challenges in dealing with negative stories in the press? First we need to talk about some definitions on one side there are negative or critical stories on the other side there are stories that are inaccurate. First let's talk about the inaccurate stories. That's when you have somebody's name spelled wrong. I've seen several stories where the reporter might confuse the plaintiff and the defendant. That's easy you pick up the phone or email the reporter and you make a correction and I think that any reader whether it's a judge or a court staff person has responsibility to make that correction. Now the critical or negative is a lot more difficult because those are the ones we have to look ourselves in the mirror and say this is critical this says bad things about us or our institution but is it accurate and more times than not it's accurate and then you have to look inward and say maybe there's some ways we can improve so that same story wouldn't be written a year from now. I find that judges like other public servants develop relatively thick skins and they're used to reading some critical things about themselves in the paper. The clerks of court may not be quite as accustomed to that but I think as you become a public figure we all get used to it. Does that become a greater communication issue? It does and again it also becomes a greater part of planning so that while you're not going to make these critical or negative stories go away I think every one of us knows there are some areas where either us our court or a particular program in our court may be vulnerable for publicity and the media nowadays is everywhere and is very aggressive and you want to assume they're going to discover that sooner or later so you have two choices either make that problem go away or figure out how you communicate about it when the press discovers it. Just the public outreach, take an enormous amount of time and people, human resources, are there ways the courts can manage their time and their planning more effectively so that it won't be such a drain on their resources? Sure I think particularly in the areas of community outreach they can plan, they can pick one or two programs they want to undertake a year because frankly there are probably every school in the community would be interested in learning more about the courts you just can't take that on so you target what your interests are and pick a program or two each year. The other thing that courts are doing with a much greater degree of success is simply sharing picking up the phone or emailing a colleague court or getting on a listserv and saying we have this issue that's come up either in the media relations area or community outreach do you have any experience and they're finding that many of them do and again that helps them from having to reinvent the wheel each time it comes up in their court. We just heard about Northern Georgia's bankruptcy court, one of their strategies was to help their fellow probation and pretrial offices with understanding bankruptcy terms and so they have prepared a manual to assist the probation and pretrial officers in understanding the fundamentals of bankruptcy since so many of the folks that these people deal with have also experienced bankruptcy in their lives. So that's been a wonderful sharing of information within the judicial family that has been very beneficial for everybody. It's a terrific example because too often we think in terms of judges or court clerks or probation officers or federal public defenders but you're right it really is a family and like any family it should share what it's doing and the probation and pretrial service officers more than anyone else who works in the federal court are their face to the community they get out into the community they interact with the community and there's no better issue for them to talk about than bankruptcy and fiscal responsibilities so that should be a wonderful model for others in the country. Are there other ways that chief judges and clerks can work together to strategize for the future? Well again I hope when they get together either just as a court or when they're the annual chief judges meetings or clerks a court meeting that they put this issue on their agenda public affairs because I think they'll find that their colleagues are doing an awful lot and they'll learn ideas and about programs from others. We plan on developing a website on the JNET on the intranet on what is occurring in primarily community outreach so that if a judge or a probation officer says yeah I wonder if such and such a program exists they'll just click on there and say here it does they can download it and take it from there but I think it's it does start with the chief judge and the clerk of court for others to become convinced that this is important that we're busy people we have lots of other issues we need to worry about but public affairs needs to be somewhere high on our agenda and they can kind of set the tone for the rest of the court. Now David about two years ago you all initiated three pilots in public information one for a district and others were involved with the circuits how have they developed their expertise and how available is this expertise to the bankruptcy courts? It's available the pilot has gone past the pilot stage now it's permanent I'm pleased to say and the resources that are available through this program are for everyone from the chief circuit judge to bankruptcy to magistrate to probation officers their court wide services when the program started as you mentioned it was in the northern district of Illinois one district court and two circuits now it's also in the first circuit the second circuit and the ninth circuit the third circuit has assistant circuit executive who among her duties are community outreach and the eastern district of Missouri has a deputy clerk of court who among her duties are community outreach so it really has expanded and I hope to see more of it and these are services and people that the courts should draw on for their expertise. So they're available for a phone call? Absolutely phone call email or call us and we'll put you in touch with them. That is great a great amount of resources. Now I'm often asked when we initially started this conversation well what does David Sellers do because he has to have all the information at his fingertips and there have to be some days where it just doesn't happen and you must feel the stress what do you do when you feel stress in our searching for information. Well Judy I've been on this job about 15 years and I'm sorry to say it still happens with a great grill of frequency that I'm asked about things I don't know anything about and I sure do feel the stress I'm fortunate to have a terrific staff of a lot of diverse skills while there may be people who have today are working on community outreach the person who manages that program Rebecca Fanning also had been the head of a big state court system so she brings a large body of knowledge beyond community outreach. Our video manager Kerry Kosola works exclusively on video but he likewise has years of background in other areas so I can walk down the hall and get terrific counsel and advice plus as you mentioned these people working out in the courts as public affairs professionals they're an email away or a phone call away and I'm not hesitant to tap into them. Also we find that our colleagues in the state courts in many of these areas are way ahead of us largely because state and local judges have to run for reelection they get more out into the community so we contact our colleagues in the states there's a listserv of state court public information officers that I participate in and I put questions on the listserv and in a matter of minutes can get 10 responses back to here's how we handle this in the states so there's an awful lot I don't know an awful lot I'll never know and that's what keeps the job challenged and interesting but there's a tremendous network of public affairs people who understand courts who weren't available 10 or 15 years ago. David how do you deal with the immediate issues while you're looking for the appropriate resources. That's a good question Judy because in the news media so often the responses they want are five minutes ago or yesterday they want quick responses so the first question we ask when a reporter calls and asks us something is what is your deadline is your deadline tomorrow is your deadline an hour from now and if they say our deadline is right now we try to tell them well realistically we're going to have to call three people to get the answer and they need to understand that sometimes it'll take some time so you don't want to be forced into responding and saying something that is inaccurate or something you wish you didn't say you want to take your time and respond carefully and the media realizes that and often it's in their interest to sometimes extend that deadline if it's worth waiting for you so you look for ways to buy some time you tell them I do everything I can to get back to you even if that means to call the reporter an hour and say I don't have a response yet but I've made contact with the appropriate person will have something for you in 15 minutes if you keep the communication going the reporter will wait for your answer it's been often said that in the absence of information we create our own information so by doing this you're giving them something to to build their patience absolutely just be careful not to create your own problems by responding immediately I can tell you the people in our office who some of who do media relations for 20 or 30 years most frequently listen hang up the phone even if they call back in three minutes you want an opportunity to process what you've been asked unless it's something that's that's very routine so it's it's it's worthwhile taking your time and thinking so what comes out of your mouth makes sense and you'll know about it when you pick up the paper the next morning and I hear that in the coming months for next year you'll be working on some bankruptcy initiatives in your public information office public affairs office and I think there's going to be a financial project that's for high schoolers right to help them develop their skills early on right you're right Judy that a lot of our outreach work with schools to start with has been targeting high school students in part because they're going to be voting soon they're going to be jurors soon but the part that you mentioned is is also true they have to become a little more financially responsible they can't always depend on mom and dad to solve their their money problems and credit cards are all easy to get nowadays and I should point out I have a five-year-old son who got a year and add for a credit card in his name so it doesn't you don't have to wait till high school now I can practice fiscal responsibility at home and just rip that add up but with the high school age students you really need to teach them how to be a little more responsible in terms of their finances and and we plan on to try to do that in the next year or so without reach events we also want to develop curriculum material that we will put on the JANET and the internet so of a judge or a school teacher or a community leader wants to talk to students or other groups about bankruptcy will have that material readily available electronically David it sounds like you've got some great plans for the coming years to help these bankruptcy courts and the clerks deal with areas of public affairs is there any final advice you'd like to give the clerks and their staffs out there watching this program today if there topics that bankruptcy judges and clerks think that we should be touching on in any of these areas media relations public information or community outreach I hope they'll call email me get in touch with me however they'd like because we want to produce programs that are useful to the courts and reflect what the courts need the second issue was something we touched on earlier but we can't overemphasize the need to plan and this is probably more true in the bankruptcy courts than any other part of the court system just because the sheer volume of work so that's a good angle to start with their strategic plan is to pick a small area for success and build on that to increase the information and communication with the public the bar other courts right and once you've identified that area when you start communicating it'll get only easier because you'll find that there are other courts there are bars that will help you out we'd be happy to help and we encountered this when we started community outreach in our office because it started from scratch about three years ago and we found there was so little being done and there's so was so much interest that we really had a quickly narrow the focus and we continue to do that there are hundreds of thousands of schools that would be interested in getting information about the federal courts whether it's bankruptcy or probation or pretrial services or virtually anything that occurs in the federal courts we simply can't handle that workload so we focus and the internet and the JANET have been wonderful that tools and helping helping the focus but still you really limit what you want to take on in order to be successful and then build on that but David thank you for sharing your ideas and your advice today I think you've given the bankruptcy courts and good I suggestions on how to begin to be more active in public affairs and to continue the good work they're already doing well thank you Judy thank you now armed with that background in public affairs we'll head into our first panel discussion on media relations joining me in the studio is the Honorable J. Vincent Ogg Jr. U.S. bankruptcy court judge for the Southern District of Ohio Kathleen Farrell clerk of court for the Southern District of New York David Olivera clerk of court for the Middle District of Florida and also Richard Corelli senior public affairs specialist at the administrative office of the U.S. courts welcome everyone let's go around the table a judge odd let me turn to you first you've had experience with the media both as a federal judge and also as a member of the press member of the media what do you find to be the most challenging aspect of dealing with the media and why do you think it's so important to develop a good relationship with the press well Bob as Judy and David made reference to the stakes are very high these days in our contacts with the media we're making the news like we've never made it before in terms of intense scrutiny of the bankruptcy system the press is looking into our caseloads and they're taking apart and debating the issues in the reform law such as who who should be eligible to file bankruptcy and which debts should be discharged and the great diversity of exemption laws so there's really no part of our system that isn't under the microscope right now the stakes are high and as you know the the scope of coverage has been it's just run the gambit from absolutely deserved and constructive criticism all the way to the worst kind of stereotyping and negative image building you could possibly imagine so when you get right down to it though when we have contact with the media the challenge I think the biggest challenge is to get a read on two factors the first one would be to try to figure out the angle or the perspective that the press is is really trying to achieve and the second one is some sort of assessment of the skill involved in the reporter or reporters who are covering the story with respect to the angle it's awfully easy to miss what the reporters after sometimes they prefer you to miss it but but but indeed you may have a story to tell about your caseload and how efficient how efficiently the system is working and the reporter might be much more interested in getting some sort of an economic forecast or or kind of a comment on the deep policy issues underneath the code and if the trick here I think or the goal is to really develop as best you can a rapport with the media and with individual reporters especially the ones who are working hard to get it right to to minimize the chance that you'll just miss that all together and really come out making some terrible mistakes with respect to the skill level of the reporters some are better than others and some have more time than others and it's very important to develop a technique for as we used to say in the press for developing a good lead and having your major theme stated up upfront and to try to control as best you can the flow of information either by setting up events before you're asked to when you when you know that there's something that the press is going to be interested in all of this is is really it's it sort of lends itself to developing a protocol if you can which will give you confidence in a situation to sort of to approach a situation but but always with the knowledge that things are going to go a little differently and you have to stay loose I think another thing that increases the anxiety level is that there is this delicate dance of negotiation between the courts and the media they need us for stories we need them to get our message out and and we're using each other to a certain degree so you've got to quickly figure out where you stand with the media and also there's always the the knowledge that mistakes when they do happen are very hard to fix and I think that presents a challenge all by itself we might talk later about how do you fix mistakes that's it really important but that's that's a my quick read on what what makes this a challenge what you've given away all the secrets of the I wish I had more dick you've also had media experience having covered the Supreme Court for the associated press for 20 years and now you're working with the office of public affairs so what would you add in terms of challenges and what do you feel of the media's expectations the media's expectations and desire is is access and that is access to information that they that they know the court has information about particular cases or they may be seeking information about in a story that might focus on the court itself although most often I think they're looking for specific information that is contained in a case that is before the court otherwise the media expects to be treated on a level playing field a reporter for a newspaper and a reporter for a TV station or radio station expect that they will have the same access to the same public documents and don't want to feel that that they have some some kind of handicap in in covering the court the the access they seek could be access to the courtroom itself if there's a proceeding and what's going on there it could be to the papers involved in the case or nowadays to electronic files and electronic orders from the court the the challenge I guess for the courts is to provide the media with with a feeling that the court is responding to their need for access probably the most important thing for the court to do is to provide the media with a go to person who do I talk to most often the clerk's office who do I talk to who can tell me where I can find this information or can tell me that this information isn't available there's also the challenge for judges and those who work with judges of trying to build a rapport that the judge all talked about when the cast is constantly changing on the news media side it's somewhat ironic in a day when when there's more and more news coming out of the bankruptcy court the news media's commitment to legal affairs in covering bankruptcies and and other legal matters is really waning and so what that means is that you have a constant turnover of reporters and often very inexperienced reporters showing up at your door it's a real challenge it's a real challenge Kathleen as clerk for the southern district of New York what's been your experience in terms of working with the media do you do that yourself do you have your judges go directly with the media how does that work well the judges don't go directly to the media they do obviously have contact with the media in the courtroom there's always press in the courtroom especially we've got in run so especially in the in-run case there's there's judges at the door for more formal communications with the with the media there is an assistant circuit executive in charge of media relations and formal communications will be made through him I have done interviews with the press for for more for programs that were involved in like electronic case filing or something like that or statistics I'll give that information out we do want to make sure that the information that we give out to the press is correct so and when we get a large case like n-run and we get a phone call that there's a large case coming coming into the court I one of the first questions I ask is will this attract a lot of media attention if so I need a PR person and a phone number to defray phone calls that are going to start coming into the court you have an assistant circuit executive you have access to it for public affairs yes yes we do and he would be making any formal presentations and communications with the press we're going to be talking a little bit about something that that's been that was put together by that assistant circuit a little bit about that later yes you also use the web a lot to convey information we use the web a lot to convey information after 9 11 we used the web we used from home I did a new home page from our web explaining what happened and explained to people how they could still get access to the court we still had two divisions open we had a judge sitting in white planes so we use that as a mechanism to get the the message out to everyone we also I was in contact with the district court executive and the circuit executive so we did have messages out on the news radio stations and television giving telling people the status of the courts in lower Manhattan that were of course closed for a few days but by the next week we were all open and we were able to get that message out through media folks were able to file in fact absolutely people were able to file during that time and we did get that message out and we did have filings during that period of time and we got the message out that people could go and access the information at the two divisional offices and where they were and how to get there and things like that a David Middle District of Florida is actually the third largest in the country in terms of filing and that that must create a lot of interest in terms of the media give us an example of the kinds of information that they might be interested in and how you handle it sure unlike Kathleen we don't have in Ron most of our press interest is drawn by our statistics we were up 22% last year and this year we're up about 5% so most of the questions we get press inquiries we get are focused on those statistics and what they mean the biggest pit fall is they're trying to get you write their story you're up 22% what's causing that isn't it teenagers with credit cards isn't it old people with medical bills and you just really have to stay away from that given the statistics make sure everybody has the right statistics there they're available to everybody at the same time but stay away from writing the story for them make them write the story that's what their job is stick to your job what you just collecting the statistics for that's really a key a key bit of advice here because I'm sure we'd all agree that that I'm trying to interpret too much and trying to write their story has the potential of causing some tremendous tremendous place yes could turn out to be a long misquote well let's shift from the the challenges and what the media really wants to both some methodologies for providing the information and also will provide some suggested dos and dos what can clerks or court staff do to to help reporters understand court limits perhaps so well judge aug let me turn turn to you again well it a subject at the national conference of bankruptcy judge was that handling the press in mega cases about a year and a half ago and the attorney the audience was mostly attorneys but the the work that went into that really provided a number of pointers which we dubbed the ten commandments of dealing with the press and and they would stand anyone in good stead who has an encounter especially one that's sort of a high pressure on the spur of the moment type of encounter but the idea of controlling the flow that I spoke about earlier creating media events that you can prepare for a writing a good lead and sticking with your theme are us are central to how you approach the the subject a few other ones I'll just name a couple because there were a number but that one of them was that never lie to the press never ever lie but at the same time it's a little counterintuitive you can expect them to lie and David gave a perfect example of how how a reporter will load up a question with with a theme not a fact but a theme and an assumption and you have to be very careful not to respond inappropriately or you'll be quoted as having exactly that opinion so I mean talking about about leading questions there the press are masterful at it but another one is regard stonewalling and there's this concept that the comment no comment is just always a negative unfortunate way to respond to any inquiry if you can't answer the question explain why you can't what rule what the rules are and the press will appreciate it actually and you won't look like you've got something to hide telling bad news first is always a good idea if you're able to just to steal the thunder from someone who may be out to make it worse than it really is and finally that there's that concept of off the record that's that a lot of people feel they know how it works but it's very important to get a reporter to say out of the reporter's mouth that something is off the record if you preface a remark by saying and this is off the record and then say it it's not off the record so you've got to get that commitment witnesses are not a bad idea either but occasionally you're left with no option but to write a sorrowful letter to the editor-in-chief of the paper telling how you've been abused and usually usually if you're doing that it's a little late and the mistakes are hard to fix I must say though that that the website that's been developed for our court is now of interest as a possible tool for fixing those mistakes and I haven't used it that way yet but I think it may happen you are kind enough to forward to us those 10 commandments and for viewers to know we're going to be adding that to our court operations exchange so you will all have access access to it dick would you add anything to add to the judge's comments no I think I think he's on target with all of them they're well-thought-out I would I would add that the that often a reporter who gets it wrong is not acting out of malice but it's just clueless and an introductory materials any materials that will help in orientation to a reporter who isn't that familiar with bankruptcy law or the ways of the court could be very valuable a question for both both like Kathleen and David again relating to who in your court actually meets with the media we know it can be different from from court to court some courts in fact have local rules on the subject and the judges can clerk to it talk a little bit about Kathleen about your the use of your assistant circuit executive well I find out that our assistant circuit executive put together a meeting with about 55 journalist editors news media people together with these the New York state court and they had a symposium and they put basic information in here for about the state court and about the federal courts and bankruptcy court in particular what they've got in here is basically the the basic bankruptcy books so that people media covering the bank the bankruptcy court will have some basic knowledge that they can refer to and it's also got something that we call the survival guide to the records room which is basically just how to simply find information in our court it can be a little of overwhelming to people who are not familiar with the court so we give them this little guide and it sort of explains to them how to get our electronic information or how to get information that is still on paper or conventionally and and even had access records from the archives important to the media important for your own employees a survival guide to the records absolutely we use it a lot it's a pop they get stuck there right David let me turn to you in terms of what's done on the rare occasions where we have to put out a press release it's would be either drafted by myself remember this clerk staff and then the chief judge would approve it and release it after he talked to the presiding judge for whatever division is we have three divisions but most the time we just get routine inquiries about our statistics and those are handled by the deputy in charge by myself my chief deputy so that it's very a good deal more informal it appears in what Kathleen we're going to turn to a few push-to-talk courts I understand I hope are on the line we have Mark Hatcher clerk of court from the western district of Washington on Washington on push-to-talk mark you have a person designated to deal with the media how does that work and what do you think are the the greatest challenges in that area western Washington we're a medium to large-sized court but we don't have a lot of high-profile or mega cases the inquiries that we get from the media most often concern bankruptcy trends and statistics and we've designated the courts administrative analysts to handle these questions which come to us pretty routinely on a monthly basis for continuity sake we found that it's good to have just one focal contact person dealing with these kinds of questions and I think too that the media appreciates that and the relationship that they've established with this person and frankly just knowing who specifically to contact for information occasionally we do get calls from reporters wanting information for a story oftentimes it's a reporter writing a general interest story on bankruptcy and like some of the other panelists have said often it's somebody who is new to the subject of bankruptcy and they just want somebody to educate them give them some sort of an overview of the process other times it's a reporter writing a story about increased filings and they want our interpretation or perspective and I'll usually handle those as clerk or my chief deputy will and we try to stick with the facts like some of the panelists have said it's I think important to be careful about interpretation and so forth so we aren't academics we aren't in the business of studying trends so we try to be careful imparting information in that regard we also sometimes maybe asked to refer reporters to attorneys or trustees who might shed light on particular aspects of the bankruptcy process or even on a particular case and in those circumstances we're happy to make those kinds of referrals what we found I think in terms of working with reporters is that it's important to recognize that their lives really revolve around deadlines and it's helpful to them that we return their calls promptly even if it's just to say I don't know or I'm looking into it for you or whatever and of course just being forthright and straightforward on the issues you know is important we found that also that it's been good to cultivate our relationships with the press and establish a rapport we seldom seek the press out for publicity but it's good to know that a rapport has been established and that we can cash in on it if necessary thanks so much I guess the last thing I say is that one of the other things that we do routinely is issue press releases on our bankruptcy trends and that kind of keeps us in the view of the press thank you thanks so much mark I we have Jerry Crock at the clerk of North Carolina Western I on the line Jerry how is it handled there hi Jerry in North Carolina Western if you'll please turn down your sounds there won't be any feedback of a major area when in particular other than myself and my what I call the statistical analysis person and it's probably primarily just statistical information that various various people want and they seem to be very happy about it we put the information on our website the the filing the early filings annual filings and the chapter filings and the divisional filings and that seems to keep most of the people informed of what's happening in our district thanks so much Jerry let me ask members of the panel are there any surprises in dealing with the media perhaps misquotes or a failure to understand what might be involved in a chapter 11 some misrepresentation how you go about correcting it David well reporters have a job to do just like you do and they want the story so they expect you to be responsive and we should be responsive clearly they want to get it right because their credibility is at stake their careers at stake so they they have a sincere interest in making sure they get it right and occasionally they don't and when that happens usually a call or what a email however you're communicating with a particular reporter will solve that issue you've got it wrong because and that'll be the end of it and if that doesn't work of course you can always go higher to their director editor or whatever thing like that but you also have to be careful when something's put out there that's not right and it's clearly not right and on its on some merits it does not stand well you perhaps should not waste your time trying to lend any credibility to it by responding to it let it consider it water under the bridge and as the judge mentioned maybe use your website to put out the right information or something but to respond directly to the reporter are or his publication whatever it is may not be the best thing to do. Judd Jerry action. Well you know on the positive side every now and then I'll get a call from a reporter who wants to wade through the complex drafting of the code especially where it's things are really not very well drafted and I am just thrilled when that happens and I am thrilled to work with reporters when they call up and want to get a story right and give them information without any advice and if as long as it's not case related but on the negative side when when there's really a massive screw up as we saw in the first 10 days of the federated case I was on the record I was not writing letters to the editor I told the reporters that made the mistake that this was really unacceptable an unacceptable level of work and scolded a lot of people in the next hearing there were only two reporters there instead of 20 so apparently there were very good reporters and you found a secret but I really you know that case caused me I mentioned before you you have to develop techniques but then stay loose in that case I changed everything I had been doing for 15 years working with people and absolutely clammed up privately and made all my contacts with the press on the record in court on the record and and we even had some interchages back and forth about what they expected of us and what we expected of them so it was you know that that mistake actually was fortunate in the long run because it was the last one nothing anything like that happened but you know right off the bat we had 120,000 employees who thought they were going to be fired the next day for no reason at all it was it was it was a wake up call for all of us I think thank you judge increasingly so technology especially the use of the web has had a big impact on distributing case related information be it a mega case or just any case in general and not just to the media but to the public at large and Kathleen as mentioned before your court has the nron case and if you'll explain a little bit about how you use the web to get the information out and what you see are the advantages of that and nron certainly has put us in a focal point we're under the microscope everybody's looking to see what we're doing and one of the things you don't want to get out there is incorrect information so you want to make sure that what you're getting out there is consistent and correct so for nron and other mega cases we have used utilize the website and when a mega case files that is going to attract a lot of media attention oftentimes we'll just get the basic information out there quick on the website so that the press can get access to it for nron we have a hyperlink to the nron website which in turn hyperlinks to another website which provides for free a copy of the court's documents it's got a big disclaimer on it that it is not the court's documents and we didn't set the pace on that one I understand San Francisco did it with the Pacific gas and electric case so we sort of followed their lead in it so well the courts are learning from one another on what works because when nron first filed it really did drag our system down for people who don't know our court is totally electronic and all of our cases are available electronically so everybody trying to get access to that case really did slow us down a bit so major major advantages to to us it's keeping it kept the phone lines down there wasn't the flurry of activity coming into the courthouse to get information the press was getting it immediately over the internet when the judge issued an opinion on the venue motion twenty minutes after it was issued and docketed I saw CNN broadcasting about it out in front of our building so it does work it gets the information out there quickly what a change in how information is communicated absolutely case related not clamoring at our door anymore that's right but you also make a another excellent point that with technology you have the abilities to link to other to other sites in this case the nron site but you have to be very careful to let them know that you are the source of the true source of case related information that information is second hand that ours is the the official file and record yeah we also have in our push to talk line john serrano clerk of court for the central district of california I believe is the largest bankruptcy court in terms of filings John you have the orange county chapter nine case how do you use the web to get the information out to the media and what do you see of the advantages manju and the fjc and your panel participants on their fine topic and presentation I happen to believe that public outreach and understanding the media is a very important part of the judiciary mission in this program will go a long way to that understanding with regards to our orange county case I'll give you a little story that when the case first filed I had a reporter which obtained a directory of the court and called every clerk's office staff member and every member of chambers in order to try to get a story and to get some background information in the bottom line is when they want to get a quote from somebody in the court they will find a way of doing that I think it's very important that you you think about in advance how you want to present the court anticipate what the news media wants and what the court is capable of communicating and in that light what I learned from that is that you really don't instruct your staff to not talk with the media rather it's more important to give them a response that if they get that phone call such as please contact a clerk of court at this phone number or please contact this liaison person who has been designated for the case or give them the website address and say information is available here people feel more comfortable if they can say something other than no comment and such and like other courts when we have a high profile case and in also in the orange county case for example we automatically just put the initial case filings and important orders of the case onto the website under section that we call high profile cases even though we're of course have pacer as with everyone else the media doesn't necessarily have access to pacer and those kinds of those kinds of things I think it's also very important that you provide educate that the court provides educational and background materials to the media which is suitable for your typical newspaper or television sound bite and I'm talking about fairly basic items like the difference between a liquidation and a reorganization even though I know many courts have very lengthy descriptions of these areas you know they're looking for something that fits within one or two sentences and it's very important to get that out also if the your particular judge is okay with this the the case presiding judge and it's appropriate you may want to provide an official photo and bio of the judge to the media that they're going to usually in a very high profile case they're going to want something on the judge and if you have an official bio at least you may get it right I know is amusing here on how many different schools the particular judge had attended and none of them which were accurate because they were trying to get information from unofficial sources and also I think it's appropriate that there are many things that the court should not comment on a high profile case so you may want to work out something with the president of your local bar and if your bar is large enough if you have a commercial law and bankruptcy section like we have here in southern California where they will designate experts who are not associated with the case who could provide information to the media which are opinion related which are things the court of course should stay out of one thing which is not directly web related that we learned early on is when you have a very large case typically you're going to have more media wanting to go to the case than you have spots in your courtroom in the hearing so it's very important to create a media pool early on in the case have them elect a liaison and then you work directly with that liaison in terms of handling how the media will go into the courtroom they will select members that will rotate in and out of the courtroom if necessary work with your local marshals you can issue tickets to the courtroom so that you you have an appropriate representation of both the public the the media and others associated with the case so you don't have on a first come first serve where they can overwhelm your courtroom and finally I would suggest if you're going to talk with the media do it from written notes and if necessary even have a written statement that you could hand to them or even put out on the website in the form of a press release that's great information thank you thank you so much John from California this time the northern district we have Gloria Franklin the clerk of court Gloria we know you have the Pittsburgh the Pacific gas and electric mega case what are the advantages in terms of dealing with the web with the press if you can Gloria hi Gloria Gloria if you could please turn down your sound just Kathleen described for the Enron case PG&E is one of the largest bankruptcy cases ever filed in history in our history and it has generated tremendous amount of interest from the general public special interest groups the bar and the media and we've had press coverage at almost every hearing and have had to deal with more than thirty press organizations in our court and as a result of this interest we have made it possible for the public to really to readily access case information through our website however our first con the first contact point is our website and we have a link to the PG&E website which provides case docket and information and links to all the documents filed in the case but most importantly for us the web has also been useful in providing special instructions to the bar the media and the myriad of special interest groups that we've had to deal with and who are interested in attending the court hearings we've had to provide special instruction to the the media and the special interest groups on courtroom decorum uh... ceding assignments as well as you might imagine we've uh... had a tremendous crowds and the courtroom of course capacity cannot handle such crowds and we've had to uh... request that people register over the uh... the website and uh... pay special attention to all of our requirements and expectations this has cut down tremendously just having all of the information on the website has cut down tremendously on all the telephone calls and inquiries for information on most of the common uh... documents that are filed like the voluntary petition list of twenty largest unsecured creditors any special notice list disclosure statements and the reorganization plan uh... we've also have a feedback button that provides an opportunity for the public to comment on uh... any information the way we display the information on the website uh... and of course any comments or complaints they may have about uh... information that is not there so it's proved pretty useful uh... in handling and controlling a lot of the uh... information that uh... comes our way and what people want to know uh... about uh... this court and uh... any of our uh... mega cases in general thanks so much gloria i'm going to go around the table here just for some one-liners if you will from our uh... because we're just about at the end of this session from our panel just some final advice well bob i used to think i knew a lot about dealing with the press but the truth is over the years uh... most of the lessons i've learned have been associated with a certain amount of pain uh... i think it's important to know that these are skills you can learn and uh... and with all the media consultants today in the world and with technology changing fast uh... it's important for all of us to pick up these skills and to remember you have to stay a little bit loose uh... and uh... recognize each case is different each situation is different i think again i would emphasize it don't be responsive but don't fall into the trap of trying to write their story for them uh... remember that when you talk to a reporter you're of course representing yourself your names may or may not appear in the print representing your court and you're representing the judiciary so what you say may have big implications what i'd say in Tampa doesn't seem like it'd be national interest but it may be if a reporter spends it just right so you have to be real careful and mark your trail as you go along mark your trail i'd say uh... be prepared be patient and don't lose your sense of humor one of the things that i would say is uh... it is a the five hundred pan elephant is sitting there and the media contact with media has changed over the years so have a policy in place set up some protocols how you're going to deal with the media when it does start panning on your door uh... have the spokesperson designated in advance uh... make sure you know the parameters that that are to be followed and make sure that everybody in the court knows what they are so they know where to direct the courts of someone uh... the calls as they can start coming in that's great uh... it's time for us to take a five minute break now and when we return we'll focus on community outreach and uh... education efforts before we go i'd like to thank the members of our panel judge on Kathleen Farrell david olivera and dick karelli as well as our push to talk and phone in participants during the break will be showing some summary points and additional thoughts on dealing with the media see you in five minutes we need to demystify the experience of coming to a federal court the means to to achieve that is to provide as much information the court experience as we can prior to the individuals coming into the courthouse itself and that can be describing what the general procedure is within a court within a hearing particular hearing uh... providing information as to how to get to the courthouse local parking facilities even areas where an individual could even get lunch during the breaks in the courthouse so that the anxiety is is lessened by this experience of coming to a federal courthouse our court is very active reaching out to the community and the judges take i think great pride in being able to go out there and talk to different uh... whether it's law schools or whether it's grade schools or high schools or just other constituencies in the community that wish to have that invite someone to talk to they are constantly out there talking with the general public and with the people involved in the judiciary about about really about about issues that are affecting the judiciary about where we're going we also have to be considerate of the needs of our pro se debtors and what i mean by that specifically is that we have to uh... be aware that they may be less informed and work towards providing the information that they need to understand our system of justice part of that responsibility is also to ensure that they take advantage of the protection that the bankruptcy law authors and in order to do that they have to be familiar with the system that provides that protection the northern district of illinois has developed a joint program with the bar and with the judges and with the clerk's office to help pro se litigants get some information that they normally wouldn't get for free it's basically a pro bono program that that they allow for the pro se and what it entails is three hours a week there is an attorney that sent from the bar to answer basically questions from pro se litigants pending bankruptcy matters we got terrific training from the court he on the ground training in the law firm is probably the most important because it gets the attorneys comfortable uh... with the system younger attorneys are automatically comfortable with the system because they grow up utilizing computers also solicit uh... feedback from our users of our services in terms of a survey that they can fill out either online or or hard copy we've utilized the results of that survey to improve a number of our services particularly at our intake counter where most of our walk-in traffic comes in but also the services that we provide over the internet as well in the second part of this broadcast we're going to focus our attention on community outreach and education let me welcome back kathleen farrell and david olivera joining us now at the honorable carol j kenner u.s. bankruptcy court judge from the district of massachusetts and rebecca fanning the national community and educational outreach manager for the a os office of public affairs let me welcome everybody again rebecca let me start uh... with you uh... you're responsible for the national initiatives dealing with community outreach and we heard a little bit about community outreach uh... from the interview with david sellers but would you provide us with a working definition for community outreach and education community outreach when it's effective are all the very practical ways that courts connect with their communities and our emphasis really is to bring communities into the courthouses because we have so many limitations on judges time and also because we want to break down some of those fears and stereotypes and some of the alienation that's out there and misunderstanding that can be done in a number of ways uh... at the national level what we do is we put together an uh... an annual initiative for every one of the courthouses chooses to participate and then we make it a turnkey operation so that someone who's never put together an event before knows exactly what goes into making an event and we have an umbrella uh... title for that and it's called open doors to federal courts and participation of judges is is absolutely critical isn't there a study done relating to that in fact yes that's right the Hearst corporation uh... did a survey and they said that seventy five percent of the respondents said their number one choice their favorite way the most effective way to get information about the courts is through judges so we find that the judges really are a central part of the success of the program and in observing programs around the country they make all the difference you've also established um... four criteria for developing these programs as well as determining success if you could just comment on those four that's right we look at our programs and we're shaping them first they're driven by judges and teachers and our key audiences and those are two key audiences beyond that we use a framework of looking at the program from the standpoint of knowledge what kind of information are we giving in terms of the core uh... function of the courts uh... the structure and the role of the courts understanding we try to create experiences where we see the human face of the judiciary the judges the court staff then investment we want all law abiding citizens and i think this applies especially to bankruptcy court to feel that they have a stake in a well-run bankruptcy court or federal court system and involvement we want people who come into the courts to feel that yes they can have an impact yes they are involved one way to do that is to feel comfortable when you're going to bankruptcy court or to serve as as a juror take a five take just one minute and and describe some of those programs that are part of that open doors to the federal courts okay i'll just quickly tick them off i think it's important to note that uh... our direction uh... for these outreach items started in the bankruptcy area with the bankruptcy advisory group and we were asked to put together some lesson plans that could be used both in the classroom and the courtroom by teachers and judges so that gave us some excellent guidance and we also have bankruptcy judges who serve in an advisory capacity in in in an informal way so that we know that we're staying on track so right now what we're working on is uh... a series of three lesson plans that judges and uh... teachers can use and the timing is excellent because as you may know there's a big financial literacy trend sweeping the schools across the nation and so we're linked with that and we want to make sure that our materials are compatible those materials because we know that that will be the most effective way to distribute the information so then we have our open doors to federal courts program and that's a variety of programs that can be generated locally or nationally i think i mentioned something about the national program uh... this year our focus is on jury service and we have found that bankruptcy courts really lead the way in participation in these initiatives even though they tend to focus on criminal cases because teachers have told us what we need help with is teaching about the bill of rights but what we find is that bankruptcy courts partner with district courts so that the district court will handle that part of the program the criminal trial and then the bankruptcy court has time to develop its program and so that way the students see that it's a unified court system and yet bankruptcy court and its special needs are also highlighted we have a teacher's website with lesson plans that support the booklet understanding the federal courts and bankruptcy is definitely mentioned in that booklet and has several chapters and then we have an exhibit that we take to social studies conferences throughout the country and we uh... expose those materials are educational materials to more than six thousand teachers and that's where i do a lot of listening thank you rebecca just a reminder that we've included in your reference materials uh... a link to that uh... the aos outreach show a website uh... now that we've heard a bit about the the national definition of community outreach and something about the programs uh... judge can i want to turn it over to you as a bankruptcy judge why do you think it's uh... so important uh... for the court to reach out to the public and why is the public so interested now i think it's because we affect such a broad spectrum of people uh... unlike some other trial courts there's just a plaintiff and a defendant involved uh... a typical chapter eleven case will affect debtor the debtor sometimes hundreds or thousands of creditors uh... suppliers vendors landlords employees retirees a huge uh... group of people even in a fairly straightforward consumer debtor case uh... they'll be thirty to forty creditors who are affected so we we affect a lot of people and it's important for them to understand the process so there's also an open question if you will relating to the to what is the role of the court and uh... and that's fairly controversial it is controversial i think some and i think there's a that there's a number of certainly valid but differing opinions on that some courts feel that debtor education is inappropriate that it's not an appropriate role for the courts certainly proselytizing uh... is not uh... appropriate uh... so i think we uh... i disagree though that uh... with respect to some of my colleagues position i i think judges are uniquely situated uh... we have a special expertise that something that we can provide to the public kathleen let me turn it to you what is community outreach and education uh... mean in the uh... southern district of new york and what do you think of its benefits we've actually done a lot of uh... community outreach and and getting word out there and for various things we've done a lot of it specifically uh... for electronic case filing although we were involved in before that uh... we were in contact with the managing court's attorney's associations and the various bar associations in the city uh... but we have uh... our staff has turned into uh... spokespersons trainers they go out to law firms uh... to assist them with electronic case filing we've uh... done some uh... uh... education of our own staff which i'll talk about a little bit later uh... we've we've done some things we've put in a court services coordinated to assist uh... pro se debtors when they they come in we've done uh... classes with uh... i have uh... relationship with some high school teachers and some college professors that routinely bring their classes through some law firms have uh... intern programs that they bring their uh... interns through in the summer and i do a basic civics lesson and just sort of outline the federal judiciary and how the bankruptcy court fits into it because they probably have not heard of the bankruptcy court they asked some really good questions we have a judge who is very generous with his time and uh... will oftentimes set up a lunch meeting with them which makes them more at ease with him and a lot of these uh... students come from the inner city and it's sort of after they've come through the court it's like you know i could do this and it sort of opens up a new uh... avenue to them that they hadn't thought about before it really helps them identify with the bankruptcy court as an institution absolutely and sort of gives them a different light on a judge when they get to sit down and have lunch with them so that's kind of a nice experience david let me turn it over to you well we have uh... one of our judges has a mentoring program for the young lawyers and we are in constant contact with the bar associations we publish in their newsletter we work with their officers and coordinate our activity see that geographically we're a pretty big district so to reach out requires some pretty big arms and hands and i'm sure that comment just drew a little round of applause for my staff down in tamper were commenting about the height i live at but our focus is more on uh... people when they reach in uh... what what kind of information can we make available to them when they come looking uh... on the website our general information about bankruptcy we have a handout that we have at the uh... intake window for people just some basics how much it costs what forms you have to file what's the difference between chapter seven and chapter eleven so they know that uh... the local rules information judges procedures are on our website so that the lawyers can get access to that so we really focus more on people that are reaching in and us reaching out that's a really important uh... point just as important as reaching out with these kind of the kinds of programs that have been mentioned is you have to stay on top of the kinds of information that your customers will need when they reach in for information when they come to court either through the web or actually come to the court so you have to take advantage of uh... of any instrument that you can to get that kind of instrument information be ready to provide it for sure uh... these are all great ideas and uh... certainly reasons for these kinds of programs and one of the things we're focusing on is uh... our programs that can be implemented with limited resources that seems to always be a question what can i uh... uh... implement on the shoestring budget and i know rebecca talked a bit before about the open doors to the federal courts program uh... we have in our studio today regina bivins deputy in charge and sandy poindexter strategic planning coordinated coordinator and supervisor case administration both from the western district of tennessee web implemented this program for the bankruptcy court and with the community i know rebecca that you work very very closely with both uh... sandy and regina yes i do have the privilege of working with both and they are two of seventy four courthouse coordinators that have been cultivated over the past three years we started with zero and then the chief judges uh... ask different people in their courthouse to take the lead on this program and it really does require leadership a lot of professional skill and personal skill and so what is so true in life is ask a busy person and that person will really achieve the results you want that's the case with uh... these courthouse coordinators and uh... so i would like to first start with you regina and uh... this year we've developed a resource pool and both regina and sandy have offered to be part of that so that as veterans they can talk to newcomers to organizing the program regina perhaps you could tell us what you did to make the program work in your court rebecca one of the keys to success in our court was to have the support of the judges and the clerk by having their support we were able to get the resources needed and also they were able to provide contacts that may be able to assist us with the program another resource is to have the bar association involved by having their support you're able to get the additional information needed to provide a legal resource in preparing for the program another resource is the board of education by having their support you're also able to have an additional contact to make the additional contact needed with the principals and the teachers of course another resource always is clerk's office staff as needed they provide you the finishing touches that's needed to make the program come together these resources along with the flexibility provided by the a o public affairs office has enabled us to be able to put on a successful program each year thank you regina sandy could you add to that yes rebecca i have some pointers first of all look within your court for resources make it simple keep it simple for yourself and everyone else it really helps make everything relaxed and enjoyable have fun uh... people remember a good program contact rebecca fanning she's a great resource at the a o she's very helpful and remember that the title of this outreach program is open doors to federal courts the federal courts are reaching out initiate ongoing relationships and interactions with the public well thank you very much and i i think the audience can understand why this is really the favorite part of my job is because the court coordinators add so much to the program and every single program in every courthouse even though we have a national framework for it is very different and really suits the needs of the particular bench and the community involved thanks uh... again to both sandy and regina for joining us i want to remind listeners that are pushed to talk to let us know if you have any questions or you'd like to highlight an effort in your court and we're gonna try to have a few minutes to open up the lines for that purpose later in the broadcast or if you want to fax in a question please do so we have received a few faxes that relate to the first part of the broadcast and we're gonna try and get to them but if not for sure we're going to make sure that uh... that the individuals that can answer those questions uh... where they'll be referred to them uh... cathleen your court actually puts uh... its entire strategic plan on the internet so everybody the public can readily see what the court's uh... high priorities might be tell us a little bit about that uh... we do put it out there we've done this this is our seventh strategic plan will be out there very shortly uh... we feel that we want the public to know what the mission of the court is what the court's uh... direction is uh... it keeps everyone uh... focused and involved with the strategic plan certainly the staff certainly all knows what it is and before we make any major decisions we look to the strategic plan we put other things out there on the on the website uh... to make it easy for people to give us feet to see things to where we're soliciting from feedback such as the proposed the more recently we put out proposed guidelines for requests for a deterrent possession financing and some procedural guidelines for uh... filing prepack chapter eleven cases and we put them out there for comment from whoever wanted to comment to them and we gave them an email address to send it back so we use the website a lot and we'll highlight things that are new and and put it out there uh... david you know like to focus on those that reach in uh... and how you can handle that we we have customer service reps at each uh... each division to help someone that comes to counter maybe not be with the procedures we also have a clerk's suggestion box which allows people to provide an input when they have uh... question procedure we're using or have a question about why the court is operating a certain way though there are uh... and you need to look at each one of those as you receive them seriously though we've had some interesting ones uh... the one that recommending that we establish a drive-up filing didn't go over real well though it was a good source of humor on a tough day on the push-to-talk line we have mark hatcher again clerk of court uh... for washington-western uh... mark to continue the theme of customers reaching and i know you've been very active in promoting improved customer service at the counter can you tell us a little bit about that and and also uh... uh... some of your efforts to educate the bar on using cmecf just take a minute or so uh... thanks bob thanks bob i think like most courts we we do place heavy emphasis on providing good customer service both at the front counter and over the phone uh... we know that many of our customers will never enter a bankruptcy court room or or appear in front of a bankruptcy judge and that their views or perceptions about bankruptcy court uh... will largely be determined by their interactions with court staff so we try to stress to the staff that we have an obligation really to the institution to appear professional and to provide helpful courteous service in our district we have a very large clientele approach a filers and a lot of them are confused and they don't understand the bankruptcy process so we try to convey to the staff that it's okay to be helpful and we try to give them the tools to be helpful uh... i think it can be too easy to fall into the trap of not being helpful for fear of crossing over the line of providing legal advice uh... so we talk about legal advice and we talk about the difference between that and procedural advice and we try to make the distinction as clear as possible so the staff can feel empowered to be helpful uh... we also rely on some of the fjc videos on that same topic uh... we've also found that it helps in terms of staffing at the front counter to have a compliment of both new and experienced people working together uh... so there's always a resource for help uh... particularly on those borderline questions and lastly we encourage staff that it's no negative reflection on them if they want to call for a supervisor manager to come out and clarify a point with the customer if they feel it's necessary uh... like bob you also uh... uh... mentioned with respect to reaching out to our customers on cmecf uh... one of the things we've been doing as a supplement to our on-site training classes is making house calls to the law offices uh... in our district electronic filing it's voluntary uh... and we found that it helps to be as accommodating as possible in order to encourage the attorneys onto the system and also to keep them using it so we'll actually send a group comprised of automation staff and ecf trainers to individual law offices to either help the attorneys get started or even to troubleshoot problems they might be having you know we'll do this on request uh... oftentimes will do it uh... at our own volition will just volunteer ourselves uh... to some of our largest filers uh... on these visits we tend not to get too involved in hardware issues and installing equipment uh... but we do look at the attorney's computer settings and configurations uh... particularly if they're having connections or performance problems and now this is a new and growing customer service we're providing uh... and i must say it's been very well received by the bar in fact uh... helped catapult our participation rate uh... to well over fifty percent of the practicing bankruptcy bar in the area here that's that's tremendous mark thanks thanks so much uh... i we have gary drake on the line now and i'd like to uh... i know gary that the northern district of of georgia is very very active in in c m s e c f uh... one of those courts that jumped on the bandwagon so early in the in the game uh... but i would like you to focus on something else because i know that you developed a bankruptcy related program for probation and pretrial services officers explain a little bit about why you did that uh... thank you bob uh... we did create a powerpoint presentation that we have presented to probation pretrial services in the northern district of georgia it is based directly on the bankruptcy basics public information series published by the administrative office i was approached by one of the deputy chief probation officers about making this presentation because they were seeing in their work a growing number of defendants with a bankruptcy history they were uncertain of the bankruptcy process or even what the different chapters represented uh... the presentation was very well received by the probation pretrial officers there and i suspect will be making this in the future as they bring additional officers on board uh... this is a present