 members of our legislature to talk about what's happened this year, what are the things that they really think that we should know about, and what are they looking forward to for next year. So joining us is Representative Bill Lippert, who is our longest serving out legislator. And we thank you for everything you've done. Representative Kathleen James, who was on an earlier show, and this is her first session, and Representative John Kalaki, who I'm told might come for his own interview in the near future, and this is also his first session in the legislature. So welcome. Thank you. Thanks. So I'm hoping for scintillating conversation. So yeah, Kathleen's already been taking notes. So let's start with the, what is it that has been acted on by the House? The Senate doesn't have to have acted on again. For which you think people need to be aware, or it's a particular bill that, you're really proud that we did this this year. And notice, Bill, they're all looking at you. Do you want to go first? Just because it happened today that I just was looking at the emails, and I saw that the governor signed Indigenous Peoples' Day, and you were a House sponsor. Well, I was, many of us were sponsors in the House and Senate, but I was able to present that bill to the floor of the House. And it's a profound change that we're recognizing this whole story. And to me, as a new legislator, I just sat there, and I, there was no fanfare at the governor's office, just was a press release that, oh, by the way, he had signed this bill. And I thought change can happen. Yes. I mean, it's taken a very long time. And Vermont is one of the states that has done this. But to think that we all had a hand in that change, and then to look back and see all the different things that have happened. But that was my first, like... And for people who don't know, this changes that holiday in October to Indigenous Peoples' Day. And they had done it by proclamations for it. It doesn't erase Columbus, but it tells the whole story. Yes. And I just thought, good for us, and it kind of also, for me, segues into the very first bill that... H3. H3. Why aren't you talking about that? Because that's pretty... Which came out at the Education Committee on which you said... Yeah, it did. Yeah, as a freshman legislator, it was pretty amazing to me to have H3 be the first bill that my committee worked on. And it was, that's the Ethnic and Social Equity Bill. Yeah. So, really, it's been signed into law by Governor Scott, and that's really going to change the way we teach Vermont students the history of all of us. Yes. It's going to provide a much broader lens so that students can study the culture and the contributions of social and ethnic groups that have typically been marginalized or overlooked or discriminated against or oppressed, persecuted, so I think it's a game changer. Misrepresented. Misrepresented. Yeah. So, I do think it's a... I hope a game changer for Vermont schools and to have that be the first bill that I had a chance to dive into and see it move all the way through the process, I know that much work had gone before, and to see it signed by Governor Scott was really meaningful for me. And as a part of the bill, there is a place at the table specifically for the LGBTQ community. Very specifically. It's not that we are included as sort of afterthought. We were central to the bill. Yeah, both on the working panel that will take a look at the Vermont standards and then in the language of groups whose contributions will be studied. So, it's a pretty amazing piece of legislation. It is. I loved watching it outside the committee because as it was developing, it was really trying to figure out how to tell all of our stories and sort of as it was going into the oven to be cooked suddenly like the Jewish community was left out. Not intentionally, I think. It's just it was like, oh my God, with all the anti-Semitic stuff going on, of course that should be part of the conversation. And so it was... I loved the way the committee got a lot of different opinions at the table and integrated all of it. It was a beautiful process for me to watch. It was, the voices in the room, the testimony was very moving. That was my first legislative cry. I'm sure there will be many more to come. Yeah, that was very exciting. And I'll say it's exciting as well for having been here with the disappointment of not having been able to get it across the line previously because others had done work to try to move the bill and it had hit some roadblocks and to know that there was a commitment this year. This is going to happen and it's going to happen in the way that you described that it's going to be inclusive. It's not going to be, oh, put us in the bill so that the issue of race is demeaned or not adequately addressed, but it's going to include more groups of disenfranchised people. So that was very wonderful. Very powerful to see that. And it was Act 1, which means it's the first bill that made it through the entire legislative process. So that was phenomenal. You know, I also wanted to add in terms of meaningful moments. Every time I walk past the sign outside the state house on the Senate side commemorating civil unions or marriage equality, George Marker, most of the time I stop and sometimes at the very least I just give a little nod. And the day that you spoke on the house floor to commemorate the 10th anniversary of marriage equality, you gave such a moving tribute and that made me kind of, you know, digging, I remember that day so well. Far, far, far from being here. But it did make me, I took a little bit of time that night after you spoke on the floor and I looked up to see who voted for the bill. And it was, you know, that was my second legislative cry. And to see the members who voted for that bill who were still serving, you know, and to see some who were gone was very powerful to me. You know, because like I said, I remember that day very well. And it's, you know, why my wife and I are married. And that was a pretty neat moment. And I wanted to thank you for providing that to all of us. It was cool. Well, it's deeply meaningful to me, virtually every day. And I don't want to say something. One of the most powerful moments for me this year was you were producing your wife on the floor of the house just in the last week. And I sat there as you rose because your wife was there. And I introduced myself briefly to her before that. And I just realized how powerful it is that, and I wanted to say that one of the things that's most powerful for me is that to have a group of us here, to have us bringing our different experiences, our different lives into the house chamber. I remember early in the session, John, at one point you stood up and made an inquiry. I'm trying to remember the specific of it. And I was sitting there going, yeah, I don't have to do it all. But I meant that in a really, in a warm, appreciative way that you had spotted something and you were going to make sure that that got spoken to on the floor of the house. And it was very satisfying. And I remember that too. Oh, I think it was around the sexual harassment committee. Yes. It was. Is there anybody going to be on that sexual harassment committee who actually has the lived experience of being a survivor of a gay man or a lesbian woman or a trans person? Yeah, that's what it was. Talk about powerful moments. And you were there when there were about 105 outright kids. 92. 92 kids. Who came to visit us? Oh, only 92. Only 92. The 105 included the GSA faculty. They came with them. But we counted downstairs. I was going to say that. How profound that was. Being in the room with the kids afterwards, the impact of their sitting in the chamber with the out members coming and sharing stories, they walked away with this sense of, I can do this. I have a future. And that's because of you people. Well, which is amazing. It was because of everyone in the room. Yes. Which was beautiful. And that those many kids were there. And that their lived reality is so different than our lived reality. And we're different generations here even. And to me it's the gap just realizing like, I mean that marriage equality stuff you did Bill, it's profound. But many steps before that, but these kids had been born into now. That's right. Because of all the work. But to try to also share some of that history with them about what the AIDS crisis was really like or before that in the 70s and 80s where people could not be open. They couldn't be teachers. They couldn't, they could lose their apartments. They had no job protection. And we've come pretty far in one way, or in many ways. But it's still, I want them to understand the history because these rights, as we see now, federally are being taken away from transgender people in the military. And it's just lots more going to be stripped away. And so what was great is they could see that they could all dream to be us because we couldn't have dreamt that as young people. There were a few role models, but Harvey Milt got assassinated in my life. So the few role models there were, were disruptors in a way. And now it's the norm. You know, and when Emily described herself as deliciously queer to the youth. I represented right, she says, what a fabulous concept to say that to a young person. You can be deliciously queer and celebrate that. And that we don't have to hide it. And even though I missed it this year and it broke my heart because it's one of my favorite days of the whole session with Leslie. It's one of my favorite days. But I was out of town because my partner, my spouse was needing me to be with him. And I was so pleased to think, well, others are going to be there and it's not going to, it's going to keep moving forward. And I've heard from young people who, and from the adults within saying that that's part of the highlight of the day, hearing from those of us who are legislators. And when you say out legislators, I'm looking and there's like, we're only part of the group of out legislators in the house. And then there's senators who are out. And it's the way it should be that there are more of us different, coming from different parts of the state, bringing different experiences. And that makes it very rich. So, and I had, let you all know before we started, when you were first appointed, you were the only out member. I was. How have things changed? And how does it feel now to be a member of this growing LGBTQ caucus? And then I'm going to ask you what your first year experiences were like. Well, what was, because you had told me the history and was Ron before you? Right. No, but when. Ron Squires was the first openly gay member of the House of Senate. Right. But he had, he had died. Right. And was no longer a member of the House when I was appointed in April of 1994 by Governor Dean. Right. So Bill was the only out member. At that point, I was the only openly gay. But Ron was dying of AIDS. And didn't the Speaker of the House go down there and swear him in? He swore him in. He swore in. He swore he died for the second term. And Bill Clinton called him to congratulate him on his reelection. Yeah. And just for people to remember that Ron played a very important role. We were fighting at that point for the gay rights bill to add sexual orientation to the non-discrimination causes. I was in the State House, not as a legislator, but I was the head of a mental health agency and an out gay man. And I just, you know, I came to talk to legislators to say, this is important. This will make a difference. And Ron. We are the real people that you're debating on this floor. Right. Ron played a very important role. Again, at the time he was the only openly gay member. Right. There were, I think it's important for us to acknowledge in a way, there were other legislators who were gay or lesbian, but for whom it was truly not safe to be out. And so I don't look back with a sense of criticism. I mean, I know some of these have become friends over the years. Right. And they sat there really trying to figure out what made sense in their world at that time. But there was something very important about Ron standing up on the floor of the house during the gay rights bill and he gave a speech that I know made a difference in terms of passing that bill. I mean, his kind, as I interrupt you, his comment was, I can't begin to tell you how it felt to be sitting here and listening to you debate whether my life has meaning and work. And he, it was the second year of the biennium, so he had already, this was the second year that he had served with them, so they were getting to know him. So the impact of his standing saying, I'm the person you're talking about had an incredible impact. So how does it feel now? Well, it's, I mean, that was kind of my experience too, during the civil unions experience, the civil unions debate, I felt like at times my name was Representative Bill Lippert, the only open-gate member of the General Assembly. It was all like, kind of like every time... Here's the tagline. Yeah, and it was, and it was, it was fine, because it reflected the reality of the situation. But I gotta tell you, it's so much better. It's so much better. Seriously, it's not like, oh no, no, no, take, what about that? Can't I be in the spotlight? No, it's like, we get, we get to be there. And one of the things that I noticed over the last number of years is that folks get to be, I mean, I've been on the Judiciary Committee for many, many years, and now I'm on the Health Care Committee. And every committee... You chair the Health Care Committee. I chair the Health Care Committee. Yeah, I chair the Health Care Committee. I chair the Judiciary Committee, no question. Exactly. But what's also been wonderful is for people to serve on the Education Committee, or to serve on Human Services Committee, or to serve in another committee. And it's amazing how there are important issues, or the Appropriations Committee. Yes. Where decisions get made where we can't want them. Not any one of us could be on all those committees at the place where the decisions are getting made to speak up to impact what's happening there. But when there's at least six, seven of us in the House, and at least three more in the Senate that I, you know, when I think about who's listing, that puts us in a lot of important places, and the opportunities become that much greater, and that's part of what I love. The reason I was saying, you know, you're the chair, and to own it is you were the first openly gay chair of a legislative committee, which... I think that's true. Which indicates that the legislature, your colleagues, were able to look at the work that you were doing, what it is that you were providing to the legislature and saying, we need to advance this. We need to advance still. So it was an indication of the acceptance of sexual orientation gender identity, you as a legislature, but also extending out to us as communities. So that's... But it does look fabulous with that crown on. Okay. He has the crown. He's the chair. Okay, so John... No, he doesn't. Yes, you do. I'm not watching. I have one that I'll lend you. I have a ti or two. So what was your first year like? Well, right now, it's disheartening. Because? In the last two weeks, because in my committee, we've worked on minimum wage... General house and military affairs. General housing, military affairs. We do affordable housing. We did the National Guard. And we did... Which was not an easy process this year. It wasn't easy. Liquor control, the lottery, anything that doesn't fit anywhere else comes to us. Minimum wage. Minimum wage and paid family leave. And those are very big issues and are very important to me emotionally as well as... And I've watched... I was told by the chair and my committee, when it leaves our committee, you have to let it go. That's a hard question. And it goes to other committees that's going to mutate and change. And right now, the Senate has paid family leave and we have minimum wage. And I'm watching them kind of disintegrate. And I hope they come together. And I hope that we actually offer the people of Vermont something that's worthy for people to be recognized for their work and to be paid a living wage because I think it's essential that we do that. And so, you know, two weeks from now I could be cheering and say, oh my God, look at how this all came together. I mean, you know how to do this. I've seen less is not better. It's less for me. I'm going to give a quick plug for your committee because you responded to a request because the bill that was defining family left a lot of members of our community out. And you came up with some very creative language to include us. That's great. Yeah. Well, Representative Deanna Gonzalez is on the committee as well. And we just thought, well, let's broaden it to be what is current, what is now. And if the other committee is narrow the focus, that's fine. But let's not start with the narrow focus. Let's start with the us with the we in this. And so I hope that survives. But John, that's an example of what you and Deanna could do exactly at the table in that room that would not have happened or it would have had to happen in a much more difficult way of us lobbying or having our allies speak up on behalf of us. That you were at the table was a profoundly important way to achieve the getting the language that made sense for our community into that bill. And you should take great satisfaction that regardless of what comes next comes next. No, I think it's in there. As you say, I just, you know, we're watching five years to get to $15 an hour doesn't, you know, but it's a very wide tent in that 150 member house. So it's, I don't know what we're going to do with that. I'm still hopeful though. So Kathleen on education first year. Well, what is it? What is it? Other than you need paper and pen to take notes. Other than I take notes on everything. You know, I'm going to, I guess I have a slightly different perspective on the legislative process than John and maybe it's just because I'm an eternal optimist. But I have been primarily reassured by watching how the legislative process works. To me, crafting legislation should be slow. It should take time. It should encompass many voices and many points of view. It should fall apart before it gets put back together. So that, you know, in the end, hopefully it gets put back together in a way that is able to cross the finish line. And so, you know, when I watch bills, I have moments of elation as they move in a direction that I approve of. And I have moments of despair as bits get taken or bits get added that I don't like. But to me anyway, so far, and I know I'm very new at this, I'm a big fan of the concept of a citizen's legislature. And I like the fact that the process is messy and slow and rainbow-colored and, you know, that bills have to suffer before they triumph. To me, that's the way it should be. Do you feel that your voice is being heard? I mean, you know, I'm one of 150 members. So, you know, I'm trying to be realistic about the right size of my voice. You know, on certain bills, I've tried really hard to have a larger influence on other bills I mostly listen. You know, it's important to me that my voice be one of many. I'm going to fly in your jet stream with optimism. I like that. I need that for these things. So, for next year, is there something that you're hoping is going to be taken up, an issue that you're hoping the legislature is going to be debating that hasn't happened this year? Because there are bills that you're hoping are going to make it to the finish line this year. But what are the things that you would like to work on next year? Well, let me pick up on both in a way. Because, so, I've been around and been disappointed and elated many times. And so, I've tried to convey to some of my colleagues on the committee that that's part of the process. It is part of the process. When we're done with something to me, we think, oh, we've done perfection because we've worked so hard on it and how could possibly, how could anybody possibly mess with what we just did? Well, I guess. And then they do. Yeah, it's part of the process. But I also am aware that there's things that, as an example this year, outright Vermont lost some of their funding. And in our committee, one of the things I was pleased about and one of the things I get to do as the chair and, like you say, claim my role as the chair. It's like, okay, when we talk about suicide prevention, we're not going to talk about suicide without talking about LGBTQ youth and queer youth and what that means. And I can remember someone coming into the committee in the last, not this year, but last year as we talked about suicide, the suicide prevention. And we were talking about the study that's done with high school students, the risk. Behavior risk survey. Behavior risk survey. And someone was testifying and they said, well, and they were talking about how LGBTQ youth are four times plus more likely to have made self done, self harm in the last few months. They've been more likely to have made an active attempt at suicide. They're more likely and trans the same. And it's more and more and more. And someone made the comment who was testifying, well, now we know that and we've got to figure out what to do. And I just couldn't take it. I was like, wait a minute. I've been looking at this for 30 or 40 years. I can tell you what we need to do. I can tell you exactly right now what we need to do. We need to change the homophobic society in which these young people are growing up. It's like enough already. It's not a mystery to me. We've been doing it and we need to do more of it. Which is why H3 and Act 1. Yeah. And these are all pieces of that. And so I advocated when we did budget recommendations from the Health Care Committee to the Appropriations Committee and a whole host of things. Talk about disappointment where there's not enough money and money is the medium that actually makes big changes. We were hugely disappointed. I was, you know, I wasn't totally surprised, but I was particularly disappointed there was no money for outright in the House budget. But you know what I heard just today? Me too. Yeah. It's in the Senate. Is it? Because the Education Committee, that was one of my moments of down in the dumps. The Education Committee also recommended funding for outright and I heard it was out. That was one of those moments of like, what do you mean it's out? And the Senate appropriation may have added to the agency of education. And I said, okay, I know the Education Committee and Education Committee, but why shouldn't the Health Care Committee weigh in on this as well? And so we put into our recommendations to the Appropriations Committee that we should in fact give funding to outright Vermont because LGBTQ youth, queer youth are at such high risk. And so it didn't happen in our bill, disappointing, but you know, we laid the groundwork. So when they go to conference committee. It's there. It's there on the Senate side in some way. And I think there's going to, you know, there will be some funding for outright. And I think that we have to claim our part in it even as we laid some groundwork. And you know, we're not the end, we're not the end of the line by any stretch on this. But that's an example. That's great news. Of the kinds of things that we can do. Yes. And we, and to recognize that we have allies. I mean, I've said so many times that when I was the only openly gay member of the General Assembly, I had one vote. I didn't pass civil unions. I didn't pass marriage equality. By then we had a handful of us. It requires allies. And what we do, our interactions on a daily basis in the building actually transforms other people's lives. I could tell you story after story of legislators who came here with no intention. In fact, they said, oh, don't let me get embroiled in anything around gay or lesbian. Just a catch. And, well, John Edwards, who was on the Civil Unions Committee, came here with State Trooper, retired State Trooper. We went around the table and I remember him saying, I'm concerned about the border patrol and make sure border safety. And he's from Swanton. And I'm a Republican. I'm a retired State Trooper. And I'm going, I'm a Democrat. I'm a substance abuse counselor and a mental health counselor. And I'm an openly gay man and I'm here because of civil rights issues. And we looked at each other and I know this is going to be good. Well, we become fast friends. And he voted for civil unions knowing that he would be defeated. And to this day, he and I stay in touch. And to this day, he has absolutely no regrets. It was one of the most profound and important opportunities in his life, even though he missed terribly being here as a legislator, but he knew he changed people's lives, our lives. He did the right by people. And on that, on that, it's been our half hour that you didn't think we would have enough time. We need to have you and maybe a couple other people come back and we just spend the time talking about history. So with that, we're back. And we're making more history. And I think, you know, we're living history. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Hi. And we're back with Senator Debbie Ingram, who is here on behalf of the Senate because they've been on the floor and hotly debating bills in your best interest. And now we're going to ask Deb what those bills might be. Oh boy, yes. What is it that you were debating today that took the bulk of your day? Well, we did big big bills like the appropriations bill and the transportation bill. We were spending lots of money and the fee bill for professional license fees. But the one that we were just working on was H57, which guarantees reproductive rights to all Vermonters. So that was very important. This was a second reading? Second reading. Yes. And it passed. Yeah, it passed. Did you do a road talk? 24 to 6. It passed, yes. Okay. That's pretty much the same as Constitutional Amendment 5, which was reproductive liberty. Right, yes. So it was a predictable response. It was, yes. Yeah. So when the House was here, they made reference to your appropriations bill and that you all on the Senate side done something that they weren't able to accomplish. Yes, yeah. We restored base funding for outright Vermont. Okay. So, yes, yeah. And that's gotten support on the Senate floor. It looks as though it will still be there when it goes to Committee of Conference. Yes, yes, it will. And then we work on people to keep it there. Well, that's the key, really, I think. The Senate budget is actually a little bit higher than either so I think we're going to get pushback from probably both. But, but we will hold firm to the, to the outright amount. And it was also a rumor that in your great wisdom you might have put money in for a new position for the Human Rights Commission. That's right. Yes, we did. Yeah. A new director position of outreach, education and outreach so that some of these laws that were, that were passing these regulations and these programs that were instituting to help the monitors know what their rights are and how they can appeal if their rights are, are denied them. We want to make sure that people actually know about these things. So we need a new person, a new staff member to be in charge of that. We need someone who has time that good. I mean, looking at those two pieces in tandem, you know, one of the conversations was the behavioral risk survey and how we know that students of color and LGBTQ-identified students are at greater risk for this whole host of, you know, bullying to suicidal plans, etc. Human Rights Commission, I mean, for years we've been looking at how they could have greater involvement with harassment and bullying in schools. And one of the difficulties was always, everything that they were already doing, they were pretty much just tapped out for what they had for resources they really couldn't take on one more. So, thank you for, you know, helping our youth. Now, you were also lead sponsor of a bill that I understand has finally been signed by the governor for which there may have been a lovely ceremony on the steps last Wednesday with singing and drumming and food. Right. You were the lead sponsor of the Indigenous People's Day. That's right. I was, yeah. Yes, actually got a funny story because in 2016 I was elected. Yeah. So, my very first day in the Senate was, I think, you know, January 3rd or 4th, 2017. And I got, that was the day I got sworn in, everybody got sworn in, and my family and we were having a big, wonderful day. And we were standing in line at the cafeteria for lunch, and one of my constituents who's also a friend and a member of the tribe, the Ebnaki tribe came up to me and he said, he said, you know, Debbie, can I ask you to introduce some legislation? I said, yeah, absolutely, that's why I'm here. Interesting, you should be right. Exactly, right. And then as every year signed in executive proclamation, observing Indigenous People's Day in place of Columbus Day, but we could really use a bill that would make that permanent. And I said, absolutely, I'm your girl, absolutely, I will introduce that legislation. I will sign on for this one. So, I had led to council drafted and introduced it in 2017 and it didn't move out of committee. I talked about it in 2018 and thought it was going to come out of committee, but it didn't. And so, I reintroduced it when I got reelected in 2018. So, what was different this year? Well, it's interesting, but I really think that, and this is I think sort of a good thing that's come out of bad stuff is that, you know, what's going on in the country with so many people of color and so many different groups realization by people who are, you know, good folks that they're going to have to step up and to be more assertive and supportive of other people who are getting attacked. So, I think, you know, in a kind of ironic way, all this horrible stuff we're having to put up with now has actually gave momentum to this. That's right. The house debate was interesting in the sense that there were a number of white representatives who stood to say yes, there should be an Indigenous People's Day, but we don't want to give up Columbus Day. Mm-hmm. You know, and as I was listening to the debate, it was that sense of entitlement. Yes. Right. You know, it's okay if you have a little room over here, but I'm not really willing to give up space for you. Mm-hmm. Which was the same with H3, the ethnic and social equity studies bill, which you were a sponsor of in the Senate. Yes. That had the same intent, the same impetus. That's right, yes, absolutely. Yeah, that was, you know, I sponsored the sort of companion bill in the Senate, but it was the house version and it got passed, but that was a group of people of many different ethnic and racial communities of the disabilities community, the LGBTQ community, and then the Jewish and Muslim communities, and they all got together, you know, really to their credit, because I think what often happens too is not only do people, you know, white privileged people of entitlement, you know, feel that they can't give anything up. They also try to do everything they can to make sure that those of us who are part of, you know, marginalized communities don't agree with each other, you know, so I really, I really think it's wonderful right, right, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, right. So, or I have it worse than you do or something, you know, I didn't realize there was a higher right discrimination, right, but sometimes unfortunately that's been my experience, but when the Senate had the bill, you did some interesting things with the language for H3 to ensure that the LGBTQ community remained in the bill and remained in the bill in regards to oversight and debt Yes, yeah, yes. That was, yeah, that was an interesting thing that we had to work out with the agency of education and with how schools collect data, because we wanted to include in the bill tracking, bullying, instance of bullying and that sort of thing, but on the other hand, you also don't want to invade a student's privacy and people aren't required to, you know, identify, identify their identity or their sexual orientation, you know, as a matter of course, but when they experience some kind of difficult situation, then, you know, we want to be able to make sure that we can trace the reasoning for, you know, the bullying. And what you have put in place is, you know, the student doesn't have to disclose what you're looking at is the incident of harassment or bullying itself. What was that based upon? It was the perception. This is why I did this. Yes, exactly. So you're on the Health and Welfare Committee. That's right, yes. That had to be actually a difficult committee to be sitting on this session looking at, you know, the Constitutional Amendment 5 about personal reproductive liberty in age 57, the right to abortion. You got deluged by people on both sides of that issue. And in a way that we really haven't seen for a while. It's true. It's true. Well, you know, because Ruby Wade's been in effect for about 45 years. So it's, you know, I think that is actually a good, has been a good, you know, mediator. Yes, it's been a good, you know, kind of law of the land, you know, because it's allowed, you know, states to sort of handle it the way they would. And it's kind of it's, but now, you know, again, things are getting stirred up and, you know, uglyness. This was the first time in a very long time that the Vermont Legislature has talked about right to choose in a larger sense. I mean, before it was about a, you know, parental notification bill or very narrow aspects. This was the first time it was like, okay, let's open the issue for conversation. Had the people really difficult sitting in there because there was the brief ones that I sat in on, there was an incredible amount of emotion. Well, it is a very emotional issue. Yes. Targeted it you all. Well, that's true. Yes. Yeah. That goes with the territory. I'm finding out the longer I serve in the Senate. But yes, yeah, these emotional issues are, I mean, we felt the same you know, somebody's rights and their behavior towards others, you know, kind of intersecting like that. You know, you're going to have an emotional piece of legislation. Okay. Anything else that went through the Senate or is going through the Senate, that you're really excited that, yes, we're debating this issue. Yes, we're going to do something about this. I know that you had paid family leave in minimum ways. Yes, especially maybe for your audience and for, yeah, for our community. I would point to the waiting period for handguns because you referenced already that youth risk behavior survey. Right. And definitely, you know, LGBTQ youth are more likely to commit suicide, sadly. And so, this was a measure to really try to give somebody who's in a situation a breather before they just walk home with a gun and decide to take their own lives. And impulse reaction. Yes, yeah. Here's the situation. I'm not sure how to respond. Here's this impulsive decision which, if it was 24 to 48 hours, I might be looking at it differently. Yes. Okay, the Senate was looking at a 48 hour waiting period or did it go down to 24? 24, yeah. Okay. Yeah. But also, and in health and welfare, I've been, we've been working quite a bit on the whole idea about what to do with marijuana and how, you know, how much to legalize it and how much to regulate it and that kind of thing. But in health and welfare, we were particularly concerned about the prevention aspect of it and making it, you know, nicotine and, that they really have information. Yeah, that's right. Here are your choices and this is the impact of it. Yes. Both immediately and long term. And long term, that's right. Because when you're 16, you're invincible. Yes, that's right. You don't, you don't envision being us. I know. Maybe it's this age. That's right. That's right. Well, and again, according to the coping mechanism. Now, has family leave? It just got voted out of economic development so you'll start debating that tomorrow? Not tomorrow, but soon. Yeah. This week, yes. Because one of, when it was first introduced and looking at the language in the bill, you know, how family was being defined left a lot of people in our community outside of being eligible, the house came up with some really creative language to put us back in. My understanding is that the Senate has pretty much kept those definitions so that Yes. You know, we might actually get to use this. Yes, I know. Wouldn't that be exciting? Exactly. Definitely, yeah. Yes, that's true about the definitions. I mean, I'm a little distressed that the actual medical portion for the worker has, you know, I understand the impetus of our committee in the Senate trying to come up with something cost. You know, they think, well, they think we'll actually, you know, get time with the governor. But, you know, I, Oh, that's right, he has to sign this. I know, I know, and he might have his own proposed song. Yes, but I kind of like to see us pass what we think is a position later rather than kind of negotiate with ourselves up front, you know. Okay. Anything else that's gone through that's been really exciting for you? You had six constitutional amendments. That's right, yeah. You know, you've had several that moved on. The one about equality of rights hasn't come up yet. No, that's true for, yeah, yes, kind of our own ERA. But, we're in there as well. That's right. We're in there as well, yes, definitely. But, well, the slavery amendment, I'm also very proud of, I was the lead sponsor on that as well. And, The house is debating that now. Yes, yeah, the house is working on that now. But, you know, again, I think it's one of those things where if you're a white privileged person, in the Senate, but, if you're a person of color, you know, if you could put yourself in somebody else's shoes and see, that entitlement. Yeah, what this language, you know, really refers to and the hurt that it caused and the continuing idea of, you know, we don't care what you think and we don't care for your feelings. You know, you can come here or not, we don't really care. I mean, I think that's the message that we're getting a language out. It needs to go. Yes, yeah. Despite the argument of the historical and archival integrity. Exactly. If you're interested in the original version, you can go to the archives and look at it. Exactly. That's right. We're not getting rid of history books. We will make this accessible to you. That's right, that's right. So one of the things that we had talked about with the members of the House is, you know, one of the people who is our longest-serving out-legislator. And when he was appointed, he was the only out-legislator, which is not the case anymore. Oh, yeah. So, what has been your experience in the Senate and how has this felt? Being an out-legislator, you know, does your voice get heard? Are you included colleague-supportive constituents? Yes, I, well, All of that. All of that, indeed, yeah. No, I have felt a simple question. Supportive. Supportive. That's right, it's just really easy. But there are three of us in the Senate, but it's great to know that the other, I forget now how many, there are about six in this House. It's great to know they're there and we do, you know, kind of support one another and help one another. But, you know, it's been, well, I just feel like I'm on a continual mission to sort of remind people that we're, you know, I mean, that's what I feel like we have to do because, I mean, one of the first times I stood up to speak in my first term, somebody actually told, they told just a funny kind of anecdote about, like he said, she said, with regard to marriage, you know, and I stood up and I said, you know, I just remind the senator that it could be, he said, he said, or she said, she said, you know, but, but really, you know, making the point, there was a point, you know, and, you know, I find I have to do that sometimes and, that's, you know, that's okay. I want to just remind people we're here. I just want to say one of the other things that you do, merely by virtue of being an out legislator, you met with the outright youth during leadership day, 92 youth, and what I told people is the first time we sponsored something, they were 15 youth. Well, no, and we were incredibly excited we had that many. Yeah, yeah. But, 92 youth. Oh, I know, that's like one of our favorite days of the year. I think all of us feel the same way and it's wonderful to be with the young people and to talk to them and just to see, to see how many of them there are. It's so, so awesome. You look up in the House Chamber filled with students. It's like, where did you come from? Yeah, yeah, it's so great. And from being in the room with them downstairs, you know, when they left with all of you talking with them, they walked away with this sense of, I could do that. Yeah, that's great. That sense of possibility. And I'm so glad. Yeah, that's what we really want. And we need more, we need our voices out there constantly. You mean we get to go out and do the recruitment for which we've always been accused? That's right. We have to get the microwave oven. Right? Exactly. All right. Okay, so this is only the first year of the biennium. Right. We've got another year coming up. What are you hoping is going to come up next year? That hasn't been discussed yet. Because, you know, there are things you're hoping are going to make to the finish line this year. Yes. Well, I really want to do some investigation about, you know, some of our social service programs. You know, we've been, we put some money in the appropriations to kind of shore up, you know, some of these. But I'd like to really take up more in-depth look at this whole concept of a guaranteed minimum income, which I know is a very radical kind of thing. We do have one Democratic presidential nominee, Yang, who's, that's his whole platform, you know. But, you know, really looking at, I mean, it just, when I'm looking at all these numbers and stuff, and I'm thinking about, you know, the remonters that many of them have, you know, they need the help of some, you know, intersecting overlapping programs. You know, I'm just thinking, wow, you actually came up with some, some version of, you know, a true systems approach that regardless of how you enter the system, you get the full benefit of the entire system. Yes, yeah. Yeah. Last session, you were one of the people involved in looking at, for healthcare, primary care providers. And as I recall, it ended up merely being a study commission. That's right, that's right, and this is the results of that come back and what might that lead you to doing? Yes, well, you know, we've been doing a lot of evaluation of the accountable care organization that we have and the whole all-payer system that we have, so that, you know, we have Medicaid and Medicare and commercial insurers, you know, all paying into the same kind of pot and we're now we keep people, a region of people healthy rather than doing this fee-for-service every time somebody's sick, you know, so that actually is having That's a radical concept in itself. I know, it really is. And Vermont's a leader we've discovered, you know, across the country. In many ways. It's true, it's true, but I, you know, I'm actually finding that if we continue to make sure that system, the system change is healthy, we're going to get to some of those goals that we had in coming up with the universal primary care system because primary care is is lifted to the highest, you know, priority in a system like that where you're trying to keep people healthy. Well, in thinking in terms of our community, you know, how many times do I need to, one, go in and then be out to my provider and then in some instances then in turn train my provider on what it is they should be giving me for services or what I'm really not going to need, but and that's what I mean when I sat in on the committee's hearings last year, that was the part that really got me was looking at I have a person who's going to coordinate my care. They're going to know me not only by virtue of this clinical record, but the person in front of it. And that's what's really going to make the difference. You saw me three months ago, I'm coming in now and wait a minute, you look different what's happening here versus I'm being sent to this other party or I'm being seen by somebody else who doesn't have that primary reference. Right, right. Yes, yeah. So what else, anything? So, well, yeah, well, I'm sure that there are other things. We should be doing climate change, I think. There was lead in the water in schools. Lead in the water, yeah, we're hoping to get that out very soon. Yes. We're going to pay to ensure that champ has a home and she's really happy. Has a clean tub too. Yeah, it's a clean tub. That's right, yes, yeah, yes, those are continue to be important, definitely. So the question, I didn't ask the members of the house, but since we have time, do you intend on doing this as well? Well, I'm enjoying it. It's got your attention and yeah. Yes, one of my southern friends was teasing me when I first got elected. He goes, you're really liking this, aren't you? And I said, yeah, I pretty much like it. He goes, yeah, you're like a pig in slop. I'm not sure that's quite the reference I would make. So, yeah, no, my colleagues, I like, you know, it's a real privilege to be at the table when decisions are being made. And I enjoy doing the research and hearing the testimony and really understanding issues in depth. And yeah, I'm very, I'm very happy, very pleased to be here. And the fact that someone from within our communities who is proud of who they are as a member of this community is the voice at the table. Yes. So, thank you. Oh, thank you. We're looking at this becoming at least an opportunity to invite you back just to talk. Well, I'm always happy to be here. Thank you. Thank you.