 Hi there and welcome to the new podcast. I'm Jesse Cannon. So today I'm with Elliot Douglas who goes by the musical moniker Maggs. That's M period, A period, G period, S period. And Elliot is really, really interesting. And it's an interesting story how he got here. So I work on like 30 different projects a week, 25 on the low end. I'm not just saying that it's a big number. I work on a lot of stuff. And I'm not saying that to brag. I'm saying it's just for context that I don't remember a lot of it after I'm done with it. And some things leave an impression on you because they're pretty strikingly good. And one of those things was I mastered a new single for Elliot called Smile. And the song got said to me, I was like, damn, this is great. My friend Paul Besch recommended him. Paul's a great producer. He's on an audio version of this podcast that should be out or already is out. I don't remember. Way to go, Jesse. Anyway, Paul's an amazing producer up in Buffalo. He recommended to me. I work on it. And then the other day my email, I get a pitch to have a guest on this podcast. And the publicist recommends that I have Elliot Maggs on to talk about his new single, Smile. And I'm like, oh, that sounds familiar. I feel like I checked this artist out. And I like, I remember I kind of liked him. I can't place who the artist is. So then I look and I'm like, oh, oh, you mastered this. This is why it sounds familiar. So I looked at his story. I looked at his stuff and I'm like, wow, there's two things that I think is really interesting with him is that like he makes really interesting, good, colorful music. Like it really, I get into this, but like his music evokes an image to me that not a lot of things do. And I really enjoy that about it. And then as well, he has a lot, a lot, a lot of plays. And we talk all about that. We talk about how he came to have a manager in a really, really unconventional weird way. And yeah, we just have a good time chatting about music. He's a great dude. And I encourage you to check him out when you're done watching this. So let's roll the tape. You meet some total fucking square nerd who doesn't know anything about music. How do you explain to them what you're doing with your life? Yeah, so I'll typically say like I am a solo artist and that kind of entails like more so like how I view myself, I guess. And that kind of just like an all encompassing term because I do so much of the work myself, you know, like I have a very like DIY attitude and approach to the way that I like handle my career. So like I'll usually say like, yeah, I'm a musician and I'm also a producer. And I'm also like a mixing engineer. And like, you know, I kind of just go through the gather of things that all the hats I wear in this project. So I think that that's a great launching point. You play music that if I had just hit play on it, one of your songs, I'd be like, oh, this band is great, but you're not a band. Tell me about that. Yeah, I think the whole idea behind it being kind of like a solo project was that I had spent so much of my like early years just like playing in bands with like my friends and only being able to get to a certain point just because like everybody's priority priorities are constantly evolving and changing. And like the band may be the one thing that you're going for super hard for like a year or two and you might put out a few EPs, but ultimately like, you know, if somebody wants to be a teacher, it's like who you to stop them from pursuing that. You know what I mean? I kind of just got tired of constantly being a part of someone else's like vision, I guess. Yeah. And I was like, I've been playing music for a long time just by myself, like recording myself in the basement like for years and years, like throughout like being in other bands and stuff. It kind of just got to a point where to me it was a necessity. And yeah, I kind of just like, I had the means and I just kind of went for it. So with that, you know, it's like that funny thing. So if you take this like scientifically, I don't think music always is scientific as much as I'm a fucking nerd and love science. Sure. Like you'd go, okay, well, you know, scientifically the reason bands work is it's like four or five heads coming to something to make a sound. And that's why bands sound so good as it's these four cents, but I listened to your music and I'm like, man, this is fucking working. And I should say to the audience where I went back while I may have heard you in a professional context, first of all, whenever I master something, I listen and try to get a feel for what the artist did last. I was like, okay, this is working. How do you make it work? What do you do and what's your process to get this to sound the way it does? It's kind of, it's taken me a really long time to actually figure that out. Like this is probably the first time that I've ever had like a concise answer for that question. Oh, good, good, good. Always been such a like, I just kind of do it and then it just happens and I can't control it. But I think with this album that I'm working on currently, like I have put a lot of like time into like what I'm referencing for each song and like what I want it to sound like. And not just like, I mean, if you're talking in the technical sense of like going into the studio, like you're gonna set up one drum kit and use one set of mics and leave them up in the same way for every song. And like you get like a certain sound for every single track, you know what I mean? And it's kind of like similar because everything's exactly the same. And I think this time it's like I approached it of like I want this song to feel like this. So I'm going to use these drums or like I'm a drummer by choice. The first thing I always think about records about like what did the drums sound like? Same. So that's kind of just like why I immediately I'm thinking like, okay, well with drum tones it's like, you know, I wanted to have this kind of dry like, you know retro feel or like these ones I want them to sound like fucking like super like based on a hallway like, you know, like big Zeppelin drums or whatever. And so I kind of just approached it more from like the side of like, how would I produce myself? I guess. And I kind of looked at my songs objectively and was like, this song needs to kind of carry this kind of weight and energy. So I need to think about that more critically and not just get so caught up in like making it actually as the musician because like when you're doing the music and the art part of it, like you want to be kind of flowing creatively. And I was like, I need to be a little more like analytical about what I'm doing this time, you know? So analytical how is it seeing it through different lenses? Like what will tell me about the analysis self-production is fucking brutal. It really is. I don't recommend it and I don't think it's true. But I think for me, like I'm not like a control freak per se, but I'm definitely like, I like to know what's going on. And I don't really like other people like touching my shit. You know what I mean? Like I just, I kind of already know what I want it to do. So like I can just do it myself. And that's the whole reason I got into recording the first place. So being analytical with my own songs, it's like it's not enough to just like make the songs. It's not enough to just like play the guitar and like put a microphone in front of the amp and everything. It's like, why? Why are you doing it this way? You know what I mean? You know, like, okay. So like an example, it's like there's a song where I wanted kind of like a strat tone, but I didn't have a strat. That's a hard one. Yeah. Like you can't really do it, but I did, I do have a telecaster. And I knew that like if I set the tone knob in a certain place on my telecaster, it kind of sounds like a strat. So, you know, you have to kind of think about it that way. It's like, I can get really close to a strat tone just from like using the things that I have and like I can get the tones that I want. And it's not like, like a secondary thing. Like we're kind of coming at this from like tone first and then like, you know, fill in the blanks with the artistry as you're going, you know? I like that. It is funny because like at some point like I think I was 14 years into like producing till I bought my first strat. Like that thing of like a man, I faked it a lot of times. Sure you think. It's like, you know, that thing of like, well, we're going to have to do this. Maybe that pedal will do it. It's like, oh, and then you get the strat. You're like, all right, but you could also get cool things. So that does bring me to one of the other things I think is really impressive with you is that I'm going to be the old man here. I'm going to be the 42 year old man and talk to the youth. That's not even that old man I got. Well, I don't, I'm not self-conscious. In my mind, I'm 24. Sure, sure. But here would be why I would say this. With the younger people I hear making music like you, the thing I have the biggest qualm with is there's very little color and character to the tones. It's all very bland. It sounds like everybody else. Whereas I hit play on your music and I'm like, ooh, these are vibrant, awesome colors. And like, I remember when I was mastering your song, I was like, oh, I love this. I'm going to make a few different versions because he already gave me great colors. So we then would just like, well, what does this look like a little bit more of this color or that color or a little bit more distortion? And that's like my favorite thing in the world is like when somebody already has the color, then you can just be like, okay, well, here's a few ways we can go in those directions. Talk to me about how you got to bringing all this color to your music. Because you could sit with a guitar and play for 30 hours and then you could kind of riff. A lot of people can't make color very well, even if they take a long time with it. Yeah, so that's actually something that I really like talking about. Cause like, I think I might honestly be kind of synesthetic. While you and I know what that is, can you explain that to the audience? To the best of my ability, synesthesia is basically like a brain disorder where you associate like, sometimes it's colors and like music or sometimes it's numbers and colors and like you just have like some wires crossed basically where you can physically like see or like sound or numbers are like tangible to you. And it manifests in kind of a way where like you can see it in like a color, like a shape. For me, like I've always had such, as much as I'm a musician, I just enjoy listening to music. I listen to like a ton of music like every single day. Like every song has kind of its own color to it. And like I feel like that saying a song has color is kind of an understatement because like usually it's like very specific colors, you know? And I have, it's taken me a while, but like I've learned how to sort of apply that to my own music. And the song that we, you and I have been talking about, Smile. Which is your new single that should be out when this comes out to give you the pass of the ball here. Yeah, yeah, perfect, perfect plug. That song to me is like, it's black and there's like blues and greens. And I get this like really like, like strong feeling of like, like almost like loneliness. You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think like when I was playing the song, like just when I wrote the chorus and like I had the guitar with it, like it was like, I just immediately saw whatever colors I was gonna see for the song. And like I carried that all the way through the process of recording the instruments. And even like the editing, like how things kind of like the different things that happen in the background that aren't like a guitar or a bass, it's like, you know, and then even like using synthesizers to bring out different colors and different parts. It's a very like visceral thing for me personally. So I just, I really enjoy being able to do that kind of stuff and, and tie it in with my visuals and create this like sort of world that people can enter into. And even if it's just like, even if it's just like, okay, so the next song that I'm working on right now, to me, it's like, it's a really like, like a lot of greens, like an avocado, you know? So like when I'm working through the song, it's like all my tracks and pro tools are like green, you know, and when I'm thinking about like what I want the visuals to look like, I'm referencing this color palette that I have kind of determined in my head, you know? So it's, yeah, it's kind of, it's honestly less of like an intentional thing. It's kind of happened a lot of the time. Well, you have a vision of guidance of these things that while other people can't see it, they can't see what the green is. And you know, it's like always that funny thing is like a different, you know, just we all get into arguing with somebody with somebody who's like, that's purple or like that's blue, dude. Like you have a particular color that you're seeing here. So talk to me then, like, let's, you know, so I think like there's the funny things that with music, you and I can communicate in this way we get up but some people are like, all right, you metaphor called fucking nerds, whatever you're talking about. So if I got even more granular though, I would say that your tones on your records actually sound much more like you know what you're doing engineering-wise and getting tone-wise. Do you have a background in any of that? Like where does that come from? I started recording out of necessity. It was about 16. I was handed like, like an old like Roland digital recorder, like a, I think it was like a VS 880 by one of my bandmates and it was just like, I bought this, like learn how to use it so that we can record music, you know, make everything. I'm like, okay. So he just gave me that and like the manual, I read the manual and I guess before all that, like I had a copy of Adobe Audition that I was running on a PC, like the early, early, early Adobe Audition and like a radio sec mic. And I was just like- I like that you're laughing about that because we should laugh at early audition. Yeah, it was like, I got it from a cousin. One of my cousins was just like here, it's a demo and he gave me like a radio check, like a, just like a mic. I don't know, like a plug into the jacket was crazy. Everything was in mono. But that was like what I first started getting interested in recording and I started taking it seriously by about 17, 18. Spent a lot of time, like just making EPs and like making records with local bands. And like I spent a lot of time in the studio and the whole time I was in the studio, like I was just thinking like, I could literally do this or like I could be doing this better than the person who was actually doing it, you know? That's always the worst feeling. Yeah, I was like, I mean, these drums sound okay, but like I bet they could sound better, you know? And I just eventually got to the point where like I could go into a recording studio and like get the tones I wanted to get regardless of who the engineer was, especially with drums. Like again, I was mostly drumming at this point. So I felt like I was pretty knowledgeable about like how I felt on the drums. And I think from there, like I ended up just starting to record more at my house. I did like a, like a specked out PC build. And without knowing anything about computers, mind you, like it was like, I guess I'll just kind of figure this out. Had like a little four channel interface and just like kind of went for it and then ended up doing some local bands demos. Like it's kind of the classic story, you know, kind of just start. Very similar to mine. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. But that was basically my upbringing and like it was a lot of just trial and error, a lot of recording myself and like making horrible recordings and like making good recordings and recording my friends for free. You know what I mean? But it's a lot of that kind of stuff. I did go to a music college for a semester as a college in Buffalo called Villa Maria College. And like... Is that the one Dave Friedman teaches at? Yeah, yeah it is. Did you get to work? Did you get to be in a class with Dave Friedman? No, I didn't. I was only there for a semester. Oh, okay. Yeah, I literally like I was there and I would only go to like my music theory and music business classes. And like I just didn't really actually want to be there a lot, realistically. So like I just did the bare minimum. And then when the next semester rolled around I went to a community college, like transferred out of there and then decided like I want to just learn this all on the internet and just do, you know, and you know, it's gotten me this far. So I'm chilling. Yeah, no, and that is probably a very good segue to that. So I master like, what's called 20 to 30 records a week. And so I always, like I said, like, you know, I get your stuff. I'm like, all right, let's check out what this person's previous work is. Let's make sure it's progressing. Let's get their vibe. And I go and I'm like, whoa, that's a lot of listens on these songs. It's good for you. And you're a young artist without like seven records out to get there. Tell me the story of how we've gotten to here. Man, it's a crazy story. Okay, that's what I like when I find out. Podcasting with someone. It's a crazy story. Basically started 2017. And in 2017, I really, the self-titled record just mags. And that was a record that I had recorded the year previous and had been working on for most of 2017. Mixed it at my house. Like I think I mixed it on some like Yamaha HS5 or something. Yeah, somehow. And that's a good sounding record for HS5s. I agree, somehow did it though. But and also rebuilt my computer in the middle of mixing that record because I ran out of CPU power, but that's something that you always hear. Yeah, no, I was like, I got to rebuild my computer because I can't bounce any of these tracks down. But again, different story. Yeah, so I had put out that record and then some crazy shit happened in my personal life where I got divorced. I was like, I had been married for two years and we were together for like eight. And it just like, just wasn't working, you know? Like long story short, it just wasn't working and we amicably decided to split. And so we were basically separated by like the end of November, 2018. And I think after Christmas 2019, I started, I went down to Nashville. I went to Nashville to visit my friend who had just recently like kind of blown up on YouTube. And so I was like down there just kind of hanging out with him and we made a video that I was in and I played one of my songs in the video just because he wanted me to. And he had recently gone from like maybe 80,000 subscribers to like 500,000 or something crazy. Like he just had a massive jump in subscribers like very quickly. So a lot of people just like, I just was in front of a lot of people like very quickly. And I think he even like linked me or tagged me in the video and everything. So like people started coming over from the video and from there, the craziest thing is that he decided he wanted to move to LA after that. He was like, cool, like I'm a YouTuber now. Like I'm just gonna go to LA. Yeah, get your hype house, you know, do your thing. Exactly what he did. Got a house in Studio City, like in the hills and like his girlfriend and he invited me to come with. He was like, I want you to just like come live at the house and like, you know, be a part of our like YouTube super dream team or whatever. And I was like, I'm not doing anything else. Like I have nothing else to do. Like I work a shit job and I'm divorced. So I might as well go, you know? Yeah, like I said, I had gotten, we had split up in like November, 2018 and by, I'm sorry, 2017 and then, but in February it was like basically three or four months I had moved to LA. And I had no intention of ever moving to LA. Like I never dreamed about it. I never even really saw it as an option. It was kind of just like, it just wasn't like something that I ever registered as like even a possibility. It was crazy because like I got off the plane, one way ticket, I got off the plane, my first time ever being to California, let alone Los Angeles. And it's like, oh, I live here now. Like I drive and I catch an Uber to my new house that I haven't seen. And it's a mansion. It's literally a mansion. And you know, they have like a little spot where they're like, you can just build a studio here. Like it's cool. They just kind of gave me free reign on this one little area. And I built it out. Like I've got like a really nice desk and like built all the sound treatment and everything. And like got like an old fifties, like Gretsch drum kit. And like I had all my old gear like that I brought from Buffalo. And like I was just like about to get set up. You know what I mean? And from working with them, I basically like just got very visible in the YouTube world. And I wasn't like doing anything crazy. Like I was throwing up a vlog here and there, but like I wasn't really there for all that. You know what I mean? I just wanted to kind of get back to making music. And I started noticing my numbers were going up of course, like on everything. We did that for about three months. And then it just like came to an end. Like it just, it was just over. Like she ran out of money and like some shit went down. Like it's not anything that I'm trying to get into right now. But like he just basically just didn't work out. And we had to, we had to part ways. And I basically ended up, there was four of us that were living, basically living in that house. And I ended up like just sleeping on the other kid's couch in like in South Central for a bit. And then we got into a place in Korea town. And that was when I was like, basically all happened from February until May when everything kind of ended with YouTube thing. And then from May to August, I was kind of just floating and living like down by USC. And just like trying to like, I didn't have a job. I didn't have anything. I was just kind of like kicking it. But like again, I still had all of this like social media buzz and everything. I ended up just like getting a job at a catering company. I started like doing operations at a catering company without any experience. And like just went from like having no job to having like working like 70 hours a week like driving an hour and a half to work every day. It was absolutely crazy. I did that for like almost a year. And it was like the craziest thing I've ever done. That's a lot of work. Yeah. And I stopped playing music. I literally wasn't in time for music. This whole time it was like all the people that had kind of come in from YouTube like slowly started to filter out. Like there were definitely people that were like, that became like really close fans of mine and like people that I still talk to all the time on Instagram and everything. But like my numbers kind of settled down until I started working with my manager Felicity. And I met her in 2019, January, 2019 and we started working together. And from there, we kind of just like, we were kind of just trying stuff. Like I had a few songs that I was working on but I didn't have enough for a release or anything. And then this whole time again, it's like I'm just kind of trying to stay like keep my head above water in terms of keeping people's attention. Yes, you know. Yeah. So talk to me about that. What are you doing to keep your head above water to keep the attention engaged? Well, now it's like I 80% of the way through making an album. So it's like, I don't really have to do much. Yes. You know, and we're so close, you know, right now we're so close to putting out a single that like, you know, that alone is kind of, kind of carrying me through like a lot of, even this like pandemic stuff, you know what I mean? It's like, it's not as much that I feel like I'm competing for people's attention in terms of what they consume from music. It's more just like the things that are happening in the world right now that like are just constantly kind of hitting you from every angle at all times whenever you open your phone, you know? It's like, how do you, how do you like cut through all that noise? Yeah. How do you cut through a Borat part of Rudolph Giuliani as a pedophile in the day and things like that? Yeah. Yeah. It's like, okay. Well, I, I'm putting on the same though. So your music though is getting a hell of a lot of engagement that I can't imagine, no matter how much attention that YouTube gave, I can't imagine what you have now is still just that. Is that what has been happening? So yeah. And I guess you're right. Like at this point, like some people still kind of ask about like if I'm ever going to make another vlog, but for the most part like it's, we're kind of just all doing music at this point. So I was able to transition out of that, like YouTuber, like stigma pretty quickly. Yeah. Yeah. Which could be a death trap it. But if you're not making music that people like, it's never going to work anyway. Of course. Yeah. I think it was just kind of like a springboard, ultimately, like it just like was just another thing that I needed to do in order to get to where I am now. I did put out an EP earlier this year, like a really like rag tag EP. Like I honestly see it more as just like some demos, you know, cause it was an album that I was making during the time that I was on YouTube. And I was like pitching this whole like, I'm going to put out an EP pretty soon thing. And I ended up deciding not to release it after hyping it for like however many months. It just like, it just didn't feel like it was time yet. I was like, you know what? Like these songs are like really personal. And like, I don't know if this is the first thing I want people to hear from me after my last record. Cause I just, these just don't really feel like, this isn't the time, this isn't the time. That's all I can really say about it. So I just kind of like didn't put it out and started doing the catering thing for a while. But I put that, I put those songs out back in May. I think this was Patrick. That actually did pretty well. I was surprised because it was like, I barely mixed it. Like I kind of just like got it mostly situated and then just was like, here you go. As they say, the songs get abandoned. This was, letting these out to sea. Yeah, exactly. I'm just kind of releasing these from like my consciousness because like, you know, a lot of them ended up being about like my divorce and all that too. Like it was kind of like a cathartic, like I'm going to just purge these from my body right now, you know? But yeah, in terms of keeping people's interest, it's like I've been talking about releasing music. And it's funny because like you keep calling me like I'm the young guy and you're the old guy, but like when it comes to like social media, like I also feel like the old guy. Oh, really? Okay. It's like, I understand it's a huge part of what I do and like keeping people interested in this day and age. But ultimately, like I'm just trying to be working, you know, and like I like using social media to talk to people and I like interacting with my fans. But the whole like it's got to be, you got to post it 12 every single day and you got to like post all the algorithm stuff and like all that, like I get it, but I don't really like it. So it's going to be invested in something that's like pretty fake ultimately, you know what I mean? Yeah, you know, I struggle with this a lot too is that like obviously want this channel to do well. I like talking to people it's something I've discovered I really like, but in all honesty, like I would much rather be learning and being creative than trying to put it out. And like it's funny, like the two people I work with the most have like million follower Twitter accounts and like watching how much they enjoy it. I'm like, oh, that's what I'm missing right there. I don't enjoy this part. They like this part of the job. And it's like, it's hard to fake. And that's like one of the things is like, it's also impossible to fake how much effort I hear in your music. I think that that's the thing is like when the passion lies there, it's something you have to lean into. Yeah, and ultimately it's like, I just don't get validation from other people telling me I did a good job. You know? Yes, I know, I know, I have the same thing. Yeah, I think that's like, that's kind of the main thing is like, I've lived enough life now to kind of realize that like social media is not the end all be all for like, you know, success. I have a relatively healthy relationship with my social media. I actually have the same thing in that like, it's like, it's kind of a curse because like I see some of my friends who get so much validation from social media that it's like, oh, well, this keeps them going. And for me, I'm just like, I don't, as long as I'm happy with what I put out, yeah, sure, I want people to see it. I'm not gonna deny that. And I'm not gonna deny that I've a video flops that I put a lot of effort into. Like, you know, I had one few months ago that I wrote for months. I'd open it every day. And then it's like, why is that I have so few views? I will be fully honest. I look at that analytic sometimes and yell at my phone, but like for the most part, it's for me and I'm fine with that. So with that, you are gonna put something out into the world. So I did notice from the song Smile that we, I mastered, there's better progression in the sound. What can we expect from this upcoming folic? That's, I think what you can expect is that it's different and that's not really like, that's not really a good ex, it doesn't really encapsulate the whole thing. I think that it's kind of like the first time people are gonna hear what I can really do. I think like with my last album, the sort of like, the thing that I hear is that it's very much like a product of what I was invested in at that point, like what I was listening to. I was like heavy into like the first two or three KG Ellison albums. I was heavy into like the Arctic Monkeys. I was heavy into the Dokes. And like I still love all that music and it still like influences me a lot to this day. But since I put that album out, I've gotten a lot more into like hip hop and I've gotten a lot more into like, just like older music too. Like I had like this whole sort of like moment with Marvin Gaye a few months ago. I just, I was listening to nothing but Marvin Gaye for like probably two or three months. And you know, just like kind of borrowing from some of the old like soul music and like mostly in terms of like tones. You know what I mean? Cause like when I write my songs, it's like the song, like I'm not usually writing from a place of like, I want to write a song that sounds like blank. You know, it's just like, this is just a song idea I had. But usually where it comes to life is like when I start just deciding like how I want the song to feel what I want it to sound like. I think like with this album, I've managed to incorporate my new influences in a way that I'd never let myself before. I think like another thing with being a solo artist is like, or I guess like an artist in general, it's like you, you definitely are aware of what people expect of you. Especially if you've had a project that has done well in the past, like you assume people expect the same thing from you. That could definitely like halt your progress if you're trying to write within the parameters of what someone else expects of you, of course. Yeah, I mean, my last book was pretty much about this, yeah. Yeah, yeah, so I think like, I have had to sort of let my own expectations of myself let them go. And what I think is like, what I think people expect of me, you know, if like they're expecting another version of like like my one, I have one song that has a 7.1 million plays right now. And like I could pretty easily write another song that sounds like that. And that like kind of creates that whole like vibe again, but that's kind of disingenuous, you know what I mean? That's like, that's to me, that that just feels kind of cheap. So I would much rather like take my chances like broadening my horizons and like being more open to, again, like letting myself try new things, you know, versus like the idea of appeasing my fans, you know? Yes. What I argue in my book is that every time somebody does that, they're all the people I see at a bar that are 45 and they're like, oh, I fucked up so bad. The label told us to just do another song like that, but I wanted to do this. And yeah, the people who make the record they wanted to make and they get it. Like when it doesn't connect with the crowd, like that they, like if they'd faked it it's just to be fucking miserable. Yeah, I, you know, it's funny because I think like one of my biggest things with my career is like there may be a point where I partner with a label, but I don't know that I would ever like sign to a label. You know what I mean? So talk to me about that. So I just got done working at a major label. Oh, okay, interesting. So like when I was 19, the joke I always say is like, if my 19 year old self could have seen me working at a major label, he would have fucked me up. Like, you know, like bruises everywhere barely walked into the next day. And then I went in there, very skeptical. I was like, ah, you know, this isn't half as evil as I thought. I, there was some things that I was like, ah, but like that. So what do you see as the problem with the label for you? And what do you, I know you've talked about your control. What is it that you want to exercise that you feel a label will be compromising to you? I just really, really don't like being told what to do. Like no matter, like it doesn't matter what it is. Like I have always had like pretty unconventional jobs. Like things I've worked, like I just, I've always done like really weird kind of off the, not off the books, but like out of pocket kind of stuff. And those jobs allow me to have a lot of freedom. And like, it's not necessarily like, when you get something done, but how well it's done. And, you know, having a certain amount of time to do it. You know what I mean? So I think, you know, for me, like the idea of a label is kind of like having a boss. You know, like you're kind of like, in a way signing over your rights to make up your own mind about what you want to do. I was actually signed to a very small label when I first started putting out music, like a local label. That wasn't really so much of like a label situation as like it was like a publishing thing. So I didn't really, I didn't really get like a ton out of that in terms of like marketing, but you know, I think that would kind of really be the only benefit for me that I would want to get out of the label is like marketing and if they want to pay for stuff. You know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, it is funny because like, you know, there's, while I'm making, I'm really being a devil's advocate to you because like obviously I'm the person who wrote the book on like, hey, you don't need a label, don't ever do the thing. But there's like that funny thing that I also, like the funniest thing about it is, is people assume like, oh, the label is going to tell you what to do. It's like, most of the labels I see, specifically even Big Indie ones are so incompetent that they don't tell the artist anything to do. The artist leads the way on everything because they know they know fucking nothing that they're just, they're guessing right with good music taste and they're riding coattails. Yeah. Well, I think that's another point though. It's like, they have a little bit of an idea of what's going on in the industry because you know, in a way they are the industry, but at the same time, like there's such a massive space for independent artists now that like there hasn't been in the past. It makes almost more sense to take your chances and like if you're going to take the chance on doing music at all, like do it on your terms and like make all the money. You know what I mean? Like build your team out, build, get a good team of people around you that like will protect you and like, you know, want to see you succeed and want to succeed. You know, I think for me, it's like all the people that I've sort of partnered with are people that are a part of my team are at about the same level as me in terms like what they're able to do. You know what I mean? So like when it came time for distribution, like I had an option to sign with someone. I forgot who it was exactly, but like they had like all these huge artists on their roster and everything. And then I had another option and they were offering basically the same thing. Didn't have as much like, you know, as many like cloudy artists on their roster, you know? And I ended up going with them because like after talking to them, it was like they need me as much as I need them, you know? It felt more like a partnership. Like we can kind of come into this as equals versus like, you know, you are already, you already have like your cash cow. You already have your way, you're making your money. So kind of like put me in coach. You know what I mean? It's not as much of like a pecking order with how they treat their artists. Now that's smart. And you know, it's the thing that people don't see all the time is that like, oh, well, now you're the smallest fry in a big roster where they have to pay attention to these people all day. But then, you know, there can be the opposite of like, oh yeah, well this person's incompetent, they have nobody but like you got to make the judgment. So I think with that, that brings a good thing. So you're talking a lot about making sure you find the right people for a team. I know that that's the thing that people are often very, a lot of people don't understand how to find a good team and how to do it. How have you navigated that? I wouldn't say I believe in luck. I don't believe in luck. I think that everything that happens is cliche to sound. I think things definitely happen for a reason. And like, I don't think that you miss opportunities. You just like, there are options that are for you and the ones that aren't for you, you know? And I started dating my girlfriend back in 2018. And she actually was the one who got me my manager. It was, it's kind of crazy because it's like, I showed her my music and she was like, I fuck with this so much. Like this is like, this is exactly the kind of music that I would want to be listening to because it reminds me so much of like all the stuff I used to listen to. You know, I come from like, I listened to a lot of like punk rock and like a lot of like, like a lot of the email bands in the mid 2000s. Like I was all my shit, you know? And so like, she basically just took it upon herself to like start DMing managers on Instagram. Like kind of out of nowhere. I didn't ask her, I didn't like, I never brought it up. She was just like, you clearly need a manager. You have two million plays and you're just like sitting working at this catering company. So she really was the one who like went out of her way to like do something. Like I honestly don't think I have the answer because like a lot of people will ask me like, you know, how do you get on playlists? How do you, how do you that and everything? And I'm like, honestly, I'm not the person to ask about that. You know what I mean? That's, that's my team, you know? And so from working with Felicity, she has a background in marketing and she was also like pretty new to managing when I, when I met her, I think she had maybe been at it for like a couple of years, maybe three years or so at that point. And, you know, only had a couple of other artists. And again, we kind of came in at the same level. And, you know, since we've been working together, it's like my numbers have gotten her in the door to like get me bigger opportunities. And thus she's been able to like extend her network, you know, and like get new contacts. And, you know, it's like, it's, and that's how we were able to find, you know, the distribution company we're working with, the booking company we're working with, the licensing company, like all of it. Like it's all kind of just been from like, you know, this kind of symbiotic relationship that we have, you know? And the rising tide lifts all the ships. Exactly, yeah. But again, I really, I honestly owe that all to my girlfriend. That's a really, yeah, that's a unique story. Yeah, yeah, sure. So I really can't even take credit. That's really funny. So, but did you say she was friends with this girl or was she just literally DM'd her out of nowhere? Literally DM'd her out of nowhere. And was like, if you like this, just here's his number. It was literally just that. And she's, I mean. That's a rare story. Yeah, yeah. And that's what I mean. It's like, like there are opportunities out there for you, but not every opportunity is gonna be for you. I could have been, I could have been emailing managers all day, every day, but she was the manager that was supposed to work with me, you know? Yeah, I think there's also something that's interesting in this that like, it's something for somebody else to be like, you should be with this. Whereas like, you know, obviously my Instagram is filled all day with, every time I open, I'm like, ooh, seven requests. And it's somebody who's fully mentally like, you know what it is, you should work with me. And I'm like, yes, yes, I do know what it is. It still reads. So I want to close this as we're getting to the end of our time. Tell us about, do the self promotion thing. You got a single coming out, you got an album. Tell us all the things, tell people where to find you, tell everybody the things. Sure. So the single is called Smile. That's coming out. Well, I guess again, it'll probably be out by the time you hear this, but it's on the 23rd. We just, we also shot a video for it. So you should definitely watch the video. It's pretty crazy. I got to work with some really amazing, talented artists on the, on the video. So I'd recommend you check that out as well. My Instagram is Elliot's underscore mags, two L's and two T's. A lot of people will fuck up my name. So same thing for Twitter. And the album is forthcoming. We're talking about like, I think we're talking about like next year, early next year. Ultimately, like I really like, I wasn't really trying to do anything that was like too close to the election. You know what I mean? Yeah. And when I tell everybody right now, it's like the funniest thing is everybody's like, I put out a song in two weeks. I'm like, I work in politics. Let me tell you something. While you may not know that I have a really big job in politics in addition to music, this is the stupidest thing you will ever do if you put that record out in two weeks. Yeah, even like, I mean, we were originally shooting for like the 16th to put everything out, but we had to push it by a week. And I was like, if we do any longer, like I don't even wanna put it out just yet. Like I just, I wanna just avoid it at all costs. So, but yeah, I think I don't really do too much else except for Instagram and Twitter. I got a YouTube as well, but you'll probably see the video and subscribe to the YouTube and all that. But yeah. Awesome, dude. It was great getting to know you a little better. Likewise, yeah. I'm actually really looking forward to this. I've been, I love the idea of doing my podcast. So anytime you wanna have it. Nice. Thanks so much for watching. If you enjoyed this podcast, there's tons more like this that are about to come up on the end screen or you can click a link in the description below to see more like it. As well, if you wanna hear more like this in your favorite podcast app, just search Noise Creators and all of my podcasts are in that feed there. As well, if you're a musician who's trying to go from zero to 10,000 fans, I have a playlist linked below or on the screen in a second. That's all about how you do just that where I have tons and tons of videos on how you grow your fan base as a musician who hasn't yet established themselves. 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