 You can now follow me on all my social media platforms to find out who my latest guest will be and don't forget to click the subscribe button and the notifications button so you're notified for when my next podcast goes live. The day I spent with Heath Ledger, you know, six months before he died, you know, the photos we created, the guy that I got to see and spend six hours with is what I remember. I did 18 videos with Rihanna, you know, I worked with, you know, the Beckham sort of, David for 20 years and worked with Snoop for 10 years and Jay Z for a long stretch. He would smoke out one person for my crew every shoot. So if I was doing stills and I had four guys, one of them would be down because no one can out smoke Snoop. It's just like, and his favorite thing would be like, he'd take a blunt and be like, all right, man, I like that. He said to my assistant and the assistant would look at me. I'm like, yeah, okay, it's cool. Go ahead. So he'd light it, take two puffs, hand it back, Snoop's like, man, I told you, I like that. Okay, two more, two more. And then two seconds, the guy's out. And that was his favorite thing. I mean, every artist on the planet has had a mental breakdown. Don't think for a second. Any single person at that level has had a moment. And depending on how long that moment lasts, whether it's a day, an hour, a month, a year, or five years, it's impossible to live in that light all the time. I did Irreplaceable, and that was in 2006. I did another video after. And then my relationship with her was really just around Jay. But they're just great people, man. Can't say enough about them. Just beautiful people. And she is what you see. She's a strong woman. She's a leader. She's a mother. She's a wife. She's an artist. She's an icon. I think she's the greatest performer of all time. I think with Em, it was the one I noticed more than anything was that he was pretty much like a recluse. You know, we would have to go to Detroit and go out to his house to work. You know, you always work in these like small communities where he lived. You couldn't get him to come to LA and work. You know, you always had to go to him. Boom, we're on. And today's guest, we've got Anthony Mandela. How are you, brother? Pleasure to be here, man. Absolute pleasure to have you on. Yeah, man, it's my honor. Absolute legend. You've worked with some of the biggest names on this planet from Rihanna, Eminem, Jay-Z, Beyoncé, but the list is long, but it's phenomenal. The work that you've done. You also released the monster on Netflix as well. Yeah, and Surrounded coming next year. That's a fucking great status. That started off as a photographer. I did. I did. And now you're here working with the biggest names traveling the world. Fair play to you, man. I take my heart off to you. Proud of you. Everybody wants to be the biggest and the best and your names out there as being the biggest and the best to work well flat. It's an honor to have you on. Hey, man. It's my pleasure. I came across your podcast just randomly online and I reached out to you and just loved the honesty. You know, we started conversation and just the ability to come here and sit down with you and talk while I was in town is my honor, man, because we all as creatives or as people or as, you know, no matter where our journey is, we all want to be able to express ourselves. So I appreciate that. Yeah, I appreciate that. And it's been a long journey, you know. And listen, there's a lot of losses along the way, you know, like a lot of wins and a lot of L's, we say years that are great and years that are terrible, pieces that are remarkable and memorable and other ones you sort of duck your head down and wish you didn't do that. And that sort of created a process as a journey, you know. So I'm happy to be where I am today. Yeah, fair play. Before we get into everything, brother, I'll go back to the start of my guests. Where'd you grow up and how it all began? I grew up in LA in the like the 70s and 80s in a time that was really interesting because it was very creative. My mother was a filmmaker and a producer and a writer and my father owned restaurants. And I really grew up in like, when you think about LA at that time in the 80s, I was like one of those kids, like Beverly Hills 902 1L, Lesson Zero, you know, Fast Life, you know, Hollywood, like in that era, movie stars. And it was interesting because you walked down the street and be like, oh wow, there's Arnold Schwarzenegger, there's Sylvester Stallone or there's Cindy Crawford or, you know, it was around you all the time. And I think it had a big influence on my desire to be in Hollywood and to make movies, especially my mother as an artist. And, you know, I went to film school and started my journey young as a filmmaker and sort of failed. Nothing happened, you know, 22, 23, 24, trying to get things done and almost and maybe and ended up in coffee shops or writing all day. And I think my parents were really concerned that I was gonna be that guy and told me to get a job. And I started taking pictures and shooting headshots and model cards and little by little editorial. And then that started a whole process of like a photo career, essentially, you know. How was that to get into that? Was that always your passion or was that something you just watched your mom doing? Well, no, film was always my passion, being a director. But being a photographer was, you know, the problem with film at that time was that, you know, it was, there was no digital. You actually get to get a camera to get sound. You need help. It was two, three people. It's not like today you pick up an iPhone, you can make a movie. So I picked up photography as like a way to practice because that was part of the idea, you know, the frame, you know, the base of everything is the frame. So I bought a camera for my 13th birthday with my own money and kept taking pictures and then when sort of like the film that I was trying to make didn't happen, I became a photographer and I got an agent and, you know, I was off the races. You know, I started shooting very quickly. I'm like mid-20s. And I started coming here a lot because I eventually had a contract with British GQ and British Esquire and was working for, at that time, FHM Magazine and, you know, eventually I met David Beckham for an Adidas campaign and started working with musicians. And so it was a mix of music, like album covers and fashion and advertising jobs and, you know, shooting movie posters like for the wire, you know, entourage, things like that. I just started to expand, you know, and then I spent most of my 20s doing that. And then as I got back to about 30, I started directing music videos again, you know, started transitioning back into directing. How was it? Like working with the bigger stars, was it, did your mum have those sort of people around you as a kid? So when you'd done it as a photographer, it didn't seem because we can get stars dropped. We can, we can, in that industry, it's kind of, it's a fucking bubble. It's a weird industry. You know that yourself working with the biggest names. How was that feeling when you started taking the A-listers and was that just water off a duck's back? Or was it a weird feeling? You know, I mean, like I, I was definitely like raised around a lot of, like famous people. So it was less, I was less star struck. It's more the expectation when you're a photographer. Let's say you're working for GQ and you're shooting a, you know, Colin Farrell, like I did for the cover of British GQ. You come in, you meet him, hey man, how are you? You're about five minutes. And you're like, okay, this is what we're going to do today. You know, here, turn this way, turn that way. You know, let's take your shirt off, do this. You know, you start asking people to do things and they don't know you. So either you have to build trust very quickly and you have to be somebody that's likable very fast. And some days, you know, you're having a shitty day and you're like, you're not really in the mood for it, but then you see the actor doesn't respond or the talent doesn't respond to you and you have to figure out ways to sort of get them into a place because a photo doesn't lie. It's either a great photo or not. And you can tell when people are bored. So I think the challenge was learning how to create things very fast and change my attitude very fast while you're on set in order to sort of get people to emote. And that became the building blocks to where I'm today. You know, in film, you step on set with an actor, a great actor, an Oscar winning actor. If you're mumbling and you're looking down and you're not, no, you got to be right here because they're waiting, they want direction. They want to know that you understand the character and they want to communicate. And if you're sort of like an energy's all over the place, you're going to get that back from them, right? How do you know you've took a great photo or do you have a feeling? Like if I do a podcast, I walk away and you just know you've nailed it. You've done the best that you can because even though people tell you you're doing great, you've got a great podcast, the majority of the podcasts are do a walk away and think, fuck, I should have done more. I could have done that. I'm self-loathing and I get down. I get a little bit depressed because I think I could have done more. But then when it's out, people go, that was amazing, you're thinking, really? I look for the flaws and the negative sometimes. Did you do that as the photography? Did you know you took a good photo or a good shoot? Or did you always have the self-doubt you could have done more? I think it's the same thing that you feel. I think there are moments that are magical and you look at it and it's iconic. It's someone cuts their hair or somebody wears a piece of fashion or there's just a look and a feel and you're like, that's it. But like anything, it's a cycle and some things stand the test of time and other things you look back at six months later and you go, I'm looking at work now 20 years ago. It's like the 20-year anniversary of certain things I did, shoots with Heath Ledger, shoots with Snoop that I did around 2001, 2003, and there's a lot of 20-year anniversary of those photos and some of them really stand the test of time and other ones look dated. But in the day, it's about the memory of the moment and the exchange between two artists that I remember the most. The day I spent with Heath Ledger, six months before he died, the photos we created, the guy that I got to see and spend six hours with is what I remember. Same thing is true about the Russell Crows, like a maniac in that time in life, around Gladiator, the day right before the Oscars when his energy was all over the place and my dog was with me and so he loved my dog and so he was calm. These are the things you remember and the photos hopefully stand up to that, but it's two sides of the relationship. It's the experience and it's the art that comes out of it. And sometimes you have a strong client like a magazine that doesn't want you to do and push this way and so you've got to pull it back and try to reimagine it. But it's hard to say that everything you can do is great. We're learning as time goes as well. It's good to be confident but sometimes you can be about too confident and arrogant in your craft but he fled your legend. See when you do a shoot like that and then he passes away, does that then raise what you actually did with him with probably one of the last photo shoots of his life? Yeah, I think so. And I've sort of not done anything else with the photos. They were sort of run for this magazine called Flaunt and it was a really important sort of shoot for me in my career and they sort of are where they are. It's like, that's a moment. People enjoy the photos. They use them. I let people use them. They're all over the place. But it's like you touch people and have these interactions with people and then you move on. I just made a movie with Michael K. Williams who was one of my close friends who passed away a year ago of a drug overdose. Yeah, from the wire. The scar. And Michael was one of the most beautiful people in the world and was so tortured and so full of life and this incredible artist. We worked together on the wire. We did some advertising and then I did something for Sirach with him about six years later. And then we finally made this movie together and I got a chance to really get in his process with him and talk about this insecurity about feeling like you're a fraud. Michael was not this tough gangster. That's what he played. He was a soft, beautiful guy. But for me, my job was to sort of like hold his truth and help him sort of play the role. So in a way like photography is sort of like a simple and iconic because it's an image and it's either great or not. But it's sort of a simple form. But as you get to film, it's a much more complicated form, right? As far as what has to be done. But it's also, you know, strangely debatable. Some people respond to performances more than others and some people respond less. You know, it could go a lot of different ways. You know, see when you're taking photos, some of those photos shine better when you have a better connection with them. If you know what I mean. Everything's to do with connection. Even my podcast, even looking in the eyes, I get it to connect, to build some sort of rapport where people can relax more and present their best self. Did you see that behind the camera? You get a great photo shoot, but part of it was because of what you also did communicating with them and not just behind the camera. Yeah, no, one thing I'm really proud of in my career is I worked with a few people a lot of times. You know, I did 18 videos with Rihanna. You know, I worked with, you know, the Beckham sort of David for 20 years and worked with Snoop for 10 years and Jay-Z for a long stretch. And those repeat sort of relationships. There's a rapport. So we sort of are building on things we did previously and there's a trust, you know, and it makes their life easier because I sort of know what to expect and they know what to expect when they come to set. And I think it makes it easier, but still the challenge is still the same. You still have to create something important. You still have to connect. You still have to get the job done, you know, and whether you're sitting for a portrait or you're doing a, you know, a big commercial, you know, there's, there's, sometimes it's pure and it's just you and that person taking a picture. And other times there's 10 clients and a lot of them line, you know, and so you've got to please them and also continue the relationship with the person that brought you there. How was he fledged as an individual? The day that I shot him, he was particularly hung over, you know, so he was like sort of like out of it a little bit and it really worked for what we were doing because it was like, we built this bedroom set and I just wanted him sort of laying around and drawing on the walls and sort of, you know, with his shoes off and just sort of loose and it worked. And I remember him being a beautiful guy, you know, it was 20 years ago, but it was a shame you had to lose him, you know. I remember that was 20 years ago. You see a lot of tortured souls, the bigger the name, the more tortured they are. Yeah, I know I got tattoos all over me, if friends are gone, you know, some of the best ones. The best guys, you know, leave us early, you know. It's fucked up, isn't it? Because part of me used to choose fame. UK, if you're a celebrity in the UK, I'm not a so-called celebrity, but even the big names in the UK, they're not as big as America. If you're a celebrity in America, you're a celebrity. The UK, you can walk about here and nobody will know you. If you're famous there, you're famous all around the world, do you see the difference between UK celebrities to American celebrities? Yeah, no, I think there's a... I think UK celebrities always want a whole day sort of grounded nature. Like fame didn't change me. I think you feel that. I think a lot of times, American celebrities, it's like the bigger, the more exclusive, the less access, the better. And a lot of that's the teams that are around them. And I think that I find British... And even mainly UK celebrities and musicians to be really grounded and accessible. In America, you never know what you're going to get. You never know. How was it like to work with the biggest magazines on the planet? Was it a good feeling? Did you ever feel satisfied? Or was it always craving more? I didn't particularly love it because every month, someone would throw it over their shoulder and go, what's the new one? It was like a disposable piece of art versus a music video that would last and now with YouTube. It's like, I think my work, I've got about 10 billion views. It's unbelievable to think that that these pieces we created have been watched 10 billion times. Magazines, they get thrown over their shoulder. They don't exist anymore. And movies obviously live even longer. So magazines were nice. They were fun at that time. Sort of a gone art form. What was good for me in my career was that one day I would get a musician. The next day I would get a female celebrity. The next day I would get a politician. You get different assignments from different magazines. So you had to learn the dexterity. You had to learn how to shoot a lot of different people. And I carried that through into sort of music videos and then into commercials and into film, which is like being able to talk to people, being curious. That's like, to me, the most important trait of anybody that holds a camera or directs. It's like, be curious. Ask questions. Men kind of have different faces. They're different places from the politician, the movie star, the music star. Is it just adapting to the circumstances and trying to make them feel more at ease? Yeah, and it's like, you want to be able to connect with people. You need to be able to, film is different because people are playing roles. And I sort of always did that music video. It was like, there was Robin Fenty and there's Rihanna. There's Sean Carter and there's Jay-Z. There's Marshall Manners and there's Eminem. There's two characters always. There's Beyonce and Beyonce Knowles, right? You're always looking to sort of understand what is the real person and what is the character. And if you know the real person, you can influence the character. And so that sort of thing of being able to talk to people, be able to understand them, be curious about their real life. Ask questions, build relationships with them. It helps you guide them in their career, especially if it's someone like Rihanna where I met her when she was 15. It is 18 videos, but you're over like 10 years where you're watching them grow. You're watching them change. You're watching them fall in love, fall out of love, go through the hardest times, go through their biggest times, build businesses, fail businesses, become billionaires. You're like parallel watching them have this journey. You've got to be able to sort of communicate and keep a relationship with people in order to be relevant. If all of a sudden, you don't care about your life, or I'm not into what you're saying, or I'm not paying attention, all I want to do is just shoot you and keep moving, you're never going to have that relationship. It's got to be a friendship. It's got to be a love affair in the moment, between the people you work with. From being one of the biggest photographers on the planet, what made you make the jump to music videos? It was kind of natural because I shot a couple hundred album covers. I shot usher confessions and all the Snoop, and it was like, do you want to do videos? Yes. It started slow, and eventually there was more and more of them happened pretty quickly once it started. Because what I was doing was shooting the album cover and the videos and putting a package together. What you see Beyonce doing now with Lemonade and their new album was a bunch of videos. We were doing that 15 years ago with artists hard to do, hard to get people around the concept of let's do three videos, put the whole thing together and have a unified sort of concept that an audience could digest. As we moved into the digital world and there's no billboards, there's no magazines and everything is sort of like, in a scroll, there's been a need for more unifications. Back then people were like, well we want our photos to be like this and our videos like this. Alms and videos didn't connect. Now everything has to work in a marketing sense. No package. You do produce a music video. See if it's such a good video, do you think that helps with views also and downloads and sales? If the video stands out as well, does that become more pressure on you to shoot a good video? For me, where I like to work budget-wise, there's a lot of pressure because you've got to perform. I had retired from videos for a couple of years and I got a phone call from the guy who runs Rock Nation saying, look, the Jones Brothers coming back together, we're going to work with them. And I said, not particularly, I'm retired. I'm making commercials and movies. And he said, well, let me send you this song. It's just J. Brown's got to work for Jay-Z. So I heard this song, Sucker, and I was like, wow, this song is incredible. I was like, let me have a conversation with them. So we had a conversation, we talked creative. I put a number in front of them, like this is what it would be. And we came over to England, we shot it here. And it was like a real spectacle, music. I knew Joe, the great people. I liked them as guys, but this song connected with me. And I made a, I think of, you know, felt like a great video we were making and all their wives were in it. Sophie Turner had Game of Thrones and Priyanka was exploding. It was just like this moment in time. And the video, you know, got hundreds and hundreds of millions of views and the song was huge and sort of one plus one equal five and they were off, you know, never look back three years later. So, you know, you got a little part of that, people don't really listen to the radio anymore. We watch things. The video really drives things and the image that time. What was it like working with Priyanka for the first time? Man, when I met her, she was 15. She couldn't walk and heal. She was like, you know, from the islands. The label didn't know what to do with her. Like, was she a Caribbean artist? Is she like an R&B artist? But I heard this song and faithful. And the song was like her voice that told me like a real story of love and heartbreak. And I said, I got to meet this girl in the sense of me and I sat with her and I was like, did she write this song? They're like, no, Neo did. And I sat with her, I looked in her eyes and I saw so much depth and pain and there was so much going on. And when she performed and sang the song, like I just talked to her like an actress, not like a like stand there and sing to camera. Hey, don't look at camera. Perform this, be in this moment. She just, her and I just connected at a really deep level. And I saw that there was so much more than what the label even saw. And so it started a relationship where she could always trust me to push to allow her deepest part to come out. And we don't think about it because of where she's gone. But if you go back like predisturbia the label really tried to get her to where Yankees had and make R&B. They wanted to make her like an R&B star. She always knew she was going here. It's just a matter of time, you know. And actually what happened with Chris Brown was like that moment in time where she then had the fuel to do and just follow her path. And that's what she did. You know, look where, you know, it's billionaire. How has that seen someone at 15 doing music videos with him in a relationship again, one of the biggest artists, Chris Brown and seeing the destruction it causes did you ever worry for Rihanna then at that time or did you believe that she was going to keep shining? No, I was hanging out with them the night before. Two nights before. And I spent a lot of time with Chris, obviously. And you know, it was sometimes I young, tumultuous love goes bad. I remember going to see her like a month after it happened in her house and it was hard. I could see that she had changed, you know. And you don't know how people come out of that. You never know, you know. I've been through a lot of my life. I'm, you know, 15 years older than her. So it's like, you know, here she is at a very young age going through something for me as a man like looking back saying like, wow, if that was my daughter or sister what would you do? How do you hold them? How do you guide them? But she's got a fire. I mean, she's Rihanna. She's got something inside that very few, she's only the only one. And I saw fear in her eyes and I also saw fire. You know, I knew she was going to be okay. How do they deal with that level of fame? Like, do you see them becoming more of a recluse as the fame keeps rising, like young girl, innocent. Her whole life up front, I got those dreams to be a music star. But then that level of fame, you can't move out your house. Do you see the changes in them? Because it must affect you. You see the childhood stars, how fucked up they are in their like 20s, early 30s. But did you see the effects of the fame, takes its toll on some of these people? It's interesting because I've been on both sides. There are certain people I work with that when I met them they were uber famous and had 10 bodyguards and then I watched them like change their lifestyle and have no bodyguards and actually learn how to, you know, exist out in the world without security. Other people, you watch them go from no security to having this world where they're protecting you all the time and they're moving you around and you're going from hotel room to plane to hotel room to show to studio and you're not out in the world. I used to say that to Snoop. He would go, he's Snoop's been all over the world and never been anywhere. Been to every city in the world and never walked around. He goes from the plane to the hotel, does a show, goes back to the hotel and leaves. So you've been everywhere but you're missing the human connection. So what happens like, what happens to your creativity when you're not experiencing life? They're experiencing things that we could never imagine that feeling every night on stage where there's 8,000 people screaming, giving you their energy. But at the same time, they're also not, they can't stand out on a curb and enjoy the sunset as people are walking by and, you know, watch life happen. And so that's an interesting thing. So yeah, I've watched a lot of that happen and you know, you try to get people's ear and say, don't forget about this or let's try to do this but at some point it's too hard. You know, like with someone like Rihanna or Beyonce or Jay-Z, like it's hard to move, you know, the minute you walk on the street, everybody's eyes are on them so they have to figure out other experiences. How was it walking with Snoop Dogg? Like, is it true at the moment? Are we tea smokes? Like, can you get shut down? Yeah. We used to have a joke that like, he would smoke out one person for my crew every shoot. So if I was doing stills and I had four guys one of them would be down because no one can out smoke Snoop. It's just like, and his favorite thing would be like, he'd take a blunt and be like alright man, I like that. He'd say to my assistant and the assistant would look at me I'm like, yeah, okay, it's cool, go ahead. So he'd light it, take two puffs, hand it back Snoop's like, man, I told you, I like that. Okay, two more, two more and then two seconds the guy's out and that was his favorite thing, was to put people out. How much he's an individual? He's just like a one of a kind man. I love Snoop. I've spent spent about 10 years in and around him, heavy and he's a guy that comes from a very tough place and has had a lot of hard times and people on top of him and some of his greatest music that he owns none of the rights to and having so many wrongs done to him, but his spirit is strong and he survived because he has a real heart, he's like a loving guy and here he is now having this moment with NFTs and Web3 and just bought back Death Row. I saw him a couple months ago, I hadn't seen him in a couple years and I was like, man I was worried about you, I told him I was worried about you man, but you did it, you fucking did it and that's a real personal thing to say something like Snoop who can go anywhere, but the artist behind the scenes man the pressure on them, the amount of responsibility amount of people on them dealing with your your masters and how you get your money and how you get paid and your touring, it's a complicated thing to do and it's great when you're Ed Sheeran or when you're, you know, Rihanna or someone else, Beyonce, but everybody else is sort of fighting in the middle because he comes from the NWA and big A2 pack and still at the top of his craft, how does some of them do it stay at the top of the craft, even puff daddy like the shit that he's been through in his life and still ended up flying high like losing big A and all the other shit that went with it including 50 cent, like he, I think his brand went down never stopping and he done a TV and become one of the biggest again like how, what's that link for these people to then crash and losing it all and then bringing it back to be the best again? I mean the truth is like they're not regular people, you know, they have different gears you know, puff has like a different gear set, you know, he's like his passion and his desire to win is like, it's infectious if you walk in this room, his energy you can feel it, the shutters move, you know not everybody's as graceful as Jay-Z, right, Jay's graceful Jay just knows how to move and walk in a way where you know, he's street, he's always gonna be that guy, even if he's up here he's just, you know, he's holding what everybody wants, you know, and he's gonna hold it and he understands that power and he's just, for me, the classiest, he's the Frank Sinatra, you know, he's he's the one, you know, yeah, he's the there's Jay and there's to mean for me, there's Jay and there's everybody else when it comes to business, when it comes to family when it comes to taking care of people, when it comes to loyalty when it comes to pushing culture Puff's incredible because he's like fireworks you know, in a bottle, you know, and and one minute he's on top of the world and then it tumbles down, he figured out how to rebuild it I was there when he created Surak, you know, on the first campaign first couple campaigns when it with the brand wasn't worth anything and he had this incredible idea to basically take a whole community and get them off of Brown spirits and Hennessy and drinking vodka which no one did and he just figured out a way to transfer culture if you drink this, you're that, but if you drink this it's high life, you know, like this is this is sexy, this is wrap pack this is like the good life and he just he just created out of nothing and you know, made a billion dollars and that's a power, man, that's like that's not a regular person, you know, that's more than just being charming, right? 50 is the same thing, you know, yeah, built this huge brand, then it sort of faltered and then got into TV and now built another huge brand. There's certain people that like, no matter where they are if you put that guy in, you put those three guys in any company they'll still they'll survive and they'll thrive anywhere you make them a fisherman you they work for GM you put them anywhere and those and because they have something this is different, you know Yeah, I listened to his audio book and I was blown away that you don't realize the extent and I thought it was because he's ruthless online that when he calls people out and shit, I was expecting it to be a bit abrivado but the power that he's came from, from losing his mum to murder and being in prison then one of the biggest artists on the planet losing it all, I think he built it again with the water and then he became the big one of the biggest was it movie producers? No, TV and on the planet like to go there again lose it and then bounce back because there's only a very small amount of people who can do that How did your relationship with Jay-Z start? I'll just say one thing about 50, I did a video in London called Hospital's Ambition for his movie this month had been 2006 or so and I remember I came to meet him here in London for the first time and my friend Chris Clancy who was sort of like his point guy at the label, we're at the hotel we're about to walk in the room and Chris looked at me and goes this guy's not normal, just so you know I'm like, what do you mean? He goes he's not like other guys, other artists I was like, okay cool it's about 11.39, we go in the room and 50 lectures me about marketing for 2 hours without taking a breath and literally spits like the whole plan on how he's going to do everything he's going to do it was remarkable and so like a lot of times people come to the street and they survive that world we come into show business and it's like there's no music, it's like that's easy there's no guns, this is easy I'm just playing out a game of chess here and the guys and the people that say whether it's Rihanna or Beyonce or Jay, male and female that are best out of the ones that know that know that this is a game of chess I met Jay just like working in and around music and in photography and starting to work with Rihanna you know and I got a phone call that Jay wants to meet me and so we sat down at the Chateau Marmont this is about 2005 and had a four hour dinner one to one, drank a couple bottles of wine talked about life film, art, culture and I never forget it he looked at me and he goes like this he goes you're one of those guys and I go what do you mean he goes you're one of those guys he goes and I took that as a compliment like he felt my passion for creating and being an artist and we set off on this great relationship with a lot of trust and a lot of loyalty and had some great times really great times the stuff I did with him and the relationship with him was really special and dear to my heart and you know we still talk a good amount and you know I'll see him once in a while and send him my movie and I'll get feedback and he's honestly come yeah that's unbelievable we had times here man we did Forever Young the video for Forever Young here I had a bunch of time in the lanes bro I spent a bunch of time in London with him actually me and my wife and B and J had a great night out on her tour about 10 years ago had some good memories here he loves it here for my kids from the streets in New York he bought them in New York next to the night in Brooklyn yeah it shows what can be done it does show what can be done with fuck all just vision because even he's ratting back in the day he would even say it was fucking shit back in the day like his old mixed tapes and the photo with the buck tiefing and now he's married to one of the most beautiful women on the planet one of the richest musicians probably ever the amount of money he's got obviously you'll not hear about but to have the next and to the talent he's got under him as well that is second to none it's I think it's more than money at some point it's like cultural influence I remember when they at the Yankee Yankee stadium the theme of Yankee stadium was always Sinatra's New York New York New York and at some point they were placed with Jay Z's song and I remember how big of a moment that was like they changed the song at Yankee stadium to Jay's song New York and it's like they're like these moments like for a young kid from the hood to have that much success yes money, fame, wealth, power, all that stuff but along the way there's all these other victories you know and there are many times when it could go wrong there are a lot of people that only want to hear you know it's like the stuff that Jay and Beyonce do quietly the charitable events the way they give back to the community the way they empower a community the way that they've built a company and employed people like it's there's nobody that's done what they've done and it comes from a that comes from a really really tough place you know at a tough time like 80s 1980s in Brooklyn gentrification you know New York's probably the most dangerous place in America violent crime, police crime it's just a horrible time to live you know and I remember asking one time I was like how many in your life do you think this could this have not happened how many big instances and he just sort of was like I can't I can't even count just like moments along the way where it could have gone left to right you know and you realize how special this guy is you're sitting in front of someone that's a one in a billion one in a trillion they'll never be another you know do you know when you're in the presence of somebody that they're going to be a great they're going to be a superstar do you just know like before you meet them before that before the heights that you know like meeting Rihanna did you just know that you always know they're artists I met I worked with that you thought we're going to be huge stars it didn't there's an artist in particular that I loved man that had the most incredible energy and love and he went you know he went to jail for 10 years in the middle of his rise and it was just cut everything off you know you know I met Connor you know probably eight years ago seven years ago when he was starting really starting to go and you you feel it's like the energy's there you know that guy it's going to take it's like what you're saying with Patty you know he's going to you don't know he's going to be the greatest of all time but his star is going like this it's going to take him really fucking up for it not to be a huge show but there's a lot of challenges along the way because everybody is like anytime like if I get a call like there's a there's a I mean really I don't do music videos anymore but like there's a great actor or there was a great musician and you're like okay cool you know I'm sure they're great you meet them yeah they're cool or you're like wow that person's special you remember them you know but that's like in life it's like the first time I met my wife I was like wow I remember saying it I was like I said to my friend after I was like that girl wow you know like it catches you it's that thing you know it's a feeling you know and it's undeniable some people's undeniable what's beyond say like I mean the sweetest coolest you know I had I did I did irreplaceable you know and that was in 2006 I did another video after and then my relationship with her was really just around J but they're just great people man can't say enough about them you know just beautiful people and you she is what you see you know she's a strong woman she's a leader she's a mother she's a wife she's an icon I think she's the greatest performer of all time in my opinion what about him and him for me he's the biggest best rapper of my generation of all time I know he gets a lot of stick because he's a white kid but for me his lyrics are second to none like how he is an individual I did a couple videos for him spent some time in Detroit with him a couple shoots he's complicated he was complicated at that time I feel I think he was not sober at that time I think now he's sober and he seems to be really direct but it was complicated he's a complicated guy you know and his sometimes people's brilliance are is also what makes them odd you know and they're not like as open or as like one to one they don't look you in the eyes but then they walk away and they do something that's remarkable you know they have a special skill set I think with him it was it was what I noticed more than anything was that he was pretty much like a recluse you know we would have to go to Detroit and go out to his house to work you know he's always working in these like small communities where he lived you couldn't get him to come to L.A. and work you know he always had to go to him which tells me something you know he's like his world is sort of smaller and smaller and that's part of the problem is like when you see fame sort of controlling someone's life when they actually want to do something different you know it's sad isn't it like because you've got to be obsessed with your craft but that becomes at a cost do you see that in the mental health of the people who are geniuses but you also see them don't really enjoy life as much because they're so caught up and that's brilliance in their head I mean every artist on the planet has had a mental breakdown don't think for a second any single person at that level has had a moment and depending on how long that moment lasts whether it's a day an hour a month a year or five years it's impossible to live in that in that light all the time even like for me when I was around people at that level even a couple days around it you're like wow this is a lot it's a lot everywhere you go there's Snoop Dogg, Eminem, Dr. Draytyte there's a medium my understanding is that that relationship is good now again now that Snoop's bought Death Row you know I don't interact I'm not seeing some of those guys in those rooms the same way I used to but I think things have changed you know and things have gone back there was a lot of crazy stuff going on for a long time yeah it's a fucking mad industry but those names is unbelievable to have worked with those names how do you feel working with these people that is it just nothing now or is it just do you still get an urge to like you say a feeling that you're obviously retired now from it and no doubt everybody would still want to work with you but do you still look back in your life and think fuck me just started off a camera at 13 to then producing music videos billions and billions of you working with the biggest names and connecting with the biggest names and the thing about yourself is you're still in contact with these names everybody's got an agenda we'll want to do well to elevate ourselves but the fact that you have it just use people to get to where you've got to and then fuck them off the fact that you're still in a friendship I think tells you about your character but do you feel what you've achieved like do you know how bad it is or is it just nothing now well I'm starting to have a 7 year old daughter and so we're starting to like watch some of my videos and she's starting to discover that's where the next wave of enjoyment comes when your children appreciate what you did and maybe who you were at one point but I'll tell you what I miss I miss like especially with Rihanna like she would cut her hair and dye it red we do all this work to disguise and make sure no one saw it and no pictures when we go shoot videos out in the middle of nowhere or in studio where you can control it she cut her hair or dye it like the night before we do a video and then what we try to do is turn it around really quick and you knew that like wow tomorrow like there's millions of kids they're going to be doing the same thing you know when I hit send here it you shift things there's that whole culture it just turns and that power to sort of shift large groups is really interesting and you don't feel anywhere else you know I do a big campaign for Nike or you do a big campaign for a spirit brand or for X company and it's not the same it's a different kind of vibration this is like you're like plucking the string of culture you know and pop culture and so whether it's America or England or India or Africa or France or wherever kids are rabid about pop stars it's been that way since the Beatles and Elvis right going all the way back so having your hand on that pulses was fun it's mad because everything's changing now people are famous from TikTok Instagram they've not really done anything you know what I mean back in the day if you were famous you were famous you had a craft you were a genius at something yet there was brilliance but now people can be you can start a TikTok tomorrow and be the next big thing within a month flat do you see the change in the shift that's happening I kind of like my stepping out of music butted into like the rise of TikTok and some of that stuff and I think I also saw that coming and just felt like it was not where I wanted to be to be fair I'm 49 years old I was doing most of my biggest work was in my 30s in music into my 40s and at some point you sort of go like I'm gonna step out because of someone else's time and also I'm not out every night I'm not in the clubs I'm not like doing X, Y, and Z where like culturally you're seeing new dances you're seeing new styles you know like it's time to sort of step back and let someone else have it even now like when younger artists come to me I'm like go find me but next to you go find someone that you can build a career with you know go find that young filmmaker whether it's a man or a woman a boy or a girl a man or a woman and go build a relationship with them like I did with these artists you know you don't need me anymore you need that new person you know and that's cool that's like we're handing off and I like that I work with directors you know I've worked with several directors that became big directors now I'm working with a couple well-known directors and sort of helping guide them and you know I've got a I'll give you an example like my friend Yves Rivera like Yves like was like did all of 50s videos and cowards videos and you know had a whole another career before that and we became friends and I was sort of done by the time he came in and he got to a really high level and I said man you got to get out it's time to it's kind of you got to go into film you got to go into TV and he was working and finally got his opportunity and now he directs he's directed I think 20 hours of TV mainly in 50s world the last two years and now it's time to go and make a movie and so for me like helping be on people's shoulders say alright it's time or I think we should go here because it's hard you get addicted to it the money, the exposure the Instagram talking about you name checking you you get addicted to that but you've got to life is about an evolution you know I started as a photographer became a video director commercial director movie now I sort of live in that world you know those last two sort of making movies and commercials and if you don't if you don't step away you'll just eventually get replaced right that's the hardest thing is staying ahead of that curve yes to stay ahead of the game I watched the Elvis film a few weeks ago and he was breaking down he was the most famous man on the planet and he was breaking down in his wife and saying he was just scared that people forgot him but yeah he was the most famous man on the planet like do you see a lot of that with these superstars like they're scared that they're forgotten even though with the videos and the social media they're going to be around for many many years that is that a fear in a lot of these big names I think like with actors it's different than musicians you know we were talking earlier before we started I wanted to bring up Michael K Williams who just released his memoir that's in New York Times bestseller and one of the things that Michael says in the book is that he always felt he was a fraud because Michael K always played the baddest toughest guys from all more on the wire to Chalky White on Chalky White on Bore Work Empire you know he always played the bad guy he had this big scar in the middle of his face but Michael was the sweetest human being and although he grew up in Brooklyn and grew up in a tough time he wasn't a fighter he was a lover he was a dancer he was an artist and he always felt outwardly that he had to portray a certain thing but inwardly he always felt like a fraud and such a hard word to use because he was the most authentic guy but that was his own demon right I think the same thing is true with musicians like the ones that have the healthiest relationships are the ones that know how to create alter egos and they can be themselves and they can create the alter ego to do other things so there's always a difference between like Robin and Rihanna or Sean Carter and Jay-Z or that's important to bifurcate that so that you know how to turn it off because if not you can't I think Lady Gaga has done a good job of that you see she's Gaga the performer and then she figures out how to be an actress you know she knows how to turn and become other things yeah balance because if not you just sort of like are living in I think that's part of what happened with Michael Jackson you know like you're sort of like a very easy person you're so big as a star you can't go anywhere you can't interact with people you revert to this childlike sort of existence and it's sort of like spirals downhill you know it's interesting to be a man of the people you know very few people big celebrities can go walk out there and know how to do it yeah to find that balance and then posture syndrome it's sad to see such talents think they're not good enough I think they're being a fraud they're thinking they'll be forgotten what is that then like there's no amount of money or fame if you're battling up here can help you know it's sad that people can chase that for so long achieve it and then they realize that they're still fucking battling like did you see a lot of people getting to the top and then struggling the most or does it they struggle when they're constantly rising like I like we talked about it's like it's like it's like for you or for me same thing it's different things at different stages in the beginning it's am I gonna last am I good enough in the middle it's can I produce the hits I produced before but then you get more famous you see that it's like what about me who am I can have a family can I step away I think the biggest challenge law as artists is being able to take personal time between albums to actually grow as a human being that's a big challenge especially in a day where they want artists to put out albums back to back to back you know and like you look at the Beatles like they went to India you look at Sly the family stone he disappeared like you know their artists you know D'Angelo put out an album and then didn't put another one for 10 years well why the world's waiting but you realize people are battling you know their own demons and same thing is true like with actors in that sense like you realize actors like they're always playing someone right or for us as creators I have to if all I do is work I'm gonna be recycling ideas I've gotta go and spend time with my kids be a family man be a husband be a dad I gotta go travel I have to go inside you gotta do that work in order to get better at what you do or you're not gonna have you're not gonna have anything new to say you're just gonna be saying the same thing you know how do you find the balance then and for me like to be working with all these stars back then seeing friends dying loved ones dying biggest names on the planet but committing suicide like how do you deal with that and try and push on to keep striving to be doing the best that you can hmm I mean I think in the other day you gotta go home and you know you gotta put your head on the pillow and you gotta get up in the morning and you gotta do what you gotta do you know I mean everybody you have to separate your story from other people's stories you know and that's that energy and so whether that's working with musicians or making films or for me you know personal projects you know Brazil India, Sub-Saharan Africa being out in the field and photographing and documenting stories I spent a lot of time doing you know for about a 10 year period interacting with things that feel real because sometimes a celebrity thing just like it's okay it's not real so that's what you're spending all your time around how's that gonna affect you as a person obviously with kids it's different and part of having a family and having kids was me also giving up part of that lifestyle because it wasn't conducive you know you're chasing around celebrity and fame and now you want to sort of like chase family and kids you gotta separate it you know these chapters in your life you gotta be willing to sort you gotta be willing to give up something to get the next thing right it's easy what with actors or musicians depends on who it is awful fucking crazy I made a movie with Jamie Bell so I made a film called Surrounded that comes out of the year and it's Leticia Wright you know who's in Black Panther and was in small acts but incredible British actors and Jamie Bell and then Michael K. Williams and Jamie's like the most coolest most professional actor I've ever worked with in my life just like the guy comes to set and he's just like ready to work and he's your friend and he's there to work with you and some guys come to set people come to spend they don't want to talk and they're there do their job and go home and you have to figure out a way to okay am I getting the performance I want how do I talk to them how you know you have six actors in a room and each of them has their own style and their own personality and they have a different way they want to be talked to and sometimes your job as a director is to just like code switch between each person you know you have to be able to talk to everybody differently because they they respond differently it isn't sort of unilateral so that can be complicated you know the other thing with actors are is there how you talk to them how you communicate with them will determine their ability to stay in character or stay in the flow because sometimes you give them bad direction and you see it in their eyes you realize that they're getting they're confused by what you're saying and and that's more about like how my confidence or how I communicate so a lot a lot of actors like you know in monster Jeffrey Rice like such a legend incredible honor to work with him but every time I approached him I had to be ready and had to be really clear and sometimes that's hard to do in the chaos of chasing your day and trying to get the shot and finish and you want to just bark things at people sure you can do that with ASAP Rocky because he understands he'll communicate that with you someone like Jeffrey you've got to like calm down presence know your thoughts you know speak your thoughts clear and and less is more too how's ASAP Rocky with acting biggest guy in the room how's he how did he make that transition from I called him when when I sat on the monster you know monsters are very famous book and so I called him I said listen I'm doing this movie based on this book monster he said it's my favorite books the only book I read in high school I'm in whatever you want to do so I did a Lana Del Rey video with him where I made him JFK so he owed me I said I made you JFK you owe me forever so I called him for the film and and he's like I'm in I'm in and so you know some actors are really classically trained and some actors have no training you know and and and so their styles are different Rocky's just like his energy he brings so much and so his brother was killed when he was young and that was a big defining moment in his life and you know they were like real street guys and and I think it turned him away from that life to to basically music essentially was playing his brother in the movie so it was it was easier for him to tap into that what was challenging was Calvin Harrison Jr. who plays Steve Harmon because we he now is a very big actor but at that point he had only done a couple little things and so getting him to be able to be number one essentially on the call sheet so in every scene of the movie for 20 days it's exhausting so it's something like Rocky who has incredible energy and is used to being on tour someone like Calvin is not used to being from the camera all day and be directed all day and every day learn your lines it's it's a it's a pace there's like you have to pace yourself it's a marathon and so Rocky was really kind and sort of like the way he worked but also his charisma and his his energy and what he brought to the table you know incredible how is that making something dark as well that in your mind that can you switch off when you go home um no so how can that drive you insane then a little bit because even actors like Daniel Lewis who the method acting but I remember watching a documentary as well with Jim Carrey I think it was a guy Man in the Moon he was that character 24-7 and it was and he never get out it but the documentary says he didn't know who he was anymore if you're producing something dark as well that dark scenes that the brain doesn't know which real it's fake that do you feel that tension and pressure when you go home well the the biggest matter pressure on the movie was the fact that it's not my story you know I'm not a seven jail black kid in New York who's a victim of prejudice and race and a judicial system that wants to see them lose and go to jail so you carry the burden of showing the that book and that story and every kid out there that has that story on her you know especially as you know it's not my story so the amount of attention to detail and then make sure you're not creating caricatures and make sure that things are real but you're also pushing the narrative you're making people think you're taking chances I would go home after a long day and just sit on the couch and just stare at the TV for a couple hours and just you close your eyes and it's another day and you're back and sort of like you finish late on a Friday night you sleep half a Saturday you get Sunday off and Monday you're back in making a movie is a grind it's very hard and then when it's all done you take a week off and you go sit in a room for five months and stare at monitors my eyes were perfect until monsters I worked out literally I worked glasses after that movie because you're staring at monitors for four months and you know it's if you want to feel like all the confidence you can have from being a visual director a commercial director or a video director you go make a movie and you feel like a peasant you feel like a fraud and in other days you feel like a king but most days in edit you feel like I'm fucking shit like what the fuck why did anybody let me do this because it doesn't work and then slowly you keep trying you keep trying you start with hundreds of hours of film and you get it down to like imagine like you start with 200 hours of film and you get it down to 90 minutes so like 85% of what you shoot hits the ground you're only trying to extract like the best parts of it and so you first try and you get the wrong ones you put some back and it's like this constant flow for months at a time and you get little victories and little victories and you work on something for a week and then you watch it down you're like oh that was shit fuck back up let's go back to where we were and you just try again and people don't talk about that process on how hard that is the reimagining of a movie how long did it take to make you know the edit process the shoot for Monster was 22 days which is really short the shoot for Surrounder was 24 days posted about the same it's like it's like four months of editing and then a couple months of color and VFX and scoring and you know it's about 10 months on a movie like that when can you relax once it gets was it already going on Netflix well no we sold Monster twice we went to Sundance with it we sold it out of Sundance and then we that deal fell apart and then we had to wait we sold it to Netflix after that so that was a long period and even now you just never know you never know what's going to happen you make a movie with a partner and you never know what they're going to do you've worked with the biggest names on the planet was there any you would have liked to have worked with I mean in music like I always want to work with Radiohead and I always want to work with Madonna yeah I love Radiohead that never worked out on Madonna and some of those like the verve I grew up with those artists kind of bands I just loved, I mean it was 90s man drugs don't work in shit the forever I'm amazing people don't realise that Rich Ashproff is like the biggest Oasis Oasis and blood hated each other and it's sad that no Gallic and Liam Gallic I can't get back that it's wasted but maybe their albums were timeless at the start then 20 years ago 25 years ago yeah was he not getting slaughtered for having an act it's a great story so when Jay-Z did Glastonbury I guess I think it was Liam Liam who said this is bullshit this is a rock festival what's this hip hop shit I would just say the last thing you want to do in the world is pick a fight with Jay-Z you will lose he's just too good so he came out and did Wonderwall and he told me he looked out there was 250,000 people out there and there was just a wave of people and the last line is don't you know I'm a fucking rockstar and it goes into 99 problems he said the whole crowd just went like this he's like that's it I got him and it's just again it's the pop culture wave they didn't realise their time was up as big as they are as big as they'll always be it's Jay-Z their times have changed why do that why not call him and go do the song with him that would have been even more iconic if the went up and a wasis is there and then Jay-Z walks out into the song with him but nah they picked a fight with him so that's what they get it's mad I think he'd done the same with Lewis Capaldi he was doing the Scottish kid who was doing it in Glastonbury but he came out with a jacket on he came out with one of the racist jackets but he's obviously got that from Jay-Z but I remember that and it blew off and it's again utilising that negative to a positive is that where the genius of Jay-Z comes in it's chess not checkers the Gallagher was playing checkers and Jay played into a lot of things he did a song that's like so many levels he did a song that everybody loves he did it his way he took a shot at them because they said that he wasn't a rock star and then he parlayed it into into 99 problems with one of his biggest songs there's so many layers to what he was doing and how he was doing it and he's just he's just outsmarts people and that just shows where he came from it was Justin Bieber in that lake I'm famous for doing the video with Bieber where he gets beat up right when they call me I said I'll do a video only if it gets beat up in the video he was cool man he was like in that fluctuation point where he was going from being a boy to a man he was really like in that process of finding himself it must be hard for those kids though even they look at the one direction Harry Styles and they came out okay and they seem to be flying high again you look at them and you kind of think when they break up you're just known as kids but you look at them now their music is quite interesting a lot of people don't want to admit it because they know them as one direction but the power of their songs is unbelievable there's a lot of people musicians at the top of their craft take a step back and then start writing music people kind of forget who they are but they're making more money writing I guess it's hard I mean you know I think about I don't know we've gotten a lot of people interested in my daughter modeling I don't know I don't know with what I've seen if I'd want that you want kids to be kids but at the same time look at what Justin did look what he did for his family look what he did for his friends look what he did for music it's no doubt that he's an incredible talent I just wonder like what's your name goes on when you're an adult now and your father now how do you like step off that machine and actually be present as to like for a child what's your evolution as a man who's the best name you've worked with it's interesting because whenever people ask me that it always goes back to Jay and the reason why is that he's more than just an artist most artists are sort of like they're artists my relationship with Rihanna was really important because one I felt like her big brother at one time helping guide her but then when things got really hard she always came back to me and we kept working together and it was like you're watching somebody become this icon in front of your face and that was a really shit that was always special to me she's a billionaire she's a billionaire maybe more than one time more remarkable compared to the little girl that I met in 2005 you know and so like being able to stand there side by side and then back up and then watch from afar and then get a little closer and stand with them again and then it's like this interesting relationship of being close to somebody and also being away from somebody and watching them sort of grow into something incredible but you know what's great about my world is that the path continues and there's so many relationships coming you know there's always new adventures and it's like where you want to put your creative eye is where that new path shows itself you know so this goes on for as long as you stay relevant what was Drake like well we didn't talk about Drake at all you know I met Drake in 2008 I was doing a video for Mary J. Belage called the one and he was the feature on it he showed up with one of his friends it was like Oliver, no security he was just basically making mix tapes and then when his album came out he called me I shot his album Karuna did over miss me find your love I did four videos with him and I watched him find what became his style at that time on set with us he'd never really been shot the way that I shot him and it was cool to like give him a platform to take chances and discover that's when you know what's magic they come to you to do something and you do it and then they step into it and they evolve so it's not me it's them but the moment is what provides the safety and then we did a big project with Apple we've had our highs and lows it's remarkable what he's done he's a great guy last project I did with him was in 2017 we did a project with Apple and a couple videos and a commercial where he's the bench press commercial which was a response to the Taylor Swift commercial where she falls on the treadmill but he's man what a winner he's remarkable those names is fucking unbelievable you've not just worked with the biggest names you've also worked with the biggest brands like Nike and how do you how are you treated then around that and that bubble you must be fucking like I said earlier worked with these people you've stopped bulk friendships you've bulked trusts, you've bulked bonds you became the brother figure, the father figure you've cared about people who like that's the main thing I think people can feel that if somebody fucking cares people you're just used now nowadays people just use you, fuck you over and then you forgot about yourself you've stayed with these bonds and created this and created magic that's going to be like your kids will be watching it no doubt you'll probably not realise what you've done your kid wants to watch something that you've created it fucking makes you feel good special, how does what makes a good music producer how do you become the best what was your ingredients you're saying as a director in general just in general thank you for everything you're saying by the way it's nice to hear because I always say my least favourite day of the year is January 1st because the year starts over and you're like okay fuck what's this year going to bring and you know certain years are incredible and other years are just okay and certain years are even bigger than you expect it takes resilience it takes honesty you have to be able to look at yourself and your work and who you are I've had good times I've had bad times, I've behaved well I've behaved badly I've been kind to people I've been unkind to people I've been looking back you know when you have a dry spell and things aren't working or you're losing jobs like then when one comes you're sort of like wow I'm really appreciative of that that's also growing out too being able to appreciate what comes to you versus expect what comes to you the problem being a director is that you want these rides that pay you a lot of money you get all this stuff and you're with all these great people and that's not you you're still the artist, you still have to perform you're the person they've chosen to be part of it but that can easily be taken away and when you have it and then it goes away and then you earn it back again then you find a new one you learn this process of appreciation which is really everything appreciating everything that's happening right now I mean last year I was working with Travis Scott a good amount and I was actually in Houston when everything happened at Astro World when those 10 people passed away and I was working with him on an Apple campaign and I was directing the live show and it was an absolutely he's an absolutely incredible human being incredible artist like what a talent and then this horrible thing happens that when you see it it could happen to any artist when you're in a show with 60-70,000 people it's like the cup can tilt a little bit someone can die and that night it just happened to be really bad and there were some problems and mistakes but it happened and so you look at a guy who worked so hard to get to that level and now what what happens so like nothing is forever everything has to be earned and it's sad because you look at Ariana Grande as well Manchester she's a young kid, great talent and then stuff like that happens that can really send people off the edge but you don't think that she doesn't wake up in the middle of the night thinking about people that she does because people treat them as objects they don't see them as human beings they don't see them being sad or upset or suicidal or have the negative thoughts like I'd imagine that would be the worst of it let nobody sees you as a person as a human when they're crying in front of them or when they're crying in front of you breaking their heart they just see the music video, the fancy hair the big cars, agility sad thing I'd imagine about that life to be at that extreme so was it hard to pull back from the music stuff then like was that because you your wife and you had kids was it a hard decision? well I realized that you have to cannibalize what is working the most for you in order to get what's next so I did it with photography and I eventually stepped away from being a photographer even though I still take pictures or I still work with clients but not my primary job and with videos I sort of just ran my I had my sort of 10 years and you sort of go like it's not going to get any better it's only going to get worse and do I want to go live that life do I want to be on call because it is a little of that you know you get a phone call it's like I need you in New York tomorrow or I need you on a plane tomorrow or I need this right away and you start to you know I met my wife and we set and sort of just doing something different being challenged you know and so it's it was hard for a while to say no but eventually my focus just turned this way and then I sort of got pulled back in and came back out again I actually did a big video with the weekend and Travis and SZA for Game of Thrones and it was a really tough shoot because of it was connected to the show and it was one of those sort of like soundtrack songs and it just the feeling for me was like this is tough my head's over here it's not listen if Jay called me or the weekend call me but you know as I said to people like you don't need me anymore I'm good you don't need me you're good I'm good because there's always other people here everybody should have their time it's just mad that you have to step back when you're at the top of your fucking craft that's such a big decision but like you say you're on speed dial to the biggest names on the planet and you can make that call if you want to jump back in or not yeah but like I'd rather you know I go to shows now and put my arm around people and you know I always get the are you coming back nope I'm retired every time nope I'm retired who do you come out at a time at four obviously Jay but well last week my wife and I were going to the weekend show and he actually canceled the show like five minutes in because of the voice we had the babysitter and friends and we just sat down had a good meal and you know shows like J&B you know but it's always hard with two kids how hard is it for these artists as well when they start relationships like Rihanna's and Drake's and fucking Machine Gun Kelly's like they how does it affect them in a relationship after they break up breakups as well do they struggle or do they just you're saying the personal life yeah yeah because what you hope is that the music gets better what you hope is that someone like has a heart broken they write a great record you know that certainly happened Rihanna I think that her personal life influenced her her music in a way that it just I mean I remember when like my favorite video every day was Disturbia and like that was the moment where she said to the label I'm not doing anything except this you know I'm painting my nails black I'm like I'm doing all this dark imagery this is what we're doing and she paid for the video and I remember showing to the label and the label said um this is going to ruin her career and I said no way I'm talking to the head of the label I said I'll bet you anything he goes I said people love horror movies they want to see their idols torn down she'd been doing the same thing we've been pushing this is this is the move and she was right and she released the video and it was the biggest video she ever did when we did it but she took a huge chance and it scared even the people that ran the label that were legends and incredible you know visionaries you know like and then the day like no one could create Lady Gaga that's she created that right it's like the greatest artist the one that survives that's the time are the ones that have something special and so standing near it and feeling that energy and having a little part of it is what you stand back and you go okay that was amazing that was my time you know I don't know I may have a work with them ever it's mad isn't it but it's incredible what they're fucking done yeah the mom's a genius she's a genius what they've done in America like I said Ella if you're famous you're proper famous how do you feel about what they've done to the rest of the world I mean you walked through Manchester and used to make up it's fucking mad you go everybody looks like them with the skims everywhere it's incredible I think that's why a lot of girls struggle though because they look at them as 10s but they don't realize what they've done they put in it's scary to think that everybody lives their best life on social media but it's an illusion it doesn't exist it's fake but we're living in such a soft generation that we want to be somebody else instead of creating your own life I think we saw that with Kanye and her you saw their personal life come out and you realize that you know everybody is struggling in a way everybody has conflict just because you're famous and you're on conflict in your life who's Kanye? complicated another one? different but complicated like a true genius but complicated you know we did run this town together with Jay and Ree I did a lot of sort of writing with him behind the scenes stuff that never happened actually the first time I worked with him was for the source magazine I shot his first cover when he was really just starting as an artist he's like a ball of energy and you gotta be ready to stand next to that what I hope is that for me you watch somebody that has so much creativity but their behavior is so sporadic and it's like a tough you can see that he's managing his sort of emotions and his creativity and his chaos in a world that sometimes can't accept that and in the end of the day what he wants is total freedom from everything for the world as well I think we're moving in a direction where a guy like that has enough money and power to set himself up to just be wildly creative I mean you see that he just cut his relationship with Gap and he's cutting his relationship with Adidas he couldn't do that five years ago financially now he can so what does he do? he starts up his own company his own corporation, his own distribution he doesn't have to answer anybody it's just him he's one of those guys that needs that the question is like what's the message that rest to kids do you think he's misunderstood? because some of the stuff he talks about is bang on but other times I think fucks a bit far fetched but nobody knows what he's actually been through in that lifestyle he's a little mad though, he's like a mad genius he's clearly one of the great creatives of our time but fitting in to culture is a tough thing to do when you don't want to when you're a true rebellion is at the core of who you are for me I think about his kids I think about like his kids watching him act that way you know and so at some point you have to separate your art from your family but you gotta be able to do both you know? he's first to our albums we're genius, college school I think it was unbelievable I mean everything he's done is brilliant I mean like he's incredible he's one of a kind for me he's not my favorite artist to work with because creatively he needs a different kind of person than me I know the guys that he works with most of them and that's right my friend Nabil did a lot of his work it was the right thing for me it didn't work but everybody's different where do you go forward now with the future brother? you seem to have tacked a lot of boxes what boxes have you got to tack now? more movies TV helping a spirit brand build right now you know and just keep going man it's almost October it's gonna be January 1st we'll start over next year another movie next year looks like and then you know just one step at a time what's in front of me right now we gotta keep going what do you think about talking about your life? we've only touched on certain amount of things you talk about that for yourself does it make you proud of what you've achieved even listening to that the UK listeners and the people listening by thinking it's unbelievable the names you've worked with even working with one of those names is enough to make somebody household name you've worked with every single one how does it make you feel actually talking about it? fuck me I've done okay I have days like that and then you sort of go like wow that part's like you're watching it go down the river a little bit you know like as your life goes on you know it's like you time goes and I remember looking at artists that would have shows retrospective shows their work from 30 years earlier and you're like here's this old man and look what he did in his 30s and you know like what are you doing between and you sort of go like well how do I take every decade of my life and do something interesting with it you know how do I keep growing as a person as an artist as a man you know what I did I am sometimes I have to remind myself because you can forget because there's so much noise and chaos and you've got to like remember I just moved and I went through my archive and I was pulling out photos the other day from like 20 years ago and I was like wow I kind of remember taking this picture or like with my daughter I'll watch videos that I did and she asked me a lot of questions she's 7 but just re-explaining what I was trying to do or understand in my creative process that's where I find so much joy in this yeah it's unbelievable man you should be proud of that I've got a feeling you're going to end up back in the music game like because of your daughter as well because they do everything for them they'll be loving some of the artists and the fact that you can work with them I think she wants me to work with BTS that's why she's a Korean man that'd be her dream right now but for coming on today brother and giving me a time I thoroughly enjoyed that it's unbelievable but for anybody that's maybe in the struggle or battling what advice would you have for them take a deep breath you know take a moment and take a deep breath and walk it off because things change fast the world moves way faster and I think oftentimes we create our chaos and we keep spinning and adding to it and I found that in the most chaotic times of my life I could take my hand off the wheel for a second you know take a deep breath and wait things change brother again, phenomenal story, phenomenal career the best is yet to come again, forgive me your time anytime man, I'm excited to watch your success and watch your rise it's happening fast I appreciate that brother, God bless you mate