 Disaster. I don't think anybody expected this amount of confusion. This amount of using the street parlance, the band. This state of affairs where the government thinks that the problems beset in this country can only be resolved by outsiders. A situation where your government literally exhibits no capacity to govern. And this starts from the president himself. A government which completely shows no vision as to where this country is going in all directions. My hope is that this is going to be a lesson for the zambian people that not all that glitters is gold as they say in English. HH marketed himself as the messiah of this country. And of course he looked like a messiah against the background of what people saw in terms of pay for governance. But they now realize that he man himself on the time that he put himself across to be. So I think there are lessons here for everybody especially the zambian voters who can turn around when they listen to this argument. But it's you the politician that promises heaven. You know when actually you have never been to heaven you don't even know how heaven looks like. So it's a two way traffic. What is our message is if begin to evaluate each and every politician now ahead of the 2026 generation. When you say describing this government as a disaster there will be obviously others that will disagree with you based on maybe one or two issues. And these issues that I'm bringing up clearly this government when they formed governments they did get to make mention to say that they took up a government which was in ICU. And I continue to refer this because that's what they said. And then they were trying to put up all these measures to recover the economy then. So they put up economic recovery plans which they are trying to strive and see if they can get the results they need. No you did. You are just reading half the sentence of what they said. All they said is this that the economy was banned, that the governance under PF was a disaster and they are going to fix it. That's what they said. So don't read the sentence halfway. They didn't just make a confession that 10 people have been brought down. There are only a couple of billboards around Lusaka. There is one on the airport road congratulating him on what God knows. But all those billboards which they had put up saying that he is going to fix this economy out of shame have been brought down. But there is no board that he has fixed. I was asking are they not on that path through maybe the policies that they've made the time that they've been in power. Of course it's like they are almost couple in three years now. I've listened to that argument from the first week of the UP ending government. In the first week you used to say, you and others, now that seems to be the argument. You used to say no but they are just one week in government. After two weeks you said no but they are just two weeks in government. After three months you said no but they are just three months in government. Now you are saying oh but they are just two years in government. So where do we see this thing ending in terms of the countdown of the period when we expecting a success? Can we wait for the attenu which is like five years at least. Five years mandate. Five years of millimil at 220 kwacha? Hell I'm not prepared to wait. And I don't think anyone out there is prepared to wait. Presenter, people will disagree with you again. They'll say this is not the first time Zandi is experiencing high prices of millimil. It was there in the patriotic front. No no no. It was there in the perhaps MMD. No, that is not an argument for a government. If HH had said during his campaign trails, if he had said to the Zambian people, Well, you've experienced millimil shortage just before under unique. You've experienced the high prices of millimil under PF. Don't be surprised if the millimil price shoots to 200 when I take over. Nobody would have voted for him. Nobody would have voted for him. So that's not an argument in governance. An argument in governance is you are a sinner, you go to church to become a better person. That's what you do. The priest says to you, the pastor says to you, we accept all the sinners here. All those that have fallen out, fallen out of favor with God. Come back and be rehabilitated. That's what the pastor says. But if you went to church and the pastor says, well, you know that there have been sinners in this world. You know that all of you here are sinners. You know that you have no chance of getting into heaven. That church will be empty the following month, the following weekend. So the point is that Bashi promise. And I wish I would find somebody who coined that name, Bashi promise. Bashi promise, promised that everything that we saw as going bad under PF will be a thing of the past. Violence of kadas will be a thing of the past. Minimil prices that were escalating in terms of price will be a thing of the past. You used to go around with a plastic bag of Minimil during campaign and waving it to the people. And you buying Minimil in small parts like this because you can't afford a bag of Minimil. And everybody would say, yes. But Bashi, Bashi will fix it. Bashi promise, that's what you want to hear. You used to carry, you know, cooking oil in a plastic. You can't afford a bottle of cooking oil. You can only afford this drop of cooking oil because of Edgar, because of corruption in PF, because of bad governance. Come to me, those of you that want to have hope in this country. It actually sounded like a preacher from the United States. You know, the Pentecostal preachers, the way they preach, they move your plant. They move your emotions. And that was the party during the campaign trail. What does he do now? He's even scared to face the meeting. What is he doing now? He's being selective. Wasting the time in his state house by going to Woonsa to play with the students so that they can glorify him over millimil allowances. What happens when Woonsa closes? They go back to families that are starving. Is that a solution to the problem? Giving students mill allowances, fantastic. But these students belong to families. They are not workers. They belong to peasants families in the village. They belong to parents that are unemployed. That can't afford a bag of millimil. So what happens when Woonsa closes? They go back to these families and join the queue of starvation. What is there to go and celebrate? You go back to Woonsa and come to interact with the students. It just shows you that the man is confused. He has no idea. What is he supposed to be doing? I wouldn't do that myself as a president. And it's not as if this is the first time that it is being done. He had millimil allowances. But you know himself. I was paid a millimil allowance. I used to walk into the investment of Zembe dining free of charge. Look like a hotel during that time. So what in God's name has he done? For him Ria to be celebrating his way to heaven. Let's see how you can defend him before the callers come in. We are trying to have a conversation that is balanced. Especially when we are bringing up issues. They are in public domain. So it's not really defending. But we'll talk about the bad things as well as the good things. Let's talk about the recent announcement. The naps are partial with Joe. Isn't that not okay? Because you are seeing a lot of people queuing up at the national patient scheme to get their partial with Joe. That is 20%. Do you know how much they are getting on average? 3p. On average. 3p. Okay. Ask all those guys. On average 3p. But isn't that not a good pronouncement from the government? No, no, no. You must be analytical in trying to solve some of his problems. What the guy has done. And by the guy, I mean he changed. This guy that he promised. What he is doing is to defer the misery of these guys. When they finally get to retire. If you know the nature of our social security system. They will get next to nothing. Their monthly payments will be something like 5kwacha. That's what he is doing. He is consigning people to more and more problems in later life. When they don't even have the energy to work. So it's okay to be populist. Partial with the draw. What is 20% of a driver's 40 years of remittances? Social security remittances. It's next to nothing. What is 20% of a gardener's 40 years or 20 years of employment? It's next to nothing. So what you are doing, you are exciting this person today. Because 20 years down the road. But she promised won't be there. When this guy is starving to death. He won't be there. Yes. There is no need. I believe that we need to improve our social security system. I was telling a colleague of mine 2 years ago. I got a friend of mine. He was my teacher. He went back to Kwafiwa Second School in the 70s. When he went back to Canada, he got a job in Malawi. He was posted under the United Church of Canada. He is now retired. He is now retired. Okay. When I was talking to him on the phone. He says he is living on his retirement package. He is also got a job as a guard. In fact he said to me after this telephone call winter. I am going to... He is doing 2 things now. He is teaching Chinese children's immigrants. English. And also he is doing a job as a guy. But he is able to leave off his retirement package. He is still able to take his wife on vacation. He bought a property on Vancouver Island. And the man when I see him on the video call. He still looks the same the way he looked in 1978. He was here in 2014 when he came to visit me. He still looks the same. But look at our people when they retire. Immediately they retire. The complexion changes. They start looking gray. Because what they get is a pittance. Nothing. Next to nothing. Sometimes when they die. Relatives fight. Like sevens have. When they go napsa to go and get. Now a family is shocked. They find it is only 15,000 kwatu. Which can't go around. The extended family. So I take the view that we need a great deal of improvement. Of our social security system. So that it can look after people when they have left employment. The system as it is now it doesn't. It may also give you another dimension. The social security scheme is supposed to engender benefits to those that save. What do I mean by this? If you look at the houses in New Kamara. New Kawata. Chilenge South. I don't know if you know this. Those houses were built out of a grant by the local authority superannuation fund given to Lusaka City Council as a loan. So we need a grant as a loan. And very minimal interest rate. So those that were remitting money to Lassif were able to occupy those houses in the Livares. And you know how much you need to pay? 15 Kwacha per month. So at least you have a social security scheme that is giving you ultimately a decent living. Even in terms of shelter. If you are paying 15 Kwacha per month even if you are not working at least you have shelter which under the UN now is a human right. Today you retire you can't even afford a two room house in Mikaningalinga or Kanyama. So what security is that? It's a misnoma. Not a misnoma of the way. Social security. Must be social suffering. So we have to understand this system well. So just to argue. No idea about all these things. No idea. Resin coming by you and our life to the facts. I'm glad that you've taken us back to where family members would argue over maybe the benefits of a disease. Because then even the process of getting this money was a bit complex. I think a lot of families would agree and say they would agree with my sentiments that getting this money from Napsa after maybe a relative dies it was an issue. Some of them haven't even claimed this money. So this 20% which can be done even online brings a bit of excitement to people. It might be minimal but of course people are excited because they are able to eat that which they were benefitting. I mean they were contributing. If you ignore the principle of providence yes. If you ignore the principle of providence yes. You have every right to be excited. But if you take into account that you may live into the 60s and 70s then you must be circumspect about that excitement. It's just 20% that you're getting. You're not getting the whole money president. That's the point of making. That you are excited today but what you are going to get and what life you are going to live thereafter is a life of misery. That's exactly the point that I'm making. So you have a choice to be excited today and get your money. Use that money for a month and you tell your relatives, at least na temenda Ramazanda there is nothing that you are going to fight over. And if God gives you longer life then that period will be a period of misery. So what really should be your choice in terms of providence is better that you live a better life than now at the time when you do not have the energy at the time when you don't have a meaningful income that is what I would be encouraging my people if I were president. I know that we have people that are listening to us this morning and they are on those queues there. What would be your words Derek today? Well, should they go back home and not claim for that 20%? They are frenzy as already been whipped up. In fact when you listen I don't know if you have had an opportunity to interview some of the people there that are queuing up. It is a newspaper story. There are people that spend 2 days on the queue only to be told sorry you don't qualify. There are people that spend 3 days on the queue and when they get there they have a wrong social security number. So there are stories and stories there and I would have thought that media instead of just concentrating on the partial with the draw and the friends that goes with it would have taken time to go and get the real stories from those guys that are spending days mornings in the code days in the code as it is becoming chilly now to get the real stories we have to complete this cycle you can't just get HH's story you can't just get inside go and get the side of the people that are actually in the frame of this thing but you see the media is very timid you just want to say oh no but partial with the draw partial with the draw can't find out what partial with the draw means in reality go and find out you got your with draw how much did you get find out whether or not that really changes the life of a person I have a problem with you guys in the media in this country because you are not proactive this is a story that you are running but just listen to one man partial with the draw 20% and you end there but we bring in of course officials from NAPSA to Gama and explain further as well speak to the beneficiaries so called the beneficiaries don't speak to NAPSA management speak to my uncle who is a driver okay and this is the problem that we have you only want people that can come here to Gama no bring a guy that is coming to engage in a discourse with you in Nyanja that's a problem that I have with this nonsense of English being the official language listen how intelligent they are going to argue to you and how they are going to tell you how the whole of this thing is beneficial to them or not but you can't be selective you have to complete the circle like I say you have to start with the 20% pronunciation get to NAPSA how they administering it or managing it get to the so called beneficiaries what is the experience of this is it changing their life complete the story complete the story you can't be selective in this story you want one man to remain a hero or be looked at as a hero when he is actually a villain when he is just causing misery to people I don't think that's the right way of constructing society my view is that there is a story here to tell there is a story here to tell I have interviewed people myself that have been involved is a friend of mine who went and spent 2 hours on the queue and they gave up I just can't and if this continues it's going to breed corruption even within NAPSA because then it will mean you can only get your payment depending on whom you know that's the consequence that will be the consequence of that so all that I'm saying to the media is complete the story okay Bali is just being populistic that he got his NAPSA 20% and he goes and he paints you know and he really he thinks that as president he has brought the money on him what is wrong with this country really what is wrong with this country and the tabloids are screaming headlines he has helped do you know how much the missionaries did for this country how many schools they built what is painting a kama block at Unza that you must be running to heaven to go and report to God that I have painted TP5 what nonsense is that why are we being so simplistic about life why do we ignore the broader perspectives of a situation so I argue that this partial withdrawal and I hope I give long enough to see its consequences which I think I will because I know I'm right okay and I hope Bali lives wrong even after it's defeated in 2026 so that you can see the after effects of this nonsense I was asking so your word is basically the people that are queuing up right now it's a waste of time they should go back no no no no you shouldn't get the money no no no that's not the point that I'm making the point I'm making is this that they must be cautious they must know that the future for them is bleak that's the that's the submission I'm making okay that if I'm giving a choice not to take my partial withdrawal now and see and improve the social security scheme that is going to look after me in my 70s and 80s I would choose the latter that's the point I'm making so maybe if this percent was increased or it would have made sense can we go with that discussion as well 20% is quite small maybe if it was 250 or maybe above that it even makes things waste it even makes things waste okay because then it means you are eating into your life's saving okay at the age of 40 for example at the the remaining 20 30 years would be years of dire starvation okay so it is a duty of government to guide its people I don't think it is right for the government to mislead the people the duty of government is to guide its people into a better life that's not what UPAD is doing now it is not guiding people into a better life we have a society that people have gotten loans with various institutions some of them have defaulted and here comes the money that you worked for and you are getting 20% of it with no interest you are not going to pay anybody at the end of the day that's your money which one is a better one encouraging people to go for loans to invest or maybe to get the naps no no no you know you are turning the argument on its head I understand something because this is what is happening in state realities as well the point is this what are the objectives of a social security scheme I think that fundamentally is the question the objective is this it is for you to fall back on your remittances at the time when A. you have no job B. you have no energy to work C. you are in a trail of your life that is the objective of a social security scheme in short it is a reserve yes it is a reserve I come to you and say can you keep this money for me 30 years down the road when I am out of employment please let me have this money back okay and do you know that your remittances don't attract interest so there is no interest that your monthly remittances attract so you put 20p you get 20p at the end of the day you don't get 22p doesn't attract interest so that is what I come to say to you please when my years are declining can I fall back on this money so that it can look after me that's the objective of it is not for me to get it when I still have the energy to work that's a contradiction over a social security scheme that's the underlying contradiction in this partial withdrawal okay the idea is that you get the money when you are not able to earn an income what is happening now is that people are earning an income they are still employed as drivers then they go and be withdraw okay that's a contradiction over a social security scheme social security scheme is intended to look after you when you are in the afternoon or the evenings of your life and there is a purpose for that because A you know you don't have a family to look after you B you have no energy C you know you do not have a job etc but you have to eat you have to survive as a human being so when you say to me you earn 20% now then I put it in my pocket I am still practicing love isn't that a contradiction that's why it's called social security it's not security for me if you give me the money now what security is it I can still earn an income so beneficiaries of this are being advised to invest it and not just what can you invest not for consumption so isn't that not good also for our economy you know when you listen to H80 it's very annoying to be honest with you I'm glad you have said in it at the beginning of this program that the views expressed here are not yours and they shouldn't be yours no they are not they are mine it's very annoying when you listen to him it's a very very annoying fail in anything today okay do you remember one of the statements he made 3-4 days ago I was just talking to to jamia flashire the news don't spend time on social media you young people go and buy a center pivot from sorrow is marketing sorrow as if the center pivot they are free or they are one P go and find out from anybody who is getting this partial withdrawal if they can afford the center pivot that sorrow then I'm going to chop the next statements they are terrible unreasonable and misleading and people are laughing he goes to UNSA the whole president you know what he says to UNSA students you know female students stop going after sugar daddies is that his job DGT president he is the father of the nation what father? he is your father not mine what father his job is to start telling people who goes out with who that's what he can drive from state house to UNSA come on the president is serious this doesn't get to update the nation on morals and all that who checks his morals who checks his morals who checks his morals what does he have to talk about my morals I don't check his morals okay so this cultural thing of father of the nation HH is younger than me how can he be my father it's way way for a boy younger than me when I was living in the university HH was not there how can he turn around to be my father oh wow we are meant to believe that the president is the father of the nation so from that and who is the mother you must be a father you must be a father the first lady obviously alright to open up the phone lines a little bit to share your thoughts my guest is of course Ikrami Fransh president Rwintaka Mima my guest this morning on live issues the number people get us through for your contributions is 0977 624270 624270 that is 0977 624270 send in your questions on whatsapp as well so that we can alternate as we start picking up the calls at exactly 10 but let's move to something also I know there's been a huge debate around Zambia's debt restructuring the debate that has been there is that the critics of the government and I don't know if you fall in that as well the current government where the critics are there shall I be found so I take it you are there as well with the way the debt restructuring program is going it's bound to backfire because some critics feel China has been left out who we owe a lot actually as a nation do you think of that it's not even about China alone it's a whole principle of what this debt restructuring is all about it's a whole principle of the role of the IMF any any helping third world countries manage their debt trap because you know virtually all third world countries in this nicely constructed debt trap which is very difficult for them to disentango themselves and this is not an accident this is a deliberately constructed project by the West you see America today panicking when China Russia and the BRICS countries are trying to find an alternative system of international trade this is a deliberate system why is it that when at the end of the second world war if you read the history the United States had lent European countries a total of 12 billion US dollars that time lent for them to reconstruct their countries and then in 1948 they come and establish the IMF and the World Bank to help those countries reconstruct their their economies and infrastructure why is it that they are not indebted why is it that they are not in this debt that African countries are in it is because the nation state left by so called colonial masters and mistresses was designed in such a way that we shall perpetually be indebt to the western countries as producers and suppliers of raw material now I come back to your question if you remember when UPND took over government there were pronouncements from HH from the Ministry of Finance from Chipoka Monega as the Minister of Commerce that we are going to do to see value addition to Kopa that never again shall we export Kopa in its raw form we are going to see some value addition 2 years down the road now has anybody shown you a Kopa road of value addition has anybody come back to you and said this is the value addition you are doing to our Kopa nothing Kopa continues to be exported out of this country in its raw form so you ought to understand the history of this debt trap before you jump to debt the structuring you can't restructure what you don't understand in terms of its genesis this is a debt trap and it will be difficult for Zambia and any third world country to disentango themselves from this debt trap yesterday on another program I was giving an example of Argentina Argentina is the third largest economy in Latin America its population is 3-4 times of Zambia's population Argentina is the third largest economy in Latin America it has received a displacement of something like 52 billion from the IMF the largest amount of displacement since the IMF was established in 1948 go to Argentina today there are riots on the streets but commodity prices are affordable there is unemployment is escalating there is unemployment prices of commodities, inflation everything everything that was 52 billion US dollars was intended to resolve is just flying through the roof 52 billion US dollars and I think from that 52 billion they have been given 48 billion of that it has not solved the problem you are celebrating here an amount of 1.3 billion 1.3 billion so the issue of debt destructuring which they started immediately they came into power they said it shall be resolved in the next three months it shall be resolved in the next two months then that lady Margarita came the IMF managing director who is just an employee of the IMF and they church gives us impression she owns the IMF and therefore the problem will be resolved she is just an employee from Bulgaria but somehow you have a photo shop and status and you guys in the media you show us the photos and you give the impression now I think before she heads out from the airport she has left a man with HHE so our problems are over what did Musubotani say in January if I'm not mistaken he said the debt destructuring will be over will be able to conclude by the middle of march okay in the first quarter by the middle of march what is it today May he has run out of ideas he has run out of ideas he has run out of ideas okay so this is a complex historical issue and the only leader that understand its construction will be able to get their countries out not if you think that the solutions lie in washington you go to washington get a photo with the Margarita an employee of the IMF and all these praise singers HHE with the IMF the man comes back empty handed Stumbago goes there Stumbago is in him the man comes back empty handed now what has happened is stories have come to an end okay no debt destructuring yes the chinese have a role to play and they are not wrong if I were china you owe me money and you as arrogant as HHE this uncle and this uncle your arrogance is going to restructure your economy i will sit back so they try to invite the chinese to around the table and chinese will come back because china is a serious country last week we told that the relationship between China and Zambia is still okay there is a koti of relationship there which diplomat will say that the relationship is not koti diplomats speak very silently diplomats speak very silently there is no diplomat you heard HHE saying that he was on a 45 minute phone call he didn't tell us what they discussed he just told us the period of the call for 5 minutes what come out of that phone call? haven't seen anything so they have left him if you think that your solution lies with the west good luck be our guest we haven't seen that happen and i can tell you that it will not happen i saw a statement from the IMF or MD saying that the IMF will soon be giving Zambia the 1.3 billion years dollars this is the first time she is saying it she has been saying it since Janet Yellen secretary finance minister what happened Kamara Harris came to look for the house where the grandfather lived in the pre-independence daisy left many people if you ask people here your neighbors at the vice president they don't even know and they don't even care and UPND out of ignorance they made it a big thing like this is the first time they forget that the vice president of America was here in 1960-80 during kawanda's time 4 years after it depended but they are giving the impression that this is the first time that an American vice president is visiting Zambia so there is all this about my country where you can't understand so in short you are saying that the trajectory where UPND is moving and just the economy it's not heading anywhere even if we give them up to 2026 basically we will not heal even if you give them up to 2040 even if you give them up to 2040 UPND is HH Stumbeko and Arumango and everybody else even if you give them up to 2040 if today the president has to go so low and start discussing the availability of minimio in north western province with the minister he is very proud that you see the president used to sleep in my house during the time of the opposition and the president changes his mind he doesn't have major