 Jeszcze jedziemy, jedziemy, a stoję w ognieniu. Jesteś bardzo ciemna. Jesteś ciemna? Jesteś ciemna! Dzień dobry państwu. Witamy wszystkich bardzo serdecznie przed ostatnim dzień festiwalu Malta. Dzisiaj zaczynamy, dzisiejszego dnia mamy dwa spotkania. Dzisiaj znamy spotkanie z kuratorami tego rocznego idiomu Skok Wiarę. Naszymi gośćmi Michała Nongasia, który poprowadzi spotkanie, są Jan Lawes, Greys Ellenbarki i Martin Segers, których serdecznie witamy. Ja mam takie pytanie, potrzebują państwo tłumaczenia? Na język polski, prawda? Na język polski oczywiście. Czy może spotkania odbywać się w języku angielskim? Czyli jeżeli ktoś się potrzebuje tłumaczenia, czy mógłby podnić rękę? Może tak będzie najprościej? Mamy cztery osoby, a możemy się umówić, że te cztery osoby byśmy uzadzili przy jednym stoliku. Proszę państwa, to może zrobimy jeszcze inaczej, bo się okazało, że właśnie przybył do nas sprzęt. Jeżeli poczekamy 5 minut, to osoby, które potrzebują tłumaczenia, dostaną słuchawki i będziemy tłumaczać symuntanicznie. Także byście, że to jest najlepsze rozwiązanie, bo proszę jeszcze o cierpliwość, 5 minut i zaczniemy spotkania. Dziękuję. Ok, the score is 4 to 1. Proszę państwa, jeszcze raz powtórzymy komunikaw specjalny, nie dotyczy on w wyniku meczu. Berga badać 4-1, tylko spraw technicznych związanych z tłumaczeniem. Dotargo nas sprzęt, który będziemy mogli przekazać wszystkim osobom, które potrzebują tłumaczenia na język polski. Tłumaczenie będzie symuntaniczne. Do tej pory zmusimy się cztery osoby, czyli jest zapotrzebowanie większej liczby osób, czy zostajemy przy tym cztery. Osoby, które potrzebują słuchawek mogą zgłosić się tam do stolika, przy białym namiocie i je odebrać od pani anny, która jest naszym tłumaczem. Przypominam, że to nie są słuchawki na silent disco, więc będzie tylko słowo. Ok, ladies and gentlemen, I think everyone's got his earphones. And then we can start the translation. If it's going to work. I'm looking at Anna. Are we ready to start? Can we start? Ok, so if anyone more needs earphones, please go to the back of this tent and find it. Once again I would like to welcome the three curators of this year's Martha Festival, which are, and I would like to ask for applause. And I would like to ask you to welcome also Mr Spengard, which is the minister of culture of the country. Welcome, very nice to have you here with us. We've got a huge representative of Flemish people working for the culture. I saw Stefan Erichmans and his wife somewhere there. So welcome once again. Ok, I think we should start with the score. It's still 4-1 for Belgium and it shows that this meeting will be exciting for all the football fans. I would like to start with a question, which seems to be obvious, about your understanding. Your meaning of the title of this year's Martha's Medium, which is, of course, a leap of faith. How do you want to break the eyes? Yeah, you young. First of all I want to say a very quick thank to Mihal and his whole team of Martha Festival. It is a wonderful week here. To which minister of culture of power, Mr Mihal Erichmans? Please welcome. It's really unbelievable. It's the first time that need company can do something big like this. Also, thanks to minister of culture, my boss Sven Gott, who is here. So it is every night, there was something else. Every night there was something special for us. And we felt also during the week the leap of faith growing, which is a very good sign. And to be here with a leap of faith, leap of faith means a jump into the unknown. And I think that's a very beautiful definition of what art should be. Art should ask questions. Art should make you sometimes uncomfortable, make you think differently. So the unknown in the word faith was for us the reason to choose this definition. And yes, that is absolutely true. But also for me leap of faith is a movement. It is the leap itself that you have to be willing to take a risk to jump into something. And the jumping itself is something that you need to have an attention to make the movements to make yourself go into something that you don't know. And it's not only a definition of art, but it is for a lot of things or important decisions or all things in life. I would say we sometimes think we know something, but actually of course we don't. We all know that we don't know so many things, which could sound discouraging, but I would say let it be encouraging and go for it. It's a bit naive to think that we could really be the same being together, but we can at least try to somehow be together. So let's stress the courage to try that. Let's go. Probably having a collective of curators. It's very similar to the way you work as a new company, as a collective of great people making theater together. By being a curator in a group or by yourself, it's a kind of a challenge you have to fight with. So I would like to ask about the way you constructed your part of Maka Festival program. What was the way you were thinking about this idiom part of this year's Mata? It was of course a very bumpy ride. Everybody knows a bit of political situation, the problems with financial problems. When the Mata Festival asked us to curate, the assignment was to invite 10 internationally interesting artists. But then that was not possible anymore. So we changed our opinion. Your minister of God says no, so we couldn't come and then we talked very intensively about it. What can we do? Can we present the Mata Festival or shall we die? So we didn't want to die and we felt the enormous energy of the team of Mata and the conviction to go on with this. So that's why we are here for I think to make the choice became also very interesting for us. We are going to do six nights in a row in another country where there are conflicts like in our country in Europe. In every country in Europe is now a big conflict happening. Artists somewhere in danger I think. So to come here every night to have another kind of presentation, another kind of discussion with several artists. That was in fact when I started a neat company together with Grace 30 years ago, that was a bit the aim. And now I'm a very happy man that I could see in Bosnian what we did for 30 years. That's my personal feeling. I think we should all try. I wasn't even born yet. Was it even born? How old are you? I'm 17. It is very difficult to work with Martin because of this giant gap between us. Like you have a kindergarten. We managed, we survived. We only have one more night to do. I then we are free for two days from each other. The weird thing is for me personally that of course I've been performing every night. It's all about Martin this week. No, but the weird thing is that of course we are also here as curators. And we try to take that part of the job as serious as possible. But of course we've also been invited as artists. And I missed a lot of everything else that was going on. And I feel very sorry about that. I'm very curious about it. I'm sure you will hear of it. I hope you were all there on all the other things that happened. We heard from the public several interesting things of Polish work was going on. We were very sorry that we could not see. Messiah. Yeah, Messiah, but also other things I've heard of. Because you have to know that to come to Poland, coming from Flanders, from Belgium. When I started theatre in the 80s, the great examples of theatre came from Poland. You were very, very strongly present in Europe in the 70s. And the inspiration from Krakowski, Tadeus Kanto, and now Rupa Walikowski. It's an honour to make theatre here. And still now when you see, like for example the reading of the book of Stefan Hedmans yesterday, I think here on the Liberty Square, the actress. I saw her also, I forgot the name, sorry. I saw her also playing with Walikowski. You have such a good performance, such a good high quality of actress. That when people appreciate what you do, you know also the quality of the public here. So that's why it is a great inspiration also for us to be here. So, what you said a few minutes ago, I think we need to discuss a little bit longer. Or maybe you will just tell us your opinions. And the audience would like to take part of this conversation. You would like to participate. We invite you to talk to us since the beginning. Not to wait until the last part of this meeting. You said that we see the conflict in Europe now and the art is in danger. Not only Poland, but also in Belgium, all around Europe. What you mentioned before, given during your lecture last weekend. So, why do you think so? What are the biggest threats for the art and culture in nowadays Europe? The biggest threat for art is that art is like your mayor said a few hours ago to me that art can save democracy. I think that is what art is. Art is like what Grace says in her work, unbind your mind. I think when you choose for a nation and not for people, when you don't choose for solidarity or whatever. When you build walls, then you destroy art as well. Art has to communicate as artists is binding people together. So that's why there are a lot of nations or a lot of countries in Europe who try to push Europe in a nation situation. And that's why the first thing they do is stop with the art. And that is why I think we have to be careful that we defend art. There is also puritanism coming in. There is much more censorship. There are more and more paintings forbidden. Paintings that were like 100 years in a museum, like Kruppes Lorigin du Monde, is now taken out of the museum because it's too provocative. And it was hanging there for 100 years. This is what is happening today. So the reactionary forces getting more and more vulgar. And more and more they get more and more power. And that's why I think there is a danger going on. And luckily we have good artists and we have good people and we have good public to defend them. Why is that? Why is the reason that this vulgarity and puritanism is growing up in Europe again? How do you think? Or should we really go into that? I have to ask my minister. He is much more in politics than me. I think that people are more directed into seeing something in a certain way. And it is, I think, fear. I think that's why art is so important. That everybody should have the freedom to look at things in their own way. I think that it's a very difficult question, what you ask. I think you can only just, well, recognize that fact of evolution. And when you talk about art being endangered, I think that's also a very complex sort of remark, because actually, of course, art means something else for many different people. So once you connect words as good art or bad art, or something that's significant or insignificant, or optimistic or pessimistic towards the future and so on, it's of course totally depends on the people who look at it and use it or don't use it, and consume it or don't consume it. So much more even than art in itself and the production of it, it's about how it's been regarded and how it would be, what's the word in English, well, just used, let's say, or equipéré. I think when Grace says fear, it is about confirmation. Art has to become a tool for confirmation. And that is not the meaning of art. Art should not confirm. When art is confirmation, then it becomes entertainment. But the problematic part is of course that when you want to share the art that you make, the people who come to accept it are also wanting to accept it. So it's a difficult sort of cycle of confirmation to break. Because as long as you stay within the format of making and presenting art as we do it, in a way it's kind of a safe cycle of course. But art is not only a format. Art is not only a thing that you have to take a distance to. I think it is a lot to do with imagination and that's why it is not something special or something that some people see or other people don't see. I think it has everybody experience art because everybody experiences that you can dream or that you can imagine something that you can see colors or so. I would like to ask, because I had a chance to see only a few of your works here at Montefestival. As you said, the program is really huge and you have to choose what do you want to see, what time you can see or what do you have to be. But I would like to ask you about the method of your work. I mean, the way you're choosing the subjects you're working on, like what would you like to show to the audience, what kind of themes or subjects seems to be important to you. Neat Company is a group of people. Neat Company is founded by Grace and me, but we are trying, Martin, Grace and myself, we are creators, we are artists, we are working in a house in a small part of Brussels, that was heavily in the news, in a heavy way, with terrorism and jihadism and all that. We are living there and it's fantastic to work there. It's a very big source of inspiration. We have an open house there. There are more people working there. So now in the Malta Festival we present a few films of people, newcomers in Belgium. We try to open the house. We try to not only make productions as theater performance, but we do visual art, we make films. And there's always one person who takes responsibility for one item, for one production. Grace makes a creation and Martin is performing in his life forever. Then Martin wants that Grace takes the responsibility. That's an agreement. There's no discussion. But during the working programs we try to be inspired by each other. So it's kind of a collective way of thinking with somebody who is in charge. That makes it quite unique, because we also have always very vivid discussion about what we are making. So it's an ongoing process. And that's what I felt again here in Malta, when I saw the work of Grace and the opening night of Martin. And now we are doing more in Turkey time. It's the different qualities of us. And there is a link between us. There is some kind of... There's a human approach somehow. It's always about the authenticity of somebody on stage, I think. That's our aim. There's a need company. It's also always linked with international art. That means we were from the beginning. Speaking in four languages, having seven, eight, nine different nationalities. These were things that we have chosen for. It was almost a political statement to say let's make with the language international theater. It didn't exist in the 70s. We started in 79, 80. For the first time it started to grow, this international theater. And it doesn't make it easier. So that's also one thing that we do. Let's not make it easy. Why should we go the easy way if there's a difficult way? That's what we do a little bit. And for how long do you stay in Malta? We moved one and a half year ago. And before that we were based in the city center. I'm asking because yesterday during our conversation with Stefan and previously we were hearing Marbuza Tagore reading his great play. What's happening in the game? Why am I saying this again? Are you watching simple while we are talking? No, I'm checking this call for you. But it's 4-1, still 4-1. Sorry, Mr. Minister. Do not always believe what politician says. Coming back to Murlenbeck, which is a very important place in our this Brussels. Stefan said and he wrote this play. Did this move you make? No, to do a new place. Changing your perspective on what you are doing. And how do you work with the other actors? I think it was a possibility for us to open up our group to have more possibilities to invite young people and to be aware of the city. My mamy teraz więcej spacerów, żeby zapytać ludziom, żeby skończyć coś dla ludzi, którzy przyjeżdżają do nas. To jest to, co się zmieniło, że możemy mieć możliwość, żeby być bardziej świadomie, że żyjemy w Brusie. I to, co to znaczy, żeby mieć kontakt, nie tylko z okazji, ale też z młodych artystów. I żyjące ich możliwości, żeby używać naszej spacerów. To się nie ma. My żyjemy też w bardzo pięknym czasie dla artystów. Myślę, że jest to bardzo dobrze, że jest to zniszczenie, że są to reakcjonary forsów, że jest to młoda generacja, która jest bardzo śpiewana. I że, na przykład, wiele nowych komercjów przyjeżdżają do Europy. I też tam jest nowa generacja, bardzo fajnych artystów. I my próbujemy, żeby pokazać się z nich, żeby pracować z nich. I więc też jest to tendencja z hashtagami, też z mężem artystów, z mężem artystów. Jest to wielka dyskusja, która mnie inspiruje, a dla mnie, personalnie, muszę być mój artystów, by się wszystko reprezentować. I tak, myślę, że dla wszystkich to jest inna opinia, ale dla mnie, to mi się podoba. I ja mam wrażenie, że w tym i kilku latach artystów will change a lot, dlatego że świat will change a lot. Artystów will follow and be totally different in a few years. And my hope, my hope is that theater will survive, because I think what I said before, the authenticity of theater is a personal stage is more authentic than somebody in real life nowadays. To go inside a room to see somebody doing something is almost a futuristic idea now. And that makes it very beautiful. Grace agreed with you, so I would like to ask you can we predict what kind of change is going to happen? I don't know, no. I think it is very difficult for me this attention to things. I think that is hopefully it is coming back. I feel that things are coming back, like all this attention on multimedia, all these phones, everybody walking with these phones, that change the way how you look at things. And I feel that younger generations are already taking a distance of that and start to look again to quality of things. So I cannot predict it, but I feel a very strong connection to young artists and also to newcomers. I have very interesting conversations with this generation with all different colors. But you have also yourself, you were also a refugee. You came from Surabaya, but at that time it was not so significant as now for you. It was, but we forgot about it. Exactly. When I was two years old, I also left my parents left Indonesia and we came to Europe without anything. And they left everything behind. But yeah, you forget about it because you're happy and you are able to follow school, to learn things, to meet people. And I think that is so important. That is what we have to give each other. The freedom to educate, to study, to think and to imagine things. And I have the feeling that this new crisis of newcomers, of people that are coming to Europe, we should think back to the history and we have these waves of people leaving their country. And we are in the middle of this wave now. These are always the most interesting times and it is nice that we cannot predict what the next art is. I think we can, if something will change, is I'm quite convinced that the idea of exotism will disappear. We looked before to African art or to Chinese art as an exotic new element. We were watching Japanese dance in the 80s, 90s. We didn't understand anything or put or not. But we appreciate the exotic idea behind it. We were attracted in an exotic way. And this is over now. When I talked with the newcomers, yesterday we showed the film of the young Syrian refugee around. Maybe she's here? No, she's not here. And that is no longer an exotic approach. There's a down to earth, art core, art approach. And art is no longer exotic. Let's say that the western supremacy of what is beautiful or not, or what is art and not, this will disappear. There will be something else. Me as male white, older person, should rethink my definition of beauty, should rethink my definition of art. I really forced myself to destroy this exotic approach towards other cultures. This is what we have to learn. This is very interesting. What you just said, I'm still coming back to yesterday's conversation with Stefan Herkman. Stefan said yesterday that, for example, there are very interesting poets and writers from the Maghreb countries who are changing a little bit their literature in Belgium or in the Netherlands. And they are using all a new language, which is transforming their literature. Do you think that the meeting with people coming to Europe, to West Europe and to your collective needs company can somehow change the way theater will work? Or do you think they will bring something new that will change the way you're working and change the way it's showing things on stage? For sure. I think a very nice, important evolution, a fast evolution, is that it's changing from, let's say, us, as Western artists, talking about those people in some sort of a documentary way, which has been happening a lot in the last years. And that now more and more this can also make space again for their actual art, ones that people have arrived here and they are being embraced in our system, that they can actually produce what they want to produce. And sometimes it would still be, of course, about the topic of them being refugees and so on. But it could even be other topics that they would be treating when they would still be in their country of origin and so on. So that very fast there becomes, there's a stage that's available for their own content and not only for our regards on them. And also that there is another background. Let's not forget that we have the 20th century, we have modernism, postmodernism. A big part of the world never heard about postmodernism or modernism. It doesn't exist. So I think that is also something that we have to put in our minds and that people are jumping over the 20th century. In China they did it. First reaction of the Chinese artist in the 90s was, let's copy, like Ai Weiwei, he copied Western artists. Now they say, no stop, we don't copy anymore. Let's go back to our own history, which is very rich 5,000 years of art in China, comes back. And then we can find the balance. Of course it's exotism. That's what I think is happening now. And I think we should question ourselves the 20th century was maybe too fast. I thought it was a relief to read yesterday in the newspaper that the piece of art, the urigoire du chen as the most significant art object of the 20th century is probably a lie. It's not from him, it's from a woman. The most problematic piece of art of the 20th century is maybe bullshit. This is something very interesting to think about. And then we can talk to somebody else. That's what I think. I would like to ask you one more question, but if there are people in the audience, here you can clap your hands, that's great. If there is anyone in the audience who would like to ask our curator something about, just let us know now, is there anyone? No one? You were preparing for that. I would like to ask you about the world in turpentine. We saw yesterday in the theatre, which is a fantastic play, so congratulations. And I would like to ask that the way you presented the wall, because I have even had a conversation with Stefan Redman about it today in the morning, that what you saw as this wall part of the play and of the book, it's no guns, no gun machines, no tanks, just one-on-one simple human play and fights. And so many, and so much animal instinct show on stage, the way the people are fighting with each other. It's like in tribal, tribal somehow many years ago. So why did you decided to show this period of our history the way like this? Well, it's written, Stefan wrote this, in the second part of the book, it's about the war, and when I was reading it, I was reading quicker, like yeah, yeah, Stefan is disgusting. It is now, I don't want to read that, you know? And so war is not, it's not possible to show war. All the war films from Steven Spielberg and all these people, it's a shopping entertainment and we like to see war films and it's fantastic to see how blood goes. But this is fake, war is boredom, it's fear, it's things. And so you cannot do that. So when we were working on the second part, I was totally confused yesterday, I saw it again and I said it is too much entertainment. It's still beautiful. But how can you make something boring that is interesting? How can you show that it is not comfortable to be in a war zone? And that was, that is always my frustration when we come to that scene, so I said to Viviane, shut up, just show this text like it's boring, it's boring, it's boring for half an hour. And then you feel what war can be. Five one, thank you. Probably you're going to win the game. So it is, yesterday I thought again, let's change this whole third part again. Because it is impossible. And what we put on stage in this half an hour is the bodies, is the sensuality of the bodies and to try to not be together and be together, something like that. And it was the most difficult thing to to direct and to do also, because how can I ask Mohammed or Grace or Martin to say, just beat the shit out of each other. Just beat each other and they are always painful in the rehearsals and then you have to go to hospital or this dagger was in somebody's eye and I'm sitting there and go on, a bit harder, it was almost reverse. And so that is the difficult part of the job that we do. You take risks as a performer but maybe you should talk. You start this five on stage and you follow the first step and then you go into another. It's like in the psychiatric experiment that when you start to beat even if it's your friend then you're in that fight and you wanna push it harder and harder and that's what I saw in the stage yesterday which was amazing somehow but how it looks like from the actor's part and actor's side. It's just really funny to do. Is it really Michael? Is it funny to do? I hate it. No, it's great fun. But of course it's not real. I mean, we hurt each other but we love each other. That's why we can do it because we love each other we can hurt each other otherwise it would not be possible. But I think of course that's also part of... Except more on that of course. That's also part of Jan's choice and approach on that moment is to see whether stuff should be choreographed or should have a sense of realness. I'm very interested personally. I was very happy that this project because I'm very fascinated in where performance could also be questioned until where you hardly see the difference between something that could be real. So this real aggression was like a... We never had this sort of experience before as performance. Yes you do. Your shows are always about that. It's always about the limit but can you do it with your body? Also more... That's more towards myself. Not so much towards somebody else that I like. It's still a difference but of course I see what you mean. There's some sort of... Of course you want to show and I think maybe that's something we also share in our works that you want to show the actual people. You need to go through this process of performing and not so much acting. You know that if you don't perform as an acting? That's clear. So the acting is in fact based on reproduction and performs based on production. So you do something only once then you perform. If you have produced it you become an actor. That's a little bit... That's an easy definition to work it. You become more performing than an actor. Just to clear that. I can punch grace differently tonight and we don't know yet what the outcome will be. What can I do? So somehow there's a realness of the experience and the unexpected outcome of the situation. I think one of the most amazing things I saw a couple of years ago was in one of the companies a performance collective called Contact Domzo and they were having this performance where it's all about the agreement that they can actually beat the shit out of each other without being angry about it after the show. And it's extremely aggressive and it's very difficult to watch in a way because of course you don't want this realness to be in the framework of something that the theater is. But I think we're also beyond the era where it's all about illusion. So it's a very interesting part of the field to work in right now and I'm happy also that within this very epic theatrical narration that we made with Jan that there is this questioning of performance up until that level in the creation. Anyhow, when you were lying under this small stage with the musicians on I was afraid that they would crunch your bones when you were there so it's really moving even in that part of observing. That part was acting. That was acting. How nice to dangerous. You didn't perform okay, that's cool. The final score is 2 for Tunisia 5 for Belgium, so we won. Congratulations. Oh, it's done. Stop saying this. So unfair. Are there any questions for our curators? We can take revenge tonight. I'm with you, no worries. Poland is playing for everything tomorrow, so no worries. Any questions for the curators? Okay, I will go with my microphone. So much, it's okay. Yeah, I would like to go back to this international context but also like coming back to the local context because you said that you started to create your kind of theater it's supposed to be the international from the very beginning but you actually you as a root from Belgium and so do you think that it would be possible to create something like this outside of Belgium or Flanders? Of course. I think it's the best way to start is to come from a very small country like we are from the north part of Belgium, those Flanders and they are 6 million or something people speaking our language so as a writer you cannot sell so many books if you are French you have like 75 million people speaking French or more so there is also an urge for us in Flanders to read, to learn other languages even to just to read books they are not all translated so we have a normal situation that most of the Flanders people speak what we languages and so that's already helpful you see that in Sweden also they speak always very good English it's a necessity for us to learn English and French just like here you can easily speak English to a lot of people in Spain it's already much more difficult because Spanish is much bigger language so because of the necessity of reaching more people you are used to speak different languages so the step to go to work with other people in other languages was maybe not so difficult even I know I'm not really talking just about the language why it's also no but that was the easy part for me it was a political choice of course to I was working with founder of the whole Flamish wave in the 80's by Christmas is here as well the white man in the sunglasses Hugo the Great he started everything without him we would not be here that's Hugo the Great give him a good applause come on if you mean how do you start doing that well but I want to go to that when we were working four years old we were talking with Hugo the Great we were seeing what does it mean to make theatre how his dream was to make an international festival my dream was to meet other people he started a guy festival and we saw Wuster group we saw people from China from Japan they come to Brussels for the first time for the first time and you see other cultures now it started and at that moment a few years later 85-86 I was living in Antwerp the Flamish block which was a fascistic neo-fascistic party at 33% of the votes they became extremely nationalistic in Antwerp and I said we really have to start something and that's why I started need company infrastructure it has to be international we've taken English title just to to make a fist now I should not do that anymore but then I felt a necessity so it was a political statement and also a very ambitious statement that could exist because we met people at Hugo who was also thinking how big is the world for this internationality for you to reach as many people as possible to meet and work with people that you don't speak the language that you start working with Argentinian actors with Spanish actors and it was so strong that you realized it is very easy to talk with people from other countries it was very easy to go abroad and communicate with art there is no problem in communication when you play war interpretant here or we play it in Tokyo you can talk in the same way there are of course very beautiful differences but essentially you can talk together and before the 70s before the 80s it didn't exist it didn't exist so for us it's now quite normal for you to say to you yeah it's easy to start I think you should start it is there now international theater is not new anymore it is there but there is international theater going abroad to play internationally and of course also there is the fact that within the collective of people we have people with very different backgrounds I think that's probably easier to do nowadays in Brussels than here because we are just we are all there together anyway yeah that's why I'm asking here it's not so much the case yeah exactly and especially in the theater like with this all romantic history we have and it's kind of a heavy history we have but isn't it just isn't it easier because you are saying that people abroad when you perform they understand so isn't it just also the matter of the language of the theater and on the other hand how your style can impact internationally because I have a feeling that you are saying whenever you refer to the internationality of your works it's not just that you speak whatever language you want to speak it's also okay you work with group people that come from very different countries but it's something in between that became this internationality I think and do you also perceive it like this or it's just like my impression I don't think we think about that it's also a lot about how you are being received it's also very much how you are being invited and being received and that maybe if you say wow we have this whole history to deal with before we can come to something else maybe we have less of that problem and that's maybe that sort of work would be welcomed elsewhere you know but it's not only an ambition from for example this company or other companies to go somewhere else it's also the ambition of places in the world to get open and receive new sort of informations and maybe in the past it has to do with some sort of a degree of exitism but now of course we are beyond I think the company we have such a global connection there are so many festivals there are so many groups travelling that the exchange between young people goes much quicker than before so there is on a certain level it's easier and the competition is bigger other question in a way this example of the movie of Rant is very interesting because she is from Syria she arrived not so long ago in Belgium and now how many years? two years ago only she arrived in Belgium and now she is producing movies that are now being shown in festivals internationally so this network not only spatially but in time of course unseen sort of tempo and space but I want to point out if we talk about the film of Rant it is not because she is from Syria it is not because she is a refugee it is because she is a brilliant thinker she makes a good film that's why I have to say and that's why I say it's no longer exotic it's no longer exotic it's per definition the aim of every festival to show the good things to work on a high level and that it doesn't matter if you're Polish or Flemish I don't believe in that anymore I think the quality of Rant is because it's a good artist and that maybe you can say because what she survived traveling towards Europe, the horrific stories she had behind maybe that enriches her as an artist that's another of course another dialogue we have to have now are there questions? yeah there is one hi I would like to come back to this name a bit of faith and when I am thinking about a bit of faith it's like something that situation when a father is in a swimming pool and tries on the builder to take the risk jump and father says don't worry trust me you can jump so leap of faith is some kind of do something unknown but based on something on some promise or something you want you expect to do or expect to gain or just to survive so my question is to what is your art right now in your standing in front of some kind of leap of faith for you why do you say as a father watching you jump no it's a tip of faith that a father is not there no no I have to believe my father to jump and when you don't have a father and you know that new child do you jump do you jump that's a tip so what is faith faith is decision to believe somebody faith is unknown is not believe do you think like this faith I believe I have to choose between something and this is for me this is faith or I believe own opinion or something but it's always based on something yes it has to be related to something it might be believing but to me the word can easily be exchanged with trusting it is for me totally based on the word trust the father the father at the swimming pool could be the art history that could be helpful but even then it's not because your father is at the swimming pool that you jump I think that is that is too easy I think you take the word faith and very direct and leap of faith means that you jump without that there is a father you jump in the unknown you go to Mars with the rocket and you see what happens something going to Mars you expect something you believe you have hope that's why Grace says it's about the jump so the jump it's about the jump so jump is more important than expectations and what you can meet there that's always Nietzsche what you say now the jump is more important than the landing that is Nietzsche I agree a bit on that OK, but I think it's it's really important to know why you are jumping and what do you want to achieve I think it is also important to know that you don't know why you are jumping when you always know why you are jumping then you can make the decision not to jump anymore I understand what you say the necessity of the jump OK, you made the metaphor of the swimming pool now we go to the Niagara Falls there is a point of no return when you go up further than the point of no return you die, you go in the Niagara and you dead so imagine you are there with your child your child falls in the water on the point of no return let's change the title of the idiom your child falls in the water the father will jump although he knows he will die if he doesn't jump he will be dead as well that's a leap of faith yeah, OK thank you is there anyone else who would like to ask a question good afternoon I'd like to come back to what she said about illusion and the transgression they're all isn't there a necessity of illusion because once real thoughts are exploring on stage then when it's you and it's the artist that basket himself that's fine what you said about loving a woman agreeing upon it but what it does to the viewer it inflicts something very dangerous in the viewer isn't there any border animal that you think that separates what art should be and could be from what potentially be very harmful to both the individual and the society for sure, I think I don't really agree I don't know where that border would be or how to define it but I very much agree and I think when it becomes documentary to me I have a to accept it as art for example although that has been a very confusing area for many years now I find when I go to see art of course I understand very much the socially engaged aspect of documentary but when it is actually about realness I understand that it becomes very difficult to just accept this as art for sure what we were talking about before of course is that within the framework of this illusion that theater is to accept to work around this idea of realness which isn't the same as totally accepting it as the truth on the other hand sometimes it's very simple like last night I went to see the show of Lopke in the castle in the first 20 minutes I was so uncomfortable because it looked like they didn't breathe out since the beginning of the show of course it's not a big problem if they actually didn't breathe out then it's their problem they won't die for me there I know that we are still in the agreement of the illusion you know also we are not promoting something that would go necessarily beyond that people have been trying to do that in the past and visual art was very much about provoking that and since that has happened of course we recognize that and acknowledges this as a sort of inspiration and also as something we need to use in our questioning when we make performance art but clearly it's part of the investigation and of course when you talk about the show of yesterday night with Viviane de Manc as the storyteller for me it has also whether they are fighting or whether there is a nice beautiful image happening it's also about the quality of acting the material Viviane de Manc for example the way she did her narration yesterday I was blown away even I saw it so many times yesterday that the level of narration was so high that this is also part of the game of course I don't think I really think more and more that the authenticity of Viviane on stage and the times it takes to tell the story this authentic moment becomes for me more and more a necessity and that's maybe because I'm getting used also to just as a mess to make I don't write letters, we write mails so everything becomes shorter everything becomes more compact so also in this authenticity we are talking already a whole week the three of us about the time we use on stage when is something getting boring what is boredom on stage why do you feel that something is too long how does it function in your head when you start to get bored and why is it in my experience that the best shows I saw or the best film of Tarkowski there's always a moment of total boredom I fell asleep a bit and then I wake up again and I see the most beautiful part of the film so what is that that is authentic time feeling I think I think that you also talked about how people can be disturbed and how we think about it and Martin answers that anyway theater is an agreement that we are going to imagine something that is not real but also sometimes it is the opposite sometimes we do performances in musia and we do for example a whole night and I would people we could do something just sitting somewhere or doing an action and people can come very very close and then it is also we that take the risk that somebody could disturb this or hurt us or you know so I think we are very much aware of what is illusion and what is real and I think also the audience has a very big part in that right, thank you Hi, I wanted to refer mostly to something that Jan said during our conference at the university a few days ago because we know that you have both the experience of working in a theater collective and being institutionalized theater and during the course of the discussion I was somehow made to believe that there is a huge gap between the way in which these two instances somehow work and I wanted to ask you what do you think are the things that they can learn from each other because I think that there is a bridge that is possible to build between working in a theater collective and working in an institutionalized theater and I think that you as a creator have a basis of experience to somehow build the bridges between these two experiences I don't know if you need bridges there it's possible I think what we do with 8 company but you build but what you are talking about is my experience, I worked 5 years as an artist invested in Burstia in Vienna which is the biggest ensemble in the world 140 fully paid actors and they that's a very industrial machine and in the beginning I was very skeptical about it but what we do coming out of the performance your body is your content your mind is your text who plays who I play myself this idea we come out of that and when I write for Martin or Grace when they play my plays I write for them or Grace gives a text that we are working together and we are trying to work a long time with people I work with more than 10 years with Martin more than 5 years with Mohammed people stay in the company because there is something nice happening in what does it mean to make art that's one thing then you have the professional actors of Burstia who are highly trained actors and some of them are really really really very good but they are total into reproduction they want they have to play every night in other parts so they have to find a mechanism to not be themselves on stage or they die that's what they say so one actor said to me my hair is private I will never play with my own hair when I leave the building nobody has to recognize me and I was laughing in the beginning and then I followed what he was doing for a few weeks first night he played Shakespeare and always the main part because it's really good when he walks out of the theater nobody recognizes him and he said my ego doesn't exist when I work and I was touched by that it's another job and it's a beautiful job and the result could be the same and that's so extraordinary when he is good and Grace is good although Grace her approach can be totally different when it's good it's good I don't care if Grace lies on stage about herself or not I don't care to tell the truth or not this is not what it's about we don't tell the truth but we try to be truthful somehow but this guy saying my hair is private it is also a very honorable approach to do theater so there's a bridge already because I respect it my experiences by the way after 5 years I said I can not make what I want to make with this movie that's impossible they don't go far enough they will never do the second part of war interpreter they will not do that they will not do that because they cannot do that every night that's the difference Proszę Państwa będziemy kończyć jeszcze dwie sprawy o godzinie 17.15 kolejna rozmowa będziemy rozmawiać o religii i nowoczesności gośćmi Państwa i moimi będą Pani Karolina Wigura Pani Ludwik Don i Ojciec Tomasz Dostratni to już za nieco ponad pół godziny a teraz chciałem jeszcze zaprosić na scenę dyrektora Barty Michała Marczyńskiego który prosił o głos w języku angielskim post-wedziennik post-wedziennik jest przyjechany więc nie robisz się nie chcesz nie chcesz chcę dziękować do naszych kreatorów za to, co oni robili przez cały weekend przez cały czas spędziłem Marta od 2010 przez kilka tutaj i mówię, że nasza relacja wygłupowała przez ten rok ale chcę powiedzieć jedną rzecz myślę, że w tej, jednej z najlepszych kreatorów performing art teaterka ma specjalny miejsc jako sposób narracji ale bardzo, bardzo specjalny miejsc ma muzykę i my przeżyliśmy to specjalnie na według myśmy przeżyli, że w wielu performacjach od pomocy tutaj w Poznawej muzyka Fragile Izabela Ruhu, Martin i Hans Fettel-Dau Martin ma specjalną produkcję nie dla Marta, ale premier był tutaj jak Hans Fettel ten muzyk miał specjalną produkcję z muzyką to był muzykiem wtedy był Izabela Ruhu i to jest komponator ale Herbert Fokarayan nazywam go Herbert Fokarayan Roma, bo nazywam go Herbert Fokarayan z nami piękne piosenki piosenki ale muzykę nieważne muzykanie muzyki everything seems great here but what we saw here on Wednesday a this very special concept maybe that's the good metaphor i w ten moment my zobaczyliśmy the loudspeaker i tamthere were the source of written soles of sound and we were like the resonator Wiem, gdzie jest ten loudspeaker, gdzie jest to, co się dzieje, co się dzieje, co się dzieje, wszystko to rezonuje. Więc myślę, co mogę dać do nich, wymknąć, żeby ich żyć. Mam nadzieję, że oni będą zbyt zadowolone, ale co mogę dać do nich, i ja wziąłem się w dnia, dymu, dymu, dymu, żeby oglądać polskie muzyki na LP. I jedną z nich jest polskie muzyki. Ale jedną z nich jest Grace. Grace Ellen. I to jest oldestie LP, publishowane przez Eterna. Eterna był legendarią, odpoczywany przez klasykowe muzyki w DDR. Deutsche Demokratische Republik. Ale oni miały ogromne rekordy, ponieważ oni kupiły almost everything from Deutsche Gramophon. I to jest legendarią rekordy, żeby ich żyć. Który był... na początku, o tym, co chodziło, żeby się odpoczywało. Więc ja byłem zrozumieć, czy powinienem do ciebie, czy do ciebie? Myślę, że tak. Ale dla Martinu byłem oglądany przez coś bardzo specjalnego. I znalazłem, wczoraj, coś bardzo specjalnego ponieważ ten LP nazywa się Rytm i Są. On jest dużo dla rytmu. I to jest bardzo świetne rekordowanie od 87 na polski band, nazwany Ossian. I to było rekordowanie na polski band na polski band na polski band I to jest absolutnie wystarczające. Myślę, że rytm wygeneruje rytm ale te są różne, ale fantastyczne rytmy i ta balancja, która rytm i syna jest świetna. Ta kawałka jest w bardzo świetnym formie ale ten LP jest w bardzo świetnym formie ponieważ to są olde LP 85, 87. Jaki rytm jest w bardzo świetnym formie. Jaki rytm. To jest jeden rytm. Przez kilka lat widziałem Jaki rytm na polski band ale nigdy nie widziałem jak tutaj kiedy on był rytmą w tym koncertu. I to było jak wszystkie styli grając w gitarze dla tej rytmowej partii. Ale nie jest rytmowej partii na tej rytmie. Miałem konsultacji konsultacji i to jest fantastyczne rekordowanie z 1972 jest wystarczające rekordowanie z określonych u krainy i to jest to moment kiedy w Niemiec w Prawo Sławie autodoksy celebrują rewolucje więc Jaki rytm u krainy cały czas i ostatnio chcę zapytać o Elke Elke kiedy będziemy mogli z Elke rozmawiać o wszystkie rzeczy jak jak, jak, co, etc. Wiedziałam, że jeśli rozmawiam z Elke to rozmawiam z Janem bo są bardzo zbierani ale ona jest absolutnie świetna i zapewne najlepszy rewolucja w rytmowej partii jak ona gra i i to jest lp z rewolucją rewolucją na jazz i myślę, że lp nazywa się Kirill Manjarov świetnie dziękuję dziękuję dziękuję dziękuję dziękuję dziękuję dziękuję dziękuję dziękuję dziękuję dziękuję dziękuję dziękuję