 Think tech away, civil engagement lives here. Good morning in Aloha, ladies and gentlemen. I'm Pauline Schachmachin, your host for We Like the 1%. We Like the 1% focuses on individuals and entrepreneurs, and all globally-minded entrepreneurs have Asia on their agenda. Joining me to discuss doing business in Asian countries is Rob Hacks, CEO of Insight Inter-Asia. Good morning, Rob. Good morning in Aloha, Pauline. Aloha. Thank you for having me. No, it's a pleasure. Thank you for being my guest today. So we've got a lot of ground to cover. We can't cover all the Asian countries that exist in the continent, but we're going to focus on Japan, China, and Korea, because these are the three main ones that everybody seems to already have their radar on. So before we get to the cross-cultural etiquette and differences, tell us a little bit about yourself and your company Insight Inter-Asia. Myself, I got into Asia very much through the back door. I had not grown up or anticipated working in Asia when I was in college. And I graduated as a petroleum engineer, engineering from Tulane University in New Orleans. And the first company that hired me was a Japanese company. Very interestingly, I thought I had a nice resume with all this engineering degree and what have you. And the one small line item said, I could speak Spanish. And that's because I had to take a language all through elementary school and up through high school. And it was a very small item on my resume. They said, you could speak Spanish. So that means you could learn Korean. I said, I guess so. Sure, if you show me where is Korea on a map. They sent me to live in Korea and started selling the products that this Japanese company made. And it started in Seoul. This was our 1990. And that started my career in Asia. And it just sort of never ended. And then from there, I was transferred to Singapore and Taiwan. And then I switched companies and worked for an American company for a while. And then I eventually started my company Insight Inner Asia in Singapore, 2006. And I moved to Hawaii in 2011. And so Insight Inner Asia is now based in Honolulu. But we still operate everywhere throughout Asia with branch offices everywhere. And so the countries you had talked about China, Japan, Korea, that's really a lot of people would refer to that as East Asia, often throwing in Taiwan, depending on the industry that you're in. And what my company does is sell US and European technology products into Asia. We also have a smaller company that's doing very well that my wife manages. And that's called Hawaii Karah, the Karah meaning from Hawaii, selling Hawaii products into Japan exclusively. And what type of technology is Insight Inner Asia offering? Is it AI or that kind of thing? Oh my gosh, over the years, it's been many, many things. But there's always been sort of a fundamental base in semiconductors and microsystems and sort of silicon-based products. But over the years, we've handled biodevices, some pharmaceuticals, silicone molds, many, many different things. We've worked for consortia that we're trying to draft members from Asia into the consortia. So it's been a myriad of products. And your wife's company, what kind of products is she involved with? She's selling what I would consider sort of upper and a bit more expensive products from Hawaii into Japan, jewelry. She's representing a very nice candle company now, cookie manufacturer on Maui, some customized wrapping paper, very, very interesting products. Yeah, wonderful product. And necessary. It's not only pretty, but it's very necessary when you're doing business, especially with Japanese people. Well, exactly, you don't. It's no secret that Japan in general are Hawaii files and it's not a stretch to sell Hawaii products in Japan. You just have to get in front of the right audience at the right time. Okay, brilliant. Thank you. So what we're going to do now, we have a lot to cover because there are a lot of details, we're going to use Japan as the framework because most of these countries, all three of these East Asian countries, there are several overlapping elements. So we're just going to use Japan as the backbone and weave in the Chinese and the Korean differences and the similarities from them because this is, we're discussing the inscrutable Japanese and their neighbors. So inscrutable is something that, the expression that was given to the Japanese because they seem hard to figure out. But once you know the little tricks on how to get on their good side, it's not so difficult, is it? No, I don't think so. And in fact, I think your overlap is quite right because after the war, again, it's no secret that Japan did an outstanding job of rebuilding itself and getting ready to take on the United States industrially. And it really got kicked into gear as the winter Olympics are kicking off right now. In Korea, the Tokyo Olympics in the 60s really got Japan front and center again on the world stage. They've been very successful in many things, cars and what have we, we don't have to list that. It's obvious. But I think over time, Koreans and Chinese saw the success that Japan had and in many ways emulated some of their business practices, not necessarily culturally, but the way that they went about doing things business wise and the structure of the industry, academia, government cooperation is quite similar in Korea and China following on the success Japan had. The cultural aspect is in reverse because Japan borrowed a lot from China and Korea a thousand years ago during the Heian period. This is when all things Chinese were fashionable and Korea and China were really responsible for introducing Buddhism into Japan. I find that that's true. History books are complete with that, but you won't get many Japanese people that like to admit that either. The educated ones have no problem with it. It's the nationalistic ones that can be a little bit. But it's in all the history books, as we said. Major Library, the National Library in Taiwan has a lot of material on that, so yeah, it's just true. So let's get over that, please. Now, let's start with the famous Meishi, okay? The business card. So everybody doing business, especially in East Asian countries, need a business card because the perception to Japanese people if you do not have a card on you is perhaps that you don't have any identity. You're not legitimate. Yes, you're not necessarily a fraud because you could have a Meishi and it could turn out you're a fraud. But there's a sense of group thinking. So the individual does not exist really. It might be changing amongst the younger generation, especially people who have been educated in Europe or America. But generally speaking, the tradition is you need to have a business card on you at all times. Carry a lot of them with you. If you have a member of staff that is responsible for that, make sure they have a lot all the time because you don't want to be short if you're meeting a Japanese team. There'll be several members of the team meeting with you. Correct. Now, preferably English on one side, Japanese on the other. And there are special printers who can do that. And the difference between the Chinese is that it's ideal to have a Chinese name in China, right? They might give you a nickname in China. I think that's true. And in fact, it's a habit that I picked up in Asia, particularly in Japan and Korea, having the business card, the Meishi in Korea, it's a Myeongham, having it available at all times. And there is a way to do it and present it like this. But it's a good habit. That's something I picked up and I always have business cards with me. I think that that's something that we could learn in this country. I see people a bit too casual with that sort of thing in this country. And I've seen it in Europe, too. Japan probably is a bit more extreme. The Koreans and the Chinese are not as strict, but I agree with you that it's nice to have... Well, let's backtrack. In Japan, you would just translate your name. Yes. You know, Pauline, right? It would translate into katakana. And the alphabet used for foreign names, yes. It would be in katakana. If you became a Japanese legal citizen, a citizen of Japan, you do have to get a formal Japanese name and there would be some kanji associated with that, generally speaking. In China, you will get a nickname, like you said. And what was your... Pauline translates very nicely to baolin, a little treasure. And my surname, although it's complicated, the Chinese told me that it sounds like mahjong. We had a very lovely time with them. I happened to be with a group of very keen gamblers. See, my name was very funny because in Japanese, it's very easy haku. It comes out as haku. You almost always have to end with a vowel sound, haku. And when you take it into Korean, hack translates very closely to the Korean word for nuclear. So, well, but they thought it was, they thought it was like a very powerful name. So it was like, my first name would be Robert, but it translates to robot, like a robot. So nuclear robot in Korean. So the people always got a chuckle out of that and thought it was very great name. Very great name, right, very in Korea. In China, my name was not that interesting. It tended to just be like Black Saunders. Oh, okay. Something like that. Some pictograph. Yeah, and nobody really cared. My China staff came up with that name for me. But of course, people need to be aware that there can be differences in pronunciation around China and certainly in Taiwan and Hong Kong. Okay, now one of the frustrations Western business people have with East Asian countries, especially Japan, is we're used to receiving replies to emails very quickly. I heard in New York, I think in seven hours, if you go beyond seven hours, it's rude. So this doesn't work in Japan, okay? So the Japanese thing is, I noticed they vent their frustration, the Westerners, when how come I didn't get a reply? And this to some extent is true in Hawaii as well, because there are a lot of Asian-Americans here. So that passes on to some extent. And to a Japanese person, looking at a Western person being frustrated by this or showing their anger, it's kind of like watching a gorilla rattle in its cage. So it's not a good idea to show your temper in any of these countries. Loss of temper is very bad. Showing anger, even if for example, the Koreans showed or display anger, you shouldn't do that yourself. No, I don't think so. Especially if you are a salesperson or you are trying to sell your products, it does not bode well to be emotional whatsoever. You're there to represent the company. You're not there to represent yourself. You're trying to show the stability of the product and the organization and the whole supply chain behind the product. But you bring up a very good point because to my estimation, the Koreans are extremely emotional people, men and women. They're the poets of Asia, that's no secret, but they're just extremely emotional people. It's very easy to read anger, frustration, sadness, glee, what have you. And then it gets exemplified by going out and drinking and having a meal with them because it's very clear. And the karaoke. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Whereas in Japan, it's a bit, it's a lot more subtle how to read people there. But over time, you learn how to do it. It's pretty straightforward. And the other thing, manners being very important in Japan, along with the others, it's this business about never be late to a meeting. Sure. It's not a good idea. The first impressions count for a lot. In any country, to be honest, but even more so. You cannot get more formal than the Japanese in dress, in manner. And the formality gives an indication of how professional the person is. Somebody could be actually totally useless and unprofessional, but if they look the part, that impresses the Japanese. It's a little bit superficial, but it works with the Japanese. And the other thing is being late to meetings. If you're five minutes early in Japan, you're late. That's the saying. So, and it depends on the rank of the individual you're meeting with. So if you're meeting with a CEO, such as yourself, or a very high-ranking person in a company, it's ideal to be there half an hour early at the bare minimum. It's true. You don't have to make yourself make a big production about you being early. You just have to be visible to the secretaries or what have you so that everybody knows you were there and you're ready to work and ready to be called in. Just in case the CEO happened to say, oh, I finished early, why don't you come in. Being late is terrible. Absolutely, culturally terrible. It's not just for foreigners. If you're a Japanese person, you're late to a Japanese meeting, it's probably worse, right? So I take that very seriously. It's something I learned and it was a very good takeaway for me. People I know think that I'm very anal retentive when it comes to time and being on time, right? I mean, I'm not one of these people that needs to be at the airport seven hours early. Not that kind, but for meetings, when you're meeting another person, you should be early. Yes, and this is just purely for business purposes that half an hour, that's a little bit extreme. 15 minutes is enough for a middle management type meeting, person lower down in the food chain. 10 minutes is sufficient for a social meeting. So it's completely opposite in India where if you're on time for a party, they look at you funny and they don't know what to do with you. So it's best to be an hour late. So you have to be careful. Remember what country you're in. But I would add that getting there early is great because you never know what can go wrong between the time you get to the building and the time your actual meeting is. So you could conceivably have problems with the elevator. The elevator could be broken. The office could have moved than to what they've told you before. So it's better to just get there early and prepare for that. Oh, okay, brilliant. So speaking of keeping an eye on the time, we have to take a quick break and we'll be right back after this break. Welcome to Sister Power. I'm your host, Sharon Thomas Yarbrough, where we motivate, educate and power and inspire all women. We are live here every other Thursday at 4 p.m. and we welcome you to join us here at Sister Power. Aloha and thank you. That's you. I want to know, will you watch my show? I hope you do. It's on Tuesdays at one o'clock and it's out of the comfort zone and I'll be your host, R.E.B. Kelly. Be there. Aloha everyone, welcome back. So we're going to continue this discussion about lateness, timing, delays and replies to emails. So you want to be on time for the Japanese meetings but don't be flustered if they don't reply right away. And what does that mean if they don't reply right away? Well, I think you have to look at it from a very practical standpoint that you're sending an email to them very likely in English and there will be some hesitation on the other side because you're almost assuredly, unless you're at the very senior level or dealing with some academics, English is not their priority and so it will take them time to draft an answer and they usually have to get it approved. The answer can't just be sent instantly with a one button push. There could be two or three people above them that need to look at it and approve it and that's the potential for the delays. But I would also add, I've met many Japanese companies who think that dealing with Hawaii companies is very slow. So you have to look at it from both sides of the equation. That's the island thing I discussed with Ralph yesterday. Yes. So the island situation is a little bit of a different kettle of fish. So, okay, so everybody in Hawaii is familiar with omiyagi. This is the traditional gift that is given upon meeting, upon establishing the start of the business relationship. Usually if you go to somebody's house, like Westerners do, you bring something very simple and modest. Don't start with an expensive gift because if this relationship goes somewhere, the gifts are just gonna get more and more expensive, is that correct? Oh, eventually you'll get up to a car. Yes, or paying for somebody's education. So, one of the children's education. So what are some of the examples of very simple gifts people can start off with? Oh, cookies. You can never go wrong with cookies or crunchy snacks in Japan or the rest of Asia. There's so many wonderful cookie manufacturers here that that's the perfect example. Everybody will be able to use those. Also, I would add, you do have to be careful and make sure if you're dealing with government employees in Japan, you cannot take them anything. Yes. And they have to refuse it. Because it looks like a bribe. Yeah, so don't even attempt that. It's different in China, but in Japan or Korea, don't even go there. Yeah, so it doesn't depend really on the quality of the cookie. The cookie should be nice and fresh. But the most important thing is the wrapping, is that right? Absolutely. That's where your wife's company comes in. Absolutely. We have the Maui Cookie Lady here who has fantastic cookies. You shouldn't take chips away or these kinds of Kepler type things, which are all perfectly good cookies. What about homemade ones? How do the Japanese? Yes, if you said my wife I made these for you know, she knew I was coming and so she baked these. These are her family recipe. You know, give a little story behind it, right? That would be wonderful. Yes, I met one Japanese gentleman who is with, I believe he's sort of a visiting fellow with Ritsumeikon and he used to be in the government. And he said he shares his dumpling recipes. So dumplings, things like that. Yeah, so if it's personal, that's okay as well. As long as they're a good cook, right? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and then they make sure they don't get sick from your business and dry up for it. And no homemade Fugu dinners. Okay, that's not a good idea. You have to go to a specially licensed chef for the Fugu dinners if you really want to impress somebody. So we already know the business about the numbers. Three and eight, Chinese pay extra money for for their mobile phone numbers and the license plates. Same in Japan, maybe less so in Korea. Stay away from four and nine. She and Ku, the death and pain in Japan in particular. But nine is lucky in China because this is the emperor's number. Yeah, that's correct. They really do believe in the number situation. I've seen, in my career, I've seen it mostly China, Taiwan and Korea secondary. In Japan, maybe third. But I think it's, for the people I've dealt with in Japan, it's just because they're, I don't know, not that interested in the newsmatics of it. Okay, so as Jack Nicholson says in A Few Good Men, what are we going to discuss now? My favorite color. So colors are important. So you don't want to be writing in red in Japan because this is the color funeral announcements are made in. What are some of the other color schemes people should be made aware of for Japan, China and Korea? And is there much difference among the three? I wouldn't say there's much. Well, red is a lucky color in Chinese culture. Yeah, not in culture. The bride wears red in China. Personally, I think just black and blue ink. Black is probably just fine and wearing black suits has gotten me, I mean, just my business where it tends to be black because it's just so easy and you can transition into any environment quite easily with just a black suit. There is something about black in Japan, I think as well, that if you're in a lesser or more inferior role because hierarchy and rank is very important, the person is trying to make themselves look invisible in some way. It's a good point. The recruits that are just coming out of college all have a very black uniform. The women have very designed to the knee. Below the knee, slightly below the knee. And the men are very strictly even black ties and they have to do that for a few years as they're rookies in the company and what have you. But I just think as a foreigner, you stick out anyway. There's no question that you stick out. There's no point in trying to hide that, but there's no reason to wear a big flashy suit like from 1976 or something walking down to Tokyo. Just. American hustle. Yeah, exactly. I think just a black suit or navy blue. Of course, if you're in banking, they tend to have a bit more pinstripe and they still have the white collars on blue shirts and that sort of thing. But you'll find senior Japanese people will dress very, very conservatively. Yes. And now there's a book called Kiss, Bow, or Shake Hands. And it's a little bit backwards on Vietnam, but for China, Korea, and Japan, it's fairly spot on. Yeah, I think it's very useful. Now, I find all this rather amusing because we were discussing earlier that this cross-cultural trainer or instructors, it's sort of a slightly bullshit job, like a yoga instructor. And I wonder how many clients they get because it's getting to the point where what's happening is that the Western person is being instructed on how to behave with the Japanese in terms of if you are going to bow, please do it properly. Don't do a bad bow. That's insulting. What we were advised for male and females is just a nod of the head if you're not sure how to bow. And then the Japanese, for example, or a Chinese person or a Korean person is being trained in the opposite how to deal with a Western person, a European, a Brit, or an American. And they're taught, grab somebody firmly by the hand, give a firm handshake, and look directly in the eye because they're uncomfortable with direct eye contact. You should look at the neck in a Japanese business meeting. They don't like a direct because they feel like you are trying to penetrate into them. But that's considered the norm in America especially because it means you trust the person if they can look at you directly in the eye. So one group of people is being trained one way and the other is, and then there's a confusion when they meet on what to actually do. So isn't this all rather a bit of a nonsense? Because I personally, what works for me is I seek out Japanese who are English-speaking and have some knowledge of Western Europe or America or have been educated there. And it's just easier. But I would say it depends on your industry too because in a lot of industries, as I said at the beginning of the conversation, I came from the semiconductor industry. And there, it's not easy to find English speakers unless you're at the very senior levels of the organization or the organization has cultivated English speakers to help in a certain situation. But I really think it comes down to just kind of a common sense, keeping your eyes open and understanding that you're in a different culture. But again, trying not to go overboard. When you see the opportunity, you bow. But you don't have to put your forehead on the floor, that sort of thing. Like a show gun. You're bowing to a show gun or something. But they will have the same thing. It's not normal for them to shake hands. So if somebody does try to shake hands with you, OK. But in Korea, you do both. You bow and shake hands. That gets rid of the problem, doesn't it? So that kind of erases the problem. But I would tell you that people from China and Taiwan, I know they have the same problem when they go to Japan because they don't bow. And they don't know exactly what to do there, right? So it's a universal problem. And one of the things that strikes me as funny is that people ask me if I speak Japanese fluently. And I know a lot of words. I have a very good accent when I do speak Japanese. But no, I do not speak Japanese fluently. And they think that's strange. But you see, if you're in business, it's probably a good idea if you don't speak Japanese fluently. Because you almost have better advantage if you act like the silly American or the bumbling Brit sometimes. And why is that in your experience? I would say if that is the strategy, you do have to have a good translator that you can trust. Yes, of course. You have to have that. And you have to. I mean, there's lots of business cases where the translator that was being hired and some big international deals had been paid by the other side to help out. So you do have to find somebody you can trust. But I do think that international business has been going on for centuries, right? I meet so many people that go to Japan or Korea, wherever. And they feel like they're the first person in history to go to Japan. And you're not. There's a lot of people that have done it before you. And they were able to do it successfully without speaking Japanese. Now, I'm fortunate because I studied it and I married into it and I lived there for a long time. So my Japanese is good. But I don't, if I'm in a meeting, I don't jump in with that. There's no reason for me to start off with that skill because I can learn a lot by just keeping my mouth shut and listening. Yes. So, yeah, there's my. This is important in China as well. You want to listen to others. Absolutely. And the translator is useful in Chinese business meetings because it actually gives you time to respond. There is a lag. One of the, a big thing I've seen with Americans in particular, Americans are not happy with a pause in a conversation or, you know, a silence. Silence. And in Japan, Korea, certainly in Japan, there's a lot of pauses while people stop and think, thinking of the words to say carefully. And a lot of Americans get very fidgety in that situation. Why do you think that is? I don't know. I don't know. I think that possibly the culture in the United States emphasizes communication. And smarter people are able to communicate better. I don't know that I don't know how to say that's true. I just think that that's how the culture awards. In Japanese traditional architecture, the focus is on the spaces or the shadows. That's why Katsura villa, the Japanese prefer Katsura villa, the imperial villa with the shadows, as opposed to Shugaku and Rikyu. You know, the Westerners prefer Shugaku because more decorative. But the Japanese always look for the empty spaces in between things. Well, it's very true. So that's one of the elements I think that is affecting that. I've seen it so many times in my career when I've taken Americans to Asia, but particularly in Japan, that that's something they're just not comfortable with. In an elevator, you don't speak in Japan or on the train, on the subway, you just don't talk. OK. And the most important thing for everybody to keep in mind, apart from all these little details and nuances, is just be yourself. That is the most important thing in any country. And with that, aloha, ladies and gentlemen. And I'll see you next Thursday at 11 a.m. for We Like the 1%. Thank you.