 Today we're debating the causes of Russia's war on Ukraine and we're starting right now. With Adam in Destiny's opening statement, thanks so much for being with us. The floor is all yours. So I suppose I will start. I'm gonna keep this short. First off, I'm glad that Jackson and Haas finally collected their courage to actually face this in a debate. Last time they pitched out, oh well. Second time at the showroom, I'm glad they're here. So with regards to the reasons for Russia's invasion for a war, I wish they took the first opportunity to debate us because back then they could have mounted a better case. Now that Russia's offensive is faltering in the east, especially in Siberia, if you've kept up with the news, it's not looking good for the Russians. They got entrapped. Now they're being attracted to hell in the brutal urban fighting. So that really does not vote well for Russia and consequently for tankies who are pro-Russian, they cannot make such a good case for Russian involvement in the Russian invasion of Ukraine. And of course, regardless of what these two might try to tell you, the reasons are still just good old fashioned Russian imperialism. This is what they've always done. This is the bread and butter of the Russian Empire, also the Soviet Union. Because if you look at Russia, like the reason why Russia is so big is because they did the exact same thing they're trying to do currently to Ukraine as in to invade, destroy, murder, deport, subjugate people who live there and forcibly melt them into their empire. Same thing they did in Ukraine, or at least they tried, but oops, Ukraine actually resisted and the Russian army is not so strong as it was due to endemic corruption and demographic issues. So now Russia is on the wrong end of the stick, so to speak. And this might not be an ideal situation for a tankie, but we'll see how they'll try to justify it. Anyway, Destiny? Yeah, I mean, the arguments have remained virtually unchanged since the beginning of the war. Russia doesn't really have any good reason to go after Ukraine. Russia has continued to threaten Ukraine sovereignty in a way that we haven't seen any nation threaten the sovereignty of any other nation in the past 30 years. The idea that the territorial integrity of another country could be threatened by a larger power because of fears of the type of government they'll have or the potential voluntary joining of NATO or the potential voluntary joining of open markets in Europe is just as ridiculous now as it was a few months ago when the war began. We've seen Russia commit to atrocious military strategy, whether we're talking about civilians being murdered in places like Mariupol, or whether we're talking about the, I guess just the overall mayhem or destruction that they've brought in cities that they've been forced to retreat from now. There's, yeah, there's any justification that could revolve around trying to say that Russia should be able to do anything undermines Ukraine sovereignty. That hasn't changed since the beginning of the war. And unfortunately now Russia finds itself in the bad end of a protracted war that it doesn't seem to be able to support. And yeah, we'll, I'm curious to see if we have any new arguments that could possibly justify the failing Russian invasion into Ukraine. Oh yeah. You got it, thank you very much. We'll kick it over to Jackson and infrared, but want to say folks, it's your first time here at Modern Day Debate. We're a neutral channel hosting debates on science, religion and politics. We hope you feel welcome, no matter what walk of life you were from. And we have many more juicy upcoming debates. A controversial one next week, Vosh and Dr. Bogartis debating whether or not trans women are women, you don't want to miss it as well as many other debates. Hit that subscribe button so you don't miss it. And with that, thanks so much Jackson and infrared. The floor is all yours for your openings as well. All right, well, first of all, very happy that Azov something in destiny have joined us for a debate today because last time they bitched out and refused to debate us. And I feel like they probably collected their ideas and their views by now. So it's good that they're here. Before we get into it though, and I hope Azov something can respond to this. You've gone out and you've posted memes of Stefan Bondera, the infamous Nazi in Ukraine. You've been criticized by your own audience for doing this. You said that you defended the Azov battalion because what else is Ukraine supposed to do than to support the Azov Nazis and bring them into their National Guard ranks and allow them to basically slaughter and genocide people in the Donbas for eight years. So hopefully you can address your support for the Azov Nazis and posting Bandera memes online. But as we get into this, I mean, obviously, the war, this special military operation invasion, whatever party wants to call it, began due to Western escalation. We saw the continued threat of NATO accession of Ukraine leading up well into these Linsky administration, even up until the last days prior to this invasion beginning. We saw the West and nations that previously were neutral flooding Ukraine with arms. We've seen over the past six years, we've seen NATO training Ukrainian battalions. We've seen the US training special op Ukrainian forces in the United States. And we also saw that the Ukrainians were planning an offensive and invasion into the Donbas. We know for the past eight years, Putin has tried to secure peace in Ukraine through the Minsk Accords and the Minsk II Accords, both of which were violated by Ukrainian forces. The ceasefire violations were violated, especially in the days leading up to the war. We saw an dramatic increase in ceasefire violations. And though the OSCE does not directly point out who is responsible for these violations, Donetsk officials say that Ukraine was responsible for the vast majority of these violations in the final days of the war. But then again, this isn't nearly as important as the fact that there were documents released. I believe it was on March 8th, which pointed out that Ukraine's National Guard, the fourth operational brigade was planning an invasion into the Joint Forces Operation Zone in the Donbas. They were gonna do a full scale invasion. And in an effort to prevent NATO accession on Russia's border, in an effort to prevent the slaughter of more Ukrainian or of more Donbas civilians in Donetsk and Lugansk with this threat of an invasion, and to prevent the Nazis like the Azov's that you, Azov, something have defended from killing more civilians and spreading their ideology, Russia decided to make a counter move to the eight year war, which was started after a US coup in 2014 in Ukraine by launching the special military operation. Additionally, in regards to this allegation by Adam Soything that we had backed out of our debate, if anyone's interested, we don't actually have to argue about it. You can go on my channel where I provide irrefutable proof that at the very least, Adam Soything was lying that me and Jackson refused to debate him. There's a full, I show them for full DMs with modern day debate and I provide evidence from modern day debates Twitter that says it was actually him that backed out of that. But, you know, let's not dwell too much on that. Just to add to what Jackson said with the kind of broader picture, this notion that what we're witnessing is this time and time old Russian imperialism, the notion that the Soviet Union was imperialist is already questionable, but the Soviet Union doesn't even exist anymore. Although Russia has inherited the Soviet Union as a state, there could be no question of Russian imperialism without an international system of equal sovereign nations. Now, the international system that has resulted from the architects of the Britain Woods system after World War II, I mean, I don't even think the two gentlemen here will try and make the argument that that system has resulted in free and equal sovereignty between nations. Clearly the United States has an exceptional status in that international system and it had sought after the fall of the Soviet Union and the Eastern Bloc to integrate not only the former countries of the Warsaw Pact, but also the former Soviet Union into that international system. And it has been Russia's resistance to being integrated into that international system that has resulted in the Western aggression that led up to the events in Ukraine today. So I think I'll just leave it there for now. You got it. We'll jump into open conversation. Wanna let you know, folks, 100% of today's Super Chats are going to go to the Domestic Violence Action Center. So this is an organization with a great charity watchdog rating, saying that they are indeed using the funds for what they say they are, which is helping abuse, or I should say people who have been abused or people who are coming out of domestic violence situations. And so highly encourage you, hey, send in a Super Chat as you can both ask a question for the Q and A and it's going to a good cause, 100% of it. So with that, thanks very much. Gentlemen, the floor is all yours for open conversation. I wanna remind you, if it gets too unyieldy, if it gets too wild, I do have to mute you. And here we go, three, two, one, go. Just a quick point as we start. I have this email in front of me that I got from James on the 2nd of March. This is with regards to who pitched out a debate. He wrote, hi Adam, I'm bound that Jackson Hinckley and infrared aren't going for it despite my best efforts to persuade them. However, I'm not exaggerating when I say I might have a better idea, Russian fellow named Justice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then we got the Justice debate. So here James on the 2nd of March wrote to me that Hinckley and infrared aren't going for it despite him trying to convince them otherwise, you can ask James about it after the debate. If you want this email, I got this from the modern day in debate. So this is the only way to interpret this is that you guys have backed out. This is on my Discord and also on my YouTube community page if you scroll down. So feel free to check it out for yourself. Otherwise, I can see that this debate is going to be pretty much like you throwing out a bunch of, essentially this info and misrepresentation, et cetera. And just like bad faith, gishgallow gaslighting, the usual, that's Jackson's and mostly infrared just screams a lot. But were you not posting photos of Stefan Bandera? Yes, which was actually a spin on this Russian sort of hysteria about Stefan Bandera. If you know European history, do you know that? Yes, I know it's funny to, it's only funny because you're a bit ignorant on this. Well, your own audience called you out about that. That's just why I brought it up. Some people found it weird, which I fully understand. But the thing to understand here is that, A, that image I interpreted as essentially a play on this Russian version to Stefan Bandera, like, ooh, look, ooh, the Bandera, you know, like that kind of thing. The second thing- I don't, I don't really. In fact, you said that Bandera and you said Azov were far right. Would you be willing to say here live that they are not just far right, but they're Nazis? Can we get that on the record? Some of them are definitely Nazis. Well, hold on, to be clear, on the record right now, the Azov battalion is not the same Azov battalion that it was like pre-2014. The Azov battalion has been properly assumed in the Ukrainian forces. And the idea that the majority of these people, we have an incisible chunk of them are far right or Nazis, doesn't seem to be true. We can put like pictures online. You don't think that the SS- Can I finish my sentence? You don't think that the SS- Do you have any source on that, actually? You don't think that the SS- You don't get some numbers like what percentage of them are Nazis? Let's show, let's show, hold on, let's show. You don't think that the SS wolf's angle symbol on their actual uniforms is a symbol of their ideology that they are Nazis or the black sun logo that is a Nazi symbol? Yep, okay, so my response to this is that when I'm trying to figure out what's happening in terms of foreign affairs, I'm not looking at pictures that people post on Facebook and Twitter. If we're gonna say that there is a, yeah, that's right. So if we're gonna say like there's a significant Nazi or far right, ultra-nationalist problem in Ukraine, what I'd be interested in is that like, are there an elevation of the amount of attacks on people, like anti-Semitic lead? Do we have like crystal not going on? Do we have people that are encouraging a lot of anti-Semitic or hateful behavior towards Jewish people in Ukraine? You do. I don't see that anywhere. There aren't really widespread reports of that. There's those things. Polling data in Ukraine shows that like, they're not anti-Semitic, arguably the least anti-Semitic country in, I think in all of Europe, I don't even think it's Eastern Europe. So yeah, I'm not really as convinced about pictures of people with dumb fucking symbols and shit on their military uniforms. I'm sure there are probably some Nazis in the Ukrainian military. I mean, is there official symbol? Let me just finish. Is there official symbol? You're making it seem like a smaller thing. I'm sure there are, I'm sure there are far right aspects to literally every single military in the world. But if you cared as much about this, why don't you ever talk about like the Wagner group? Why don't you ever talk about any of the far right elements that exist in Russia that literally train foreign fighters that like do operations for far right causes in other countries, like in Sweden? Yeah. The Wagner group doesn't have any official ties to the Russian government, but regardless, I just want to ask- Oh, of course. Are you trying to suggest that it's not possible for there to be neo-Nazis, active neo-Nazis I should add, if there aren't anti-Jewish pogroms going on, because I'll have you know that the biggest victims of Nazi violence during World War II were Slavs and Russian Slavs in particular. So I'm not sure where this idea that Nazis have to engage in anti-Semitic violence. I mean, it's clear they do have anti-Semitic views. That's well documented, but I don't see why that has to be a key criteria. Now, regarding the Wagner group, even if you want to say that the Russian government has these under the cover ties, I mean, that is vastly different than integrating literal neo-Nazi groups into your official military as Ukraine has done for their national guard. I don't really see the comparison. I mean, you could say that Russia's doing some under the rug, shady shit. If you're going to try an argument, there's no evidence of that. But even if that was true, it wouldn't be the same as the way in which Ukraine has literally integrated these people into its official military. Yeah, so I mean, the difference is that like the Wagner group still operates as the arm, as the paramilitary arm of the Russian military. They still- That's the key word though, paramilitary. What is that? They're private mercenaries that work at the behest of the Kremlin. They are directly into that. Wait, are we actually having this debate? Wait, is that the debate we're having right now? That the Wagner group is just some independent operating thing that doesn't have any ties to Russian law? Is that where we're at? Well, you're trying to make a comparison to a- And by the way, we all know it's not just the Azov battalion. Of course, Azov is probably the most, given the most spectacle and attention because it's not just the Azov battalion, and attention because they are so out in the open with regard to the fact that they do have these Nazi symbols as their official logos. But I mean, you look at all these other groups, you look at Trident, you look at the C14, you look at all these groups that are responsible for these mass atrocities. And they are the ideological inheritors of Stefan Bondera who again, Adam something here seems to think is a guy worth making memes about and posting about on his YouTube page. But what I will say is that at the end of the day, the people who started these groups, started these parties, started this mass political movement in Ukraine to carry out the ideological ambitions of Nazi collaborators like Stefan Bondera, they say things like, well, we want to rid non-Ukrainians out of Ukraine. We want to get Russians and Jews out of Ukraine. That was Olja Tanya book. We saw Andrei Paroby or Andrei Belitsky, rather. He was the commander of the Aesop Battalion and still is. He said that he wanted to profess his support. Listen, he wanted to profess his support for a crusade of white nations against Semitic led sub-humans. So when they're killing 14,000 people in the Donbas, do you not think that that is the true actions of Nazis, that is them carrying out their ideological ambitions? No, it's a civil war within the country. You don't see them like, against ethnic Russians. Against people that are being supported by Russia, breaking away from their country. Why are they being supported by Russia? Because Russia is trying to undermine the sovereignty of Ukraine. And they've been trying to do so ever since 2014, when their guy got ousted from the government. For Russia's part, it's simple blood and soil, essentially. I'd like to ask. How's the one side, please? Okay. Quick question for you. So we keep hearing about this massive Nazi problem in Ukraine, right? Of course, side they should need it. But also, guys, don't you find it funny how like your position is held by virtually every neo-Nazi movement in Europe right now? Like in Hungary, there's a literal Nazi party in the parliament right now. Our homeland is called, who are just spreading the same kind of propaganda that you do. They say the exact same thing. Fidesz, Viktor Orbán's party, who is essentially a proto-fascist party. It's also believed the same thing. And every single far-right party in Europe, every single Nazi party in Europe- It is Orbán's party right now, genociding ethnic Russians. Excuse me. There is no genocide in Ukraine. What are we talking about? Well, I just wanted to first of all- Russia is genociding more ethnic Russians right now than anyone else. I think you're wrong about that. That's factoring correct. So they're bombing ethnic Russian areas. Ethnic Russian casualties are mounting in it. What one side has? And ethnic Russian civilian casualties are mounting in the areas that Russia is attacking. So you think that none of those ethnic Russian deaths could have been responsible by the Ukrainian forces like they were over the past eight years? So now we switched to like, don't you think some of them might have been killed by Ukraine? Come on, dude. Look, if- Well, no, you answer the question. I ask you a question. You're making it out to be that all Russian, ethnic Russians killed are a result of Russian airstrikes or something like that. Of course not. Not at all. Okay, well, good. Now we can find a point of agreement. Now, do you think that there are more ethnic Russians? Do you think that there are more ethnic Russians that are killed right now? Compared to the past eight years? Most ethnic Russians in Ukraine are anti-Russian or anti-Russian military and an anti-invasion. Before we get into that, how does that happen? You said that, you said the majority of neo-Nazis are pro-Russia, which isn't true. It's just that the majority- In Europe, absolutely. In European, in European- Absolutely not true. Look at their policies. Look at their policies. White nationalist- The IFD in Germany, alternative to the Deutschland-German. They're not neo-Nazis. The IFD are not neo-Nazis. The IFD has a- That's not the same thing. Right, I think populists- That's not the same thing. A lot of people, almost all populists are pro-Russia. I live in East Germany right now. You probably call Trump a Nazi, too. Yeah. But anyway- Trump is not a Nazi. He's just like a fucking- But I wanted to ask you the question. I think Marjorie Taylor Greene and Bulbert and people like that, I think they're like kind of proto-Nazis. Like, I mean, what I'm saying is they wouldn't- Well, I'm interested in your notion of Nazism when you consider Stepan Bandera not a Nazi, but conservative in America. Stepan Bandera had a complicated history. He was a Nazi collaborator, but back during the- But he wasn't a Nazi. I don't think he was like an avowed Nazi, although- Do you know what he said about Jews? Oh, sure. But here's the thing. So paleo-conservatives in America are not- Wait, hold on. Are you going to let him finish the thing or are you just going to keep like- Fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was just not in awe. I'll say you want to finish. So about Bandera, let's- Yeah, okay. So about Bandera, I think it's very important to note the historical context back in the day. At that point, the Soviet Union was doing something similar to Ukraine that is doing now. And at that point, the Germans, the Nazis, came through from the West. And the Ukrainians, of course, were- Ukrainians were resisting the Soviet invasion. And the Nazis were like, Hey, guys, we kind of hate the Russians too. Like, do you want to like team up or something? And Ukraine was like, yeah, cool. And so of course, and they were anti-Semitic. Of course, the- That's a super historical debate that we can't get into, but I will say- But I have to explain this to you because none of you seem to understand this, okay? So back then, they were of course anti-Semitic and there was like a whole bunch of genocides in Western Ukraine, mostly of Poles and Jews. There was like scorched earth, but just like murdering. In Europe, generally, like the more East you go, the more brutal these programs and purchase get. But the thing is though, unfortunately, this has been the norm for hundreds of years in Europe. Of groups, genociding, other groups and anti-Semitism has been like a constant theme. So Stepan Bandera is horrible he was. And of course, the level of violence was higher since it was far out in the East. Unfortunately, from a European perspective, that was not that special, right? And then later on, Bandera himself got like imprisoned by Nazis and like removed from power, et cetera. It's complicated. Hold on, but this is an outright falsification of history. The idea that- No, it's not. Okay, well, you're gonna let me talk now because I let you do that. But the idea that Bandera as pogroms and which was actually part of the Holocaust, if you don't know, the anti-Jewish violence in Ukraine perpetrated by the Banderas is just another incident of anti-Semitic violence in the history of Europe. That would be true if it wasn't for the fact that the Ukrainian nationalist ideology even before the Nazi invasion was heavily drawing from the inspiration of German fascism and Nazism, as were most of the other extreme ultra-nationalists across Europe at the time who had an anti-Soviet agenda. So what you're saying is a falsification of history. Bandera's anti-Semitism was Hitlerite, was of a Hitlerite character. It was not some traditional conservative European anti-Semitism. And I just find it hilarious that you're doing all these mental gymnastics to try and tell us that a literal person who helped perpetrate the Holocaust alongside of the Nazis is not a Nazi, he's just a collaborator, but American paleo-conservatives are somehow Nazis. I mean, that's quite the stretch, but I wanted to ask you... Can I just ask you a quick question about that and then you can finish anything? I'm just curious, would you consider the USSR a Nazi country? Absolutely not, no. So when the USSR is literally writing up agreements to split Poland in half and join invaded and having non-aggression packs and setting like the stage for like future alliances with Nazi Germany, how do you rationalize that in your mind? I'm so curious. Yeah, it's very clear. The Soviet Union made several overtures to France and Britain and the other Western Allied countries to form a security pact against the Germans. When the Germans kept going east to Czechia, they had their intention to go east to Poland. The Soviets were left with no choice, but to continue to buy time because they were not prepared for a military confrontation with the Nazis. So left with no choice like Bandera was in Ukraine in order to like fend off Soviet... No, Bandera was left with the same thing. Bandera was left with the same thing. A fault in the narrative, bro. Bandera was definitely left with the choice to not actually collaborate with the Nazis in the Holocaust. The USSR had to. The USSR most definitely had to have a non-aggression pact in order to buy up the necessary time to build up its military and industrialized. It wasn't just a non-aggression pact. They invaded Poland with Germany. Split that country in half. No, Germany had told the USSR of its intention to invade Poland. And then the USSR said, okay, we won't go to war with you over this if you don't cross this line. Now, when the Polish government fled Poland in exile to London, the Soviets came to the Eastern Poland to defend the Soviet Union. That is why at the time the Polish government and the British government did not accuse the Soviet Union of invading Poland, and they didn't go to war with the Soviet Union and that they went to war with Germany. And there's a reason for that because the Soviet Union did not invade Poland. The whole pretext of World War II was the invasion of Poland by Germany. Why didn't Britain declare war on the Soviet Union? We've... But did the Polish government flee before after the USSR invaded Haas? Oh, yeah. It was in response to the German invasion Did the Polish government flee before after the USSR invaded? At the same time. By the way, Haas... Do you know... Why would they flee if they're not at war? Shouldn't they be like chill? Well, then why didn't the Allies declare war on the Soviet Union if the Soviet Union was invading Poland? I'm not asking why. I'm just curious how it's just interesting to me that the USSR was basically forming like a long-term alliance or had, in the works, a long-term alliance with Nazi Germany. But you've got like a rationalization for that, but Bandera is like literally evidence of like long-term and a future of Naziism. In Molotov's meetings with the German leaders, he explicitly rejected any long-term alliance and new order for your visa. We don't want to form a new order, a new world order with you guys. We just want our security concerns to be respected. Don't cross this line in Poland. Don't go to Bulgaria. Don't go here. And then it was totally, you know, meant to just defend the Soviet Union not to create this long-term alliance for the... And the USSR... Hold on, just another... I'm sorry. There was the massacre, the Ketten massacre or whatever, where the USSR is executing like tens of thousands of fucking Polish military officers in intelligentsia. You had the... What was the name of the KPD officials, the communists that fled Germany into the USSR, were shipped right back to Germany to be executed. Like, what do you mean they were just like non-aggressive, dude? I'll refer to the historian Grover for who's done a lot of work to show... I don't have him to talk to right now. I just have you, Haas, to talk to. Well, do you think neither of those things happened there? We don't have time to go through the primary sources and evidence for all of those claims. So I'm just gonna tell you that I deny that. Yeah, like, Destiny, you probably think there's a genocide... You probably think there's a genocide in Xinjiang right now, too. So you're not the most reliable source in the world. But what I wanna point out here, what I wanna point out here is that you're making an argument about the Soviet Union protecting their security and whatnot. We saw Stefan Bondera literally work together with Nazi intelligence to form massive SS battalions in Ukraine to band together tens of thousands of Ukrainians to slaughter hundreds of thousands of old Russians... Hold on. The SS isn't bad either. That's just paramilitaries. And you're trying to compare the two. And it's literally insane. You're trying to equate a security pact with literal Nazi genocide of Ukrainians. It's insane. Yeah, but when SS is just paramilitary, that's not bad. You know, you're actually fucking insane. Do you have any proof that the SS was controlled by the general government? It was just like a premise. Say that again. Do you have any proof that the SS was directly controlled by Hitler, you know? You know, there's not a single record of Hitler actually ordering the murder of any Jewish people, right? It was the paramilitary wing. Did I say Hitler? Did I say with... Well, I'm just saying, when you're talking about the SS, these are paramilitaries. And if the Wagner group doesn't count, I don't know why the SS would come here. I say it was a private intelligence. Because we do have evidence that he was meeting with Nazi intelligence officials to form these battalions. Oh, the flaws in the narrative. I like it. That's exactly what I said. You tried to manipulate my words. Listen, at the end of the day, I do agree with you, though. I do agree with you, though. Hold on, one second. He's of something. Jackson, one second. He's of something. I do agree with you. I do agree with you. One second. You said... I want to go from Adam to an infrared after. So I want to correct you on something. It wasn't the invasion of Poland. It was the special neutral operation into Poland, okay? Let's keep it straight, guys, okay? Yeah, that's an argument to void of substance. It is very shit. Oh, it's not. Nice. It was very clear that the invasion of Poland started World War II and the Soviet Union was not considered a member of the Axis powers at that time, and Britain did not declare war on the Soviet Union. Nor did the Polish government in exile blame the Soviet Union for any invasion. Now, second of all, I wanted to ask you this question about a more contemporary event. You wanted to know about these acts of neo-Nazi violence that were, as Destiny put it, just part of the war. Was the Odessa massacre just part of the war? The Odessa massacre was an incident where a pro-Russian mob met a pro-Ukrainian mob, and the pro-Ukrainian mob turned out to be about three times larger than the pro-Russian mob, and they actually pushed the pro-Russians into this building. I don't know, the trade unions have something that, and they pushed them into this building, and it's blurry what happened next, but Molotovs and Stoes started flying. It's not blurry. The International Criminal Court has already done a preliminary examination on this. The building got fired. I was gonna say real quick, international courts have also ruled there's not a genocide happening in Donbass, so you can't pick and choose when you wanna sign with international courts. Sorry, Adam, keep going. Oh, yeah, sure. So at that point, it was like, most people died, I think, of the stampede and the smoke, because the building was actually set on fire, and then afterwards, that was pretty much the end of the pro-Russian protest. You know, that's actually, a few months later, there was like a sort of terror bombing of the Ukrainian authorities, like civilians, a couple of them died, but that was pretty much it at the end. But the next calamity came when Russia started launching like cruise missiles at like residential neighborhoods, as in now. But that was basically the gist of the Odessa massacre, which wasn't really a massacre. It was two mobs meeting with like, Stoes and Molotovs and what like. Yeah, I mean. As during the Civil War, it's sometimes. That's a great attempt to whitewash a horrific act of neo-Nazis. I know, I mean, this is what happened. But we have countless other events. Hold on, but we have other countless instances of violence at the time. There was the crucifixion of Russians. There was the disappearance of several. That's a fake though, that the crucifixion didn't really happen though. Well, I saw it on video. So I don't know how it could be fake. And then there's the several Russian journalists who I don't know, just disappeared. Somehow, I mean, there was a clear campaign of intimidation, terror and violence. Oh, like now in Russia, right? Russian forces. Like now when anti-war journalists are being disappeared, then like news organization being shuttered. We're talking about Ukraine right now. We're not talking about Russia right now. That's kind of like a what aboutism. The point is that there's a campaign of terror, intimidation and violence against people who represent the opinion of the Russian speaking population in Eastern Ukraine. You said earlier that the Russian speaking population in Ukraine is anti-Russian. Well, how would you even know that if they're representatives were the victims of a systemic campaign of terrorism and violence and intimidation? Like who? Like the various Russian journalists. I can't name them on the top of my head. Like who? What's a single like we hear when journalists are killed during these conflicts? It's a really big deal. We hear about in Israel. It happened recently. The IDF murdered or murdered or killed a journalist during, they say it was accidental fire, whatever. Are you just so I can understand? Are you implying that like Ukraine is murdering a bunch of Russian journalists, but we just haven't heard about it at all? Well, there are several missing. Journalists answer that question instead of like, they were literally shelling Russian journalists in Donetsk this week. Oh, actually, Russians actually killed. I think a Reuters journalist or a French journalist, that he died of like artillery shrapnel. And what's your evidence that what's your evidence that the French journalist was killed by Russians because he was actually in Donetsk and French President Emmanuel Macron didn't even say that he was killed by Russian. So he left it. Because he was on the Ukrainian side, though, like unless Ukrainians shelled their own positions, then I'm sure shelling their own positions. Feel free to feel free to look it up. Sure, they have positions in the city center of Donetsk. Most of it didn't happen. Listen, Adam, Adam, Adam, Adam, Adam, Adam, Adam, Adam, Adam, in the city center, looking up, Adam. You made the claim that it was just a bunch of random people that stormed the Odessa trade union house on that May 2nd when they slaughtered dozens and dozens of people. You leave out the part that it was Andre Powerby who is in Odessa meeting with many of the individuals who were responsible for the violent acts that took place there that day, in the days leading up to that trade union home massacre. And this was a guy who was the leader of the society to erect a Stefon-Bondara monument. This was clearly an act carried out again with the same intent of all these Nazis to try and slaughter a popular resistance movement that was peaceful. It was just people sitting out in front of a trade union house to this coup government that was installed by the US. Yeah, so I found the article, you were lying. They were not in Donetsk. They were on the way to Severodonetsk, so they were on Ukrainian territory. And yes, where were they coming from? Where were they coming from? They're driver. Where were they coming from? Let me know. Wait, hold on. Are we talking about in March when journalists were on the way to Kiev? No, no, no, no. Okay, because that was one time where those journalists, I think we watched videos of that, where they were ambushed by a Russian recon squad. There was a video of that where you can see them getting shot at. That's all we were talking about. Okay, that's good. But that was just one issue of Russian shooting at journalists like that. Adam, do you deny that it was a government to organize events on May 2nd that resulted in dozens of people who were anti-government who were killed? Is it Odessa right now? Like, are we talking about Odessa? Okay, okay. It wasn't a government organized thing. The government didn't even exist, basically, at that point where it didn't have much power over. If the Ukrainian government had power to organize protests just like this in cities far away from Kiev, like six, eight hours of driving, then the events in Ukraine would have turned out very differently. This was a sort of... Andriy Paroby wasn't the leader of a mass political movement that then went on to become the government of Ukraine in 2014. Where is Andriy Paroby's political party now? So what, or I can just... He was the chair of the Verkhovna Rada for five years. Good, and how come Ukrainian far-right parties have one seat out of 450 now? Because Zelensky's regime replaced them. But at the end of the day... Zelensky's regime replaced them. Wait, do they not have elections? Or what do you mean by that? Can you explain that? Zelensky is a centrist, Russian-native-speaker Jewish, centrist liberal, like, you know... I'll agree with you. I'll agree with you there. I think Zelensky's campaign messaging was great. He wanted peace. He didn't want the persecution and the discrimination of ethnic Russians in Ukraine. But clearly he's lost that battle and he's now effectively controlled by these same forces that held power from 2014 to 2019, like Andriy Paroby. Do you have a source on that? Do you have any source citations? We literally have videos of Zelensky going bravely, I think, to the front lines with the Azov commanders in the Donbas meeting with them, asking them to put down their arms and to talk about this. And they say, we'll talk with you, but we're not gonna stop fighting because that's what he was asking them to do. They didn't wanna stop fighting and there's clear video evidence released by the Ukrainian Defense Ministry about all of this. So it would be, I think, easier to disarm neo-Nazis in Ukraine and to sort of stem the tide of this neo-Nazis resurgence, which is, I guess, it's happening according to you. It would be... If you're concerned about this... Wait, do you deny that that's happening? One second, if you are concerned about the resurgence of extremism in certain places, then I think we should agree that the best solution for it is for larger countries to stop fucking with the smaller country in which this resurgence is happening. Why does ISIS exist, for example? Well, US interventionism, right? The US went in guns blazing and destabilized the region. And then, whoops, this caused the surge of extremism. And in Ukraine, this didn't actually cause a surge though. That's the fact. I agree with you, I agree with you. Yes, so in your framework, in your framework. Larger countries should stop fucking with smaller countries, meaning the US should stop, arming the Nazis in Ukraine. I agree with you. As long as Russia leaves Ukraine, yeah, and gives them back everything, including Crimea. Isn't that what they were trying to get done in the Minsk Accords? No. No. They were trying to give back Crimea. They were trying to stop the Ukrainian Nazis from slaughtering people in the Donbass with the US. No, they were trying to cause a ceasefire to happen in an area where they were backing a civil war, where they've already broken off territory from a sovereign country in a civil war. I agree with you. You're manipulating the words into this pro-Ukraine propaganda mindset. No, no, it's called reality. What is it called? OK, so who is this civil war between? Was it not between Nazis and rebels in the Donbass? No, right now the civil war is backed by the Russian military against the Ukrainian military. That's what the war is right now. What about the past eight years? Since 2014, Russia has had official military people. It's not even a secret on the ground in the Donbass. Yeah, of course. They haven't had them there the entire time. Yes, of course, they have. What do you mean? That's incorrect. When you say not the entire time, then are you admitting that they were there most of the time? Or what are you talking about? No, they definitely were there at different periods throughout the eight years, but they weren't there the entire time or the majority of the time. They have been there the majority of the time. What do you think about the civilian airliner? They got like... Look at the International Criminal Court's preliminary examination. That's incorrect. They do highlight the different periods in which Russians went to the Joint Operations Zone as they refer to it. But it was only a few times. Now, were they providing artillery and heavy artillery at different times to the rebels there? Yeah, but they weren't there the entire time. They weren't just providing military... Like the platforms that these people were using were sophisticated platforms to shoot down things, like Malaysian Airlines Flight 17. These were platforms that couldn't be operated by random people with no idea. And the Ukrainians had a heavy artillery. And the Ukrainians are fighting a civil war in their country. I would expect them to use heavy artillery to secure their country. That doesn't justify... I don't think it is their country. In 2014, the people in Donetsk and Lugans voted overwhelmingly to become independent states. That's not how that works. You can't just vote away to break away from a country. Do you think the European Union will be justified in invading Scotland and holding them hostage because they wanted to stay in the EU and the United Kingdom voted to leave? The founding of the European Union. No, no, no, wait. I want Jackson to answer that. Do you think that if the European Union put together an army and invaded Scotland, would they be able to hold on to that because they voted to stay in the European Union and the rest of the United Kingdom voted to leave? Do you think that'd be justified? Well, you're making a false comparison here. At the end of the day, the people of Donetsk and Lugansk were facing not just harassment, not just discrimination and torture, but also death. The Russians are in the zone. Hold on. Hold on. You're not answering the question. I'll ask again. Yes, I am. If the European Union... I mean, answer the question. I wasn't done answering. You interrupted me. Dude, this is like debating Flentes. Holy shit. So let's just put this in perspective. If Donald Trump were president and he started mobilizing U.S. military personnel to slaughter people in Los Angeles County, and Los Angeles County decided that they wanted to vote to break away from the United States and form their own sovereign independent state, then it wouldn't just be that they randomly voted. Something caused that to happen. And at the end of the day, it would have been the violence that ensued from whichever government in power and that government in Ukraine was installed by a U.S. backed coup. And it was an illegal impeachment that didn't actually get enough votes to be on a Kovach. So when do you think the civil war in the Donbass started? It started to pick up speed after the coup took place. But when did it start? So it started after Russia invaded and stole Crimea. That's not an accurate answer. And then after... No. It started after the coup of Viktor Yanukovych. So it started after Russia invaded and stole Crimea. And then it started after Russia was mobilizing troops in the Donbass to begin that war. What happened before Crimea? There was an asking of a prior leader who started shooting at civilians with police officers. I mean, what do you mean? Just for the purposes. We already had this debate. I wrecked you in this debate. You didn't wreck anything. All you can point to is a phone call between two ambassadors saying they prefer one leader to another, and then you think that that's evidence of the coup being changed. For the purposes of clarification, Ukraine is a very new state, even historically. It doesn't matter that it's new. Ukraine was recognized in 1991 by every other sovereign country in the world. That state could have started existing in 2010. I'd like to finish my point. Go ahead, Inpr. Yeah. So the founding of Ukraine, which is an extremely new state, the idea of this unified territory being encompassed by one sovereign state, that was founded on the premise that everyone was going to have equal representation, whether they're Russian speaking or Ukraine speaking, right in the West. And it just so happens that the person who was ousted, as you mentioned, was overwhelmingly the representative of the Russian speakers within Eastern Ukraine. So after that coup, which ousted the person that represented their stake in Ukrainian sovereignty, I don't see how Ukraine can continue to lay claim to this territory. Because they held elections after he was ousted. But how was he ousted? Was it illegal? Those elections were considered legitimate. Wait, wait, wait. Those elections aren't considered illegitimate. Not like the ones that happened in Crimea after Russia invaded. That's why it wasn't illegal. Was it? Well, he didn't get impeached. He ran away because he knew he was probably having his police officers murdering civilians in the street. Was it illegal impeachment? No, but they held legal elections afterwards. Did he leave the country before that took place? Yep. No, where did he go to? He ran to Russia. No, he didn't. Where did he go to? He went to Kharkiv. First, from Kharkiv, he went to Russia. Details. He went to Kharkiv and then they had the right when he left for Kharkiv, first of all, they started to rain hellfire down with snipers on what they thought was his his group of cars that was leaving the city. And then they stormed his own personal home and government buildings. Do you not think that that's a story that's story considering the fact that he had showing up in residence in just one country and you admit that it was not a legal impeachment? Do you think do you think that a coup usually is democratic elections that occur afterwards? Is that a coup to you? I'm just curious. Yeah, it can. It definitely can. OK, so a coup can be. There is a bunch of protest and rioting. Yes, because the leader flees from his country, which he did. And then afterwards they hold democratic elections and that's a coup. Let's not let's not pretend that him fleeing was the pretext for choosing a new leader. There was sniper fire against him as he was trying to supposedly leave. All right, as he was trying to leave to correct myself, there was a raiding as Jackson put it of his office. So there was clearly an intent to oust Yana Kovic before he left. Now, Yana Kovic is the guy that the people of Eastern Ukraine voted for. They're not going to recognize any. That would be like Trump deciding that he's not going to accept the elections. And he's going to hold on. But literally, but literally Putin came out and said he would accept the elections of the Ukraine presidential election after he left. People of Eastern Ukraine weren't. They're not the puppets of Putin. They disagreed. They didn't accept those elections because they voted for Yana Kovic. In their view, if we're going to vote for someone and they're just going to decide that they're going to be able to coo them, like, why should you didn't just get cooed? He fled. Well, there was a pretend that's that's actually correct. The Verkhovna Rada said that he was no longer president. They declared him no longer president and installed an interim president prior to the interim president was the leader of the majority party. It's not. Sorry, I'll stop. Oh, I was in the middle of information. Go ahead. Go ahead, Jack. The Verkhovna Rada had already placed an interim president in his place while Victor Yanukovych was still in Karkov, by the way, and you admit that they were 10 votes short of actually legally impeaching him. Therefore, this was an illegal seizure of power. The interim president that was installed. Who was this guy that was installed? Let me pull up his name. It was before Poroshenko. It was it was the leader of the opposition party. It wasn't just a random guy. It was already somebody that was like massively popular in their electoral system. It wasn't just a popular among portions of Western Ukraine. He was not representative of. I'm just saying, when you say installed a new leader, you make it sound like they picked a random dude. He was he was installed because, again, they were 10 votes short of impeaching. They were 10 votes just before, but after the people started getting shot in the streets, I'm pretty sure that, like, literally everybody but six people voted for the impeachment afterwards. I think Jackson. I want to give Jackson maybe 30 seconds or so uninterrupted. And then promise we'll come back to the next person. I mean, I didn't have a lot to say other than I'm still looking up the name of this guy that was before Poroshenko, if you want me to. I'll also say that the we discussed this destiny last time and you kind of made a fool of yourself, but most independent experts that are investigating what took place in the Euro Maidon Square protest recognized that it was Euro Maidon controlled snipers, specifically Georgian snipers that were responsible for the deaths in the Euro Maidon Square. The Ukrainian security personnel thought that it was it was Euro Maidon forces that were responsible for this. And everyone, regardless, does agree that the snipers were firing from Euro Maidon controlled buildings. That is one thing that everyone does agree on. Jackson, actually real quickly, I think you either didn't know or you lied about the timeline of Yanukovych's escape. Victor Yanukovych left Kiev on the 21st of February and then turned up in Moscow and turned up in Moscow on the 26th of February, 2014. Now the first year, it's a new government was formed a day after on the 27th of February. And at that point. When did they declare that he was no longer president because that's what I was pointing out here? Oh, that's I think that's at this point is irrelevant. If we want to go back to April. That's extremely irrelevant. If he's still, hey, if he's still in Ukraine. If he's still in Ukraine. I do want to finish right back to you. And then just when you're from maybe and sure, I just want to add this. And if you want to go by popular vote, then in April, 2014, according to a Razumkov center, Paul, only 4.9 percent of the Ukrainians would have wanted to see Yanukovych return to the presidency. So I guess that's that does it. Right, popular. OK, OK. First of all, Destiny, his name was Aleksandr Tuchnov. Tuchnov, I don't know. I don't know. Second of all, yes, it does matter if if Victor Yanukovych is still in Ukraine, specifically in Kharkiv, the second biggest city at the time in Ukraine. If they are declaring him no longer president, it doesn't matter when they set up the new government. But if they're declaring him no longer president, they were 10 votes short of getting a legal impeachment. Yes, that does matter because they are illegally forcing him out of power. So are you like, are you like something like centrally liberal now, like the law, you know, that we can't have an evolution? Yeah, I think the constitutional law in Ukraine is pretty important when you're talking about the illegal seizure of power. Apparently you don't think so. In that case, we will never have a glorious socialist revolution because that's not it can just like be voted. Why? Why? Why are you to be clear? So Ukrainian members of parliament voted to oust Yanukovych on the 25th of May. They were 10 votes short of achieving an impeachment. There was an impeachment vote. OK, well, all I've seen is that they voted him out. So are you saying that that's not true or last time when Dylan Burns tried to argue that he was legally impeached and then we had to go to the vote tally and show that they're 10 votes short of getting three quarters approval of a legal impeachment. Was this before police officers were firing on civilians or do you think that the allegations because I see here that the vote to remove Victor Yanukovych from the post of president of Ukraine was passed by 328 members of parliament. So such ballots passed by what is called constitutional majority are binding and enter into forced media effect. So according to Ukrainian law, they were 10 short of the necessary requirement to give. Was this before police were being were I want to ask you that I want to ask you that question. Do you think that an allegation of police firing on civilians is video of police firing on civilians that is that grounds for the dissolution of the form of a country sovereignty, which is their constitutional law? I don't think there's a way to president. Is life fire has been used against protesters in several countries across the country, not not not discounting the United States. Does that mean that the law and the constitutional law should be suspended? But if the people if the people of Ukraine disagreed with what was happening, I would have expected that to be reflected in some boat. I'm not understanding the people of Ukraine were divided and Yanukovych represented the people in the east based on the poll that Adam just gave me and votes on. But and based on the MP's vote to oust Yanukovych, it doesn't sound like they're divided at all. Why do you keep bringing this up in 10? Four point eight percent wanted wanted Yanukovych to remain in power. So do that doesn't matter. What are you getting a lot of the land is that you need three hundred and thirty eight votes to get a legal impeachment. That's three quarters of the Verkhovna Rada. They only had three hundred and twenty eight, even with all the threat of violence, U.S. pressure, London's pressure, U.S. pressure and vote short of actually impeaching him while he was still in the country. And they declared that he was no longer president. You understand how that's a problem, right? OK, so this is my time. I'm understanding. Tell me if you agree with this. So there was a vote initially that you're talking about that failed by 10 members of parliament, right? Then the police, then the police does happened. The shooting of the protest and everything happened. Then there was another vote on February 22nd. And then afterwards Yanukovych fled. And then on May 25th, there was an election. That wasn't the second impeachment vote. But I believe on February 22nd, they voted to oust him. No, February 27th, 22nd. 20, I'll link this or maybe you can just say this is a fake vote. OK, that on the 22nd, that's incorrect. February, in fact, it was February 23rd in which they took the impeachment vote, according to what I have here. Maybe like me what you have, because what I have here is a BBC article on the 22nd, saying Ukrainian MPs vote to oust President Yanukovych. So that was probably, I mean, it's a BBC article. That's probably them announcing that they were about to take this vote. And then, yeah, on February 23rd, they took the vote and they were 10 votes short. Can you link me that? Show me that. OK, so articles can be updated. I don't know if you know that, but the article is not updated. OK, well, then Jackson's explanation is probably the most. Destiny, I think I think we have a problem. I think I heard BBC is run by George Shorosh. Jackson, I still mention him a lot. That's so it might be suspicious. Oh, yeah, like if I if I were you, I wouldn't talk like, didn't you debate like the destiny, like when you teamed up with Nick Fuentes, I like it, you know, Nancy. Again, you make bringing up all these insubstantial comments and arguments as to the actual debate we're having. I don't know why you pivot to something completely irrelevant. Maybe it's because you're losing. If we if we want to and even if we want to move forward in this conversation, even if theoretically we were to grant every single thing that's being said, that there was like an illegal vote and that this was like a coup or whatever. This is a bad thing. None of this gives Russia the right to invade the country, right? Even I wouldn't grant all of that. But even if I did grant all of that, it doesn't get I agree that alone. Destiny, I just sent it to you. It's resolution of the Verkhov Narada of February 23rd, 2014, 10 votes short of getting a legal impeachment. So I was right. Well, link me the article. I think you were wrong. Let me link me. You're in chat. What you're talking about. I just sent it to you on Twitter DM. So I'm on my Twitter. Just send it on Zoom. You don't have Twitter? I don't feel like opening my fucking Twitter. Just send it on Zoom. We're all chatting again on my on my PC. I just did it for you on my laptop. Are you are you incapable of using Twitter? Yeah, I am. I think it's for us is reading my DM. So I don't have a platform. OK. Yeah, I mean, I don't think that that alone would justify a Russian invasion, but I agree. We'd have to do some serious revisions about the events that led to that to make it seem like that was that's even their justification. But just for the record, I was right and you were wrong. So you can apologize for being wrong about that. Yeah, sure. Any time you want. So going through the article. Yeah, I mean, if they were even if there were 10 votes short, I mean, that's how revolutions work. That's how regime changes work. What are you talking about? He was still in the country. This was a violent seizure of power. He fled. And they didn't get enough votes to impeach him. So you're the whole the the the argument you're making is like, well, you know, it's OK because there were some people who wanted this, despite the fact that the constitutional three quarters majority was not met. That's like if you were to say like, oh, well, yeah, there's a bunch of people in the United States who don't like Joe Biden. So therefore, we should just illegal the power. OK, let me just let me just read. Let's just read. This is the source that this is just just one thing. Adam saying something. He's saying something interesting. Let's just read this because this is a drags on me. OK, well, let me just I just want to respond really quickly to what Adam said. You're saying that it was a revolution and we can just suspend the law. Well, I think the people in the Donbas would say the same thing when they decided to declare independent republics. That was their revolution. And you're saying 95 percent of people if polls constituted grounds for a legal order, I mean, then we would we wouldn't even have elections. We would just take polls. Obviously, yes, those those elections were made under Russian gunpoint. So that's a way different situation. I don't have any. So are you trying to say that the people of Donetsk and Lugans are not overwhelmingly in favor of when the when in Donetsk and Lugansk. There were more pro-Russian sentiment, ironically, because of the Russian propagandizing for that that went on. There was a rider being brainwashed. It's one second, one second, one second, just one second. So, yes. So this is a very complicated composition. Interesting nonetheless, I don't know. I don't know if you want to get into it, though, lots of new ones. But the thing is Russia has been actively propagandizing in the south and east of Ukraine, the Russian-speaking parts through their media empire, like imagine like a 24-7 Newsmax. Oh, yeah, I understand. It's just funny you want to go down the argument of propaganda when I mean, the world's media is more or less concentrated to the United in the Anglo sphere. And, you know, obviously, the United States dominates as far as soft power media is concerned. So if you want to talk about people being brainwashed by media, I mean, what were what kind of ideas were inspiring the people at the Maidan? As bad as as bad as as bad as US media can be, the Russian Russian media and Russia propagandizing is an entire different beast. Don't worry about it. Yeah, but that's like your opinion. That's like you know, no, no, no. Someone could say the same thing about the United States. So I would say Russian state media is like Fox News on crack, right, with some imperialist agenda. Like it's like a nonstop. But the difference is that Russian media hasn't led to the wholesale destruction of places like Iraq, Libya and the Middle East. It led to the destruction of now the Russian speaking parts of Ukraine. So I don't know what you're talking about. It seems like that this reaction is reactionary. This reactionary state destruction was all because by the Ukrainian paramilitaries and military. Oh, sure. Sure. The Ukrainians, the Ukrainians destroyed Mariupol just for fun, right? And like all these cities, like the pictures of the civilians. You know, I didn't think this. The civilians did not say that. That is not. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can I can I read what Jackson like? Your polls are reliable. Destiny. Destiny. Do you want to talk about this, the evidence I put forward that there was a vote on February 20, 2014 to confirm. Wait, can I just read what you sent me? Why are you so scared of me reading what you sent me? Of the Vrkhod in the Rada? Destiny, destiny is good. I don't understand of getting an impeachment. I don't understand. Can I just read what you sent me or are you going to interrupt me? Is that OK? This is what you sent me. So I should be able to read it. Yes. I ask you a question and you interrupt me as if I'm the one to interrupt. Oh, my God, dude, it's like unbelievable. And I mean this in the most like sincere way possible. I think you might just do it. I swear. Don't do it. OK, I hope you find help. OK, so linking what Jackson linked me, which was a Wikipedia article, the Ukrainian Revolution of February 2014 took place after a series of violent events towards protests in the capital of Kiev that culminated with the flight and subsequent then president of Ukraine, Viktor Yanukovych, who was then removed from the office. There were no articles of impeachment against Yanukovych. The Verkhovna Rada Committee voted on February 22nd, 2014. MPs voted to remove Viktor Yanukovych from the post of president of Ukraine on the grounds that he was unable to fulfill his duties and to hold early presidential elections on May 25th. The vote came an hour after Yanukovych said in a televised address that he would not resign. He subsequently declared himself to still be the legitimate head of the Ukrainian state elected in a free vote by Ukrainian citizens. The action did not follow the impeachment process as specified by the Constitution of Ukraine, which would have required a whole like official putting forth like impeachment charges and everything. But there was a vote that they held to oust him as president because in order for the government to continue functioning, they needed to do so because he had abandoned his post. So is that an unconstitutional vote or is that a constant? I guess, but it's all I mean, he left. So to quote your thing, instead, the Verkhovna Rada declared that Yanukovych, quote, withdrew from his duties in an unconstitutional matter, unquote, and cited, quote, circumstances of extreme urgency, unquote, as the reason for early elections. Destiny, he was still in Karkov when they took this vote. And the vote says, quote, to confer the powers of the president of Ukraine on chairman of the Verkhovna Rada, which was Torchnail Alexander, whatever his name is. And this is literally is Karkov, where the where the government is ran. He's a power. And as you put it in Alistair and Victor Yanukovych, there were 10 votes short of any constitutional requirement to actually move through with this ouster. To move to do the impeachment, they weren't able to get the votes for it. But to actually oust him to make sure the government continued to function. It seems like they voted almost unanimously to do so. But that was not a power, though. He's still in the country. There's no reason for there to be an ouster. Well, the reason they cited was because the guy fled from government and there was no way to get is there was no way to run the government. Destiny, I was really bad at math in high school, but I'm pretty sure. Wait, do you acknowledge that he left the government? Do you acknowledge that he left the government? Do you acknowledge that he left the government? Do you acknowledge that he left the government? I think so, because I think so. Do you acknowledge that he fled that he left like he left the government? Just to be sure. The vote took place while he was in Karkov. But yeah, he did. Is Karkov where you're supposed to be to be the head of the state? Is that where you're supposed to be? To answer the question, after snipers ran down a hellfire on his band of cars that after he ordered police to assassinate protesters, there was a fight about a Persian into his office and in his actual primary residence. So yeah, after that all took place, he went to Russia, but he was still in Karkov. So actually, the argument here is that if a head of state is evacuating the capital because of a threat of violence, that is not the same stepping down from government. If there I agree with that and they didn't follow their impeachment process, but they did vote three hundred twenty eight to zero to remove him from his post. When they were not enough short of removing Ukraine. I actually have one important thing to add at that point. After the firings, et cetera, I think I believe the reason why they didn't have the constitutional majority is because Yanukovych's party kind of just fled also and disbanded and they basically all went to Russia. So I think that was the reason why they they didn't have the majority, even though they voted three to eight to zero, basically. But you just called it a revolution and you just said the law. Yeah, it was. Fuck yeah, you agree that it was not very it was not following the procedures of the form of Ukraine's sovereignty enshrined in its constitution. It was following it. It was still a revolution. Those things are not exclusive. They definitely are incompatible. If you're if it's going to be a revolution, they're going to overthrow the prior form of the legal order and the sovereign order. So they did their constitutional requirement. It was not enough for the legal order wasn't wasn't really overthrown like the same legal system. So was the constitutional requirement met or was it not met? It seems like the constitutional requirement for impeachment wasn't met. But the reasons why were extraordinary. It seems like it's not covered by the legal. But the Ukraine's legal order does not allow. Can we can we like user? Can we can we actually use our brains a little bit? Or is it really going to be this retirement? I would like to use like if we if we look at if we look at this, if we look at this, if you want to after after the president, sorry, but it would be the violence. OK, after my 30 seconds and they can respond. So after he fled, they didn't go through formal impeachment charges because the country was literally in fucking chaos. They didn't want to run the courts and run the thing to figure out like so they had a vote in their parliament to see what they should do. Did he abandon his post? When they took that vote, the Rada voted 328 to zero to remove him from the government so that the government could continue to function so that the country wouldn't fall into chaos after they voted to oust him. They held democratic elections and followed their democratic process afterwards. That seems to have enough. You want to call that like an illegal coup or seizure of power? That's fine. You can do that. But don't pretend that he was just like kicked out of the government and installed a new leader, whatever. That's not what happened. That is exactly what happened. You can't have democratic elections to replace a president if you haven't a legal ouster of said president. It's exactly when you consider that the entire pretext of him leaving the capital was criminal and illegal mass violence being conducted by the citizens by the people living in Kiev who were not acting as the representatives of the entire people of Ukraine. So if that's the pretext for him leaving in the first place, of course, it would not be legal according to any democratic constitution. Why did he leave the country? Because of the threats of violence he was facing. Why didn't Zelensky leave the country? Zelensky is well protected wherever he is. Zelensky is what you told me on this platform. I think a month ago that Russia was going to control Kiev in literally three days. You're telling me that Zelensky is well protected by the Russian military invading his country, but you're telling me that Yanukovych was under massive threat because of some riots? Not only riots, but various sniper fire. He didn't have the Yanukovych did not have the Ukrainian security apparatus. The whole Bekirut or whatever police force was still protecting him. Of course, what do you mean? Now, you understand that those police forces were being sniped from the Euromaidan controlled buildings in Euromaidan Square. So they were literally killing police officers. It was. Is there any actual evidence of sniper fire? Is that a real thing? Can you show me that sniper fire on police officers by protesters? Like what do you mean is there evidence of sniper fire? You're the one who the entire time throughout this debate, you've been saying that there was sniper fire on protesters. No, what I said was that what I said was that was that before? No, no. OK, well, I'm glad we have video evidence. The video evidence. So what if you rewind and what you hear me say is that police officers fired on protesters? We've got video evidence of it. I didn't say the rap god. Stop talking. So you've been saying throughout this entire debate that was it before or was it after the sniper fire began to rain down on the protesters? I don't know how many times you've said this. Never like a broken record. And now you're saying that there wasn't sniper fire and you want proof of sniper fire. I said that the police fight. Do you want to bet like 10 bucks on it? If I said there was sniper fire from police and protesters, or I just said police fired on protesters. You said sniper fire. I said police fired on protesters. You said sniper fire. Do you want to bet on it? You want to bet 10 bucks? Sure, I'll bet 10 bucks. OK, well, I'll pay you $10 afterwards. If I did say it, I misspoke. And what I've said a million times is that police officers fired on protesters. They absolutely did. There's video evidence looked at by third party. You can go and watch it right now. Georgian police officers that were controlled by the Euro Maidan protesters. Yeah, no, they were literally the yellow, whatever, wearing police officers. You can see them in their police officer protective position. That's a convincing argument. Yellow wearing police officers. But what I can tell you is that Georgian police officers have actually admitted to this in testimonies. They you're just lying. This is I can't. I can't engage with them. If you want, you can literally like you can Google New York Times police shooting Ukraine reconstruction. And you can literally watch videos put together by NDP people that model the city thousands of hours of cell phone video footage and put together like you can see directly police shooting from areas into protest areas. You can see them shooting and killing protesters. It's like it's like. So it was like last time. Last time, the last story was that it was that the snipers were Polish. Now they're Georgian. I'm glad like they just like, I guess, change with the wind. But no, like what we disagree with is that protesters rain or like a battalion of members or whatever or right sector members were sniping police. There were firefights, but the massive sniping of protesters happened by the police. There's video evidence. That's incorrect. In fact, there was a forensic ballistic examination conducted. You can go and listen. Add a bell in a full state. Hold on. Wait, let him finish. Let Jackson finish. I've heard that. So there was a forensic ballistic examination which showed that the bullet samples found in protesters and police alike in police databases did not match up to the assault rifles that the Burkut Kalishnikov was using. In addition to that, we also have several former members of the Georgian military who testified that they and other groups of made on snipers in the hotel, Ukraine and the music conservatory were ordered by specific made on leaders and ex Georgian leaders to fire on police and protesters and that they witnessed the massacre. The idea that they're so just I just want to be clear on this. So you're telling me that you don't believe police officers ever fired and killed up protesters. Now you're now you're giving me like you're an absolute statement. Maybe I don't know. But what I do know is that the desk that we saw in the Euro Maidon square on that bloody day where there was like several dozen people were killed, were killed by snipers at the control of the Euro Maidon protesters and organizers. OK, so when I tell you that like the the there, what is it? The Beirut? There's also where there's been a move past the evidence and act like that didn't happen. Who got it? I don't know if you want to show me ballistic evidence. You feel free to like me that as well. OK, the idea is we're going to bring Olga Bulga up in this debate. The I don't know. I think ballistic evidence is kind of important. I don't know. Maybe the Berkut Berkut, those police officers. Yeah, they were ordered by Yanukovych to fire on protesters and they did. We have we have video evidence of why did the bullets not match up with their assault rifles? I don't know what bullets match up with their assault rifles mean. If you get it, if you get an actual bullet and you get an assault rifle, you can look at the striations of the round. If I don't know if that type of forensic analysis is done, but you can laugh what you want. But like we can watch the videos. Oh, it's incredible. Like it was 20. Oh, we heard this from somewhere. But the year is 2014. Year is 2014. We've got video footage of fucking everything that happens. They did a full reconstruction like of everything you can measure when the bullet leaves. You can hear the sounds across kind of someone. And you can see who's getting shot by who. It's not a mystery. Hinkle, can you can you link that to us? Can you link that? Yes, yes, you did ask for that. Sure. And if anybody's bored, here's this in the Zoom chat. You're going to watch it later. You can literally watch the videos of people getting killed. You can see from multiple cell phone angles where the shots are coming from. We've got CCTV footage of the police officers behind their barricades shooting directly into protest. You can see from like four different angles the bullet going to the protest or killing them. You can measure the sound waves off of every single fucking cell that's recording it. It's not a mystery. Like, and then I mean, while on your end, you've got like Olga Bulga saying she does forensic investigation and prove that it's all fake. Like, oh, I see what's contradictory. There is no contradictory evidence. Sorry, go ahead. I see what it's doing now. That is like a paywall article. So we cannot check immediately. It's not a paywall article. Yes, it is. For me, for me, there's like a paywall. I didn't even send it to you. How do you have a paywall chart? That's that's the one that I sent. Oh, sorry, sorry. OK, sorry, sorry. But yeah, it was destiny. Sorry, I pay. Well, no worries. So, Hinkle, please, please, please link it because I'm interested. Is it now I'm going to go through it quickly as destiny takes the lead. I like not only is like everything that's been said so far just completely without the station, even if it was, we're literally the only one providing substantial even if we granted every single thing you've said, none of this gets you anywhere near allowing Russia to invade another country to try to break away territory. That's a great, you know, to get to the point of Russia invading Ukraine. We're just trying to first establish the legitimacy of the will of the people of Donetsk and Lugans and Crimea because of the coup in the Maidan. Now, as far as the events leading up to Russia's intervention, that's a different story. Sure. So let's say that there was a coup. What is the justification for Russia to invade? Russia decided that it wanted to settle the matter peacefully through the Minsk agreements, which the Ukrainian government had agreed to. Now, if it's not peace, it's not peaceful to take territory from another country. You understand that, right? Right. It's also not peaceful to have a violent coup. So that's square, you know, zero. No, no, hold on. Two wrongs don't make a right. If we thought that the Belarusian elections weren't allowed or weren't OK, do you think that means we can go out and invade Belarus? Sure, it is definitely not justified for a country to come in and just take territory, regardless of the will of the people living there. But when you do have an overthrow of the constitutional order and the people of a certain region overwhelmingly decide that they want to join another sovereign state that they're historically, ethnically and linguistically and culturally closer to. None of that matters, but OK. That is definitely not the same as a country just coming in and taking it. If people in their sovereign capacity decide that they want to join another state, that they feel will represent them better than the one that had just overthrew their democratically elected representatives, that's not the same thing as a country just coming in. So if enough people in Texas voted to secede and they wanted to join Mexico, would Mexico be right to send an army into the United States to secure that territory? It was a coup in the United States that overthrew the constitutional order and there was all this, you know, everything was thrown up in the air and the people of Texas for some reason were no longer able to have any sovereign representation in the capital. Then, of course, it would be justified. Do you understand what you're doing for? Do you understand what you're doing? Justified in this country. Do you understand what you're doing for norms around the world when you say that if any country has a coup, another country has a right to come in and peel off territory from that country? You don't think that is what I'm saying at all? I'm not saying what you're saying. No, you're saying that you're saying that there was a coup in Ukraine and some group of people felt like they weren't being represented as a result of that coup. So they want to break away and join another country. And you're saying that that is the case. Is another country just coming in and peeling it away because one implies that they're just doing it at the expense of the people living there. Not necessarily. You can peel away. We could probably find some people in Mexico or Canada the one who joined the U.S. has sent a military there to go and support them. Like when you say. So acting as though that that coup government wasn't responsible for violence against its own civilians who wanted to break away as a result of the coup. By breaking away, you've already committed a violent act. So of course, I would expect the country to violently defend its sovereignty. Didn't you say two wrongs don't make a right? No, self-defense is not a wrong. If somebody is trying to break away from your country, you have a right to defend your sovereignty. Well, if someone if someone overthrows your democratically elected representative, which they had democratic elections afterwards, did they not know that those were not considered legitimate by the people living there because they didn't consider them legitimate. Even Putin considered even Putin considered these elections, but Putin is not the people of Eastern Ukraine. The people of Eastern Ukraine don't get to unilaterally just say we don't like the elections. Therefore, they're not legitimate. No, it doesn't make any sense. They do get to say that if you overthrow our elected representative, we don't have to recognize whatever new elections you're doing because we already voted for a guy before and you just got rid of them. OK, so if they didn't like the new leader, they have a right now to basically break away. No, that's not what I saw. Whether or not they liked him or didn't like him, there was an illegal ouster of this president that was pressed by violence from thugs of criminals that were propped up by the United States and people like current undersecretary of state, Victoria Newland. Sounds like a true czarist over here. Kiro. OK, again, I think, Adam, you just confine yourself to making like these snide insubstantial comments. No, because I've heard them all. Yes, yes. So, you know, my frustration with you is that, you know, you of course are way more into this like hard, like leftist, revolutionary aesthetic, you know. And then here we are. And then, you know, I'm supposed to be like the either Libcuck or Nazi or whatever. And then it's you who are questioning, like who are saying that a revolution or regime change is not valid because you didn't get the votes. You were 10 votes short. No, if you want to have a philosophical argument about it. The glorious revolution failed because we were 10 votes short. Hold on. Something interesting, wait, just one more point. Something that was also mentioned that when, you know, I think he mentioned that like the mob stormed the like the Palace of Yanukovych, right? Which is like it wasn't a storming. People just kind of showed up to his villa, which is which is, you know, where did that come from, right? The money for it. And people just scrolled in. And to this day, it is the Museum of Corruption in Ukraine. You can go up. It's in Mezhygeria. It's in northern Kiev. So this is this is this is the same energy as as, you know, Soviet, like a communist troops, red troops showing up to these arse palaces in Russia and looking around, looking around and saying, wow, look. No, that's not comparable. It's the people. Yeah, the reason that's not comparable is because the October Revolution was already precipitated by the February Revolution, which overthrew an autocracy, which was not a modern democratic state in any capacity. It was not some kind of constitutional order. It was a pure autocracy, which was overthrown already by the February Revolution. And it was the Karensky government, which was in power at the time, which also, you know, lost in the constitutive elections with the unity of the Bolsheviks and the left SRs, deciding that they wanted to get out of the war and overthrow. So, you know, which comparisons completely void, you know, you can't say my point. It's like, I mean, my point was that was that you you you you you saw vehemently opposed the spirit of this whole thing, right? Because Yannick, which wasn't an absolute monarch, but he was actually leading towards it, you know, ordering his police to fire at protesters, but you're saying signing the protest laws. Well, I think Adam, he criminalized protesting, for example. And he also made it legal to try people in absentia. So if so, even if you weren't in the courthouse, you cannot defend yourself. Don't have a lawyer. The court can just send the Institute to 20 years of prison for for just the truth. Was this called in the United States right now is illegally extraditing Julian Assange to lock him up in a CIA black site for 175 years. All right, real quick. You think the United States is anywhere comparable to the laws that Yanukovych passed before he fled the country? Adam, I don't know why you keep like bringing up this this conspiracy theory that there was snipers raining down on the protesters that were controlled by Victor Yanukovych when I just sent you proof testimonies from the people on the ground there who were saying that they saw snipers shooting from Hotel Ukraine. When I saw a sniper near the roof of the main assigns and another sniper on the roof of this hotel on Zosnets, the palace side. These were all Ukrainian Euro Maidon control buildings. So so so there were we there's no ballistic analysis on this article. No, we do have we do have the analysis to I went through this article. It's written by even Kaczynski. Like this seems to be like the conclusions of one guy. He's rushing propaganda. I will not look at it. The ballistic no, no, no, no, no, I've actually read it and it's like pretty underwhelming. It's like it's like no real no no sources whatsoever. It's like the guy I know the guy is strongly insisting. Basically, there's an iron study. There's an iron here because you said something earlier. You said something about how if I'm a revolutionary, why do I think a constitutional order is important? Yeah, like why is it a bootleaker? And I want to actually talk about that because because your argument actually reminds me of a literal argument Mussolini and Hitler made when they were reproached by the Communist about suspending the legal constitutional order of their respective countries. Oh, it was just a revolution, just like what you guys did. And this evinces the fact that it seems like these like ultra liberals like yourselves and outright fascists and Nazis have the same line of thinking that I am more to you or you can you can just suspend the constitutional order of a country at the expense of the actual people living there. And moreover, not only can you do that, but you can actually deny the ability for people who want to after the suspension of this constitutional order have their own revolution and say that's somehow illegitimate and illegal. You can't at the same time speak on behalf of the legal order while at the same time having overthrown it. So pick your argument. I'm not even saying that. Oh, I'm just defending the constitutional order of Ukraine. I'm defending the right of the people in Donetsk and Lugansk and Crimea to exercise their sovereign right to secede from Ukraine. Sure. But but when that happened, when those votes happened in Donetsk and Lugansk, they were already occupied by paramilitary troops supported by Russia. So it was happening under gunpoint, same in Crimea. So those are not the same. So when you say it happens under gunpoint, are you trying to say that if it weren't for that factor, wouldn't have been overwhelming pro-Russian sentiment in those regions to leave? Yeah, no problem. It was more. It was more. What does gunpoint mean? That's extremely. Gunpoint in gunpoint. Yes, in gunpoint means in Crimea, government buildings were taken over by the polite green men. That was Russian Spetsnaz and based on their demonstrations in front of those government buildings by ordinary Crimeans who actually were expressing protests against the coup. No, because the streets are full of Russian special forces with guns. So those were all Russian special forces who were gathering in front of the Capitol building in Crimea. Is that what you're trying to allege? But the little green men with the advanced Russian weaponry and the green suits and no. What about the mobs of civilian protesters who were protesting the ousting of Yanukovych in Crimea? Were those little green men who? The protesters. The protesters that were very frustrated at the idea that there was this illegal ouster of their president that they were. Oh, yeah, sure. And then wait, I'm not done yet. And then in addition to that, when as you put it, they had democratic elections, they didn't want those people to vote in the Donbass. They didn't want people in Donetsk and Lugans to be able to vote in the so-called democratic election. So I don't really know why. Wait, people in the Donbass were kept from voting for new leaders, for new leadership. There were no certain portions. Yes. Actually, while the garkical governors were appointed by the Ukrainian government to in this feudal way rule over the people of the Donbass. Of course. Wait, never heard this slide before. Yeah, no, no, no. Like, I mean. Never heard of this. I wasn't done yet. This actually, yeah. This is actually a more of a Russian thing to have regions be ruled by strongmen. But the Donetsk and Lugans, people's republics, overthrew people like Kolomoisky and other oligarchical families that had directly controlled the government. Kolomoisky was in Dnipro, in Dnipropetrovsk Oblast. The east was firmly Yanukovych area. So he was overthrown by the Donetsk and Lugans, people's republic. They overthrew and unceded these oligarchical families. Yanukovych, there in the east, Yanukovych was the big wig in town, right? It was his base. Yeah, but he was he was he was appointed after the Maidan to serve as governor to be clear. He was only dismissed in 2016 by Poroshenko. So that was years after the Maidan. So Victor Yanukovych, was Victor Yanukovych still an active, the active, what would we say governor of Donetsk and Lugansk Oblast? God, you stutter. So no, he was not Yanukovych was not. Hey, do you guys deny that the Ukrainians were planning a full-scale invasion? Why do we jump from like one conspiracy to that? We really can't stop at any point. Well, we put up all this evidence and we put up, we give you guys all these sources and then you say, well, I don't believe these sources. No, I went to the top again. Evidence for what? Wait, hold on. I'm just curious. What is the next thing that you might deny, even though we'll give you evidence? Wait, can you wait? Can you? Okay, this is what happens when somebody is scared because they know they don't have a good point. So they just have to go from one point to the next. I like to talk for so long. Before we go into the Q&A. So I do want to make sure that people are able to hear what you guys are saying. Yeah, so at this point, like, Hinkul is kind of out of our arguments and he's trying to do that. Yeah, I'm good to go. I'm good to go, like, right to the Q&A. Yeah, me too. I mean, I think we can do it. No, no, no. I would like to address one last thing. Do you deny that the Ukrainian top brass military personnel were planning a full-scale invasion into the Donbas in March of 2022? I don't know how you can evade your most sovereign territory that is. With March of 2022, as in like a month, weeks after the Russian invasion began. No. Prior to the Russian invasion, that was heavy, right? There was documents that were being prepared by top military brass that they were going to launch an invasion into the Donbas, a full-scale. Okay, so, okay, so, so, so, so let me get this straight. Ukraine, so Russia messes all these hundreds that 150,000 troops on the border. Right on the other side of the 100,000 plus that Ukraine had amassed. Yes. In their own country. In their own country. Russia's were in their own country as well. But the difference was, Ukraine is trying to control their own borders. Russia's trying to invade another country. Why would you try to equate these two things? That presumes that it can rightfully be said to be their borders. It is, because even Russia and every other sovereign state on the planet recognized it as their borders. Of course. But didn't the Budapest Memorandum in 1994, the Budapest Memorandum in 1994, which Russia agreed to, or 1981. Anyway, Russia, Russia agreed to Ukraine's borders, and I guess that was, I guess it was like worth. That was under the presumption. Just a prank. The Russian speakers in Eastern Ukraine were going to be democratically represented. No, wait, where do you, that wasn't written into the recognition of anything. You can't make it conditional afterwards. That is written in the foundation of since 1991, the modern European. No. Ukrainian state itself. It's show me where it's written that we can invade your country. We feel like you're not representing. No, that's not what's written. Exactly. So don't even try to pretend. Okay. Ukrainian state's founding was premised on the idea that everyone was going to be given democratic representation, including the people in the east who spoke Russian, and also the people who were ethnically Russian. I mean, this deal was necessary for a stable transition into the post-Soviet era. It wasn't necessary for any stable transition. Yes, it was. Do you think the USSR had a call and whether or not the Republic broke off from the USSR? The USSR fell apart. They had no control over it. No, but on a multilateral level. No, you're just making up words now. No, what? Countries like Russia, Belarus, and others, and also the Western partners who were dealing with, all did have to negotiate the terms under which this was going to be happening. And then finally, you know, it would have been unthinkable at the time for the stability of the region. I mean, it was already unstable. You had places like Abkhazia and Ossetia and Transnistria with these disputed territories and populations. I mean, so it was on these aren't disputed. These are broken off by Russia. Yeah. Well, they were not to get back to Transnistria and Moldova, Georgia, yeah, of course. Not by Russia, but by people living. Was that the brigade that they were planning to launch this formal invasion into the Donbass with was trained by U.S. and British instructors in Levov or Leviv in accordance with NATO training programs. It's their territory. So it was literally, they had they had began supplying increased amounts of military artillery to Ukraine. Then they were planning this full-scale invasion with NATO trained Ukrainian brigades. And they were going to slaughter even more civilians in the Donbass, which is another reason for Russia launching this protective mission, operation mission, whatever you call it, to stop this from happening to continue it's slaughtering. That is taking place for the past eight years against the people of the Donbass. And a blood and soil genocide is more like it. But I'm going to quote Sergei. You're literally a Nazi supporter. I'm going to literally our Nazi supporter. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Your arguments are let me let me. Yeah, okay, wait. You, you're supposed to mean about Stepan, Bondera. Fine, fine, fine, fine, fine. I don't mean no reason to allow you to overlap. I don't think so. I'm going to, I'm going to buy you. I wouldn't show you. I don't want to talk to you so that my voice can also not say this. I'm going to close. I'm going to close with with the quote from Sergei Lavrov. We do within our borders what we want. What we want. We move our military. We do military maneuvers. The way we choose and no other country has any say in the matter. Sergei Lavrov. I think it applies to Ukraine as well. The republics are disputed territory and Ukraine signed the Minsk. Disputed by disputed by whom? By the people living there and the Ukrainian government. That's why there was a conflict. That's why there was the Minsk agreements which the Ukrainian government voluntarily signed and then later claim they had signed at gunpoint even though France and Germany were also parties to that agreement. Anyway, legally to this day no one really like officially contested the Donetsk. It was maybe a Russian-made statement to the fact but as far as international agreements are concerned Russia still considered that area to be Ukraine. Yeah, but if we can go to the Q&A if you want to by the way I'm done. International agreements are not the sole factor in defining what constitution is. Wait, I thought the law was super important now it's... There's sovereignty at the internal level and then sovereignty at the external level now. It seems like... External sovereignty is determined by how mad your neighbors are I guess. Yeah, yeah. No, internal sovereignty is determined by things like this. I mean read the base of your liberalism. Your liberal thinkers talk about the social contract and the need for an agreement to become to between the government and the people unless what? I mean Thomas Jefferson even he said that it is right and justified for people to overthrow their government if they're not in a constitutional way. People to overthrow their government not for a foreign power to come in and take over your shit when there's conflict. You yourself admitted that while Putin recognized the new government of Ukraine it's the people in the eastern Ukraine who didn't. So it's not a foreign government who's imposing It's foreign troops that have been on the ground since 2013 in the Donbass. That is the issue. I mean that is your allegation We'll move into the next one. I hate to do this guys but just because we want to get you guys out of here by a decent time Didymus says by the way folks all of our guests are linked in the description if you'd like to hear more about their views you can by clicking on those links below that includes in the podcast we put our guest links in the description box there too Didymus says Ukrainian nationalists did not get their anti-Semitism from the Nazis. They were doing pogroms during the Russian civil war. Yeah, but the nature of the anti-Semitism as voiced by people like Bandera during the 30s was qualitatively different than whatever historical European pogroms were happening before. So that's just that's like saying there was pogroms in the medieval times in Ukraine. It doesn't speak to the unique character of the anti-Semitic violence during the Holocaust. Everybody, Hitler's anti-Semitism and Nazi anti-Semitism was this like weird ultimate almost ultimate culmination of essentially hundreds others of years of like Christian anti-Jewish propaganda and like traditional European Yeah, well you could also say it was actually the last word infrared and then we got it because the question was originally for you and then we got to go the next one because we're touched on time. Infra, if you if you wanted to say something like I said I was just going to say it was unique because it represented this post-Christian pan-European pagan idea that the Jewish people are foreigners to Europe and that they have to and then just like the slaws and just like other so-called subhuman races. Anti-Semitism across Europe like all over Europe past World War One like it wasn't one or two countries, right? But yeah. Anyway, next question anyway. This one from Mitchell says question for both sides if you had the power and money to end this war how would you do it? Supply more heavy weapons to Ukraine until they crush the Russian army to the dust so we can restore the borders of Ukraine that Russia originally agreed to and then we can later on we can do fun stuff like break up the Russian empire into its constituent states so we will not have any imperialist power which active in Europe in 2022 again in 21st century. Jackson, you want to go out? You can go. Yeah, very, very simple. I mean what Isov something just said is an effort to prolong the war. What I would do is I make the proposal and hopefully Ukraine would have some sense of logic and agree to it and understand that if they don't it's going to end up much worse for them that you have to cede the regions that Russia has already established control over including Donetsk, Lugansk and Crimea because Russia has the ability to continue advancing Russia should also get Mikolayev, Zaporizhia and Odessa very historically significant town to them Ukraine must remain neutral meaning no NATO stationing of artillery or personnel or training in the country anymore and all official Nazi outed Nazi battalions and regiments and political leaders must appear before an international tribunal to try them for war crimes if any crimes of aggression that would be set before an international charter also just in addition to all that because I agree with all that since we're talking about power and money I would also invest in the infrastructure in economic development of both Eastern and Western Ukraine such that the source of neo-nazism Nazi extremism and anti-Russian sentiment because they're blaming Russia for their own oligarchical zombie economy I would have mutual economic development which would lead to long-lasting peace in the region I would say that the agreement should be really simple all of the territory should be returned to Ukraine this includes the Donbas and it includes Crimea Russia should probably even leave Sevastopol I think they've lost any legitimate claim they've had even running the base there I think that Russia shown that they are incapable of sustaining any long-term ground war they are their military discipline for a variety of reasons just abysmal and the further and longer that the war goes on the more Russia's economy is going to suffer and the more you know what little military honor they had will shrink and disappear into nothing Russia's economy is really being hit huh? kind of keep in mind that all of these guys that are laughing right now called that the war would be over in like a week and now they're on like the most massive because you are literally on record I can bring the clip up of you saying admitting you're literally they didn't control they didn't control they didn't control Russia's economy what is on okay failure hold on we can't we can't literally we can't hold on hold on all right you guys we gotta move forward I hate for this but just just to be clear about that what I said was that in my view that things would not have gone as planned well I was wrong about that oh they didn't go on but will you admit that you were wrong about the this one we I you guys I need to do this will you admit that you were wrong about the ruble being totally worthless even though not only as I their currency is having extreme trouble right now but okay the ruble has reached historical just announced that the rubles the top performing currency in the world and that's some crazy how that works huh definitely true right not only not only is the ruble the top performance not not only is it the top performing currency in the world Russia's military is one of the strongest standing armies in the world as well the military just went a strict the defense that they have for their armored units is super on point everything is going exactly incredible this one this one incredible incredible incredible next question oh trigger we gotta go Pedro HM thanks very much says why pro Russian Ukrainians don't move to Russia why not offer asylum it seems a simpler solution than annexing a whole country it's five usd by the way because oh that's an easy one oh yeah because it's it's their it's their homeland with their living where they're settled and during the soviet union that was the bread and butter of their way of life how did they get there by the way it's a it depends on who some were there how did how did ethnic Russians get to Ukraine by the way that is like funny he's funny funny century the real answer is Russia doesn't want those ethnic Ukrainians or the ethnic Russians from Ukraine to go back they don't give a fuck about those people those people are only in Ukraine so that they can have a claim to the territory why would Russia want all the ethnic Russians back then they have less of a reason to do a civil war over there of course they want those people right over there no no Russia is I know you're triggered but no one can hear you you understand me when you taught that that do you not even do you not even know what I will say no Russia is they've been there for centuries what are you talking about the reason why they should not have to flee to Russia is because that is their home and they shouldn't have to leave it because a U.S. installed apparatus has decided that they want to harass murder and torture the civilians there because they don't like their leadership or their controlled leadership okay next question I think we're done Mr. Johnson says it's not that I support Ukraine it's that I support humanitarianism needles needless to say a lot of innocent lives are being lost though Putin of Putin needs to stop girl I mean it's I mean the most horrible thing is that like Russia went in saying that like oh we're about to protect the Russian speaking Ukrainians from from the like the little Russians from the evil Ukrainian and Nazis and the most of the and essentially the overwhelming casualties of the war are Russian speaking Ukrainians because Russia is just going fucking squashed earth as we've seen like cruise missiles a presidential neighborhoods artillery barrages the DOS one thermobaric missiles hit hit you know housing areas massive civilian casualties in more people currently they're trying to cover up the the civilian death toll we see mass graves upon mass graves it just so happens that of course Russian Russians are saying that the that the the that the as of did it but like in Ukraine I mean it's like someone takes a shit on the street Russia will say it's it was a job so you know it's it's it just so happens that YouTube censorship enforces all of these allegations you're saying we're not even allowed to contest any of them fucking yeah is that it again god damn it yeah yeah George Shorosh cocked you up would you deny that coming up from literally your view can't even be debated because it's enforced by YouTube censorship and yet here we are debating it right now yeah we're not we're not debating various individual claims he just made about Russia's we literally can't talk about that or else they'll demonetize us yeah demonetize wow permanently wow wow they remove their super chat ability they also can issue a that is no actually happened that's when coming that's not censorship saying if you talk about something they're going to remove your ability to monetize your content they also yes that that is not censorship they also issue is not censorship I'm sorry they've also issued suspensions over it as well if you want censorship look at look at what Russia is doing with these journalists so that's you want censorship Russia wasn't saying censorship no no last thing last thing if you want censorship look at what Zelensky has done in banning all opposition parties and locking up imprisoning torturing and killing all office wait what Zelensky look at what's Zelensky on the SBU the the the the the the the the the the long list of names although considering that you're a big the CIA black side I can't imagine that you have a problem in the world with the SBU desquads and yeah what about people like Yan talks your is it like the few journalists who wrote something like is this some kind of like farad conspiracy theory that that you guys are like pushing you're the the only conspiracy theorist here of days and the also I'm just got in here this one coming in this one Fernandez T says here to support you James thanks for your kind support friends says and by the way a hundred percent of super chats are going to go to charity today that one is linked in the description box they uh said let's see thanks for your support though and Captain V says for SB3 says what's worse a legal grind for this debate this one coming in from Chris Moorlox says for Lestini and Soidem Ukraine sorry is what it says they say Ukraine reform I love you guys Ukraine reformed its National Guard in 2014 it had not existed since 2000 seven battalions were instantiated from ultra right groups Source Wall Street Journal 2014 I mean if what percent of those people were Nazis what percent of them were like nationalist radicals we don't know this is just like you know source please yeah it's it's it's a good it's a good book how many people in the AFD are are Nazis quite a lot of them the AFD has can you measure that actually yes yes absolutely in West Germany there's this based on like polling data within Germany in West Germany the AFD is generally trying to be like a more traditional rotting populist party in the east it's full on blood and soil and you can actually keep track of this through empirical data if you look it up okay well I don't see the data is confirmed look it up I mean Wikipedia okay well unless it's suspicious for you I think this is a debate between people who know what they're talking about and Wikipedia you realize that Jackson literally linked me a Wikipedia article earlier to talk about the the I use your own source to prove you wrong thanks okay something that you still haven't apologized for but whenever you want to I'm open to it I might consider it okay Donald I might consider your apology all right to me anyway the analytical failure says if they're if there were 10 votes short that's how coups work nice also said evidence of I don't know I want people to know don't you understand that there's been elections in the U.S. where the margins were really small those margins matter girl the Chris Morlax says for Adam the 2014 referendum held in Crimea Donetsk Lankansk 92% voted to join Russia you claim the entire population of these areas seven million people over 85% turnout was at Russian gunpoint sure do you think there was like an incentive to to go out and actually you know what the better question on the Ukrainian military is there what's the question the question was for me in those areas the Ukrainian military was not there the Ukrainian military did not exist almost at the time had like two three thousand deployable troops and that's it so a better question though what would have happened if the people accidentally voted that they want to remain part of Ukraine like do you think Russians would have just like packed up and it's like okay well I guess the with other people and we have just left Crimea and left the Donbas yeah the Donbas of course not obviously the people pro-Ukrainian people at that point so these referendums happened later after the Russian takeover so I mean pro-Ukrainian people kind of saw the writing on the wall there's Russian troops you know abducting people et cetera and essentially threatening people or so a massive chilling effect as well so those people who who are pro-Russian will stay those people who are pro-Ukrainian will most likely leave is it happening in Crimea for example but actually the Russian some Russian or Oregon like I have this long video about Ukraine check it out in that I covered that this Russian state organization accidentally accidentally leaked the real Kremlin like the real Crimea referendum results and it was really close to 50-50 with much of the pro-Ukrainian population having having I'm not sure that was real oh sure Adam look look Adam I have a question for you I have a question for Adam oh it's the Q&A section feel free I know I have a question Adam I'm sure it's going to be good faith yeah no it's very good faith Adam your videos prior to starting the Ukraine coverage where I thought they were pretty interesting they're about infrastructure they're about like transport you seemed very obsessed with making sure that the trains were arriving on time and although you know different areas you were covering and talking about yeah yeah yeah very very obsessed actually with trains arriving on time so I'm curious what led you from talking about trains arriving on time to go to defending Nazis like Stefon Banderer yeah yeah Holocaust trains Nazis Auschwitz we get the idea sure I don't defend Nazis in fact you have you defended Azov and and Stefon Banderer I didn't defend Azov I said I support the idea of throwing Azov at the Russians that way you can stand the tide of imperialist aggression from Russia and a bunch of Nazis die in the process this is consequentialism I think you claim that the presence of a military means it's at gunpoint have you ever the presence of a foreign military dude how can you be so dense hold on okay have you ever considered that if let's just assume you're right in the foreign military was there you ever consider that the foreign military was only there because it was like overwhelmingly already known that the region had pro-russian sentiment now it wasn't formally what it doesn't matter I don't know why you keep using this childish argument whether or not you have pro whatever sentiment or anti whatever sentiment doesn't give the right for a military to go into another country but okay hold new elections while they're occupying a country that's really misleading to say it's a foreign military when the people living there are russian speakers many of them ethnic russians militaries aren't decided by their language they're even citizens they're even sit many of them are even citizens of the russian wait wait so militaries aren't decided by where else other people have citizenship or what destiny destiny like yeah i know but it's just how is it how is it it's you're making it seem like you're making it sound like they would that's grounds for the idea that they were coerced into voting the way they it can be grounds to the idea that that coerce you added military that took a country that took part of a country away from another country and then helped new elections there with the people there that is what you're right it is possible for that to happen but in context it's clearly not the case sure let me ask you this look one good fake question that adam kind of posed earlier okay if they would have voted to stay with ukraine do you think russia would have packed their shit up and left i genuinely do i think they would have been you're absolutely delusional i think they would have been so shocked they would have been they would have been delusional i think they would have been so shocked that they had miscalculated so shocked what the sentiment in that region i'm we're talking about miscalculated like they have their entire destiny that's one last one last one last one because i didn't get to put my two cents in this ground one last thing i don't even think you have two cents to put together destiny it's incredible that you're putting this argument forward when literally viktor yonakovic was the one who said he didn't want to work with the e you and as a result of that the us actually cued him out of political yeah you can say him you can say that as much as you want well you're trying to ask like oh russia's no evidence for a coup you can say it as much as you want but there's no evidence if u s didn't make the argument maybe russia would have you guys can just repeat fake shit over and over again expected it to become so Crimea was brainwashed but the Maidan people were not brainwashed by you the Maidan people were Ukrainians that were protesting from yeah they weren't brainwashed by uh western media but the people in eastern Ukraine were brainwashed they were brainwashed by western media they saw western people living happy democratic economically prosperous lives and they thought wow i want that yeah their lives and that was the brainwashing that happened and they were also gone so much better under the western sphere of influence it's incredible how the state of Ukraine has just prospered oh no when the Russian oligarchs were running fucking everything in Ukraine they were doing way better than true absolutely the thing is absolutely it's not like Ukraine was one of the most corrupt countries in the fucking world leading to the end of the western model of liberal democracy that gives rise to oligarchy historically in that there we go now we're getting to the real Russian argument these would actually be interesting debate if you guys weren't so fucking like slimy you want to have the real conversation of like the collapse of like kind of instilling itself as kind of a new world like multi-polar thing in the east that's the actual interesting conversation that the real reason why Russia's in Ukraine but you guys aren't going to sort of have that conversation privatized and the free market decided I'd be happy to have that conversation no you two you two decide you want to admit that that's the actual rational of everything happening hold on that's that's an interesting conversation but you're not a good faith actor to have that conversation I would be happy to have that conversation the entire reason for Putin's the entire reason for Putin's illiberal authoritarianism is because under liberal democracy oligarchs reign free that's why Putin has to be a authoritarian to reign them in must move forward gnarly bonus full says can jackson hinkle update us on the NATO commanders in avastal oh i can't because the russians have not publicize any of their names but they have announced that there's going to be war criminal tribunals that involve NATO instructors in marjupil that take place wow imagine our show this one coming in from chris morlock says destiny and adam how does it feel let's see how does it feel to be losing in the conflict and i don't know if they mean that if they're trying to suggest that i think they mean they can't be talking about ukraine losing the conflict because that's just they say and looking at novo roy sia yeah okay so this was so they do mean the they do mean the conflict you know i mean the russian offensive in several years gets pretty embarrassing they pulled up the it's like select roseguardia troops they they they like which is they're they're like paratroopers also Wagner and they pulled together like 25 but but technical groups to assault several years and they were fucked by the Ukrainians holy shit Ukrainians sort of a feigned retreat to this industrial area to the buster city and then russians like came in guns blazing Ukrainians can kind of just like whoop kind of attack back and this is like this is actually this won't be like a the science they win but it's going to be like an attrition thing and this is the illusion they've literally lost every single major battle and Zelensky just what are you saying two days ago what are you talking about those Zelensky just went out two days ago shut the fuck up Zelensky went out two days ago and said that what battle did they Ukraine is currently losing a hundred troops a day that is a staggering amount yeah it's called war but like they can Russia lost Kiev they lost Kiev said they lost Ukraine is no country Russia did not lose and they only the first what you said and so what was the first what you said first they lost Kiev and then they what battle and suiting Kiev show me the evidence excuse me like what what battle and suiting Kiev Russia literally has like retreated from even attempting to take Kiev what are you talking about they couldn't even they couldn't even they couldn't even even get to Kiev my question is what battle there was no there was no battle in Kiev because they didn't even make it that far because Russia's glad we figured that out I'm glad we figured out they just had to roll a couple tanks across the street helping Ukraine would surrender out the obvious Adam something there was no battle in Kiev Russia honest question though like well wait Jackson honest question like who do you think you're convincing with this like there was no there was no battle in Kiev you just sure yeah because Russians couldn't couldn't reach that far because you couldn't stop them and then the Russians had to retreat like this is so if there was hey Adam if there was such a battle in Kiev in Russia they surrounded Mariupol with a four to one troop ratio and in Kiev at best they had a one to one point five ratio which meaning they had no intentions to actually invade the city do you think if they did initially they were staging troops in Bhusha to try and offset Ukrainian troops in Kiev and make sure that they had to stay hunkered down there so they couldn't fight in this is the biggest fucking cope I've ever heard of my life oh my god dude that's called a faint strategy have you never heard of it it's consistent with the originally in our schools they've never announced and in fact Adam Adam last thing here last thing here because this is important what you said you are literally arguing that in that the Ukrainians are operating a faint strategy but you act like the Russians couldn't have potentially argued or carried out a faint strategy in Kiev which is what they did it's it's the best faint ever dude like loose thousand troops it is loose everywhere on the ground and then got him dude got him unaccompanied armor getting destroyed by like dudes with fucking rocket launchers on their shoulders like no infantry accompanying literally any of their troops anywhere like yeah yeah yeah Ukraine beat them for that combat footage reddit combat foot it's you can literally watch the videos in what world are you losing tanks to one dude stepping out of a fucking garage with a fucking rocket launcher you serious they didn't fight in Kiev and they were fainting to keep troops station in Kiev and that's what they've continued to do but if you yes things in Belarus yes what do you think that they would otherwise be doing there so yes because because the troops around Kiev are troops that are territorial mostly who would have stayed there anyway and Russia knew this so this was the whole thing the mobile part of the Ukrainian which can be sort of a can be sent like those were already sent east the people who were around Kiev most of them were territorials so even if it was a faint most of the troops would have stayed there anyway so it was pointless and it's even more ridiculous but of course it wasn't a thing which is why the Russians led and they still make their presence around around Belarus they left after a month of being there because they realized they didn't have to be there it's also consistent with Russia the original stated intentions this one coming also never stated in intention to take Kiev Yuzholma says love watching people like Destiny defending they say next time he claims someone is quote dog whistling about a Nazi conspiracy theory just remind him he supported genocidal Nazis against Slavic people who is he talking about NATO shit and you a slot I have no I don't even know what that's a reference to but okay this one coming in front burgeon CIA rad lib question for destiny it's just folks we're looking for a meaningful question here he's Steven okay this one coming it from you know you've got thick skin you've been on the internet longer than I have okay bubble gum gun says 80 percent of Ukraine government positions are held by Israel I don't know what's okay it's real it's a full on Nazi country guys this one coming in from poll says I was agreeing with Jackson at the start but then he made fun of the other let's see he was being rude question for Adam what are his thoughts about Turkey blocking Finland and Sweden from joining NATO as for being rude to Adam I don't have a lot of sympathy for Nazi defenders as for Turkey and NATO I think for Adam on what he thinks this is oh go for it sure so so sure so sure Turkey is now I don't got is a huge piece of shit obviously but like Turkey is now trying to eke out some sort of concession from from NATO countries they will not keep up the block forever I think but what they want to basically Erdogan is trying to tie up some loose Kurdish ends with this because Sweden and Finland have been like friendly to Kurds and plus they they're trying to end the blockade of of like the end the embargo on like Turkish arms purchases it's like a real politic thing I think it'll go away it's interesting how the constituent members of the liberal democratic alliance whether in the EU or NATO increasingly assert their own sovereignty with these authoritarian strongmen it's almost like liberal democracies failing the world over Poland, Hungary, Turkey I mean what's next yeah I mean Russia is definitely not controlled by an authoritarian strongman of all for sure what a great but Russia is not a liberal no Russia is not a liberal democracy that's the point it's a far right it's not an ethno state it's the opposite of an ethno state you're literally making ethnic arguments for Russia to invade other countries wait that's not an ethno state what the fuck is what's that's it's not literally ethnic argument they're ethnic russians so they should be able to invade osatians are not ethnic russians osatians are not ethnic russians sure and russians how many times have you and jacks I said ethnic russians in this debate to justify aggression in the east that's not come on that's not come on some should make a complication to illustrate the historical cultural and civilizational ties no historical culture and civilization you can talk about history, culture, and civilization that's not what you're saying though you're saying ethnically russia yeah that's what you're saying that's an I'll answer that that's not an addition I'll answer that the only reason why no I wasn't asking you jackson I was I was I was I was okay well I'm gonna answer it I'm gonna answer it because I I don't I see we don't care who is the question for the only reason why wait is he is this even his question or the only reason why oh okay I don't know why he's answering when I was talking about the only the only the only reason why the answer it one way I do I do I will I will answer it I get to that what's the next answer what's the next question you made a statement and I'm gonna respond what's that the only reason why the the ethnic we do we have a lot of questions hey he made a statement and I want to respond not to you I was talking to you I'm not talking to you jackson give me like 30 seconds do eject 30 seconds do it I I'll answer I'll answer the only reason why the ethnic Russian argument is important is because Ukraine is led by a group of anti-ethnic Russian sycophants that want to kill them all and rid them from Ukraine it's not it's not it's not important to Russia it's important to the Ukrainian fascists that want to get them out of their country admittedly the fascists who have one seat out of 450 got it the fascist that was the chair of the Verkhovna Rada yes Andrei Paroby this one who is now out of power by the way for like Jay Grimes so documentation on the extent of Nazi integration into the Ukraine National Guard includes extensive documentation by Wapo Vice and even CNN Russian propaganda I presume sure I mean of course there are foreign elements as in with any security structures and at that point this is why I advocate seeking them at the Russians right because at that point you'll stop the imperialist onslaught and you'll end up with less Nazis in the end that's also what the win-win it's also what the the British intelligence wanted to do with Hitler against the Soviets so congratulations for re-enabling fascism and Nazism historic yeah yeah good thing good thing the only people re-enabling it would be Russia that's attacking into the country then and Bolesky left when the Azov battalion was assumed in 2014 into the military it's not like they kept their like they have this like official far right leadership or whatever you guys can keep going to try to find like historically he's the commander of the Azov battalion no he was he left in 2014 when they were assumed into the military you can look even at the key of independent they still quote him as the commander of the Azov battalion the current commander is like Proko Pensky or some shit it's not it's not Bolesky left when they were assumed into the military he literally he literally was in Mariupol I don't know where he is I don't really care but I know that the current leader of the Azov battalion looking out the key of independent literally quoted him as such when he made the claim that there was a chemical the current commander is Denise Proko Penko as of 2017 to now and Bolesky left in 2014 I can quote your own Wikipedia you since you like that as a source so much here you go you can read this everybody there you go what's the next question just coming in from Chris Moorlach says for Adam did Russia send 50,000 troops to take a Kiev a city of 3.5 million it pulled five AFU battalions off the Dunbas line and allowed for the current situation 95 percent of Lugansk under Russian control can you repeat that question the first part especially yep they said did Russia send 50,000 troops to Kiev a city of 3.5 million oh yeah okay gotcha gotcha yeah so yes because the Russian blood originally was that the Kiev regime you know the the Nazi Hunder or whatever will collapse and the Ukrainian troops will lay down their arms in the face of the overwhelming Russian superiority which of course didn't happen you have evidence in the first sure listen to what you made a point in dude and also also in the in the first few days of war we saw Russians essentially charging into Kiev just like small disparate operations it also in in Ukrainian uniforms which is a war crime by the way but they got executed there were multiple multiple attempts at Zelensky's life so basically these these idiots imagine that the Ukrainian army will just disperse and they're just gonna roll into the city and do you have evidence of their plan yes and have a victory parade on the 9th of May actually funny thing is in many cars in many vehicles of the Russians they found these like parade uniforms like these idiots actually thought that they're gonna have the 9th of May parade on like Kraschatyk that sounds like something completely made oh whoa whoa whoa hey dude this question was for me feel free to answer your question if you get one so anyway this was the plan it was horribly misguided they had to revise it like eight times and now it now it looks like the Russian army has finally culminated in Severlunetsk a town of 100,000 which which is just embarrassing so we'll from now and I think we'll be seeing more and more it sounds like they were targeting strategic whoa whoa whoa whoa hey hey I'm not I'm not I'm not done and after that we'll we'll be seeing more and more Ukrainian harassment counterattacks and Russian nutrition and we'll see hopefully the Russian Empire will collapse this one can we I'm just curious for Jackson and Haas to give you guys a chance to talk can you explain what was the what was the Russian strategy behind sending like so many like unaccompanied APCs and unaccompanied tanks to just get like solid destroyed by people with rocket launchers what was the strategy there for the military plus the 30 mile truck convoy don't forget that yeah can you explain what the military strategy was okay I'll first day I'll first say destiny you are right about Belitsky no longer being commander but I incorrectly quoted the Kiev independent to on April 11th said that he was Azov's leader and they've been known to lie throughout this war so I incorrectly quoted them I get I quoted them correctly but they incorrectly reported I guess is a better way of saying it as to why Russian military tanks were blown the hell up I mean they yeah they they lost a lot of military personnel there was multiple times in which Ukrainians when Russians were trying to enter certain cities they just blew entire platoons and units up they they slaughtered them but overall the military strategy of Russia has been been a flow of water approach where they go where they can go and if they get stopped by Ukrainians they don't continue pushing through into the city that's that's how what it works hey I let you talk special operation let them talk about it let them talk about it it's a very special operation it's this is very funny yeah so there was multiple attempts where they tried to go into certain cities and they were blown up and they were slaughtered by the Ukrainians that's a that's a true thing they have there's even instances where they went to cities so go ahead finished yeah but the overall military strategy has proved to be effective because again they've controlled far more land than Ukraine has been able to protect I mean they've lost virtually every single battle there's been a few small battles in which Ukraine has won but the overall large battles such as in Mariupol such as in Harkiv such as in Papasnya they've lost all these major battles thus far they've lost severed on Yetsk almost entirely according to Ukrainian officials they've lost 80% of it they've already started taking town small villages outside Lizychonsk where they're about to encircle 16,000 Ukrainian troops so yeah they may have lost can I can I ask a question do you their strategy has been very effective sure so when you say effective crowded so Russia has said that they have lost what is this almost 24 thousand people what show me the evidence what is your data for that okay hold on let me check I'm trying to look at the casualties of the Russian Ukraine also just to be clear these are usually the the the the the the the the the the the the the Russia's retreating because of this huge counterattack Russian soldiers have even pulled back and tanks they've even pulled back even at the slightest whiff of the like most minimal resistance damn it doesn't even hold on that doesn't do that isn't because they're scared of these people and that they're going to lose to them because they were trying to minimize casualties so they'll pull back oh sure usually encircle the place for a more long-term strategy I mean they could have stormed this as offstole and they did so how come they didn't circle Kiev because wasn't their strategy to take Kiev at their time at the I thought encirclement was anyway so the the real reason for anyone interested is is attrition so if you pull in like like guns blazing no combined arms just sending the heavy Ukrainians will blow the blow the blow the fuck up with like mobile it's because they want to minimize casualties yeah of course even when Ukrainians have not just like they're just like they're multiple fucking growing anyway so anyway so this is called attrition so basically you don't you don't defeat an army head on you essentially yes death by the thousand yes it is a war of attrition yes which is what's happening Kiev and how to keep Russians had to no it's not this was unsustainable mega cop it is without a doubt a war of attrition Kiev was an example of a faint strategy but yes this is a war of attrition and it's proving quite successful for the Russians I mean the Russians they could have how can you how can you they could have taken many places many villages and they decided not to because they want to minimize casualties on both sides I don't understand how you or I understand as for you I I okay I'm curious I'm just curious what would what would the success look like to you in a month because like if I would if I asked you guys a few months ago you would have said that obviously they're going to be controlling Kiev I don't I don't have the Russian military play Russia has not been transparent about I've tried I've made the mistake of trying to like infer and speculate about what their like plan is it's not disclosed to the public it's only disclosed to the actual people in charge of the operation but I'm not going to try and speculate on what you know how what their timetable is or any of that kind of I will say I will make I'll make Jackson just Jackson really quick just well no he asked me a question I want to respond oh sure sure I'll make a guess I wouldn't be surprised if Russia doesn't end the operation until they get Mikhail Iov Zaporizhia and Odessa okay so Jackson I gotta wrap this up pretty quick don't feel just yeah one sentence Jackson don't feel too bad if you don't have if you don't know the Russian military this sentence without stuttering go for it oh sure I hope that Jackson crazy no just don't feel too bad if you don't have the Russian military play because because Russia doesn't have to give them a chance to actually you throw how many languages do you speak Jackson what the fuck it's this guy's ESL debating you and you're making fun of it for stuttering that you actually retarded anytime somebody makes fun of a foreign language he's just speaking your fucking native language the other guy keeps calling retarded that that unironically yes like how can you make fun of an ESL guy who's studying in English that's me I have to hand it because I have to go hold on to be fair to be fair to be fair I think it's only so I think you asked a question I need to save space to be fair it's only fair that he knows English because he's trying to use our country to fight his battles it has nothing I'm just saying that like of all the things you can make fun of somebody for you can't make fun of a multilingual person for being like not quite as quick with your own language that's like the domestic of the world make fun of somebody for it he's trying to use our sons and daughters all right he's trying to use our words okay our sons and daughters okay he asked an avocado question I want you to use our language to respond without being interrupted oh that's that's fine I think we can go on that is it I promise I guess we're gonna get them out of here at a decent time so do you think in three months will Russia control more or less territory than it does right now in Ukraine without a doubt more okay without a doubt in fact I think they'll control more by the end of this week yeah finally one last thing I just wanted to end it on this we couldn't get Adam in on this one so original plan is on that was the tweet modern day debate put out in public that's it the what we which tweet March 2nd 2022 saying okay so James did they cancel or did I cancel the previous one hold on I've got it right here since you guys let's see we did it on Twitter so this is what I said because someone happened to like it during the debate is this I said to clarify tomorrow's event with Omni Liberals friend Infraha's and Jackson Winkle uh Jackson Hinkle is still on I asked Dylan Burns if Adam something could take his Dylan's place and Dylan was open to it because he's burning the wig at both ends we couldn't get Adam in on this one in other words it wasn't that he had already committed and then backed out he just said it wasn't gonna fit with the schedule so original plan is on which wasn't us well I don't think anybody backed out if I remember didn't we have an original debate set up with the four of us and then those two don't don't think it's incredible though though that no the there's no evidence to audience and claiming that we backed out when it was in fact a scheduling error on his own part hold on James James James James can you tell me why was that James was there an original debate between all four of us supporter and oh wait he's a he's a massive there was hey James let James yeah James there was yeah I remember it was something that I think I said I came to second second of March second of actually and ha as you guys and I said could it be destiny and Adam and then I think when infrared had a hate boner for Dylan infrared said no Dylan has to be in it he or no he said Dylan can't be a co-host I reject that debate and I don't know all I said I said I said yes to the debate with Adam something no to the bill and as a why would Dylan co-host he's not exactly okay that's fine but you guys so you had a reason but you did back out of the first break that's all we know we didn't but they but modern day debates Adam was ready to debate Adam was ready to debate and then he said he couldn't because of a scheduling conflict yeah well no that sounds like a second debate that was never agreed on that how is that a second debate if we just said we didn't want Dylan burns to be the co-host yeah why would he think the reschedule a co-host is supposed to be useful why would he want Dylan burns I really don't think anybody backed out I want to say folks but all of our guests are linked to the description if you'd like to learn more about their views we highly encourage you we really do appreciate our guests and I will put up that charity receipt as 100% of the super chats from tonight's debate we'll be going to the domestic action center and so thank you very much for your support that receipt for that donation will be up on the social tab on our youtube youtube channel within the next 48 hours thank you to our guests though it's been a true pleasure to have you guys thank you thank you it's been a good debate with that I'll be back it is a moment with a post credit scene let you know about upcoming debates with that stick around thanks so much folks ladies and gentlemen want to say thanks so much for being with us we are thrilled to have you here and thanks so much for your support as this is a charity stream we're excited about a good cause namely the domestic abuse action center is a great charity they do a fantastic job with the funds that they get they have a great charity watchdog rating because we really do we try to be very here full about what charities we give to when we do these charity events and they have a great rating namely suggesting that they actually do give you could say they put the funds toward what they say they're actually doing them with them namely helping people that have been victims of domestic violence and so that is something that we are we can say we all agree on that whether you be more Republican more Democrat you name it Christian everybody agrees that is a good thing Trump supporter Bidenbacker like we're all happy to help those who are less fortunate and so we do want to say we hope you feel welcome no matter what walk of life you were from we appreciate the guests I know the live chat is sometimes wild and sometimes you're kind of like hey the mods are being too tough on us they won't let me say this or they won't let me say that and we always for one thing we follow YouTube terms of service because if somebody saying something that YouTube would consider they would say it falls under the ground of under the grounds of hate speech something like that where it's picking on a certain race or something we can't allow that both ethically speaking we don't like it but also if we were to and some people are like no be like all be 100% full on free speech let people say anything they want and it's like well like doesn't even make sense it would be thwarting our own purpose because YouTube allows us to grow in fact YouTube markets like YouTube promotes us by showing our debates recommending them YouTube does give us huge promotion a lot of our debates are they get crazy impression numbers and so in other words YouTube is recommending our videos a lot we're thankful for that and so you know we actually do try to follow terms of service because it's just rational but the other thing is we hope that you do enjoy people from all walks of life that you are friends with people who you may disagree with with people who are atheists, christian, muslim you name it as well as different demographics like whether they be straight gay and everything else I would say I would name all the demographics we'd be here all night but I want to say we do appreciate our guests I can't stay here long I've got to run like right now but I want to say we do indeed have some upcoming debates I want to tell you about in particular if you have not seen this one by the way our guests are linked in the description if you want to hear more about their views you certainly can by clicking on those links below what are you waiting for and if you haven't already hit that subscribe button as we have many more juicy debates coming up at the bottom right of your screen for example Vosh versus Dr. Dr. Bogartis from Pepperdine University you don't want to miss this one that's next week we're really excited about I think it's going to be a great discussion even though it's a controversial topic that's true but nonetheless I'm telling you it's going to be a really good one you don't want to miss that also tomorrow though you don't want to miss this one either Theist versus Atheist intelligent design debate intelligent design is starting to pop back up in terms of people being interested in that in terms of debating it so that should be a fun one as well that's tomorrow night you don't want to miss it Amy will be moderating that one I'll be back for the Vosh debate which is on Wednesday and so you guys I love doing this we want to say thanks for all your support you guys really do support this channel a ton you have you have no idea how much it helps like hitting that like button hopes as well for real no joke it does actually boost us in the algorithm and so we really do appreciate all of you guys' support want to say hello to you there in the old live chat as I've got it like I said I've got to run in about eight seconds Pedro HM good to see you Al Solmel good to see you again prisoner X glad you are with us as well as Jeremy Nolan glad you're here Fabula M24 McAfee thanks for being with us as well as John S glad to have you here and plushies DX thanks for dropping in General Balzac good to see you again as well as E-R-O-N is it pronounced Aaron glad you're here Slicer John 189 thanks so much and we'll end with their chat they said take care everyone stay safe and we indeed wish that you will take care and stay safe we'll see you at the next one thanks for your guys' support sorry I got to run I usually like to hang out longer in these post-credits debates scenes but I uh it's just a little bit of a time crunch so love you guys thanks for all of your support we're excited to see you at the next one as we pursue the passion the vision that we have which is to provide a level playing field so that everybody can make their case on a neutral platform that is modern day debate that's our goal that's our vision that's what we're determined to do and we're excited about it so join us as we are only just beginning thanks so much everybody and we'll see you at the next one