 That's why I often say, good teachers are like good cooking. And I know you're a good cook. People will eat it, you will tell you, wow, that was good. I want some more. It tastes good. I feel good. That's what good education is like, too. Welcome back to the Up Close podcast, the home of conversations about the present and future of public education. Today on Up Close, we are very privileged to have with us one of the nation's most influential voices on education, Dr. Pedro Niguera. Dr. Niguera is dean of the USC Rossier School of Education and the author of more than 250 articles about the ways in which schools are influenced by social and economic conditions. He also is an author and co-author of 15 books, including common schooling, conversations about the tough questions and complex issues confronting K-12 education in the United States. He is a regular commentator on CNN, on MSNBC, and NPR. He has editorials that have appeared in The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Wall Street Journal, and many more. And he also has not only been a professor at UCLA and the Harvard Graduate School of Education and NYU. He is the recipient of seven honorary doctorates from American universities. Welcome, Dr. Niguera. Thank you, Sarah. It's great to be with you. Dr. Niguera, we are so honored to have you with us today and on the board of the NEA Foundation, where we share in a commitment to educational justice, equity, excellence, and opportunity. At the Foundation, we're very hopeful as we consider the resources that are being released right now by the US Department of Education and philanthropies around the country to help educators in schools to advance the goals of educational justice and equity. But at the same time, we see that those goals are sometimes or they seem sometimes held up more as lofty ideals while the basis for them and the reasons and the urgency that some feel about that press toward equity isn't equally felt by all, and perhaps even more pervasively, how to operationalize those commitments isn't always clear. But you have studied schools across the country, and you've written extensively about the inequities and the disparities that characterize much of public education in the country. And I've also heard you say that the path to educational excellence is through equity. So could you unpack that a little and share with our audience about what you have observed and how you think about educational equity, excellence, and opportunity, and the path forward for public education? But thank you, Sarah. And thanks for the opportunity to be with you in this podcast. It's been great work with the NEA Foundation, and I'm glad to see you providing this kind of service to the members and others who will listen in about education in the United States is that the inequality in our society shows up in our schools. And the clearest example of that is that more often than not, the backgrounds of kids predict and determine their academic outcomes. For the longest time, we've known the strongest predictor of how well a child will do in school is how much money the family earns, household income. When you combine household income with family education, particularly how much education the mother had, because the mother is usually the first teacher of a child, then you could predict with great consistency how well kids will do. And that should trouble all of us because many of us know there are lots of kids whose parents didn't go to college or kids who grew up poor or working class who have great potential. And so the job of schools is to cultivate that potential in all kids, which means in order for our schools to drive equity in a society that's so unequal, they've got to see the gifts in all children, they've got to cultivate the talents in all children, and they've got to respond to the needs of all children. And as we know, the needs kids bring aren't simply academic, they're social, they're emotional, they have to do it nutrition and health, which makes this work so complicated. So thank you so much, Dr. Neguera. So what then would you say is required if schools are going to be more just and equitable for all students? So we really have to start by asking ourselves, are our schools organized to meet the needs of our kids? I would say many of our schools aren't. What instead, I would say many of our schools don't even start on the assumption that we know what's best for the kids and expect the kids to adapt. So we don't teach kids the way they learn, we expect them to learn the way we teach. Let me explain the difference. Most kids don't learn through direct instruction. If you watch a child who is learning to play a new video game, they don't get a lecture on it first. They go on and play, they learn by doing. They learn through mistakes. They learn by going on YouTube and having that game modeled for them. And ultimately, as they learn, they learn through mastery. So they get better and better with time. In a classroom, if that's the way learning looked, what we would see is kids doing much more experiential learning, working in groups, kids who are not afraid or intimidated about asking questions because we learn through mistakes and kids whose work demonstrates clear evidence of mastery over time, which means that in acknowledgement, they're gonna learn at different places, they're gonna learn in different ways because they're not all the same. And equity acknowledges those differences. I often say any parent of more than one child should already know this because even among our own children, they're not all the same. They have different temperament, different personalities, different needs. As a parent, we are concerned about outcomes for our kids. We wanna see our kids lead happy, fulfilling lives. In schools, we've been focused on one outcome, which is their test scores. And that to me is the problem, part of the problem because when you get fixated on test scores, you overlook all the things that need to happen in order to get better outcomes for kids, like creating a safe learning environment, creating a supportive learning environment, creating an environment where kids can learn with their peers without feeling bullied or intimidated or where their teachers are there to support and guide them. So I think we have to start from scratch again and really think about the conditions for good teaching and learning. And ask, are those two conditions in place in our schools? Dr. Niguera, would you say more about what you see those conditions as? I know you've mentioned just a few just now. Yeah, so I often think of teaching as I use the analogy of teaching in gardening. I'm a gardener, I like to garden. I know that if I have fertilizer, if I have good topsoil, water, sun, that my vegetables will do well. When they don't do well, I don't blame the vegetables, right? I don't blame the tomato. I must have done something wrong, none of water, too much water, none of sun. I try to get the conditions right. Same as true in the classroom. When we see that some kids are making progress and others are not, we have to ask ourselves, is that child getting the support they need to learn? What's missing? It might be they're not getting enough support at home. What many people don't acknowledge is homework is an equity issue. Some parents have time to help their kids and have the education to help their kids. Some kids don't even have a place to get the homework done. How is that equitable to treat them all the same when we know they don't live under the similar circumstances? So when we see our children and know them as people, not in terms of their stereotypes, their race or their test scores, then we're in a better position to know what does it take to get those children motivated and excited about learning? How do I create a safe learning community where kids are free to ask questions and learn together? And how do I create an environment where they're stimulated and challenged so they'll want to learn? The evidence that we're doing it right is when kids tell us they are excited about learning. They want more. I asked why I often say good teachers are a lot like good cooking. I know you're a good cook. This thing will eat you, it will tell you. Wow, that was good. I want some more. In case you're gonna feel good, that's what good educations like to. Let me push you on that just a little bit though. I mean, yes, you talked about some of the inequities that happen outside that influence what happens in the school, but what about the school itself in terms of what kind of a welcoming environment it is creating for kids? I know you've written a lot about, especially how the environment has influenced black boys in schools, but beyond that as well. Can you say a little bit about that? Yeah, we've known for many years that the culture of a school has a profound impact on things like teacher morale. Do teachers feel supported? Do they feel encouraged? Do they feel as though the leadership is behind them? But the culture also tells kids, is it cool to be smart? Is this a place where I try hard? Is this a place where I feel respected and supported and safe? The culture of our school is ultimately what distinguishes the best schools from the others. And by best, I don't mean those that have every kid getting into an Ivy League school. I mean best in terms of bringing the best out of kids, bring cultivating that desire to learn. Here's the challenge. Every school has a culture. Some schools have a dysfunctional culture. They might be adult-centered. They may not be safe. They may be places where adults don't collaborate or where there are strains between the teachers and the parents or among the kids. That's not an environment that's conducive to good teaching and learning. And so what we have to do is work to create school cultures that are positive, that are student-centered, where order and discipline prevail not because of security, but because of the quality of relationships between the adults and children and amongst the children themselves. Cultures can't be imposed on schools. Cultures develop organically through the relationships amongst the teachers, students and staff. And so that's the reason why developing a strong positive culture is such a challenge for so many schools. So I can't help but ask you then where you might have seen exemplars of this. And also I know that you are proponent in particular of community schools as one place where the strategy of social and emotional learning and experiential learning and bringing supports and resources into a school is understood as essential, but somewhat about community schools and then beyond, where do you see the most promise? Yeah, as you said, there are schools that are committed to a more holistic vision. We're calling these community schools because they have the resources to address the social needs of kids, the psychological needs. They have social workers on site. They have afterschool and preschool programs. They're also working with parents so that parents get support. And when you can bring that all together, then it's not all on the teacher. Teacher can't be expected to be a psychologist, a social worker, a surrogate parent. That's what leads to burnout and it's unfair and unrealistic. So the community school model is one that many schools and districts are trying to embrace, but it's helpful to know what it looks like when it's done well. So I'll give you an example of a school I know well here in Los Angeles, Social Justice Humanitas High School. It's located on the Cesar Chavez campus in a very poor community in Pocoima, which is in northern part of LA and the 100% of the kids are low income, 100% Latino, many undocumented. It's the kind of school which you just look at the demographics would be a failing school because typically schools with those demographics are failing, high dropout rates, low test scores. This school has the fourth highest graduation rate in all of Los Angeles. It is a community school. They start the school three days early all focused on getting working on relationships among the students and between the students and the teachers because they know that the quality of the relationships will influence the quality of the teaching and learning and the outcomes of kids. Now I asked the principal, how do you get kids to come in three days ahead before school starts? He said, we just tell them to come and they show up. So it's not as hard as it might seem. They haven't had a fight in over seven years at this school even though it's in a neighborhood surrounded by gangs. Why? Because they know the kids and they make sure the kids feel safe while they're there. I was visiting a few years ago and I talked, the principal was giving me a tour of the school and I thought for sure they must be just showing me the good parts. I said, I like to talk to a group of kids. He said, well, we got a group in the library. Why don't we go inside? So I mean, the kids in there telling about the things they like I'm so proud of the large number of kids because over 90% of these kids go on to colleges and they got their pictures up on the walls and the colleges they attend. And I asked the question. I said, how often are you inspired by what you learn at school? Several kids shot up their hands and said, we're inspired every day. I said, I don't believe you. I said, what did you learn yesterday? The girl said, yesterday we learned about the forced sterilization of women that was occurring in this country in the 1930s and 20s under eugenics. We started learning about it in biology. Then we learned about some more in social studies. We learned who was behind it, where it was happening. So I was so disturbed by what I learned. I went home and told my parents about it. And then we went online and studied some more. And I thought to myself, what's the sign of good education? Kids want more education. They're going back and talking about it with their parents and their siblings. So when you see a school like this, you know that it's really not about the money. Money always helps. But this is not a school with a lot of resources. And it certainly is not a school that's serving affluent kids. These are low income poor kids. But it's a school that serves them well because they know them and they know how to provide the support they need so those kids can be successful. You know, I'm not so old, Dr. Neguera, that I don't recall Dr. Marva Collins and her teaching about that. So many others through the years, as you have said, not such a difficult set of principles and practices and understandings and the importance of relationship and so forth. So why don't we see this kind of approach more across the country? What are the impediments? Part of it is that there are a lot of educators who've never seen a school like the one I just described. What they're more accustomed to is what we see throughout America. Wherever poor kids are concentrated, we often see schools fail. Think about all the state takeovers of school districts. All of those are in low income communities, often black and Latino communities. You know, in California, the state has still, it's still in control of Inglewood schools. It was in control of Compton schools. Did the state help those schools get better? No, but it was under control. And I think that if you're an educator who works in a district like that, you don't know, you don't have a sense of what's possible. I had the experience a few years ago of being asked to visit Tuscaloosa, Alabama. Tuscaloosa is home to the Great Crimson Pride University of Alabama, great football team, not great schools. In a college town, totally segregated district or black, visit Bear Bryant High School, named after the great football coach. And I'm asked to speak to the teachers there. And many of them are kind of, I could just tell cynical about hearing from me, a college professor coming to visit. And I asked them, I said, how many of you have ever been to a school where you've seen black children excelling? No one raised their hand. I said, you've never seen it. They said, we've never seen it. I said, then I bet you don't believe it can be done, do you? Several said, yeah, we don't believe it can be done. I said, well, I challenge you. I challenge you to come with me. I could take you to school and schools in New York City that I know and work with that you can see this happening. They sent eight teachers up to New York that fall. And I took them to Medgar Evers High School in Brooklyn, school that's 100% black, where 100% of the kids graduate, over 95% go to college. Some of the best colleges in the country. They were blown away by the kids and by what they saw because they had never seen black children excelling in this way. My point is that if you've ever seen it, after a while you start to believe the problem is the kids, right? And that unless you can do something about those kids, nothing can change. What these teachers got to see is, no, it's not about changing the kids. It's about changing the way we treat the kids, changing the way we provide support and simulation to kids so that all kids have the opportunity to learn. And yet not everyone is going to have that opportunity to take that trip and have their eyes open. So what else can be done to promote this kind of change systemically? You know, the mindsets, the capacities, the approach. What do you see as the opportunities for broad change? You know, this is where the problem gets political because ideally state departments of education should do what I was doing for those teachers in Tuscaloosa. They're the ones that should be exposing these teachers to best practices, to successful schools because you're right, not everybody has that chance. But there's not a single state in the country that knows how to support schools. I want you to think about that for a moment. Can you name a single state that is shown that it has the ability to take schools that are low performing and provide support to help them become high performing? Not one. And I've worked in many of them, all around this country. And that's because most state departments of education focus on compliance. Are you in compliance with state and federal mandates and how to spend money? They don't know how to help schools address really basic things, like how do we teach kids to read? How do we get parents involved? How do we get better outcomes in math, et cetera? So some of the problem is political. I often used to blame no child behind because it had us focused on the wrong thing, the student test scores. But now with ESSA, we are freed up from some of that. But many states are still really directing schools to be judged by test scores. My hope is that under the Biden administration, we'll start to see more creative approaches being promoted from the federal government so that states will realize we don't have to keep doing things the wrong way. We can trust educators to do a better job at meeting the needs of kids and make sure that good education becomes more widely available. And I love what you've just said. Trust educators because what we know is amid all of those constraints, there are millions of educators across this country who are bringing their very best to children every day. And yet it's those same educators as around the country who now are dealing with these polarizing political forces such as all the energy that's been generated around masking and CRT and so forth. And school very much being mired in those issues. A lot will say that this is making the teaching practice somewhat impossible and we see teachers leaving the workforce very, very sadly. Our frontline teachers. Where do you find hope amid all of those struggles given the ideals that you put forward? I find hope in the teachers, in the students, in the parents who despite the political distractions, despite the obstacles that many states have created, I'm thinking of the don't say gay law now in Florida as yet another example of bad policy. There are kids showing up every day who still have dreams and hopes of using education to improve their lives. There are still teachers who are in this work not because of the money, but because they wanna make a difference and they understand the power of education to make a difference in the lives of children and their parents who sacrifice to make sure that children get a good education. So that gives me a source of hope for the future. And I have more hope and more faith in the educators and the kids and parents than in the politicians by any means. Ultimately it's the kids that'll be the key to our future not the politicians. So that then speaks to the power also potentially in family school and community partnership. And this is something about which we also are passionate and want to see much more of. And what would you suggest with respect to how states and local education administrations might embrace those practices more? You know, I can't say it enough. You can't really make a change without the parents and community behind you. Parents influence over 50% of student outcomes. Parent education drives outcomes, but you don't have to have a great deal of education to influence your kids. That's right. I might need to have my parents graduate from high school and they might send all six of us to college, some of the top college in the country. What parents need is to make, schools have to build a partnership with parents. So there's reinforcement for learning at home. Now, again, you don't need a state mandate saying to do that. What you do need is guidance on how to do that in communities where there's diversity, community where parents speak different languages, where parents are working and busy and don't have time to show up at your school at three o'clock in the afternoon because they're working. So we have to be creative about how we engage community, how we engage parents. But when that comes together, it's very powerful and it can even compensate for the effects of poverty and inequity in our society. And I, wouldn't you say that we've seen that demonstrated abundantly during the pandemic when we really had to rely on parent leadership to move kids' education forward in partnership with the teacher? What would you say, along with that, have been some of the things that we also have seen in the pandemic that we've learned through the pandemic that we can bring now to the furtherance of public education to improve public education? So that's a great question. I've thought a lot about, you know, the pandemic was so disruptive, difficult on many people, especially those who had to work as essential workers during this period of COVID at much higher rates, et cetera. It was also an opportunity to disrupt the status quo and not go back to the same things, same strategies that weren't working before. So we have to use this as a moment to create schools that are more responsive to student needs, create schools that are more supportive of our teachers and really do the work we knew during the pandemic. If parents weren't involved at home, kids didn't even get it on Zoom, right? If kids, if households didn't have access to the internet, the kids couldn't get on Zoom. So figure out how do we work together? How do other communities step up to make sure kids have access to good learning opportunities? Virtual learning will be a part of the learning landscape for years to come now. We know it works in many communities, especially if we have devices and good internet at home. But we also know there are a lot of kids who need the human contact from a teacher, especially little kids who are learning. And so we need to make sure that our schools are organized to respond effectively to the needs of their community in all its forms. And that's where leadership comes in and having good leaders who have a vision for how to do that and not to be distracted by the politics is really key. And we have some tremendous opportunities ahead of us. We have a tremendous amount of money now in ARPA and through the Omnibus Appropriations Bill, having just been recently passed that we can now use to promote some innovation and adoption of some of these practices that you've talked about. As you consider that and you know that across the country, SEAs and LEAs, excuse me, State Education Administrations and local administrations are planning for the use of these funds. What are some of your recommendations about high priorities? So great question because we are at an unusual point. When have we ever been able to say in education where money is not a problem? Well, in many places right now that's the case. There's in fact more money than some districts know how to spend. So what concerns me now is making sure that we spend it wisely on things and then our strategies that will be sustainable after the money has dried up. We know right now to address the learning loss that's real, tutors make a huge difference. That one-on-one attention. Now, the question there is do you have well-trained tutors who can provide that support to kids? But that to me is an investment that makes a huge difference. We know that music, sports, theater, all enhance learning for kids. The research is very clear. Kids who involve in music, sports, theater, write for the newspaper, do better than kids who don't. Why? Because they're developing other habits, more discipline, teamwork through those activities and the love of learning often that comes from that involvement. So this is a chance to find ways to take a more holistic approach to education, to get kids more engaged deeply in school so they want to be at school and school is not a chore and not an alienating experience. Thanks so much for that. And Dr. Niguera, I want to ask you somewhat of this bit of a left turn, but I can't resist. As you think about it, whose responsibility is public education? It's all of ours. It's at the entire society. And I think we lose sight of that. We like to blame the secretary of education or blame the president or governor or the teachers. And blame is not a strategy for improvement. If you look at countries that are doing better than, and we don't have to look far, go to Canada. You see a country does much better than us. I spent a lot of time in Canada where speaking more than one language is common, right? Because they don't wait until kids that enter middle or high school to teach the second language they started in kindergarten. But it's also a place where you see resources going to schools because if a school is struggling, they don't threaten the school. They don't just pressure the school. They find ways to help. They see a school struggling in math. They send coaches who know math to the school to work with those teachers. They build the capacity of schools. There's a lot we could learn. I often say that highest performing urban district in North America is Toronto. How many Americans know that? How many Americans know for the last 20 years Toronto has made steady improvements so it's a world-class educational system not because of threats and gimmicks but because they focused on building the capacity of the educators and the schools when the skills of the educators are aligned to meet the needs of kids, outcomes improve. That's the work we should be committed to in this country. Absolutely. We certainly have that perspective and not only do outcomes improve but very, very importantly children's experiences of education and their love of learning improves and that really is the beginning and end of it all for us. Wow, this time is really, really rich, Dr. Nigera. I think that so much of what you have said is so consistent with certainly the views of the NDA Foundation but I think that when we also think about why some of these ideals aren't realized a lot of it has to do with whose voice is privileged in the shaping of public education and certainly know that when educators, leadership, when they're shared learning, when they're collaboration, when their innovation is supported in particular we see more energy in the school, we see the educators' enthusiasm for their ideas being put into practice really flows to the kids and they get excited as well. How can we ensure that educators' voices are brought more into the leadership in the shaping of public education? You know, so this is, I'm glad in U.S. with the NDA Foundation is asking that question because I think our teacher unions, NEA, AFT have to be heard, they have to be advocates for not just for teachers but for the education generally. Education, if you think about it, should be a non-partisan issue. It shouldn't matter who the president is or who the governor is, kids have a right to a good education regardless of the political agenda. That's not the case now. It does make a big difference who's in leadership. I might be naivir because I know politics well enough to know how difficult it is to get state legislatures to do the right thing but I have to think that when we use the organizations that represent us to clearly articulate what's important, it can make a difference. Thank you so much. And at the same time, we have just affirmed that family, school and community partnership, whole community engagement in schools can also make a difference to come alongside and to support the commitments of LEAs and SEAs that are trying to improve educational outcomes. So if we think about that there are millions of people across this country who would like to see public education be all that it can be who want to see justice and equity brought to public education and they're looking for a role that they can play. Maybe they're a parent, but maybe they're just someone in community that cares about what is happening through our schools. What would you suggest can be done that those folks can understand? Yes, there is a role for you to play in public education. Well, I think it's very important to try to get involved. Get involved locally to make sure that teachers get the support they need, our schools get the support they need. If you have the time, you're a retired person and you have the time, volunteer to tutor, to work with kids who need that one-on-one attention. But also we need people to get about the state level to make sure that the states don't adopt laws that make the job of education more difficult. We've seen several states already pass some very reactionary policies, trying to silence our history so kids don't learn about our history, they're trying to, again, pass laws that make it difficult for people who are gay or transgendered for their rights to be respected. So we've got to be involved at that level as well to make sure that the voices of a few don't dominate the direction of education, which is, I think, happening in many places right now. Yes, the voices of a few dominating. Yes, in public education. Dajin Aguirre, I would like to, we're nearing the close of our time together, just that you have been so generous with us to share your ideas and your observations. I would like just for fun to ask you a little bit about your story and your best experience in education and why it made, why was it your best experience? So I could tell many, but I'll just start early on. As I mentioned, neither of my parents graduated from high school or college, but they believed in education. They believed it so much that on Saturdays, after we did our chores, and we always had to do chores first, they would send us to the library, which was not far away. And fortunately for us, there was a librarian there, Ms. McDonald, who took interest in each one of us to find out what we liked. And when I was in third grade, Ms. McDonald introduced me to a wrinkle in time. Oh, no. I would have never read on my own. And I liked Ms. McDonald, I trusted her, she said, you liked this book. Well, I did. And a week later, I was back and asking for more. And at the age of eight, I became an avid reader. When you become an avid reader at a young age, you get to control your education. Because now you're in a position to learn the things, whether it's being offered or not, you can learn on your own. My father always taught us, you get a free education with a library card and he practiced it. And so think about what would have happened during the pandemic if kids were reading. Even if they didn't have access to the computer, they were reading books. We'd be in a very different place in this country. We'd be in a different place in terms of voting because people wouldn't be as easily manipulated by social media because they would understand what's a reliable source, what's fake news. So a lot of what we need is really basic. The ability of kids to read, think critically, do research, they have more control over their lives. And in closing, Dr. Nagara, I ask everyone, lastly, if you could make two to three recommendations that policymakers would take to heart and implement to see incredible change in public education, what would those be? I would say focus on conditions in schools. We know that there are five essential conditions that have to be placed for schools to be to experience improvement over sustained time. They need a coherent curriculum. They need teacher collaboration. They need parent involvement. They need positive school culture and they need leadership with vision. But we also, and that should really be the basis for state education policy, I think. I think beyond that, we need to make sure that the resources get to schools so that they have the ability to implement that vision. And then we need politicians to get out of the way and not make the job more difficult. Dr. Nagara, our time with you is precious, very, very precious. Thank you so, so much for being with us today on the Up Close podcast. We hope that maybe you'll return someday and we can talk some more. Thanks for having me, Sarah. It's been a pleasure. Thanks. Thank you for tuning in to Up Close with Sarah Snead. I hope you enjoyed our conversation with Dr. Pedro Nagara. 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