 This week on the anxious truth. We are talking about how two very different paths can lead to the very same anxiety destination I have special guest Jen Kirkman on the podcast. So let's go Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the anxious truth. This is podcast number 198198 we are recording at the end of February 2022 if you are new to the podcast, I am Drew lince a lot a creator and host of the anxious truth This is the podcast that focuses on all things anxiety and anxiety recovery So if you're struggling with things like panic attacks or panic disorder or go or phobia OCD social anxiety health anxiety This is the place to be I'm glad you're here. And of course if you are a returning listener or viewer on YouTube Hey, YouTube welcome back. I'm glad you're here as always today We're gonna have a really interesting conversation about how people from very different backgrounds with different mindsets and different Emotional and thinking styles can wind up in the exact same place with the same exact anxiety disorders We're gonna have that conversation with my friend Jen Kirkman. I guess she's my friend We just met last week, but we've done two podcasts together. So now yeah, we're bffs now So Jen if you don't know her which I bet a lot of you do is got a tremendous life going on She is a stand-up comic. She is an author. She is a TV writer. She is a performer. She is a podcaster She's been all over the place. So there's a good chance. You know Jen Kirkman already But if you don't you're gonna get to know her today She's really great and she's gonna talk about her anxiety journey and she's gonna laugh when she hears that because we Kind of both don't want to use the word journey anymore We're gonna talk about where she was and how she got into her anxiety situation and kind of compare it to me because we cannot have been Any different but we wound up in the same place and what does that tell us? So we're gonna talk to Jen about that she's gonna talk about how she got better and what her life looks like now It's a really great conversation So let's get to it in a minute before we do and I will give you all the details by the way And where to find Jen and her podcast because she has a great podcast called anxiety bites I'll have that at the end in the details there But yeah before we do I just want to remind you that the anxious truth is more than just this podcast episode There's a whole lot more. There's three books and anxiety and anxiety recovery There's seven years worth of other podcast episodes There's a ton of social media stuff and there is my morning newsletter email newsletter and podcast called the anxious morning You can find all of that on my website at the anxious truth comm go avail yourself of all the resources. I implore you They're all there Most everything is free the books are even very inexpensive and they're great books And if you have them already and you're digging them, maybe write me some reviews on Amazon So yeah, check out all the stuff I have to offer on my website at the anxious truth comm So that little bit of housekeeping aside and bill paying aside. Let's get on with the interview with Jen I'll be back at the end to wrap it up and give you all of her details and all the links and all the good stuff So let's get to it. You're gonna dig it. Alrighty Jen Kirkman. Welcome to the podcast It's truly an honor to be here drew. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate you taking the time I'm you have got to be just jam-packed every day Cuz I have like a normal of a writing job, but it's like a normal like go to work and be there all day So you got me on a work from home day So this is great. You know how it is. It's like my life isn't busy But when you can't like leave somewhere for eight hours a day That's all the field is year because you're doing stuff before and after work, but very much So what I want to talk about today and for those of you who you know I mentioned in the intro and at the end of the episode I'm gonna give you all Jen's links and everything over to her podcast, which is called anxiety bites Which is such a good name. I don't know how come I didn't think of that But that's a great name. You know as a gen X or you've got to appreciate it That it's a nod to the movie reality bites 100% so yeah, which leads us into today's topic So for those of you who do not know Jen And Jen give us like the readers digest version of like tell us your anxiety journey because you know You haven't told it already a hundred thousand times, but but for fun I've gone into something smaller and by the way, you just said the word journey and And then you're like I do it all the time too Yeah, basically had panic attacks since I was I don't know probably eight years old was the first one I remember it had to do being on an airplane So that was mainly, you know my first foray was a fear flying and The panic attacks happened on airplanes and then they started happening in other places Basically anything associated with travel or feeling trapped Maybe if I was in the backseat of my parents car on the way to grandma's and we were stuck in Traffic on the highway, you know, then it started happening in Tall buildings or not even buildings that were tall, but certain classrooms in my high school where Just the angle of where I was sitting I would look out the window and I wouldn't be able to see the ground and honestly only two stories up You know, I probably could have fallen out the window and survived it But I felt like I was high up and it just kept going and going from there and I had probably generalized anxiety disorder I'm sure I had a lot of Behaviors that I look back on now that oh that seems like ADHD and that seems, you know Like a little bit of depression mixed in and but my main things that kept me from living I think the life I wanted to live and was meant to live were that Were the fear flying the panic attacks? Never had a goer phobia But certainly could have kept going if things had kept going that way lots of fears of transportation Subways driving on freeways all that kind of thing and so it just got to a point where I decided I'll just live a small life and won't go anywhere ever But obviously something inside of me was against that so I did end up Getting help and the help worked enough that it got me into Sort of my own version of exposure therapy, which was not doing it with therapists But just having to do certain things and white knuckling it until I got used to it and on and on so I don't know that started age eight and forty seven now and still Still learning but all of I can honestly say the huge huge huge panic attacks and panicking while traveling is really Behind me in that it only happens sometimes and when it does it's fine. Yeah, that's great And clearly I mean I think for people listening you're in New York right now But clearly you're kind of living that to coast lifestyle giving the industry that you're in and you're traveling a lot and or maybe not for the last Two years, but normally yeah So it just goes to show you like I'm sure that your panic attacks You would have I'm sure you would have described them as severe as anybody would describe their panic attacks Everybody has the worst ones ever we know that yeah, but yeah, here you are the thing that I dig about this And I certainly don't dig that you have this problem, of course I'm happy that you're better which is great But when I was on your podcast you talked about the way you kind of got into this So it starts with a fear of flying or panic attack on an airplane Then you're afraid of heights and you're afraid of this and you're afraid of that And you described yourself in a very specific way and you know a particular band came up that I'm not gonna pick on You know, I want you but I won't You know I did I'm gonna let it go But so what fascinates me about this is that we wound up in a very similar place And when you talk about now, I became agoraphobic But dry anxiety driving on the highway getting too far from home like traveling all of those things So many people listening are gonna relate to that But you got there coming from a very different place than I did yet we wound up in exactly the same place So talk about that a little bit like you described yourself as a certain way You were you know, you were quite I think you were a bit emotional and you were in touch with that sort of stuff and Yeah, I mean I was a very dramatic Kid and teenager I would say, you know the drama probably ramped up in my teenage years So it's always hard to go back and go what was teenage hormones and perspective and what was anxiety and depression but Definitely definitely when I was a little kid. I did have a flair for the drama but more in the fun way But then as I got to be a teenager, you know, I'm like listening to the Smiths and the cure and and honestly I will just side note about the Smiths and more He actually has an amazing sense of humor now what I like about that music is he's very sardonic and dark humor and You know, I took it very literally when I was younger, you know In terms of I think more deeply than anyone else and I need to get out of this town And you know, I want to wear all black and smoke cigarettes, you know, I wasn't a drug or drinking person I wasn't a sports person. I was just you know, there's a literary kind of drama theater nerd and not even nerd that that's like a totally different thing but like theater kid and I hung out with the group of kids that the adults in town nicknamed us the freaks and It was just it was just because we wore all black and what was so funny is our hangout was the center of town So how bad could we be if we were just standing in the center of town for everyone to see? But you know, we wore our Doc Martens and all that kind of stuff and you know, but I remember just You know, honestly, I'm going to say this was a facet of the depression where if you're feeling different than other people For me, I know that part of my story was well, then I'm going to make it that I'm better than everyone else You know, I can't just feel different and go what the heck is this? I have to be better than everyone else So I feel different. I feel sad, you know, everyone's kind of obsessed with boys I mean, I have my crushes, but I don't know and So I turned it into I'm too deep of a thinker to care about what teenagers care about I'm busy thinking about death and so that's I would go to the cemetery and You know ride my bike listening to my Walkman With my depressing music and my all-black and I'd sit on the gravestones and write in my journal And I'd write things that like all these people had these lives and nobody notices that they drive by in their cars And they don't care And my friends are obsessed with dating and you know, I mean all it was was a kid going How come I'm not interested in normal things or why am I too afraid to put myself out there and ask a boy out? Or you know, whatever and as much as I had that side also was like really fun and and was in like a punk rock band You know, I was I was I was pretty cool, but I had this door. I still are I think I was cooler than I've got to be totally honest. I'm not in a punk band now but but looking back on it, it's like That was me very fixated on death and it was totally from a fear of death but I wonder if I was trying to You know move into any kind of acceptance in my own disordered way But definitely thought about death a lot and was very convinced that I wouldn't live very long Not because I was so reckless and driving my car fast like James Dean, but that I was That feeling I would get those panic attacks. I wasn't sure what they were and To me they just felt like impending death and so I thought well This must be something and I bet whatever this is. I'm kind of getting the signal from the universe here I'm not gonna be around that long. So yeah, and so your interpretation was this is clearly an omen that I'm you know My time here short. It would be yes. It was an omen. It wasn't quite like You know, I know you've described in your book that it was really feeling like what it must feel like to be About to die. We're like right before you see the light and so I'd have that experience so many times I started to Interpret it as kind of an omen. That's a great way to put it. Yeah, what's interesting about that is and we come from I mean, we could not have been more different. So you were you were Ali Sheedy in the breakfast breakfast No, everyone says that but I never related to her because she was weird and antisocial and I was Loud and bombastic and and did like the school musical and was kind of a goody two shoes Like I would never have been in detention. Yeah I was a combination of Brenda Walsh from 90210 and Winona Ryder from Beetlejuice It was exactly that like I had a morbid streak But I was at the end of the day just kind of a dramatic person who just wanted to like smoke cigarettes and like low key rebel You know Rebel but but low key and keep it. Yeah, so that's cool. All right Hey, I can appreciate that But what I find interesting about this is so many people wind up in the situation that you and I both wind up with panic I'm gonna assume panic disorder who knows if there was some sort of diagnosis or not But with this crippling anxiety problem and they bring into that almost a fear of their emotions Like it's just too much. I shouldn't ever feel anything but it sounds like you were Like almost like come on bring on more this and I need to revel in my emotions Is that where you kind of came from like they represent who I am man? This is yeah, you know, I'm a dark person I think deeply like you really you put so much weight into what you thought I'm gonna say Wow, this is brilliant analysis. Yes, I never really had these words said exactly this way So I did have an official diagnosis of panic disorder, but until I was 22, but yeah, you know It was like these feelings were easy for me to handle weirdly the depressed feelings. They almost um Calm me and then in a weird way felt brave. Look at me thinking about this stuff But if I was to have a panic attack guess who would not be so into death anymore Yeah, and so it was sort of a way yet a kind of control or Like you said revel in it feel something But yeah, it was absolutely that I was definitely curious about death like gee What are these panic attacks didn't know what they were called? What are these feelings? I'm having am I okay and then instead of like why I didn't have any resources I don't know how I would have investigated but like for example, there's a There's a class I went to like 20 years ago When I first moved to Los Angeles because I had such a fear of death that it was overwhelming me And there was this little meditation place and they taught this kind of I think it's a Buddhist meditation about death And you meditate and think about your own death and you try to slow your breath and your heart rate down Really slowly and you try to imagine every breath is your last which sounds really scary But if I'm thinking about death every five minutes anyway I might as well do it in a constructive way that actually calms me down and might even help me accept that Yes, this will happen someday and honestly, I don't need to think about it too much in advance because We're kind of wasting my life. So back to me in the cemetery I wonder if I was doing some early version of like, let me try to go down this rabbit hole just to see How far I can go if I can come to any kind of peace with it I mean, I was not aware I was doing that but looking back on it Maybe But the interesting thing about that is you run toward your thoughts like you are running toward them I want to think I want to think deeply does that put you in a position. So now you start to have panic attacks Yeah, and you know many many people this always fascinates me If we ever you know what if we can crack why this happens then we're gonna be just swimming to money Who knows but I'm totally so many human beings have panic attacks even more than one throughout their lives without ever developing an anxiety disorder For whatever reason they just see them as really unpleasant events and that happen and then in between They don't even think about them, but for people like you and me that didn't happen So the reason why you don't drive on the highway is you're start to be afraid to drive on the highway because you're gonna panic And I'm gonna panic in the plane. I'm gonna panic in the on the second floor of the building or whatever it is Did you find that being so glued to your thoughts made it difficult because in the end It's like well just cuz I think I'm in danger doesn't mean I am you have to turn your back on your thinking process So you were so glued to your thinking process. Was that a struggle for you? Yeah, and and like you said, you know when I'm sitting there and thinking about death all the time and You know, I have no idea. I'm glued to my thoughts, you know And I wouldn't have even known there was another way to be in your head And so what I'm doing when I'm doing that back then is I'm obsessing Even if I think I feel calm, you know, I'm not panicking in those moments, but I'm obsessing so much I'm creating that neuro pathway or something to It's almost like I'm eating so much sugar Meeting so much sugar so much sugar and then I get you know early onset diabetes or something I was setting the table for any future panic attack by Worrying about this obsessing about this and teaching myself to believe my thoughts and getting almost an emotional high From believing my thoughts. I mean, you know, and so then now when I'm panicking. Oh, well, I've done all this Exercise that makes me, you know really strong in this area. Here I go. I'm panicking you're dying. Yep I believe that thought because that's what I do. I believe my thoughts. I practice it all the time and Yep, I'm sitting there practicing a fear of death. So immediately my panic attacks are going to go some people might think oh I'm going to faint. I'm going to be embarrassed And I go straight to oh no, I'm about to cross over into the great unknown or just dropped it Yeah, I and so it was a struggle when I learned, you know I always say people with anxiety want to control everything except the one thing they can control Which is their thoughts like oh, well, that's not I want to do that I want to control people in the world and my mortality. So when I learned I could control my thoughts. I was very Like oh, I don't think I could I have it too bad Oh, I and now when I look back on that that's sort of a defiance like don't take my thoughts for me That's my safety, you know, so it gets all mixed up. No, this is such a good conversation when you said I was Practicing believing my thoughts and like believing your thoughts and delving into them become part of your identity And then it puts you're right You were a hundred percent setting the table what I'm finding fascinating about the difference between you and I were pretty close in Age so we get the same references. We grew up around the same time. I was the exact opposite I never I never gave my thoughts a second. I was never anxious about anything I didn't sit in graveyards and contemplate the mysteries of the universe Whatever like but that's okay. You were your way and I was no better or worse here Yeah, the same place. So for me it was Why am I so tied to these thoughts? It was a completely foreign experience just like for you Oh wait, I don't I don't have to answer my thoughts was foreign for me The idea that I was answering them and engaging with them and like getting caught with them That was completely like like a colorblind person seeing for the first time colors Yeah, no reference frame of that. So yeah, yeah So the struggle was completely the opposite for me We come from two completely different sort of mindsets, but wound up in exactly the same place Which I think tells you there's no discrimination here in the end. Absolutely not and there's no I was gonna say like yeah, there's no discrimination, but there's no like preset Correct. No, like if someone is a 12 year old right now, and they're like, oh, they're doing this or they're doing that That means they will or won't have panic attacks. It's just no way to tell how you respond to the first one you have I guess interested in Why the first ones happen as much as some therapists want to go into the childhood this and that it's like That's great, but I need to know how to stop this right now Yeah, I think I call it stopping the bleeding like if you show up in the emergency room The very first thing to do to stop the bleeding and then we're gonna look at what's wrong So I would agree but I you know, I'll speak to that a little bit because I'm I'm kind of vocally not root cause guy I'm not saying there isn't there might be there might not be but I was exactly the same way I people ask me all the time. Well, what was the trigger? I still don't know what the trigger is I might never know I could have ideas I could guess at it a little bit but in the end to people from completely different like emotional states and mental states I ended up in exactly the same place So tell me again why everybody has to dig for a cause because we could not have been any different yet We wind up with the same disorder and actually come out of it the same way So I'm not I didn't invite you on to prove that there's no root cause But I think it really does illustrate experiences vary so widely But in the end the mechanism of recovery turns out to be common even across two people that don't have much In common probably in terms of our thinking style and our emotional style Well, it's interesting too because I did when I first first first went to therapy for this panic I did very cognitive behavioral based therapy, but then I moved out of the city I was living in and I didn't know I was doing CBT, so I just knew I'm doing therapy I don't know so then I move away and don't do therapy for a year and You know tools are getting rusty let me brush up and I go to a new therapist in new city And she's very what's the cause she kept asking what is the thought you have before you panic? I said I could not tell you if you pay people to carry this journal Why are you in denial and it was like look lady eventually? I just lied I thought this you know so that would make sense to her so we could just move on to get to the What do I do about it? And I did ten years of root cause and it didn't change anything and then I did on my own and And and brought it to the therapist that I was so it was like I need to do like Workbook textbook stuff, you know and and so anyway my point is and yes root cause for where did I learn? You know anxious thoughts or where did I learn kind of catastrophize and like yes your my parents did it But that doesn't mean I was going to have Panic attacks, you know it means that later on when I had more time Because I wasn't panicking every second and I went how come I look at this so negatively Oh, I learned that from my parents. They did the best they could but I think I heard stuff like this around the house Oh, I'm just gonna when now. What do I really think? Oh, let me change my thinking that to me has zero to do With helping me in a physical moment of panic It is two separate things and you know if you never get the chance to work on Where this and that came from you'll still get the recovery if you do the things you're supposed to do for Overcoming you know ruminations and physical feelings. It's that difference between and you know emotions can cause reactions And that's fine and some things we have to work on those things. There's a wrong with that Yeah, but at the same time it really does become the difference between I'm anxious or I'm afraid or feel I'm Remembering things that are traumatic for me or painful for me and I'm afraid of feeling that that's the difference Anybody who listens to this podcast is heard me say that a 10,000 times You're just such a good to me the two of us are and really good illustration of how I don't know how that hell That happens, but you two people who wind up in exactly the same place coming from totally different directions in a way Except that you know, we both probably watch the same TV shows But we probably as I'm thinking about it more with all that's going on in the world I'm thinking of nuclear war movies from the 80s We probably day after and those yeah, like and there was some scary shit That's true during that time. We were under the nuclear threat all the time, which is odd to be talking about that today Yeah, I think that's true yet I kind of like some people would have said well I was you know, they they probably look at me like well, what were you dead? Were you a robot? Well, maybe in a little bit I was a little bit armor-plated for a long time and then I wasn't you know Like I couldn't figure out why I wasn't armor-plated, but you know what and I can I've said this many many times from my listeners Know this I'm happy. I'm not armor-plated anymore like being coated in titanium and never getting anxious was not a natural state to be it So yes, if the way you were and maybe the way you've come out on the other side and that evolution What's different now like did you do you want to be sitting on a gravestone and black smoking cigarettes anymore? Or is it better to have this mix of yeah, this this process. What did this process teach you? You know, how do you think you're better today than you were then because of it? Yeah, it's interesting like sitting in this cemetery wearing all black and smoking is as much of a defense as I don't have any feelings, right? It was like and Yeah, there was a while when I just I never tried to but I looked at other people that didn't seem anxious and Who didn't seem to have any reactions to things in life and I just really Longed to be one of them. Why couldn't I've come out that way and now I realize I don't want that either It's sort of like now I can handle feeling my feelings or Feeling scared and I don't like it, but there's such a difference between I don't like this too. I'm dying This is killing me. This is dangerous. Yeah, and so, you know What I the biggest greatest visual or it's not visual, but whatever a concrete example I can give is now when I get on an airplane I Don't like turbulence. It makes me kind of queasy. Sometimes I throw up, you know, it but it just bothers me I like to work and write on planes and the coffee's shaking and it's just more annoying than anything And sometimes it you know, it doesn't scare me like oh, I'm going to die, but it does get my nervous system a little rattled I think our body is like hey, what's happening? And so I never feel great After I get off a bumpy flight, but none of that is terror and going I'm dying it's more like now I get to have all the inconveniences that normal people do, you know Nothing is an avoidance of feeling but I get to have just right-sized normal reactions to things Yeah, which is interesting because I think when we're in the thick of it I remember looking at people I would sometimes even look at my kids at the time my kids were small And I would think I would just love to be like them They were just like they're not thinking about anything But in the end then you discover when you come out the other side like all those people were not always They were had their own issues and everybody feels a little anxiety and uncertainty and Emotions and I used to have a major like issue. I'd be terrified of it and sleep Which I still don't sleep but at that point like oh if I don't get enough sleep My anxiety will be through the roof and I was trapped in that cycle Remember looking at a woman in a parking lot one morning She got out of the car and she looked like she had been dragged through the night I'm my apology ma'am whoever you are, but she just looked exhausted Yeah car and she walked in and she got a cup of coffee and she got in her car Probably went to work and she was not feeling great I'm sure but she didn't care and I came to realize like oh that's where I need to pay not Perfectly feeling great just capable of feeling anything. Yeah, I mean the opposite of feeling utter dread and panic is obviously not feeling nothing But I definitely probably thought that for a while like that's the goal you know just be quote normal as though there's this like factory setting that everyone feels and I Think that would be comforting to think there's a right way to be so let me just work towards that and then you find out Oh, there's no right way to be you just want to be able to you know sit with your uncomfortable feelings It's like I wouldn't tell someone that right up front who's You know you like you don't want to scare them like oh don't You know you never fully recover in the sense you can't my therapist once and you can't recover from being human so That's a good line. I like it. I'm gonna steal that for sure Excellent conversation. We're gonna hit about the 25 minute mark where I like to cut it off Or else we just fall out the cliff because I understand people who have a lot of time listen to these but You what do you have like parting thoughts here? You did you asked me so I'm gonna ask you if somebody is somebody was you if you can relate to Jen like Jim What would you tell you? What would you tell past you? Oh? I would say there's nothing wrong with you You can enjoy your dramatic whatever as long as you're having fun with it Like are you having any fun there or if you're not then you're probably feeding the wrong I don't know what thing in your brain like I Think I just froze. No, no you good. No, okay So I would I would I know that sounds really trite, but are you are you enjoying this? and if you're not why are you doing it all the time and if you Honestly think that you are the only one that's ever had this just know that that is Probably the biggest symptom of all of this and you know I won't go so far as to call you a narcissist young Jen But I will say You really can't get out of yourself right now and you need some help doing it And there's people who are trained to do this go find them. You can't get out of yourself. That is outstanding It was worth the price of admission right there. Oh wait now You wanted to talk about one more thing because you said oh, I did want to talk about thank you so much I know you didn't bring it up that you said that no one yes, okay, so what it is. Yeah, yeah Let's let's do it. So I didn't I forgot all about it So thank you one of the things before Jen goes into her little wrap up here because this is important That the community all the time like oh my god, I thought I so when I share like I used to be afraid of this I used to be afraid of that. Oh my god. I thought it was the only one Shoot, what were you afraid of? During a panic attack when those feelings start to happen and you start to feel like oh my god I gotta get out of here. I gotta get on here My biggest fear was I'm going to lose gravity gravity will not affect me not everyone else I literally feared I was gonna fly away full body up into the atmosphere and Just you not everybody else just me You are and when we were recording you can I know you know, you saw me I literally I couldn't contain my excitement when you said that because I wanted you to be afraid of course So many people feel like their fear is the craziest They're ashamed like I can't stay with my fear is and I will always say like you can't you can't tell me A fear that I think is going to be crazy at all because I've heard all of them I had only heard one person before that was afraid that gravity was going to stop working You were the second so it doesn't matter what you're afraid of brains can create Amazing beautiful genius and also the biggest steaming piles of shit that we can imagine That is amazing and that how did that how did that go away? Did it just as you're well? I mean to be honest if I'm outside and going to panic attack if I'm hiking and suddenly I realize Oh, I'm alone here and oh my god It just the just sort of the way the view works and hits my brain Yeah, I will start to have that feeling I'm losing gravity and I honestly I just let it happen And then I tell myself it's literally impossible. It's literally impossible It's literally impossible and then I get creative and say well if you did and you survived you are going to be Like huge you're gonna write a book about it like you're just gonna be tested by scientists like you are very special You know, this is gonna be huge just get down the hill and just breathe But it's ironic though because when you're in an airplane if I were to lose gravity All I would do is just hit my head on the ceiling. You'll be no big deal. It's not gonna blow through the plane So, okay, it's weird that um that that used to freak me out in an airplane I'm going to lose gravity. All right Well inside but when I'm outside it happens as well So it still happens once in a while, but I just do all those things. I try to get creative and say, yeah Maybe you will and you can write a book about Yeah, see that that's really cool as a shades of kind of ERP work there like I'm gonna go toward it and play with it Then some people take their scary thoughts and write little songs about them and sing them to themselves and play the guitar So there's all kinds of creative ways, but I love how specific your brain got like off of him and inside Oh, who cares because I'll just I'll just kind of hit the ceiling and it'll be okay Yeah, yeah, it's amazing amazing amazing Thank you for sharing that and thank you for remembering because I wanted to put it out there because I know Somebody's gonna hear that and go like oh my god And by the way, if you have that fear of gravity put it in the comments on YouTube or email me or something cuz I that's Oh, I know I want to meet my people Second person ever ever heard and I've been at this for quite a long time So that blew me off my chair when you said that you had to grab Thank you for sharing that Tell us a little bit about anxiety bites with that's all about and I will give you all the links to Jen's podcast and everything else when we're done here But tell us about the podcast. Yeah, it's free wherever you get your podcast Um and I once a week episodes come out and I interview someone whether it's a neuroscientist or a therapist or someone like yourself Who is helping others with anxiety and we talk about anxiety? I try to normalize it. There are swears It's not, you know, I'm not a self-help guru I'm just another person with anxiety who wants to learn more about it And my intention is it's for people who know nothing and just want to hear All of the different ways that anxiety affects us and maybe see from there It's something they want to explore more or if it's the veteran who's had anxiety forever and kind of loves listening about it Might hear something they needed to hear that day. So anxiety bites hosted by me and Yeah, I just wanted to do anything to help Normalize it and if I can help one person that was as scared as I was when I was younger and didn't know where to turn Then I'm happy. It's really good. It's a great podcast if you're watching on YouTube I have it up on the screen right now You go to Jen Kirkman comm slash anxiety bites podcast and go check it out or find it wherever you get your podcast But I'll give you all the links in the wrap-up when we're done Jen. Thank you so much Maybe you'll come on again one time. We'd love to have you open invite any time. I'm sure there's a lot more fears I could tell you about I'll have to think about yeah any time official apologies tomorrow. See by the way if you're listening Really is yeah, I'm sure he is I'm sure he is anyway Thanks guys, and I'll be back in a second to wrap it up. Thanks, Jen Thank you. Hey, we are back wrapping up after that interview with Jen Kirkman I hope you guys enjoyed it as much as I enjoy talking to Jen We're gonna try and have her back in the podcast from time to time when she can squeeze it in like I said She's super busy if you want to find Jen You can find her anxiety bites podcast like she said anywhere that you can find podcasts or have it up on the screen and YouTube you can go to Jen Kirkman comm slash anxiety bites to find the podcast if you just want to find all Jen's links more conveniently just go to the anxious truth comm slash one nine eight Which is the show notes in the links for this episode and that is it that is episode 198 wrapped up in a nutshell You know it's over because music That is after glow by my friend Ben Drake and you can find Ben and his music at Ben Drake music calm Thank you again Ben for letting me use the song I appreciate you man go check him out and tell him I said hello and Yeah, if you are digging the podcast and you're listening on iTunes or Spotify or someplace where you can rate and review Rate it five stars and then maybe take a minute and write a quick review of the podcast So it helps other people find it and that's why I do this to try and help as many people as I can And if you're watching on YouTube, hey YouTube again, just hit the subscribe button like the video leave a comment I'm having a good time actually being active with you guys on YouTube these days over the past month or so It's been really great to sort of comment with you guys there in a different environment So leave a comment and a question on the video if you're watching on video and I will answer it I promise and that's it. We are out I do not know what I'm going to be talking about next week But I can tell you that I will in fact be here and as I am so want to remind you every week Keep moving forward because this is the way Looking back at wedding on the past, you know, you'll never get another chance