 Okay, hello and welcome everyone. Thank you for joining us. My name is Danny Mulgeta. I'm a lecturer of African politics at the Department of Politics and International Studies, ASOAS. I also lead a UKRI funded future lead that is Fellowship Scheme called Pan-African Frontiers and Identities Remaking of Africa in World Politics based ASOAS. We study the intellectual and policy implications of the mobilization of the idea of pan-Africanism, the fields of African security, African development and diaspora politics. Our project seeks to preserve the legacy of pan-Africanism, also at the same time, revives the idea in a new way as a prison to understand African continental and diaspora politics. As part of this program, we aim to launch a new center for pan-African studies, ASOAS, by the end of the year. The center will serve as a sort of a platform for research, policy, dialogue and public engagement on pan-African issues. So, stay tuned for updates on this area. Now, turning to today's event, we are delighted to host this panel discussion in honor of the 16th anniversary of the foundation of the Organization of African Unity, now the African Union. The OAU was established on May 25, 1963 in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia, with the aim of ending colonial rule, promoting unity and solidarity among African countries and the diaspora, and fostering economic, social and cultural development of Africa. We have come a long way since the years of independence. The second union has carried forward the pan-African mission of unity, making progress in many areas over the past two decades, but with mixed results. As we celebrate this historic milestone, our panelists today will reflect on the legacy of pan-Africanism, the evolution of decolonization in the past six decades, and its current trends, as well as the views and opinions on the AU and Africa's future. With that, I would like to introduce my colleague Dr. Leo Balcha Gabramare, who is a research associate as the University of Bristol, who is going to be introducing our distinguished speakers and moderating today's event. Thank you very much. Hello and welcome, everyone. We are really happy to see lots of people attending this live webinar. So, today we will be reflecting on the 60 years of African Unity, or the establishment of the Organization of African Unity, by reflecting on the legacy of pan-Africanism. As I said, my name is Leo Balcha Gabramare, I'm an Ethiopian citizen, working at the University of Bristol in the UK, so I will be moderating this session. Before we start, I would like to read the following housekeeping words. One, please note that this session is recorded and the recording will be made available on the Pan-African Frontiers website at the School of Oriental Studies, Oriental and African Studies. Second, please use the Q&A section in the webinar to raise your questions. If possible, by mentioning the name of the speaker that you want to respond to the question. We have technical assistants, polluting from people with us, Abdulwando, Mikhail Woldu and Sunil Pen, who would collate the questions, and that will be handled at the webinar. So, the lineup will be, Professor Tim will go first, then followed by for Luke, and our third speaker, Achen, I hope she will join us whenever she can, and followed by Gagala. Before we start, I just wanted to also be more interactive. So, I would like to raise this question for everyone who joined us online. So I assume that you joined this webinar because you show you have some interest on the issue. So, I have one particular question. If you can allow me. Africanism is a very broad idea and I want everyone to use their any device, any multiple, any electronic device that you have to go to menti.com. I hope some of you have already done this, you go to menti.com and enter this code, 78456909. And answer these questions. What comes to your mind when you hear the word pan-Africanism? We just want to know what are the diverse ideas, concepts, concerns, aspirations, or things that come to your mind when you hear the word pan-Africanism. This speaker will deal with it from different points of views and perspectives, but I think it's also fair to give a room for the participants to share ideas. So, go to menti.com, enter this code, you will have at least three options to enter your word or your ideas. Excellent. Can you see it on the screen? It's worth building. Okay. Africa, history, common struggle, inclusiveness, diaspora, togetherness, strengths, liberation, unity, future. Okay. Utopia. Yeah. I hope African consciousness. Okay. Desirable. Problematic. Common purpose. Continue to enter your word, as we go forward. So, and I will share it later. You'll have, I will, can, Abdul, can you put the code in the chat, 78456909 so that people who join us later can also have access to it. Okay, I'll stop sharing here and we'll have a look at it later. And I will also ask the same question again, at the end of the webinar for that we see if there's any change in the dominant terminologies. So, let me introduce our first speaker. Our first speaker is Professor Timothy who is head of the peace building interventions program at the Institute for Justice and Reconciliation in Cape Town, and extraordinary professor of African studies at the center of African and gender studies and the first two of the three states in South Africa. So the question that I would like team to respond to is, can you please provide us with a brief historical background on the Pan-African movement. This institutionalization over the past six decades and reflect on the extent to which Pan-African ideas shape Africa's role in international affairs and global politics. You have seven minutes. Thank you so much for the introduction and also for the invitation to be on this panel. Yes, I'm glad that somebody put the idea of African consciousness on the Mentimeter because I think that's a very important prison for us to look through. I think it's it is a necessary, you know, program of activating our Pan-African consciousness going forward as we try to advance the pursuit of African unity and solidarity. And even gate to the point where we are developing a Pan-African school of thought, in terms of how we organize our thinking. I think the people on this platform will be familiar with the African Union and they might be less familiar with the its predecessor, the organization of African unity, but I would say both represent the institutional incarnations of the spirit of Pan-Africanism. And while we do have these institutions, I would say that we still face tremendous challenges in activating and forging Pan-African consciousness and identity, and also consolidating a sense of Pan-Africanism among citizens across the continent, but also across the diaspora, where we have, as you know, quite an extensive group of people from African descent who live across the world. If I just go take a historical, you know, perspective briefly to say that, you know, the Pan-African movement dates quite far back in time. I think we can go even to the 18th century, perhaps even beyond that, to see the initial writings around the idea of Pan-Africanism and to reflect on some of the objectives that Pan-Africanism had. I would say there is no single definition of Pan-Africanism, but in fact we can say there are as many ideas of Pan-Africanism as we have thinkers. And so rather than being a unified school of thought, I would say more it's a movement which is linked to our common struggle for social political equality and freedom from economic exploitation and racial discrimination. And it's good to see also some of those ideas emerging on the on the Mentimeter. So Hakim Adi and Marika Sherwood in their very, very fascinating book, Pan-African History, political figures from Africa and the diaspora since 1787 actually did make this very important point that Pan-Africanism has taken on different forms at different historical and geographical locations, but there is a unifying underlying ethos which is a belief in the form of unity common purpose amongst peoples of Africa and peoples of Africans in the diaspora and the celebration of African-ness. So I think we do have to accept that Pan-Africanism is an invented notion. It's an invented idea, but it is an invented idea with a purpose. I think Pan-Africanism is a recognition of the fragmented nature and existence of Africans, and our nationalization alienation on our own continent, but also in the diaspora, and it seeks to actually respond to the sense of alienation and underdevelopment and prevent the culture of dependency and external assistance, which unfortunately still prevails on the continent. And I think this is something for us to actually focus on the importance of Pan-Africanism, speaking to our own agency as Africans and speaking to our own strengths and capacities to become self-reliance. So Pan-Africanism is a recognition that we are still divided, and that's where we are undertaking this project of Pan-Africanism. Even within our own continents, our own mindsets are still divided. We're still decolonizing the way we look at ourselves, the way we look at the world, and I think that is where we need to kind of head to. But in terms of the institutionalization of Pan-Africanism, if I can just very briefly go that to that point, there was a series of Pan-African Congress meetings in the early 19th century, which then led into the 20th century. Interesting enough, the initial meetings were held in the USA and the United Kingdom. African-American thinkers and academics, W.E. DuPois, Sylvester Williams, Henry Sylvester Williams from Trinidad to Jamaica and Marcus Garvey. Before Africans like Kwame Krumel, First President of Ghana, Secretary of Guinea, Leipzig, both Senegal, Ben Nassau of Egypt, and Bel-Algeria eventually took the mantle, and by the 25th of May, 1963, the Organization of African Unity was established. And that's why we actually celebrate 25th of May as Africa Liberation Day, a sense of celebrating the spirit of Pan-Africanism. The onset of the Scramble for Africa, we can touch on, is something that emerged. African Union faced a number of challenges, and I think April 1994 was a significant point in time in the history of the organization when we had the genocide in Rwanda. And it really led to some deep reflection that the O.E.U. mechanism for conflict prevention and resolution had failed to prevent not only the genocide in Rwanda, but other conflicts certainly on Liberia Democratic Republic of Congo. Sudan, Sudan, we're still dealing with this even up to now. And so it's not only, you can only call out the A.U. but O.E.U. but also the U.N. But the O.E.U. made a decision. The leaders of the O.E.U. decided to then push institutionalization further to the African Union in July 2002 in Durban, South Africa. The African Union is born, composed of now 55 member states, headquartered in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia, where we all tend to travel and engage with. And the purpose of the A.U. is precisely aligned with the ideas of Pan-Africanism that I mentioned earlier on. And so it is, in a sense, an institutionalization of the ideas of Pan-Africanism. And key institutions like the constitutive act of the A.U. very important. The protocol established in the Peace Security Council of the African Union are, you know, indications of how this has become, you know, formalized. But I want to really, very briefly, before I begin to conclude to talk about the challenges of forging a Pan-African consciousness. And I think because our continent is still plagued by very deep-seated Eurocentric civilizational agendas, which have infiltrated and remain critically unadopted by, and fortunately, a sector of our African political and economic elite, who even have governance and socio-economic systems that have been pretty much cut and And so they're from the colonial era. So there's a degree of colonial continuity. There is a colonial logic still playing out on the African continent, particularly in terms of the neoliberal economic models and the extractive agenda, which I think has failed to distribute resources to improve the livelihoods of most of the people across the continent. And this is really very effectively captured in the Pan-Africanist, Franz Fanon's chapter, The Pitfalls of National Consciousness in his book, The Wretched of the Earth. And I think this colonial continuity really is a hindrance for us. It's not insurmountable. It doesn't mean we can't overcome it and challenge the, you know, the liberal international order, which continues to marginalize Africa. We, as I said, with using our agency as Africans, I think, can address and push forward a program to forge Pan-Africanism. The leadership deficit in Africa is very well known. Our leaders are failed to address the issues. And so the citizens have to come to the fore, even though there is an adversarial relationship between African citizens and their governments and their states. I think we very much need to begin to think about forging a Pan-African consciousness, promoting a citizenship, almost a civic Pan-Africanism as a vehicle to mobilize continent-wide leadership from the societal level to build solidarity networks across the continent to actually address some of the issues that we are dealing with at the moment. Instruments like the African free continental free trade area are very useful, propose African Union passport would make this much easier. But I think the oldest really is on us as individuals, friends of Africa, to actually take on this challenge moving forward. I can see you're just getting a little bit restless, so I think that might stop there. And we can pick it up in the conversation. Thank you. Okay, I will keep my question to the later stage, but I'm really happy that you touched upon lots of several issues that I would want us to build on the conversation as we move forward. Thank you for your contribution, 15. So, I will go straight to our second speaker. In the meantime, please. Please respond to the question, what comes to your mind when you hear the word Pan-Africanism by going to Menzi.com, as you can see on the charts, there's a code that you can use to respond to that question. The second speaker is Dr. Folike Adebesi, Associate Professor at the Low School University of Bristol. She is the author of the recently published book, Decolonization and Legal Knowledge. I have it here on my desk. I'm at the very early stage of going through it. It's quite promising. Reflections on power and possibility. It just came out last month, I think it came out last month. So, I want us, I want Folike to help us to answer some of the questions that somehow team has to upon briefly. One of the key aspects of decolonization is epistemic decolonization. Do you please use the key arguments from your book, from your latest book, Decolonization and Legal Knowledge as a prism to comment on the ideals of Pan-Africanism over the past six decades and how can we use this debate that you put forward in your book, especially to address the issues of epistemic colonization and aspiring for epistemic freedom. Folike, you have the floor. You have seven minutes. Thank you so much, Eob, for inviting me and for that lovely introduction. And it's always gladdens my heart to see my book in people's hands. It's a weird and wonderful feeling. So, because I've got seven minutes and as everyone knows, for lawyers, seven minutes is about how much we spend talking about our preamble. I'm just going to go dive straight into it. So the question is for me to use the key arguments of the book to as a prism to comment on the ideals and practices of Pan-Africanism. So I'm just going to first summarize the key arguments of the book so that it makes sense. And then I will make those comments and it's very, very lovely that Professor Maruti has talked about the practices and ideals of Pan-Africanism. So I don't need really to go over those. So with the book, I think one of my key motivators was actually the misuse of decolonization in, especially in the UK, but mostly in the global north as a sort of a tool of curricular, curricular design. Which then misses out very many of the things that Professor Maruti talked about, about, you know, liberation and solidarity. The need for, you know, for there to be a change from the extractive logics or the remnants or the reproduction of colonial logics, especially as they affect the continent. So I think my first argument was to clarify why the demand to decolonize continues to remain relevant. And then next try and define decolonization because I think a lot of the reasons why there's this problem in embedding decolonization is because people don't know what it is. They don't sort of understand the colonial logics that people are refusing and repudiating or reacting to. But also because obviously as a lawyer, I thought it was important to examine the way in which the law itself is complicit in reproducing them. So say for example the ways in which international law maintains the global north global south or what we call the global north and what we call the global south how international law maintains those lines and how this is maintained in the language and the meanings of law, for example, how the law defines the human, how the law defines land and how the law has distorted the meaning of land and space and property as a means to dispossess Africans from their land and from their resources so it's not just a question of changing laws or changing practices but also changing epistemics which goes very much to your question. And then finally, some thoughts of how the law school can respond. Epistemic decolonization is important in that sense and it's very much at the heart of the book because what I was arguing is that the very meanings that the law produces are the things that have been used to dispossess Africans through questions of citizenship, where do we belong, what do we belong to, but also understanding from an African perspective, the breadth of the diaspora. So not just in, you know, through the practice of racialized enslavement but also through processes of dispersal and migration, how Africa has become more than existing on the continent. Epistemic decolonization I think it's important to be quite emphatic about what the practices of decolonization and the practices of Pan-Africanism, what they are reacting to, how colonial logics have been used to dispossess and how without re-evaluated, we understand and re-thinking those, what we often think as normal as this is the way the world is, this is the way the world works, is actually what is reproducing these disparities, injustices and continued dispossession. Therefore, it is important to think about any move towards liberation and solidarity has to repudiate those colonial logics as they continue. And my particular focus in the book is on three things, as I've already mentioned. What does it mean to be human? How do we, within Pan-Africanism, how do we recapture the distortion, the misuse, the instrumentalization of the human that has resulted in, among other things, racialized enslavement, dispossessive colonization and the continuations of the effects and outcomes of all of that? Secondly, what does it mean to be human in space and time? So what does it mean to live on the earth? So not only should we be concerned with the dispossession that results from the dispossession of people from their land, but also what's called the resource course. But also the lumen environmental endangerment, which is, as a result, among other things, of the over exploitation of African lands and resources and the fact that African countries who have not contributed to environmental disaster are the ones who are suffering the most. And finally, what it means to be human in this time and how the concepts of language like development, developing nations, such as those actually misrepresent what has happened and how development itself or the countries that have developed have been contingent on the dispossession and underdevelopment of what they call the underdeveloped nations. But we should, so in understanding epistemic decolonization, questions are, so what do we, you know, what are the needs going forward? There is, I think, an exceptional loss of Pan-African solidarity, especially in the present day. And that can be, I think, recaptured through epistemic decolonization, a re-understandable also education across the continent of who we are, what we mean to each other. The endless diaspora wars in West Africa, very much the Jalof wars, even though comedic, I think they illustrate the underlying mistrust that has developed over the years. So there are needs that there are structural needs of education which must be built into this process. So for example, how do we share knowledge, what platforms do we share knowledge on, like the internet or do we have books, do we have enough resources to do that? How do we work together to build new bodies of knowledge? And how do we practice the enactment of Pan-Africanism on the continent, but also across all Africans and African-descended people wherever they find themselves? And I think these are the key needs of epistemic decolonization. And I will stop there. According to my time, I'm only 40 minutes, 40 seconds over. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for looking. That's brilliant. And I'm sure people will get more excited and interested to read your book and to use it in their academic endeavor, either as researchers, students or as teachers. But I'm sure they may also have some questions to you as well. So please use the Q&A function on the webinar to raise your questions directed to Tim or Yerga, Tim or Fulike. Yerga will be our third speaker. Unfortunately, our third speaker, Miss Achen Akena, could not join us, but we'll continue. Before I go forward, I just would like to share where we have gone so far with regard to our world cloud. So this is where we are at the moment. If you can see, there are lots of ideas forwarded. So resistance, unity, strengths, determination, problematic self-determination, fairness, citizens movement, liberation. These are some of the ideas that people put forward that comes to their mind when they hear the word pan-Africanism. So I wonder if that can change or change over time, at least so this is the time of this webinar. So let's go to our third speaker, Dr. Yerga Galau, all the years. Dr. Yerga is a senior lecturer and multidisciplinary researcher and writer, based at Curtin University Center for Human Rights Education in Australia. He's also an author of a book called Native Colonialism, and I would like to hear from him, somehow, slightly different but not unrelated topic with what Fulike addressed earlier. So my question to Yerga is, could you please build your contribution on what kinds of colonization Africa has been facing, even at the moment, and what are their manifestations and what role an African ideas and practices play in challenging this sub-colonial nature of present-day colonial relations. So, Yerga, you have the floor, you have seven minutes. Thank you, Ayo. Thank you for the organizers. Can you hear me? Yes, we can. Okay. Let me just start by acknowledging where I am. I am at the Wajuk people of the Nunga Nation. This is the Nunga people who lived in this land. Their sovereignty has never ceded and I would like to pay my respect to the indigenous owners of the land and respect their elders' past, present and emerging, because many people may not know, but Australians, original Australians are black people who have been and are still struggling against colonialism to achieve dignity and rightness in this land, which is still colonized. I would like to start by reading a quote from Rami Khan Tabran, where he said, We are not interested in the preservation of any of the structures of the colonial states. It is our opinion that it is necessary to totally destroy, to break, reduce to ash all aspects of the colonial state in our country to make everything possible for our people. The problem of the nature of the state created after independence is perhaps the secret of the failure of African independence. I chose to say this because when you ask me what is the complex, what are the challenges that we face in Africa, I think I kind of feel ambivalent when I think of Pan-Africanism and most of the initiatives that have happened in recent times or in the past. This is mainly because what Africans were trying to do through Pan-Africanism was partly to rightfully reject the colonial thesis, the racial oppression and fight against that system. But in terms of articulating the cultural basis of Pan-Africanism, what's the people in Africa, through their experience lived for or lived by, there were obvious limitations. So we see, we enter into a process of nation building, a process of expanding education, a process of economic development, all activities without really anchoring them on the lived experiences, cultures, and traditions of our people. This may be caused by various serious challenges that have to do with colonialism's effect on culture, but nonetheless it doesn't change the fact that the post-colonial period of Africa becomes a continuation of colonialism for the reasons I mentioned earlier. So I kind of think that one of the biggest challenges that has happened on the continent was the good things that are being implemented in the continent are often in one way or another counterproductive, as they lack the cultural legitimacy, the capacity to become owned by local Africans. And I want to take an example in relation to, for instance, the African movement to create independent nations and nation building agendas, expanding education, and also economic growth. I think when Michael Cabral said about the liquidation or the destruction of the state itself, and I think this relates to the notion of the nation or the nation itself as a concept, as a concept to organize Africans as political agents. And if we go back in history and reflect on the origin of Pan-Africanism in the 18th century to be exact, in 1784 in America, enslaved Africans went out of the church, which was controlled by the white church leaders. They created their own independent church. It was that church was called the Ethiopian Baptist Church or the Ethiopian Evangelical Baptist Church. So the idea was to kind of find a space to reflect on being African, being black, but at the same time also use the gospel for their own cause. But that kind of culture based Pan-Africanism was later changed eventually into a kind of nationalism, which is conceptualized based on the concept of the nation that came originally from Europe. Although in Africa there were other concepts of organizing society as nations or as communities or as kingdoms. This concept of an idea of the nation was a colonial and a Eurocentric concept, which has become so difficult to get rid of in Africa in particular. So if you think of the nation and where it comes from, it originates from a European medieval peace movement where, especially during the Crusades, the peace of God, the idea of this peace of God, which means that killing the enemy of Christian was regarded as a holy thing. There was in the 11th century, people were probably by so many crimes, the inability of the kings to avoid violence, but they come together and try to justify the ability to attack, to kill people who are not Christians. So they said, whoever spills a Christian's blood is spilling Christ's blood. So fighting against the enemy of Christians is fighting against the enemy of God. And that idea of fighting the other, which is a non-Christian, it abases to launch crusades and later to launch colonialism by the popes in Europe who wrote Papal books. And especially the Dune diversas in 1452, where a pope wrote to a Portuguese king, Alfonso, giving Africa as a property to rule the people to use them as slaves. And then eventually it goes to Latin America, where the America was also given as a property to Spain and Portugal. So what we see in all of this is this concept of the nation conceptualized within a European Christian thinking, justifying the killing of anyone or the colonization of anyone that doesn't fit into this picture. This was solidified and come in Africa in 1885 through the Berlin Conference where participants were saying that they were coming to Africa to save the primitive races and to bring civilization for them. So that notion of a civilizing mission or burden of the white man. So this concept of the nation was an idea that come from that notion of Christianity and the notion of civilization, which always sees others which are outside of the orbit of the nation as primitive and subject to colonization. I cannot go in detail to go further in the historical process, but if you consider the League of Nations, the Trustorship Council, the Security Council in the United Nations, the use of colonial customs and practices as sources of international law. All of these structures come together to formulate a concept, a foreign concept of a nation as the only legitimate way of organizing society. And of course, as a result of that knowledge production and also economic development or economy grows. All of this also contributes to a nation. The problem with the nation, again, is that it doesn't, it does not have a cultural roots and the capacity to bring diverse populations together as indigenous African traditions did when people were living diverse lives. So let me just conclude in general. There is a very important concept that Ngungiwati Ongo wrote on his book, Decolonizing the Mind. And he said there's a fundamentally serious consequence of all the colonial system and the consequence in the post-colonial Africa is this creation of the cultural boom. He called it a cultural boom. He said the effect of the cultural boom is to annihilate a people's belief in their names, in their languages, in their capacities and ultimately in themselves. The Africans inability to believe in their indigenous cultures and indigenous institutions and languages and knowledges, the lack of confidence in themselves manifests this cultural boom, or in my own way, which I call cognitive slavery. So we leave in a cognitive plantation where the plantation is practiced through the cultivation of a process of nation building, that idea of a nation that externalizes so many people. And the idea of creating a right to Western education, right to education is not a right to African education or African languages, but we don't produce knowledge to serve Africans, we produce knowledge to serve our colonial or capitalist masters. So there is that knowledge production and economic development and the growths where Africa is seen as a terra nule or NPT land. And nations are organized as corporations so that they can be colonized and used for the advantage of non-Africans. And together, all of this, I think, gives us a picture of a cognitive slavery where even when we succeed in building nations and ex-depending schools in having the PhDs, we continue to be alienated and be distanced from our own people. That is why a kind of radical form of decolonization is a necessary condition or a prerequisite to kind of think of the type of pan-Africanism that may be suitable for all of us. Thank you. Thank you for your thoughtful ideas, taking us back to the historical issues and also linking it to what's currently happening. And I hope our participants will have lots of questions and comments, even connecting the dots from what Professor Muriti has highlighted and what Professor Adebesi mentioned and also what Gierga has already emphasized. I'm really happy to see our speaker, Achena, is already in the room, in the virtual room. Achena, are you ready to go next? Can you hear me? Hi, I can hear you, but I'm sorry it seems I got the timings mixed up in terms of BST and GMT. And so now I'm a little disorganized because I'm not sure what other people have spoken about and whether I would necessarily be continued. If you feel comfortable to go forward, I can do so. If not, I will go for some questions and answer because all the other panelists have already spoken. So then probably you can come in just by way of contributing to the discussion. Is that okay with you? Yes, that's okay with me and I can make any additional comments I have. Exactly. Yes, I will give you more time to do so. Okay, great. So, everyone, we started with some historical background about Pan-Africanism from him and for you gave us some practical evidence and manifestation of colonialism in today's world and how Pan-African ideas can help us address those issues and you also gave us some broader context of how some of these Eurocentric ideas somehow integrated into even those so-called emancipatory or liberation movements and ideas and practices. One particular question. Is there any question so far? No, I can't see any question. So guys, I really encourage you to follow your questions into the Q&A section. I want to ask one question to Professor Tim Routy. One thing that I would like to hear from you is the extent to which these Pan-African ideas. I remember reading your piece written in 1937 about the different nationalizations of Pan-Africanism and I wonder to what extent the change like at least the emergence of the OAU and now the AU has helped Africa as a political actor, a political entity to play its role within the global political economic context, within the context of international affairs or global affairs. Do you see Pan-African ideas shaping that or is it something quite isorganized and very much out in the scattered and everything is happening just on the go. Any structured contribution from the ideas? Yes, I think turning the ideas into institutions is never easy because the ideal and the aspiration is often almost always never achieved. We have a lot of ideals and we have aspirations as to where we would like to see the African continent and the institutions that are tasked with getting us there, the African Union and before it obviously the organization of African unity. And today we have a continent with almost 20 simmering violent conflicts, exceptionally catastrophic situation in Sudan right now, Mozambique, Central African Republic historically, Ethiopia just hopefully emerging out of a difficult situation, violent extremism in the west of the continent. So, and one of the things is clear is that despite all of the rhetoric, the institution of the African Union is still struggling in fact to address these crisis. A very important case in point is the situation in the Sahel, where now there's almost in fact no clear sense of the direction as to what needs to be done. The institutions, nevertheless having said that are still very important in assisting us to actually come together to at least speak together. We might not be sharing the same mindset, we might not be speaking from the same song sheet, but we are at least sitting around and trying to get some things done. I would say, as I said in my introduction, the fact that an African consciousness is not yet sufficiently activated across our continent is a big issue. So, there is a really much more to be done. I mean, if we if we look at one or two cases where perhaps we can say the AU has now played a an important role. The most recent one is the terrible pandemic that the world faced and the AU, the African continent essentially seem to be almost left to its own devices to deal with, you know, mitigating the COVID-19 virus. The African Union did come together, developed a strategy, started to source, you know, vaccines and there was a clear sense from the African perspective that there was a kind of a vaccine apartheid or a vaccine, an exclusionary vaccine policy emerging from countries in the global north which really looked out for themselves first, rather than even sharing, some countries had more than they actually needed and one of the key on sharing and it was clear that Africa is on its own. And that even that effort, even though we did lose people, we still a continent where the fewest number of people in fact were affected by the virus. And that does not take away from the other challenges we have over to unemployment and so on and so forth. But it is an indication that when we put our minds together as a continent, we can push certain agendas through. We have an African continental free trade area which still needs to be, you know, leveraged by both governments and people, I would say people. And, you know, we have, we have a number of these processes that actually can that demonstrate that there is value to having an institution that tries to corral, you know, the Pan African sentiment. But even at the African Union, I would say, the word Pan Africanism is not often heard. So we even have worked to actually do to sensitize raise awareness and encourage people to actually embrace the Pan Africanism, actually embrace it and activate it and make it come alive, live it as a as a as a living identity. And the African Union passport would be a huge step in the right direction to enable 1.2 1.3 billion people to be able to travel freely across our continent. And that would be a huge, you know, step in the right direction. And that is simply due to lack of, you know, bureaucratic lethargy and inertia which has prevented it from from being adopted but I don't think we can also leave the people out of this equation. So African people have a role to actually light a fire underneath their own institutions to not simply accept that and expect the institutions to function. If we as African people and friends of Africa are not actually directly engaging questioning calling out criticizing the institutions I said there was an African leadership deficit. The majority of the so called leaders in Africa seem to be much more interested in their own self interest than in the interests of their own peoples and their societies and the improvement of their own economies and community. And so there is a lot of work to be done, I would say, in terms of animating these institutions they will not animate themselves, we cannot all leave it to the African Union system, especially the commission in Addis Ababa to actually do all the heavy lifting. We all have a responsibility to actually engage, even if it's as simple as retweeting a hashtag, you know, that is a step in the right direction. Thank you, thank you team. I will then raise a question from from the participants to for for you to address perhaps after that a change I hope you have kind of gathered the sense of the discussions so far. So after after for looking I would I would ask you to take the floor. So one, there are two questions that I want you to respond to for looking. So decolonization is ongoing process. Yes, but what is the arrival point. Are African intellectuals and post colonial African nations in trapped in a never ending journey. This is a question that I want you to respond to. There's one question. You mentioned about education being as one particular channel that can use that can be used to build this pan-African solidarity as move forward and also by producing new bodies of knowledge. But the intervention from yoga considers the current status orientation and practice and initialization of education by itself as one colonial project, which has somehow been used an instrument of alienating people from who they are in terms of their language in terms of their culture and everything. So, when you say education to be used. When you put your gas reflection critical insight into the current nature of and practice organization of education in the continent. You have the floor. Thank you for those two questions. So the first question is what's the end point of decolonization. And I think, for me, this is why it is very important. This, this sort of reflection is why it is very important to define decolonization. I think decolonization is impossible to define but if we're going to talk about decolonization to understand it as a measure. Or as a response to colonial logics. So as long as the colonial logics continue to exist, then decolonization continues to be necessary. If there were no colonial logics existing then decolonization will cease to be important. And I think for very many people and again very much speaking from my position as an academic in what is designated the global north. The, the idea, especially in the context of, you know, after the uprisings rebellions resistances of the summer of 2020 people go well haven't you finished decolonizing now. That idea of have wanting decolonization to be over with does not appreciate the magnitude of the task that we are that we are faced with. I think, you know, very much as Diego was saying, the colonial states as a outcome reproduction result of colonialism makes us believe that when we talk about decolonization we are talking about the world as it is now but just a little bit more equal. When we read the writings of decolonization, especially from a pan-Afghanist point of view, what we're really talking about is creating or constructing new worlds, new ways of thinking new ways of being new ways of doing. And so I would think of decolonization, not as a destination, but actually as a way of being as a way of being that constantly continues to refuse the colonial logics of dispossession and dehumanization produced by this ongoing project. And that that would be my sort of roundabout answer to that first question that it's, I don't think it's never ending. But if we define it if we're trying to find the end of it, then we're not actually appreciating the task the task is to respond to a project of extraction and dehumanization that continues to reproduce itself and we have to continue to reproduce our resistances and our refusals of it. And your second question I completely agree with Jirga and you know it's, it is, I often feel education double edged sword. One of the first things I wrote about decolonization ages ago was decolonizing education. And specifically for that reason, the fact that we recognize that we should recognize that education, as we often understand it has been used as a tool of epistemic colonization. In how Europe underdeveloped Africa Walter Rodney has a beautiful chapter on education, and which sort of resonates with most of the things that the panelists have said already how the methods of epistemic colonization were used to make us not recognize who we were. And therefore how can you strive for freedom work together if the bonds of knowledge of who we are are broken through the processes of education so education has definitely been a structure of colonization. When I talk about education I always want us to think about it in wider terms, because the presumption of some people there in this sort of conversation is that there was no education on the continent before the arrival of the Europeans we were just sort of sitting around in trees and not producing knowledge. And so when we talk about education, I think there's there's also reclamation to be had there of the structures of education of knowledge, and not just the structures but also the ideals of knowledge cultivation I don't, I don't necessarily like the phrase knowledge production sort of the ideals of knowledge cultivation as a, as a together endeavor that we use to sort of reclaim some of the lost knowledges but also build knowledges for the future, because my understanding of decolonization of knowledge is that we take we try and reclaim the things that are lost. So the things that are lost to the past reclaim them to help us understand the present but the purpose is to build a better future for us all. And I'll stop there. Thank you. Thanks a lot for looking. Thank you for your response. So, I'll give the floor to a chain to put forward her ideas, but I believe that one question that she can also respond to when she raise when she contributes. I think is the executive director for the International Refugee Rights Initiative she's a Kenya. She is a lawyer and human rights and democracy practitioner. She's joining us from the continent. One thing that I would attempt to respond to is based on your extensive experience as a human right and democracy activist and practitioner. Could you please speak on the role of African social movements, citizens movements and engagement with ideas and practice of racism. While doing so, I think there's one question that probably also gives onage to this question. So, I think Hanoch Taddesa read the question. Thank you all for your very size of presentation. Which African institution holds the best hope of realizing the Pan-African perspective and ideas. Just said, grassroots organizations to pro-national like the EU, which of these present the major stumbling block, not only contributing but also hindering the ideas of Pan-Africanism. So, Achen, you have the floor to respond to all this with your contribution. Okay, so thank you so much. And again, my apologies for coming late into the conversation. I apologize if there are any things that may have already been covered by my other panelists. I think for me the starting point is that Pan-Africanism was always a people's project before it became an institution. When the leaders of the sixties were busy struggling with turning our colonial economic projects into political units in terms of nation states. They were just interested in an African unity and coming to remember his frustration first organized people. There were people's congresses before the meeting that's established for the OAU. Somehow Pan-Africanism then became an institution in the body of the EU. I think there were some efforts to keep alive Pan-Africanism before the institution. It has become very much entrenched in the EU as a body and its institutions. But I think that we need to separate the Pan-Africanist ideals from the Pan-Africanist institution, even though the institution is the structure. I call it our multi-billion dollar framework for implementing Pan-Africanism. It remains to be more of, and Tim has had me say this before, it remains to be more of an aspirational project than a reality. Dr. Tudia Dinkal recently wrote that the African Union is neither African nor is it a union. And I must agree because a union implies that there is certain elements of sovereignty that are going to be given up for the sake of the collective. And I find that many things don't work because states can hold onto their sovereignty and do not allow the African Union to grow into a body or a structure that could adequately respond to what is needed by Africans. And I keep saying that even our 50 year agenda is an aspirational agenda. And I keep talking about aspirational and aspirational too. We cannot build African unity on aspirational. At some point, we have to get off the aspirational bandwagon and make sure that what we're instituting with our multi-billion dollar EU policy for policy and institutional framework actually reflects the reality on the ground. And that this multi-billion dollar aspirational framework is also able to respond to the needs of African people, whether it's for peace, whether it's for health, whether it's for well-being, and show real value when it matters. Not the situations that we had recently in Ethiopia and Sudan. We are front in the US both at solutions as so-called African solution. That's the reality of it. Sudan, our African Union seems absolutely paralyzed to be able to respond to a situation which itself had initially suspended Sudan because of being suspended Sudan indicating it's acknowledgement of the legitimacy of the people who are now warring in the country. And yet beyond that, despite the fact that we have an entire African peace treaty, we have a whole month of artillery weapons in fire in a city, a populated city, we have people stronger. We have an entire humanitarian agency, and yet people are starving to death as they try to escape this crisis. This is so, well, this is not the idea behind Pan-Africanism. This is not why Pan-Africanism was an inspiration for Africa's unity. There must be some accountability for the billions of dollars that have been spent on this institution to make it responsive to what people need peace. You know, the kind of situation that is happening in Sudan is precisely why billions of dollars were put into setting up, say, the African standards, or into setting up, you know, a panel of the wise and so forth and so on. We have the mechanism to somehow, they're not applied in a way where it actually matters to people. And I think for me, the dichotomy between policy and reality can be seen most if we look at the free movement agenda. Free movement of people is a necessary component of regional intervention. The countries have gone ahead and ratified the African pre-continental trade area and not ratified the free movement protocol. So what's supposed to happen in Sudan services is supposed to walk themselves across the border. Maybe someone was saying drones, maybe drones can drop off routes, but services? How are services going to move if people cannot move? So you have this very schizophrenic outpounds that we see at this policy level. And I think one is around alternative sources of financing. I think the EU has been talking about alternative sources of financing for two decades. Up until today, we still have 70% of the EU budget being covered by the EU and 90% of the free speaking budget being covered externally. And this kind of exterminating resource institutions also adds to the paralysis that they see right now. They don't have the money to respond. So they just don't respond to all their terms and produce statements every other day without taking real action to protect people. And so all these inconsistencies make pan-Africanism become nothing more, at least the pan-Africanism as a principle of Africa's self-reliance and emergence becomes nothing more than, you know, a valueless rhetoric that's more important for external problems than for we the people who actually need pan-Africanism to be a reality. So I think another example I would give is when we as a concession, that's an easier word to use. But you have a lot of people who have a passion for the continent who have been engaging this institution for several years. And I think of the fact is, he spent my engagement with the EU. In fact, if you don't push this institution, they don't agree. And a lot of the people that we have seen that have had the biggest results and the biggest results are the ones that have the biggest spaces for Africans to participate. And my colleague, John, always used to say that the quality and the quality of laws institutions very much that we get as Africans who always be directly proportional to African people's engagement with those institutions. And so, for example, we've seen the African Commission in Human Rights, it's one of the most important institutions. And that has been furthest in terms of protecting the human rights of people. And that's because we've consistently engaged in that space. But if you can only, sometimes feels like you are hitting your head against the wall when you engage with the EU. First and foremost, let's talk about the expense of engaging the EU. It constantly means going to places like Addis, Banjo, and as an institution, unless you're set up specifically to engage in that space, it can become prohibited because the summits, the sessions, then all these different countries, and to consistently engage in that space, so EU body institutions, sessions, or summits can take up your entire year, just attending the summits and the sessions. And then you go there and, for example, if you would like to go to Addis, first and next to your tenant, you have to first find a visa to get into Addis. If you do get a visa to get into Addis, you need a security force to get into the EU to be able to speak to anybody. So, unless someone has taken you there before and you now know somebody in the EU, you cannot decide as a Kenyan organization that you're suddenly going to engage in the EU because you'll never get to see or talk to anybody. So when they say, I am the African, I'm not the African, you don't have access to this space. And this is really a challenge. And also in terms of social structures engaging, I won't even go into talking about how difficult it is to get to Banjo, just in terms of infrastructure and availability of life. In the other section, most of the time, if you get to fly to Europe, get to Banjo. I think in terms of social movements, you have a passion for the country, have a passion for the institution, but then the institution isn't given back. There's a lot of spaces. When, when they decided, for example, to seize interference with the sessions in the summit by external access, they threw everybody out, even Africans didn't decide. And yet we only used to stand in the corridor. Again, but we got thrown out as well because we're, we're seen as foreign, the kinds of difficult relationships that countries have with the citizens at the national level. Compact somebody said to me today that the dysfunction of our 55 countries compact themselves into a single institution and somehow escalate. So those, those difficulties that countries have with their citizens, the fear that they have for their citizens and their citizens information reflects itself at the annual level. And you now have a lot of suspicions about who, who are you as a, as if you go to the age of like, who are you, where you register. There's a lot of questions before they engage with you as a, as a, as a comment. Okay, sorry, I think I have to go to short. Okay, can I say just one more thing. Please take it. Yes, very bring. But, but despite that, we have been able to make inroads into this institutions like we have with the living stone formula, and we have gotten to push back and get some of our institutions responding better to African problems. Okay, great. Thank you watching. The reason why I wanted you. Your contribution into this discussion is to speak about this practical challenge that engaging with the initialized feature of Africanism, especially in the continent. Let's talk about the picture about that. Yes, we can talk about the intellectual conceptual debates about Africanism and the colonization but this is a lived experience and realities of people on the continent, especially who like to push for change in the policy domain in the legal frameworks and everything. So I really appreciate the time that you took to to reflect on this from your personal experience. We're running out of time, we're supposed to finish in 12 minutes time. But there's one particular question that's especially that our panelists want, I would want to them to respond to somebody asked the question give me just humor, how colonization has affected the culture of production and productivity. There's one question. There's another question about someone lives with living in the UK. Sharma Ben Ben Mira as an African family living outside of Africa in the UK. How does one push and help promote pan-Africanist philosophy in the minds of life ingrained in a Eurocentric world and hectic life. Contrary to this economy will fly further than contrary to the progression of pan-African philosophy. How do we, I hope, work together at the diaspora and really try to improve our presence in the future. I think the awareness of ancient history is great starting point. I think this is something that probably our hosts, Daniel, my reflect on and also the, the research that he's working on. So, yoga, can you reflect on the question, what extent colonization has affected the culture of production and productivity. I wonder how you understand this question. Very brief two minutes maximum or three minutes. Yes, I think I don't know what the person, the person who asked the question mean by production productivity, but I think I think when we come when we look at what is being done in knowledge and education, what we see is production. We're not seeing people transmitting their cultures, learning from their experiences, but what we see are institutions producing knowledge that can be marketed. And institutions patenting knowledge that can be used. So it would, it would be, it would not be good if education was a process of exchanging ideas and knowledges and cultivating consciousness or pan-African consciousness, but that is not happening in reality. Institutions are there in the process of reproducing subjects that can be exploited. And I think one of the most important point in this regard is to think about decolonization, not something that we go out and do it out there, but also something that we have to do it on ourselves. That gave us the right to speak on subjectors using a colonial language by itself. Should be question we really need to be able to ask our audience who is using our knowledge with using our language for whom are we doing research. One of these, so kind of, I wouldn't call it privilege, but a kind of privilege that we think we have to speak about people without using their language and experiences. So that colonial identity is within us and decolonization is very much about about ourselves. So we reproduce ourselves through ideas, through knowledges that do not serve our people. We may write, we may supervise students, we may teach, but if it is not related to our people, it wouldn't really address the issues. And I just want to add one last point. That is that when I think about these ideas about an Africanism or decolonization, I often reflect based on a place where I come from, which is Ethiopia, and if you think about Ethiopia. And that's a place that is divided as Francis Fulon said, into a zone of being and a zone of non being. That's a place where people consider living in a zone of being are those like us, who are, you know, intellectuals who are not really connected with living on producing on the culture or the land that are living in urban areas, studying and trying to become like the West. The zone of non being is a place where more than 80% of Ethiopians live, 80%. These people are rural Africans or rural Ethiopians, pastoralists, farmers. And I think about decolonization in Africa. If we don't really place ourselves at that, at epistemic level at least at the world inhabited by these people who are living in the zone of non being. We are reproducing the colonial system within ourselves and through our work, because the colonizer can become a decolonizer. And if you have an institution, not controlled by the people practices and structures that are controlled by others, whatever beautiful or critical idea or decolonization you talk about cannot reach the people you want to work with. It is it is fundamentally then important to think ourselves as I think my case at least participants in that colonial plantation, although our tendency is to talk about it is decolonization. So the fundamental disconnect is our inability to articulate the, the life world that is inhabited by people who are dismissed completely from all structures of our institutions. And, and that is a fundamental problem but if we were to try to do that. I think that is where we come back to reflect and contribute genuinely what would be a decolonized or genuinely African way of developing or living together would be. At this point, I know there are lots of questions that have already been raised but some of the questions are already been answered from your interventions was the last intervention by your guy and also by a chain. I just want to read one comment by Nama work hi. Thank you for our research was on one thing that struck me was our last speaker who said, Africans like believe in their language this was in response to the intervention by here. I think this is a mortal trade to Africa. It is about time Africans decolonize their official language and do whatever it takes to adopt indigenous African language as the official language as opposed to the colonizer. I think the role of language in terms of the ending a bigger picture of society, even to be used as a medium of instruction in our universities as a medium of cultivating knowledge is very important was wanting that colonization to do is to render African language irrelevant and incapable in adequate to produce a scientific knowledge and to make them subservient to the colonial import language writing that kinds of ideas would definitely be important to push forward. If you want to see the real parts of pursuing African ideas and practices. We are almost finishing. I just want to give one minute each for each speaker I will start from team, then go to for looking and a change just to say your final words before we finish and wrap it off. Just please stick to one minute and I know it's, we touched upon, we touched on lots of things, but in one minute, how would you like people attending the session to think about on Afghanistan. Thank you very much. It's been a really great conversation. Just to say is I think the one point that's emerging is the importance of self transformation, self reflection, self transformation. Africanism can only grow if you yourself as an individual actually take the initiative to do so. So you need to activate your pan African consciousness, activate your pan African identity. And that will then radiate to people around you, you know, in your role in your family in your community setting, and the African Union has actually adopted to keep slightly as an official language of the of the union. So we are in that journey towards indigenization and a link to that I believe there's a lot that we can learn from our own African spirituality as well and draw from our connectedness to the land and you know notions of our collective being a boon to this and so on and so on and so forth. But let me end there and say, I think now is the time to push for pan Africanism. It's great that the center is up and running, I would say sprinting. And I just want to congratulate Dr. And the team yank up to a Sunil for actually this very important initiative. And this is the time to push forward towards an Africanism. Thanks. Thank you. Thank you team for looking. You have one minute to wrap up and pass the final message. Thank you. I'll try and keep it simple. It's been it's been a fantastic time. I'm so I'm so blessed to be in conversation with everyone, including the participants online as well as the panelists. And if it's simple, I would say two things. We need to keep on learning about what pan African history is and thinking about what the future can be. And secondly, we need to build connections. We need to have positive actions. These are not things that we sort of think about pan Africanism. We have to make deliberate choices and I think that goes very much with what Professor Maruti was saying, we have to make deliberate choices in self transformation, and in building those networks to help with that self transformation, and I'll stop there. Great. So somebody was asking whether we will be seeing the, the mentor, so I will just show the origin, the first mentor that world cloud that we built. And I just put on a second question to see if there is any change. So this is the world cloud that 23 participants have contributed to what comes to their mind when they hear the word pan Africanism unity strings resistance African consciousness challenge start determination, internationalization African unity movement, all this. However, we hear lots of critical insights about what pan Africanism, it really means and Charlie. One of the challenges is also the initialization and a change was talking about we need to separate pan African ideas from internationalization of pan Africanism so, especially through the practice and organization of the African Union. It's decision making processes it's all guns and institutions, and the ways that African citizens are engaging into this policy domain so is there any change in your mind in your thinking, use the same code and probably contribute to this platform as well. So, let me stop sharing. Let me give a change, a final thought final comments, based on what you've heard and based on your contribution. Just one minute to wrap up everything. Thank you so much, Iob. For me, pan Africanist pan Africanism has to go beyond being an ism has to have value to people, and it has to have a death can. So for example, one, make remittances easier for the desk for India for example has a non resident Indian policy, which African country also does that that makes it easier for Africans who are living abroad to be able to invest in their own countries. That's a simple thing you can do to enhance pan Africanism to the AU should ensure that when it gives out consultancies or any knowledge production. It does so it uses African consultants African knowledge and builds African scholarship. That is one thing it doesn't do we have American and European so called experts who are producing knowledge for our institutional body. I could never work for the EU, for example. So, the EU needs to do better about that. The third one, provide education on pan Africanism and the colonization on TV and radio, our governments have the largest spread in terms of our government media have the largest spread. I saw it once where Echo was had a segment on one of the national TV stations. Why can't we do that have a sex segment on pan Africanism have a segment on a you what is the a you have a segment on the colonization. These are just simple things that if they just don't even need resources just need a little bit of money and there are many other examples. But so I would say it pan Africanism. Yes, great. But it needs a doing it needs to show value in order for people to be able to take it up as a people project. Thanks. Thank you, a chain. I see that it said what is closed on the on the main meter I really apologize for the technical knowledge I think I should have created a different slide with a different code. So let me let me go start to Dr yoga. What are your final thoughts just one minute. So I think it's really interesting to hear all the participants is a very insightful ideas. And I think I share this sentiment that we really need to work together we often think Africa for Africa's and African Union but we often struggle to create stronger projects, set our own agenda, even intellectually to discuss on issues that are affecting our people and when I think about people who started pan Africanism. They did significant meetings discussions planned how to what to do in the continent. Without having institutional support from the universities and from the places where they, they, they lived they, they paid significant sacrifices to write books to develop new ideas to struggle against the colonial system. And I think it is important to reflect on a time where significant changes are happening in the world, be it the rise of white supremacy or AI or the scramble for or the competition to influence your politically or resource competition and so on. And if things are happening that affect our people. The energy that should really come from young people in Africa should be something that's that is based on what they want and I think based on also their own understanding and reflection on the continent so that we should be able to really work together I don't really see institutions in the African Union really taking that leadership in terms of challenging their own donors by ideas, especially radical ideas that would enable Africans to be beneficiaries of their own resources. I don't know to what extent they would go. And it's not because they don't want to but the institutional constraints are there. It's, it's very concerning when young people are reluctant and lost in various jargons, including the colonization and Africanism than rightly focusing on the issue that they face in their own countries the lack of freedom and try to build a network just to change the circumstances they are in place intellectually we should be able to do that. And thank you for organizing this this is part of that and it is wonderful. Great. I really thank everyone to put their significant very full thought perfecting contributions on very complex issue but everyone at the rest of the form a very interesting point of interest. And I really like to thank our host, Dr. Daniel Nugeta at the source. She's project for African frontiers and identities. I hope this was a very exciting opportunity for most of us who are very much excited interested and somehow committed to the ideas of one of the kind of the conversations were quite rich. The recording of this session will be available on the websites of also us and I think I have come from ties project. Without any further I'd like to ask Daniel if you would like to say anything before we close and I will share the the final slide that we will build through the world cloud. Danny you have anything. Thank you everyone for this fantastic discussion. This has been really very insightful. Massive thank you to our speakers and for you for sharing the event. So I think we need to kind of keep the conversation so I think that's where change starts. And that starts with that spirit that we are trying to launch a new center for Pan-African studies as so as so we will have lunch even by the end of the year probably October or November. So I would like to invite everyone to keep in touch we are very responsive. We want the center to be a hub for researchers for policy makers as well as for the public. We are also on the continent in the diaspora so we are going to have outwards facing center for Pan-African studies. We have a website called www panafricanfrontiers.com. And you can also keep in touch via our email cpaas.soas.ac.uk. Thank you everyone for joining us. Okay, thank you Danny. So especially for the person who raised the question how can we engage with this issue as someone living in the UK living the diaspora to engage with some Pan-African idea especially if you are based in London. So we can use this option, this opportunity that this Pan-African Center for Pan-African Studies is creating an University of Soas. Please. I see that the website is already shared by Mika Waldo who is a postdoctoral researcher at the center. So the image that we have constructed I don't think that the second one has enough population within it, but this is what we have. I think we've done good in terms of contribution from the participants. I thank you everyone again. Thank you Tim. Thank you for looking at and watching and thank you yoga and thank you for our host Daniel, Abduz, and I wish you all the best and enjoy the rest of your afternoon. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Thanks.