 The next item of business is a debate on motion 7801 in the name of Johann Lamont on petition 1319 on improving youth football in Scotland. I would ask any members who wish to speak in this debate to press their request to speak buttons now. I call on Johann Lamont to speak to you and move the motion on behalf of the Public Petitions Committee. Thank you very much. I am pleased and privileged to open this debate on behalf of the Public Petitions Committee and to move the motion in my name. The committee will be considering a report on its work around petition 1319 in due course. We felt that it would be useful and important to afford the Parliament as a whole the opportunity to be part of this debate and, indeed, to contribute any comments or suggestions about the current position of youth football in Scotland and how the improvement called for can be delivered. The petition on improving youth football in Scotland is the longest running petition currently being considered by the Public Petitions Committee. The fact that it has been under consideration for so long and has been kept open across three sessions of the Parliament indicates how seriously we take the issues that have been raised. It is evident that committee members over a long period have been exercised by a desire to ensure that youth football not only produces the stars of their future but also provides opportunities for young people simply to enjoy the sport, for young people to be at the centre of youth football but not a by-product simply of commercial interests. We all know that football for good or ill holds a special place in our society. Those with a talent, ambition and commitment to achieve success at a professional level should be supported to realise their goals. Equally, those who wish to take part in football on a non-professional basis should have every opportunity to do so. The game at that level should also be valued by us all, including all those volunteer coaches and organisers who provide of their time to ensure that young people can enjoy themselves throughout our country every night of the week. Striking the appropriate balance between those interests is at the heart of the petition. Before I go on to discuss some of the themes raised by the petition, I would like to pay due recognition to the petitioners, Scott Robertson and Willie Smith. Both Scott and Willie should be commended on their commitment and dedication to youth football. That is evidenced, in part, by their continued engagement and the persistence with the petition's process but also by the years of their time that they have given to sustaining youth football at a local level. Their work is not just about the petition itself but their work has given pleasure and opportunity to many young people across the country for many years. The petition has been under consideration for such a long period. It is indicative that the Public Petitions Committee and I use the plural advisory have not been satisfied that the outcomes achieved to date are the best that can be delivered. In saying that, recognition should be given to the movement that has taken place on the part of the SFASPFL. Changes have been made that could be positive. Examples of those steps include the introduction of the standard pack for all players in relation to registration, the clarification that young people registered with the football academies can continue to play for their school team and the introduction of staff to support child wellbeing and protection. We remain concerned, however, that balancing up the various interests that are at play, the system that is currently established does not always ensure that the interests of children and young people are absolutely central, as we believe that they must be. Members will perhaps forgive me if I comment that, given the success of the senior Scottish women's team in its recent qualification for the 2017 European Championship Tournament, we would hope that whatever the future for the regulation of youth football plans are put in place will also allow a comparable investment in elite-level girls football as well as boys football. There are three issues of particular concern, current concern to the committee that I would highlight. The registration period for players in the 15 to 17-year age group, the payment of compensation costs and the question of appropriate payment of the minimum wage to young players. Currently, players in the 15 to 17-year age group are signed for a three-year registration period. That differs from the 10 to 14-year age group, where registration is on an annual basis. Concern has been expressed by the footballing authorities that a shorter registration period in this age group may result in English clubs seeking to recruit players to the detriment of clubs and to the educational and family life of young players. A question that we have asked on a number of occasions is why the best interest and wellbeing of a child or young person is a matter that should be for football systems to determine rather than the parents and guardians of the young people concerned or indeed the young people themselves. Within the three-year period, a player would not be able to move between elite professional academies unless financial compensation is paid. We understand that compensation payment is a requirement of FIFA. The amount of compensation due is calculated in the basis of a matrix, with the acquiring club making a compensation payment that would be commensured with the value of the training that would have been provided up to the relevant point in a player's career. In other words, a player moving from an academy-rated gold to an academy-rated bronze would have a compensation payment made based on the value of training at bronze level. What has been suggested by a number of organisations is that a fairer system would be one in which the compensation payment was made only at the point that a player signs his first professional contract. Our understanding is that a compensation system that operates in this way would be compliant with FIFA rules. The committee is clear that the issue of registration is not being conflated with the issue of professional contracts that may be signed by players aged 16 and over. However, the terms of registration and the current compensation system are, in our view, unduly restrictive on players and should be changed. On the issue of contracts, one issue to which we have recently given consideration is the issue of minimum wage payments. Although that issue is not explicitly addressed in the petition, it is another element where concern has been expressed to the committee about the approach that is taken by football authorities. Minimum wage is a legal requirement about which there cannot be any equivocation. In evidence to the committee, the footballing authorities are set out their position as to why it may not be immediately clear what payments are made to a player and how many hours they may be required to work. Against that, there have been numerous submissions that have referred to contracts that give a figure of £1 a week as payment due to a player. We have also had discussions about what may or may not be involved in the calculation of hours worked by a player and what other payments may mean that, overall, an individual was being paid at least a minimum wage. The committee is clear that if a player has a contract that includes payment of an appearance fee, it should only have that payment taken into account by a way of an actual appearance. It should not be a means of topping up the matter in order to ensure that it looks as if the minimum wage is being paid. There has been debate with the footballing authorities over the approach that has been taken to instances in which payment of below minimum wage has been brought to their attention. They have taken an approach that, in considering any cases, their main focus has been on ensuring that any player receives what should have been due to them. I also note that a change in approach has been discussed, which would enable the football authorities to enforce a penalty against a club found not to be in compliance with minimum wage requirements. That is, of course, welcome, but it remains a source of frustration to the committee that, having been made aware of a number of instances in which questions were raised about minimum wage compliance, the dots were not joined more rapidly to recognise a problem that was more than an isolated incident. It cannot be a defence that no one has complained. That is not sustainable. It must be the duty of the regulatory bodies to ensure that there is no exploitation, particularly in a world in which a young person's ambitions and their families and dreams and ambitions for them may make it difficult for them to complain or may indeed see them accepting what others might regard as exploitation. I do not want to paint a picture here of professional football club academies being full of disgruntled young people who are held against their will or who are not being supported to fulfil their ambition or potential. I do not think that that is the case and indeed we are looking forward to the visits we as the committee members will soon be making to clubs who are part of the current academy system. However, we are concerned that the design of the system is not as robust as it could be to best serve the welfare of the children and young people concerned. Recently, the committee's consideration of the petition has been taking place against the backdrop of Project Brave, the SFA's proposals to overhaul the elite youth academy system in Scotland. One of the proposals within the Project Brave initiative is to reduce the number of boys in the elite academy system from 2,500 to 1,200. In announcing Project Brave and the intention to reduce the number of elite academies, the SFA noted that Scotland had 29 elite academies for a population of just over 5.5 million. That was compared to the German system, which has 54 academies for a population of over 83 million. While we understand that there will be on-going work on the proposals that are encompassed within Project Brave, we hope that it can be seen as an opportunity to address the issues raised by the petition so that the rights and wellbeing of the children and young people concerned are fully recognised and protected. We are clear that, for Scotland's football to thrive, an attitudinal shift is required. The question of whether the current process is in place for youth football, both at the elite level and at the recreation level, is sufficient for child protection, has been considered by the Public Petitions Committee and the Health and Sports Committee. I understand that the deputy convener of the Health and Sports Committee will address those concerns in her contribution to this debate. In June 2016, the Minister for Public Health and Sport wrote to the Public Petitions Committee, noting the on-going concerns of Tam Bailey, the former children and young people's commissioner, but that she believed that there would be merit in giving the new measures some time to take effect before considering whether any further action may be required. At that time, the minister indicated that she would continue to work with Mr Bailey and was not, quote, ruling out external regulation, but would prefer to assess the effectiveness of the voluntary steps that the Scottish FFA and SPFL have put in place first. In a further letter of August 2016, the minister stated that the Scottish Government will continue to monitor these new measures and would be happy to discuss with the Public Petitions Committee and other stakeholders, including the Children and Young People's Commissioner in Scotland, how we can provide appropriate oversight to ensure the human rights of children and young people are reflected. Mr Bailey's thinking on the issue is well summarised in his letter of July 2016 to the committee in which he stated, "...my overall impression is that they have gone as far as they are prepared to go, are able to do so within their governing structures." This is not a matter of giving new measures some time to take effect, as suggested by the Scottish Government, but it is more facing up to the fact that, for real change to occur, external regulation has to be imposed on bodies that, to my mind, I rather unwilling or incapable of taking appropriate action to safeguard the rights of children. I hope that the debate today will afford the minister the chance to offer some of her assessment of whether further action may now be merited. I would be interested to know what our timetable is, our timescale is for establishing whether the voluntary action is effective and for her to recognise and understand the scale of the anxiety that has been expressed by many people around youth football about the way in which matters are currently conducted. I think that this is an essential and important debate. The petition is driven by our desire to sustain youth football, to ensure that, in its governance, in its financial dealings, it is fair to all concerned. I believe that it is important to establish proper rights for young people who find themselves in the youth footballing world, that they are not exploited and that they and their families can have confidence in the system that is round about them. I welcome the debate and the further interest of the Parliament in the work of the Public Petitions Committee in this regard. Thank you very much, and I call on Eileen Campbell to respond from the Government. Thank you, Presiding Officer, and I want to start also by thanking the Public Petitions Committee for their work on this, an importantly paid tribute, like Joanne Lamont did to Willie Smith and Scott Robertson, Scott who has since become a constituent of mine from real grass roots. They have shown great tenacity, determination and have been driven by a desire to do the very best and ensure the very best for young people in Scotland. That motivation is something that is shared by us all. We each want to see young people flourish, to have opportunity and to be happy in what they choose to do in their future. We also want to create a country and culture that respects the rights of children and supports their wellbeing. The programme for government made clear that we would seek to audit the most effective and practical way to further embed the principles of the UNCRC into policy and legislation, including exploring the option of full incorporation. Presiding Officer, this is a very clear and explicit commitment to furthering children's rights in Scotland. Article 4 of the UNCRC makes clear that Governments have a duty to do all they can to ensure that every child can enjoy their rights and by creating systems and passing laws to do this. The reach of those rights must be felt across all aspects of life, including sport and football. This petition has been considered by Parliament for seven years. It has generated passionate debate and discussion, much like the beautiful game itself. Football excites and it disappoints. It is our national game, and as fans, we feel every dip and turn in the emotional roller coaster that it creates. Last week in this chamber, we praised Hebernian's game changer programme, welcomed a flourishing development of LGBTI fan groups and have celebrated past sporting achievements and the work of football trust. This week, we fully deliberate to the improvements that are still required to deliver the positive change that we seek. In this petition, Juret's life, aided by the Children's Commissioner and a huge amount of perseverance, has influenced football authorities to make considerable changes, and we must recognise that. Those changes are welcome. That has been acknowledged by the then commissioner, although I recognise that they do not address all concerns. The SFA have sought the views of children and young people to incorporate that voice in their work, and there is a commitment to provide more information. The SFA has also appointed a safeguarding manager dedicated to the area of children's wellbeing. The SFA has established a young congress to help the views of young people's shape as activity. That work has also led to a formal partnership with UNICEF, the only football governing body in the world to have such a tie-up. The young persons wellbeing panel has been established to assist with issues between clubs and players. Within club academy Scotland, clubs will commit to a player for a minimum of one year. The 28-day rule will allow players with professional clubs to exercise notice and leave the club to return to recreational football. The game time rule has been introduced, allowing players to leave if they do not play 25 per cent game time with their club. The package of measures represents an encouraging step forward from where we were when this issue first came before the committee in April 2010. However, while those changes are encouraging, we cannot be complacent and the impact of those changes will require vigilant examination to ensure effectiveness. It will also require collective effort to remain fleet of foot in order to identify further room for improvement and to act accordingly. That work must be done in partnership between our governing bodies, Parliament, Government and others to ensure that we shift the discussion into a space that is positive about the changes being made and to develop a pride that is our national game seeking to be at the forefront of children and young people's wellbeing. I am optimistic about that and my original offer of a round-table discussion that I set out in my letter to the then Children's Commissioner last December still stands to allow us to consider the best way to proceed. Amongst the remaining concerns expressed by the petitioners and others is the issue of the potential one-sided nature of the arrangements between young players and clubs. The former Children's Commissioner described a power imbalance in January 2017 and this has been a recurring theme since. Because, subject to some caveats, a young player can still be held to the registration at the mercy of their club. We need to ensure that the balance is right. Under SFA procedures, a player who is aged 10 or above may be registered as a youth player by a professional club. The registration of a youth player for aged groups 10 through to 14 lapses automatically at the end of each season and the player is free to sign and for another club thereafter. However, the registration of a youth player for the age group 15 allows a club to extend the player's registration forward to age group 16 for the following season and this can happen again at age group 16. Although the football authorities have made concessions, the key issue is that it is the club, not the child that can terminate the registration at any time. While the language around that can be emotive, clubs make a significant investment in the development of young players. The registration system means that clubs receive compensation should the child move to another club with the club academy Scotland set up. However, we need to ensure that appropriate checks and balances are in place, given the unique place in which rights children and young people have in society. The petitioners also highlighted cases of SFFL clubs not paying young players at the national minimum wage. Following the SFFL chief Neil Don Canister announced on 31 January, the SFFL would toughen the league's approach to ensure that all clubs pay their players at least at the national minimum wage. We understand that all clubs concerned have now addressed the issue. While the national minimum wage is a reserved issue, we are clear that all clubs must meet their legal obligations. Thousands of children enjoy football. My wee boy is one of them, and, like many other children his age, James is scoring a cup final goal at Hamden or pulling on a Scotland shirt. However, not every child will become a professional star, but regardless of whether the individual child simply enjoys playing for his or her local team or is potentially the next Dennis Law or Gemma Faye, what unites them is their inalienable rights as children. The wellbeing of children should be the main consideration for us all. We must recognise that Club Academy Scotland is aimed at developing the elite footballers of tomorrow. It cannot be done without sacrifice, without determination and without coaching. However, the pursuit of excellence and ensuring a child's wellbeing are not mutually exclusive. I believe that a system can be devised that absolutely safeguards the child's welfare while encouraging the clubs to invest in developing the next generation of elite Scottish footballers. Working with this Parliament and with the committee and with the commissioner, the petitioners and with the clubs and the football authorities and using the opportunities of Project Brave and others, I believe that we can find the right balance. Of course. Johann Lamont You are saying that you recognise that there may be a need for regulation at a later stage and that you would want to assess the effectiveness of the proposals that have been developed. I asked if you have a timescale for that, but I think that that would give people reassurance that there was not simply an open suggestion that things are going to go on as they are. If you were to consider regulation, at what point will you make that assessment to decide whether the voluntary action by the regulatory bodies has been sufficient? Minister. I take on board, and I was going to come on to that. Presiding Officer, can I check how long I have in this? Only eight minutes, actually. Only eight minutes, right? Okay, so I'll take it just now, and I might come back to this in my closing remarks as well, that we will reflect on the reach of our programme for government's commitment to the UNCRC. I've also asked my officials to discuss those issues further with UEFA to make clear our overarching interests is the wellbeing of children and to explore within that issue. I'll continue to keep the Public Petitions Committee informed of that work and happy to further expand on that as I make my closing remarks, but certainly it is something that we want to continue to engage the offer of a round table to explore the effectiveness of the changes so far has been made. We'll continue to work with ourselves and the authorities to progress with that, to assess the effectiveness and, again, keep the committee updated on our work with UEFA. On that note, I'll draw my remarks to my close, Presiding Officer. Thank you, minister, yes, and you will have it probably another seven minutes at the end. Can I call on Brian Whittle to be followed by Lewis MacDonald? Thank you, Presiding Officer. Can I first declare interest in that I am a senior level 4 coach, a former chair of the Scottish Athletics Coaches Association, a member of the European Coaches Association and a board member of the West of Scotland NSPCC. I have heard evidence from the SFA and the SPFL twice as a member of the Petitions Committee and once as a member of the Health and Sport Committee. Suffice to say has already been alluded to by John Lamont. They were less than impressive when it came to the treatment and pathway for child participation and development, not to mention child welfare. First, given that many other speakers in this debate will probably scrutinise the evidence given by the SFA and the SPFL, I wanted to use some of the time that I have to highlight what good practice should look like in youth participation and development, because sport and physical activity has such a potential as a force for good. In gender and confidence and resilience, social inclusion, all of which can have such an impact on overall health and wellbeing as well as attainment and health inequalities. Physical education, physical activity and sport are all linked, one feeds off the other, especially at a young age. When young boys and girls take their first steps into activity and sport, that early experience will dictate their lifelong relationship with physical activity and sport. If it is a good experience with fun and positive learning, then there is a likelihood that they will stay in the sport for at least a while, with a good chance that the physical education that they receive as a youngster will encourage them to remain active throughout their life. As I said before, we all know the importance that physical literacy plays in both physical and mental health as well as social interaction. But if that experience is poor and that exit from what should have been a great experience can leave a lasting reluctance to engage again in sport and physical activity with that reduction in the opportunities for interaction, the fact cannot be highlighted strongly enough that those at the forefront of their sport when they are young or pushed too hard are very rarely the ones that make it at senior level. Children develop at different rates, some maturing earlier than others, early bloomers have an advantage for a while. In other words, you cannot tell which ones will be the superstars until much later in their development. Story is a bound of young sportsmen and women who are going to be the next great thing, only to fade away as others caught up with them physically or they drifted away from the sport, unable to live up to the dreams heaped upon them by others. And Scottish Football is a key example of that. Less than 1 per cent of those young players who go through the Scottish Youth Academy system go on to sign any kind of senior contract. So what happens to the other 99 per cent of that talent pool? Crucially, the football powers that be cannot tell us, yet they should be responsible for all levels of the game. Very few get to pull on an international jersey, but there always should be a destination for them to continue to enjoy participation. Performance in Scotland jersey is of huge importance as a shop window for encouraging participation as well as that sense of national pride. However, if the football authorities are unwilling to accept responsibility of ensuring positive destinations for that talent discarded from the youth performance system, then paradoxically they do so to the huge detriment of the senior national team. As I've previously stated, most professional sportsmen and women were not the best among their peers when they were younger. I've even listened to the national coach criticise the academy system. But what would he know, apart from what it's like to play in world cups and even score in the finals against Germany? I come from an era when Scotland always qualified for the world cup. I remember Hesley, Billy Bremner and Cohen 74, even got to play golf with the great Peter Lorimer recently and they do say that you shouldn't meet your heroes, but he was such a gentleman. I was swiftly passed by Ali's army in 78, 82 and 86. I've watched the glaces of the world, the David Coopers, the Hansons, the Soonises. Where are the superstars now? If the current system is so good, where is the world-class talent? Let me tell you, so that talent is still abundant in the towns and cities around Scotland. It's just the route and access to that that is strangled. Sorry. Of course. Genuinely, just to explore, an opportunity to talk about football does always offer the opportunity to reminisce about past glories. I guess, though, I'm just trying to work out whether or not what you're saying then is that the youth structure is back then or what we want to emulate now, because I'm not sure if that is what you mean, but I'd be keen to know whether it is. Brian Whittle. No, you never go backwards. The systems back then would not work today, in today's system. However, they did produce a litter of world-class players who used to train by kicking a ball against a wall and putting the jumpers down. So, if they were able to do that then, why are we not able to do that now with all this modern technology? I would like to point out that the vast majority of coaches out there in all sports, including football, are doing a fantastic job, selflessly giving up their free time, and it's so important that they are nurtured and encouraged, just like the charges if sport is to be flourished and grow. Look at any current successful sport, and you will see a long-term commitment to coaches and coach development. Presiding Officer, From everything that I've heard from the SFA and the SPFL representatives and what they've said during their time answering questions in the committee rooms, I would have to say that child welfare and improving youth football is not high on their agenda. They show either a worrying lack of knowledge in coach development and want to constitute essential child welfare, or worse, they have a blatant disregard for that essential element that any governing body is responsible for, an unwillingness to accept responsibility and an entrangidus to any such suggestion that they need to re-evaluate their approach. In nearly every answer to the question of child welfare, their answer was almost always to look out for the clubs they serve. And it was noted that not once did they mention bringing young girls into the game. Presiding Officer, it's my assertion that the great work being done out there in football clubs around the country is being undermined by an arrogant self-serving governing body, archaic in its principles and approach to the detriment of all levels of football right up until the national team. Furthermore, if it is unwilling to recognise child welfare as a core principle of its responsibilities, then I will lobby this Parliament to legislate and force the change that football so desperately needs to flourish. This, it will not go away. Thank you. I call on Lewis McDonnell to be followed by Claire Hockey. Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. Football is indeed the field of dreams. Many of us who have raised children have watched them play for their school or youth organisation, their local village or community. Some of us have indeed played in such teams ourselves, although in my case, unlike perhaps Mr Whittle, not very well and a long time ago. Kids playing football do it for fun. They do it to be part of the team or for the satisfaction of winning a game with their mates. But for a few thousand children and young people across Scotland, it is more serious than that. Talented youngsters getting the chance to shine on what they do best should be a cause for celebration. But, as we have heard already today, the way that happens in this country is also a cause for concern. Because the field of dreams turns out to be a disappointment for many young people who sign up with professional football clubs. To some degree, that is inevitable, as we have heard. Just as with dancers and musicians and other creative people, there are always going to be some who's youthful potential is fulfilled and others who lose interest or who simply fail to make the grade. The problem with football in Scotland appears to be, at least in part, that far more kids are engaged with a professional game at a tender age than can ever possibly achieve success. The Committee mentioned the Federal Republic of Germany. It is an exemplar in areas like fan ownership of football clubs, as well as in sporting success at the highest level. Germany has 4,500 children in its football academy system. Scotland has more than 2,500 with a very much smaller population. The Dutch, who invented total football in Mr Whittle's youth and mine and led the world in youth development, have 12 football academies. We have, as Johann Lamont said, 29. It would be good to believe that the numbers involved in our youth development system means that we are playing in the same league as the Netherlands and Germany. Sadly, that is not the case. It would also be good to give more kids a taste of top-team football if it was a fair deal, if the children and their families knew what the likely outcomes would be and if the youngsters' education and wider development were not affected. Even more sadly, that appears not to be the case either. As Johann Lamont said, football in Scotland has always had a special place. It can rightly claim to be a national sport. It has played and enjoyed in all our cities and in most of our rural communities too. It is increasingly a game for women and girls as well as men and boys. For many young people, the opportunity to play professionally for their favourite football team really would seem like a dream come true. That makes it all the more important that professional football clubs do everything in their power to support and sustain young players rather than appear to take advantage of their enthusiasm. As we have heard, the current system seems to fail that test. Clubs have agreements in place with under-16s which are of doubtful legal standing and whose children and their families believe are binding contracts which the young players dare not breach. Payments are made which apparently pay no heed to minimum wage legislation and will therefore not stand up to scrutiny in a court of law. Young people and their families enter into agreements when the young person is age 15, which have the effect, as Johann Lamont said, of limiting their choices between their 16th and 18th birthdays and which can leave young people at that critical stage in their development without access to full and regular employment but no longer within the formal education system. Compensation payments between clubs also appear to go well beyond the limits that are supposedly set and raise questions about the rights of young people to make their own choices about where they go and what they do with the talents that they have. All of those facts and allegations should focus minds and require active and effective regulation and monitoring by the sports governing bodies. However, as we have already heard today, that seems to be missing. I have not been at the meetings attended by others of the Petitions Committee, where evidence has been taken from representatives of the Scottish Football Association and the professional football league. I can only go by the records and recordings of those meetings and the views of those who are present at the time. It is fair to say that many, including, of course, the petitioners who are behind today's debate, many have been unconvinced by what they have heard. Where progress has been made, it has been slow and there remain important issues that have yet to be addressed at all. The right of youngsters to play for their school as well as their club has been affirmed, but only a number of years after it was raised by this petition. And how far it has applied in practice remains an open question. I was delighted when my local secondary school, Hazelhead academy, was named as one of seven SFA performance schools across Scotland. This was a good initiative launched in 2012 to ensure that young players could continue with their existing curriculum while receiving football support from an elite coach based on the school and, in the case of Hazelhead, with assistance also from Aberdein Football Club. That is the kind of partnership approach which can help young people in football and beyond and we need to see more of that approach. The SFA has also put in place a child protection officer and a children's rights officer. That is certainly to be welcomed as both the convener and the minister have already said. But the debate must encourage a more urgent and proactive approach to issues of children and young people's rights in the areas of player registration, payments of 16 and 17-year-olds and money changing hands between clubs. As has been said, it is highly unusual for a public petition to this Parliament to attract the attention of members and committees in three successive sessions. That should also focus the minds of those who are responsible for running the professional game in Scotland. It should also focus the minds of ministers. Of course, the disbushment of public funds is ultimately their responsibility no matter how many hands those funds pass through on the way. So any failure to protect the interests of our young people in our national game is ultimately a matter that the Government must take an interest in as well as the sports governing bodies. So I hope that we will hear at the end of this debate that the Government shares that view and I know that the minister has promised to lay out more about the essential timetable that underpins the commitments that she has made today. I hope that the football authorities will hear that too and understand that benign neglect is no longer enough when it comes to young people's rights in sport in the 21st century. Thank you. Before Fulton MacGregor will open the opening part of the debate, we have a final closing speech from Claire Hawke on behalf of the Health and Sport Committee. Thank you, Presiding Officer. I would like to thank you for the opportunity to speak in this debate in my capacity as deputy convener of the Health and Sport Committee. Our committee's inquiry on child protection in sport has a valuable contribution to make to the Parliament's consideration this afternoon of how we can improve youth football in Scotland. Our work is focused on seeking assurances that the current safeguards are in place across football and other sports to ensure that sexual abuse of children could not happen today in sport. We must ensure that sport, including football, is a force for good. As a committee, we have emphasised it as the ability to make a profound and positive impact on the health and wellbeing of individuals, communities and wider society. However, our findings in relation to current safeguards in football have left us with severe concerns regarding the current protections being afforded to youth footballers in Scotland today. The insights that our inquiry has afforded us into the operation of the Scottish Football Association and the Scottish Youth Football Association have found two associations woefully lacking in the application of current rules governing the PVG scheme. Our evidence sessions with the SFA and SYFA have demonstrated their failure to communicate and work together to ensure child protection policies are in place and monitored. Underpinning all of that, as others have already highlighted, we have found an alarming failure by the SFA and SYFA to recognise and address the power and balance in the relationship between professional football clubs and children and young people. The approach that is taken by the football organisations to engaging with the committee has left us concerned that they have failed to grasp the gravitas of the situation that the protection of children participating in sport is paramount. To move now on to some of the details that led to our worrying findings, the BBC reported in December of last year that 2,500 coaches working in youth football had not been PVG checked. We pursued with the SYFA whether the figures reported were accurate. We found that the information provided to us by the SYFA was not consistent in relation to the rate of churn of its membership and the number of checks undertaken. We concluded in our report that they had misled Government officials and us, the committee, in relation to the levels of backlog of PVG checks being experienced since at least August 2016. The PVG scheme is an important component of child protection measures used by football clubs and to not have this most basic protection measure operating effectively was an alarming finding. There seemed to be clear attempts throughout our inquiry by the SFA to place the blame for the responsibility for this mismanagement solely at the door of the SYFA. The SFA insisted that the SYFA was an autonomous organisation but affiliated to them. We were advised that this meant that the SYFA had its own constitution, rules, regulations and boards and responsibility for managing its own business although, at the same time, the SFA was able to issue directives binding on all its members. The SFA detailed some tightening up on governance. There had been an appointment of a child wellbeing and protection manager. The SFA also determined greater consistency should be sought in relation to child protection measures and a degraded directive to be implemented by its members. Their approach was explained as being soft touch to ensure policies were in place as opposed to being implemented. Soft touch may have been the previous bud's words but we were clear that this can no longer be applicable. As a committee, we believe that the SFA has whatever they claim responsibilities. We detailed in our report that the current approach was simply not working effectively to protect children and young people participating in football and in our view, the ultimate responsibility for this lay with the SFA as the governing body. We also said that the SFA had the power and procedures available to them to address this and called for the current feelings to be eradicated, feeling which we want to see all government funding, grants and other monies stopped. This ultimately brings us to the central concern at the heart of all these issues, power and the power imbalance apparent in football. This has manifested itself in various guises throughout our engagement with the SFA and SYFA. Primarily the power imbalance as termed by the then children and young people's commissioner, Tam Bailey, lies with the relationship between professional football clubs and children and young people. Mr Bailey stated that this imbalance was unique to football and arose, he stated, as it was in the club's vested interests to have complete control of the children. He emphasised everything was done to the advantage of the professional football clubs and to the disadvantage of the children involved. What was alarming was when the chief executive of the SFA when asked, stated, he did not believe there was a power imbalance because there had been a number of changes to their procedures to address such issues. As a committee, we did not accept that statement as credible. And only last week we saw accusations in the press that in the case of Celtic Boys Club, kids are being bullied and put at risk with no consequences for the alleged perpetrator. I also think that it's important to note presiding officer when I asked the SYFA in their most recent evidence session with the committee if I was to present myself to a soccer academy wanting to volunteer what the PVG process would be, the representative's response referred to he. They are clearly hardwired when considering coaches. The automatic assumption was that only men can become involved in these roles. This indicates we have a long way to go in opening football organisations to all. We need to end outdated and gender-biased attitudes wherever they are to be found. We have also seen the SFA rather than taking responsibility for the concerns that we have highlighted regarding their approach to child protection, attempting to exert power by deflecting blame. That included, upon publication of our report, launching a personal attack at our convener to deflect from the fact that Neil Findlay was merely expressing our consensual committee views on our concerns with their performance. For improvements to be made in youth football, fundamental changes need to be made. In conclusion, to speak the language those on the SFA and SYFA will understand, we believe that you have to be playing by the rules. We believe that your conduct has not been in the spirit of the game and we believe that you need to show this kind of behaviour, the red card. Thank you. Thank you very much, Ms Hawke. Open debate, speeches of six minutes, please. Fulton MacGregor, followed by Maurice Corry. Mr MacGregor, please. Thank you, Presiding Officer. I would like to take this opportunity to remind colleagues that I am the parliamentary liaison officer for health and sport, Secretary. I am delighted to have the opportunity to speak in this debate today and I would like to start by paying tribute to the organisers of the petition of Scott Robertson and William Smith, as others have done already, for the massive amount of time and energy that they put into getting this issue to the debating chamber today. Grashroots football is an issue that is important to everyone in Scotland, whether you love it or hate it, football is a part of oral lives in communities and, as others have said, with other sport has the power to change lives positively. Colleagues will be aware that I have recently started a cross-party group on the future of football in Scotland and I am sure that the issues raised in this petition will be discussed at length over the coming months and years. On that note, I would like to encourage all members across the chamber to come along and join in the discussions that we will be having at that group. Presiding Officer, there are very serious issues raised in the petition and these are issues that we care all deeply in about and I do not think that they can be put any more passionately than the speech from my colleague there just before me from Claire Hawke when she put forward the views of the health and sport committee. As a father, I want to know that when my children join a football club that they are safe and there has been progress, as has been mentioned by the SFA, in recent months in ensuring that boys and girls involved in clubs are fully vetted and qualified to be. I welcome that progress, but I would also like to note the speech before me, as I have said, and comments from the minister that there is still lots of work to be done in this area and would echo those calls. Presiding Officer, as a part of the process of forming the cross-party group, I held a series of meetings at Hamden last month with various stakeholders in the game. The main issues in the petition surrounding contracting children to individual clubs' compensation and participation outwith the clubs were very much on the agenda. I can assure colleagues that there can be no denying that it is an issue that talented youngsters are snapped up by the larger cobs in Scotland, and there can be no denying that some of them will get little or no actual game time. The changes in rules to stop cobs preventing young people from playing for their school or local club are an excellent step forward. I have heard the local stories of talented youngsters travelling from Coatbridge, for example, to Aberdeen for a matchday and coming on in the 89th minute now. I am not a football coach myself, but I know that we are not going to develop the next Kenny Douglas or Grameson from those sort of instances. Young footballers need to be playing the game, and I am delighted that that will now be happening from what I have heard from those meetings. On the issue of compensation, this is a difficult situation, and I can see both sides of the story. I am an Albin Rovers supporter of my local club, and bringing through young players is how clubs, like ours, survive. If an Albin Rovers invests time and money into a player from 12 years old, and then for talking's sake, a hibs are a harps come in when he's 16 and snap him up for free. How do clubs, like Albin Rovers, realistically survive and invest in their next generation of players? That said, I can put you to understand the frustration of a player perhaps being trapped in the reverse of that situation. Told by a club, he won't make it to the first team, but not allowed to move on because a smaller club can't afford to pay the compensation. So there is no doubt that it's a very tricky issue, and I can promise today that it will be on the agenda for the cross-party group very soon, and I welcome contributions from the petitioners at the time, if they are willing to. Presiding Officer, I want to use my remaining time, as others have as well, to talk about the grass-roots football itself. There are many things we do right in this country, and a lot of things that we could do a lot better, and many members have already touched on some of those aspects for both. Members are maybe aware that this week is UEFA grass-roots football week, and last Thursday I attended the grass-roots football awards at Sermonette Hamden. It was amazing to see and hear about the fantastic work going on up and down our country and throughout our communities, mainly from volunteers that are putting a huge amount of their own time and efforts in, sometimes up to 35-40 hours a week, as well as doing other jobs. I heard about the work that the SFA partners and McDonalds and the SPFL and the Trust are doing to break down some of the gender barriers that others have talked about as well. There are more women and girls involved in football than ever before, and I want to take an example from my constituency. Bairdley Football Club in Moody'sburn, when they started two years ago, they had nine girls and 30 odd boys. Two years later, they have now got 56 girls and 33 boys. Certainly, if we can see the practice like Bairdley Implemented Elsewhere, that would be a real step in the right direction. I heard at that night as well about the rise in disability teams and the joy that that is bringing many children and parents and that people actually get up and spoke to that. It was really quite heartwarming to hear. I kind of got the impression that, from that point of view, from a youth development point of view, breaking out our game is in a good place. I have raised this before in the chamber and I make no apologies for doing so again. Presiding Officer, one of the challenges that is faced by boys and girls clubs and youth clubs as a whole is accessibility to facilities. Cost is something in mind boxes, as I am sure other members are. It is full about not being able to access some of the new astroturf pitches and that sort of thing that I can see with the time. I did receive a letter from my young person in Christon who was moved off the pitch, him and his friends, and the police were involved. Although the right steps are possibly taken, surely we must be doing more to make those pitches that align empty more accessible. I am running out of time, Presiding Officer, so I would just like to finish on that. It is all our job to make sure that more children and adults can get involved in football and that they are safe. That has got to be the most important thing, that they are safe, and I hope that the SFA and other organisations can take that on board. I will finish on that just over six months. Thank you. Thank you very much, Mr McGregor. I call Maurice Corry, followed by Rona Mackatt. Mr Corry, please. Thank you, Presiding Officer. I am indeed proud to be standing here today in the presence of an international athlete in Brian Whittle and an international cricketer in Liz Smith. Presiding Officer, football is undoubtedly one of Scotland's favourite sports. It plays an important role in many young people's lives. As well as the health benefits that regular exercise gives our young people, participating in youth football can build confidence, improve communication and social skills and increase focus. Regular physical activity prevents obesity and ill health in children throughout their lives, and it should be wholeheartedly encouraged. The petition that we are doing today is improving youth football and highlights a number of areas of concern around contracts, transfer payments, physical education schools and public funding. As a former member of the Public Petitions Committee, I have had the opportunity to consider this petition for some time, and it raises a number of important questions and I welcome the opportunity to debate some aspects of the petition here in the chamber today. One of the concerns that the petitioner has is the amount of physical education in our schools. They call for a PE targets in schools to be raised from the current two hours to four hours. Scottish Government figures show that only 11 per cent of Scottish children achieve the current recommended levels of daily physical activity, and obesity is a growing concern. Scotland has one of the worst obesity records among OECD countries, and in 2015, 2,000 of adults were overweight, while 28 per cent of the children were at risk of a coming overweight. Any effort to improve this damning situation has to be welcomed, and while initiatives, like the Daily Mile, are a step in the right direction, it does not go far enough. Any problems preventing or putting children off playing sport should be reduced. We on these benches believe that a cross-governmental strategy is required to tackle Scotland's obesity and inactivity problems. A strategy that focuses on prevention rather than cure and puts the importance of reducing childhood obesity and inactivity right at the top of the Government agenda is important. Another major concern of the petitioner is around the Scottish Youth Football Association and the contracts being placed on children. The Scottish Commissioner for Children and Young People found that there appears to be a gap in the regulatory activity by Government and governing bodies in terms of ensuring that the best interests of the child are respected, protected and promoted in the youth football registration process. Their report, looking into the concerns of this petition, go on to say that, and I quote, there is a problem within the system, generally, in terms of how it recognises the rights of children and of young people to make choices which are respected. A young or young person is encouraged to be a passive recipient of the opportunity, not an empowered actor in the process. Children, as young as eight and nine, are being required to sign commitment forms for SFA member clubs, which they believe to be contracts. The SFA have argued that the registration is not a contract, rather a form that binds the player to the club. This is something that requires closer scrutiny and a minor is certainly no position to make binding commitments to any club and I will question whether they should be expected to do so. The Scottish Conservatives have concerns with the Scottish Youth Football Association and believe that further steps need to be taken around the wellbeing of young players. As Claire Hockey quite rightly pointed out just now, the last year many register coaches had not had even PVG clearance. This is a situation that needs to be urgently rectified and I welcome the commitment by the SFA to look at significant plans to tighten procedures from April 2018. I want our young people to have the opportunities to participate in sports at all levels and I recognise that a great deal of these options come from committed volunteers who give up their evenings or weekends to take training and organised matches. I see this happening now in my West Scotland region and in particular in Dumbarton, Valerleven, Renton and Helensborough, amongst other communities and in my own hometown of Helensborough we now have two youth football clubs and they are really expanding well but well managed and well coached forward. It is however absolutely vital that we have the safeguards in place to protect our young and vulnerable people and that is why PVG certification is so important. Sport can be a force that is so much good, it brings people together, improves both physical and mental health and most of all it's fun. Deputy Presiding Officer, in closing, all children should be encouraged to exercise and play sport and of course sports clubs play a vital role in this. It is also important to have programmes in place to harness the talents of our young sports people and encourage young sportsmen and women into elite sports. We want elite clubs to find, harness and build talent as Brian Whittle was saying, to bring forward on to the next generation of elite athletes. However, no child should ever feel trapped or face undue pressure under such a programme. Thank you. Thank you very much, Mr Corrie. I call Rona Mackay to be followed by Colin Swift. Ms Mackay, please. Thank you, Presiding Officer. As my colleagues in the Petitions Committee have said, this is one of the longest running petitions in the Scottish Parliament public petition system dating back to 2010. That fact alone in my opinion speaks volumes about the complexity of the issue and gives an indication of the intransigent nature of the hierarchy in Scottish football. The committee has tabled the petition 27 times, which has included discussions, commissioning reports and evidence-gathering on a number of occasions from key people in Scottish football ministers, the petitioners themselves and many more relevant stakeholders. The petition involves a number of issues, but the main issues of concern that I will expand upon are contractual arrangements between children under 16 years of age, professional clubs and the SFA. The social, educational and psychological effects and the legality of clubs banning children from participating in extracurricular activity, such as playing for their school team, as an example. Presiding Officer, it was only last year, six years after the lodging of this petition, that the SFA lifted this ban, but there has been no monitoring of the situation and many young people are still under the impression that they cannot play for their school team even now. That is the effect of isolating the young players from their peers, being banned from enjoying a more relaxed game of football with their friends and restricting them from the game that they love. The effect for many is complete disillusionment with the sport and they end up cutting all ties with football. In addition, the question must be asked how appropriate compensation payments between SFA member clubs are for the transfer of young players under 16. There is also the question of accountability of the audit process and accountability of public funds held by the SFA and distributed to member clubs. For me, the core of the petition is child welfare. It is about children being used as commodities by male-dominated top-down organisations intent on getting value for money and discovering the next Kenny Douglas. The reality is that their actions frequently shatter the dreams of many young people and, in my opinion, their training in that. They are the dream shatterers, not the dream catchers. Before I go on, let me say that the many excellent, hard-working youth coaches with a desire to help young people throughout Scotland reach their potential and progress in the sport are in no way to blame. I have two close family connections who work in youth football coaching. I know that they do it because football is their passion and they genuinely care about the welfare of the youngsters in their charge and they do their utmost to help them realise their dreams. However, they are a world away from the men in suits in the SFA and the SPFL who run football in Scotland. A number of other serious issues are raised by this petition, as we have heard across the chamber. A child who signs a registration form at age group 15 can be held by the professional football club for three consecutive seasons up to their 18th birthday. The operation of the compensation scheme has not changed and continues to cause concern with payments between clubs that have been made beyond the parameters of that scheme. In addition, contracts between professional clubs and 16- to 17-year-olds contravene minimum wage legislation with some players being paid £1 per week. Last but not least, the lack of appropriate child protection checks carried out in football agents engaged with children as highlighted so powerfully by my colleague Claire Hockey. In May of this year, the former children's commissioner, Tam Bailey, a staunch supporter of the petition and who maintains a strong connection with the subject, sent a letter to HMRC informing them of the petition and the implications arising from it in respect of payments by professional football clubs which contravene the minimum wage. He reiterated the concerns that the Scottish Football Association and the Scottish Premier Football League have been intransigent to change and told them of the documentary evidence produced which confirms 16- to 17-year-olds have signed with professional football clubs for wages ranging between £1 to £10 per week. During evidence to the committee in the 22nd of December last year, Neil Dawn Caster, chief executive of SPFL, stated, we do not have sight of the contracts between clubs and players. Effectively, eligibility to play in SPFL competitions arises from a Scottish FA registration. So no, I don't have any knowledge of clubs paying a pound a week. Presiding Officer, even when it was brought to their attention, they failed to act. In response to a letter on the minimum wage from the petitioners, the SFA and SPFL stated, this area of legislation is complex and it's not always apparent from a contract how many hours a player may be working in a relevant pay period. The focus of both bodies is to ensure that players are paid the minimum wage rather than punishing clubs for non-compliance. Presiding Officer, I believe that this proves that the football authorities are not prepared to find out where the minimum wage has not been paid or be at all interested in finding out what's happening to young players under their stewardship. It's true that during the lengthy passage of this petition there have been some positive developments, such as the SFA appointing a child protection officer and a children's rights officer and some limited changes to children's rights while assigned to a professional football club. As the minister said, the Scottish Government has indicated their desire to work with clubs to address outstanding issues. However, due to the inactivity and intransigence of those holding positions of power within the SPFL and the SFA, Tam Bailey is calling for legislation to address the matter, as we've heard. The fact is, children are being asked to sign contracts despite not having the legal power to do so when under the age of 16. Many parents do not understand the small print of these contracts and in any case are so overwhelmed that their child has been given a chance to progress to professional football that they do not want to rock the boat and ruin their dreams. Presiding Officer, the purpose of this petition is to expose the abusive power and control of children by professional football clubs in Scotland. To date, children's rights have been contraband and football mandarins have adopted the untouchable approach. This is simply not good enough. How many more years do we have to wait until this imbalance is kicked into touch? Let's hope change is imminent. Thank you very much. I call Colin Smyth. It's a privilege to speak in this important debate and commend the considerable and lengthy work of the Petitions Committee that's been undertaken tackling such vigour issues that have remained unresolved in Scottish football for far too long. Although I'm not a member of the Petitions Committee, I am a member of the Health and Sport Committee. As Clare Hockey explained earlier, that committee has undertaken an inquiry on a topic very much related to the Petitions Committee's work on youth football, namely child protection in Scotland. I would like to focus my brief comments today on that particular issue. We all know that sport, including football, has the power to really inspire young people to make them healthier, to develop a real sense of achievement and, in short, to be a force for good. That's in no small part thanks to the tireless and selfless commitment of the thousands of dedicated, mainly volunteer, youth coaches right across Scotland. Coaches will give up their time, often at personal cost, to make a profound, inspiring difference to the lives of the young people that they work with. It's important that we recognise the positive impact that those coaches make to the health and wellbeing of individuals, local communities and wider society. In recent months, however, we've all heard the tragic cases of former youth footballers who have come forward to tell their personal stories of historical sexual abuse in football, where a small minority of abusers, not coaches, have used their position of influence to perpetrate sickering crimes. It's those tragedies that prompted the Health and Sport Committee to undertake our inquiry. Not to examine those tragic cases, that's very much for the police and the courts, but to seek assurances that the current safeguards in place in sport are such that child abuse could and would not be allowed to happen today. The committee considered a number of areas with a particular focus on the Protect and Vulnerable Group scheme. Ensuring that adults working as coaches and in similar roles have undergone should be a fundamental starting point for safeguarding children and young people. However, the committee learned that participation in the PVG scheme is not mandatory for those working with young people in sport. There's no requirement for talent scouts and other intermediaries to undergo PVG checks. Although it's an offence to know only employer person on the bad list, evidence from Disclosure Scotland to the committee's inquiry confirmed that and I quote, it's not an offence to employ somebody to know that they are bad, which presumably includes cases where the organisation hasn't had a PVG check carried out. It was clear to committee members that there's a need to be more explicit when PVG checks should be required and there is, quoting from the committee's recommendations, a compelling case for the PVG scheme to be made mandatory. The committee concluded that the current system may not be preventing unsuitable people from doing regulated work. The inadequacies of the present voluntary system have dramatically brought home to the committee by what can only be described as the shambles of the Scottish Youth Football Association's handling of PVG checks. As Claire Hockey said earlier, during an inquiry in December 2016, the BBC claimed that two and a half thousand coaches working in youth football had not been PVG checks. When the Scottish Youth Football Association appeared before committee to give evidence and to be questioned on the number of outstanding PVG checks, the figures they provided consistently and frankly misled the committee. We found out that offers of assistance to the SYFA from Disclosure Scotland and Volunteer Scotland to help to clear the backlog of applications were rejected by the Youth Football Association. Throughout all of that, the Scottish Football Association took the view that Youth Football Association was an autonomous organisation simply affiliated to the SFA. As the committee concluded such a soft-touch approach by the SFA was simply not working effectively to protect children and young people with football, and as a committee convener said, the SFA were asleep on the job. Although the SFA and the SYFA are not accountable to Parliament, the SFA and other sporting bodies do receive public funding and the committee took the view that such grants should in future be conditional on adequate child protection procedures being put in place and being adhered to. Of course, this PVG system is a vital part of the safeguarding process. We know that alone it is not enough to guarantee safety. This was a point made by the professional football association Scotland in their evidence to the committee when they stated, and I quote, that PVG checks only raise issues when an individual has a criminal record. The committee heard that since 2002 children first have worked with Sport Scotland to deliver the safeguarding and sports service support which goes well beyond PVG checks and maintains a set of minimum operating requirements which are currently being updated to take a much broader and more child-centred and rights-based approach. Something I very much welcome. I think it's fair to say that since both the Petitions Committee and the Health and Sport Committee began our inquiries and shown a light on many of the issues described today there have been a number of improvements for example improvements by the SYFA in dealing with PVGs, a new directive from the SFA to ensure that its members follow child and wellbeing policy and the SFA also conduct an internal review which is taking place at the same time as the current PVG review and the child abuse inquiry. However, it's clear that whatever processes or procedures are slowly being put in place at a current theme in the evidence to the Health and Sport Committee is a fundamental cultural problem within sport where children are not properly valued and their wellbeing is not at the centre of people's thinking, a theme clearly evident in the work of the Petitions Committee. Children say that their recent allegations of historical child abuse in sport are, quote, the latest manifestation of society's collective failure to listen to, believe and respond to children who have been abused. The former Children and Young People's Commissioner for Scotland, Tam Bailey, raised specific concerns regarding this culture and the power imbalance in football and the unfair treatment of children. Argyn, that is, and I quote again in clubs at vested interests to have complete control of the children and run to the advantage of the professional football clubs and to the disadvantage of the children involved. When given evidence, the chief executive of the SFA denied those claims but as we've heard today, it's a denial that frankly lacks credibility. In concluding, Presiding Officer, it's clear from today's debate that both committees share a view that the football authorities have an overriding duty to eradicate this imbalance and indeed any perception of it. The Health and Sport Committee were very clear that if this isn't forthcoming to the authorities, the Scottish Government should then act through legislation. Thank you very much. Alex Cole-Hamilton, to be followed by James Dornan. Mr Cole-Hamilton, please. Thank you, Presiding Officer. I'm very grateful to Johann Lamont and the Petitions Committee for raising this important issue for debate in the chamber today. The conduct of our national game and the induction of our children into it has seldom attracted the focus of this chamber but after seven years in committee and for the reasons that were outlined by those submitting the petition, we are right to address it today and not before time. Revelations that under 16 players had been induced to sign contracts for payments for as little as a pound a week by agents operating without any kind of child protection checks is frankly astonishing. That Karamoko Dembele at the age of 13 should feature in an under-20s match for Celtic against Hearts and become subject to speculation in the betting markets with insufficient consideration for his well-being is a matter of grave concern. Repeated reports that clubs have forbidden up-and-coming young child stars from engaging in any other form of extracurricular activities should sound a clamour of alarms for us as legislators. To find those practices in any other industry we would surely as a Parliament have cried foul long ago yet for some reason that we have built around Scottish football has avoided the scrutiny and the rebuke of this chamber. It's more wonder then that Scotland's former Children's Commissioner my friend and colleague who we've heard quoted several times today already said of the practice that clubs are trading on the dreams and aspirations of those children and young people at the end of the day they are exploiting them for monetary gain. In these words we see the measure of the power imbalance that exists naturally between young people ardent to follow the international glory of their heroes and idols who must follow a narrow and deeply competitive path to success, where it is coaches, talent scouts, club managers who hold all of the ladders to that success. From a desperately early age young people who would seek to rise to such heights in the game become aware of what is required to climb those ladders. An obsessional focus on following a training regime led by your coach loyalty cemented in legally binding contracts which might lead to everything or sometimes nothing and the patronage of talent scouts and agents for whose attention you must jostle with hundreds of other young players. It is because in part of recognition of power imbalances such as this that we have sought to bring forward child protection legislation in the past. We had I suppose assumed that the protection of vulnerable groups act would be sufficient in protecting children from people who would seek to exploit them or abuse them in locker rooms or on playing fields, but we never stopped to think about the industry that now surrounds the elite end of the game. We should therefore, as a matter of urgency, seek to re-evaluate and to regulate not just the agency and contractual side of this, but the police checks that those people who hold sway over these young lives but are not currently covered by legislation should also now undertake. Deputy Presiding Officer, the very laxadaisical attitude of those who preside over the game in this country I will. Fulton MacGregor, please. I think that the named person legislation could help with some of the things that he raises today. I'll call Hamilton. Frankly, no, we're talking about child protection legislation in the form of the protection of vulnerable groups act. Irrespective of this, the laxadaisical attitude of those who preside over the game in this country just to the rights of the children who seek to make a career in football but their protection within it as well is one of the most shocking things that I have learned in my short time on the health and sport committee. Some of my fellow committee members have already stated our inquiry in the immediate aftermath of serious allegations of historic child abuse in Scottish football revealed a shocking level of inaction by the sport's governing body that I felt to be nothing more than a dereliction of duty and I know my colleagues on the committee agree that the Scottish Football Association should finally issue a directive to the SYFA to have all of its coaches PVG checked before the summer as was referred to by Colin Smyth. A full 10 years after the act came into force demands our immediate attention. Presiding officer, youth football has such a capacity for good in this country and properly managed it can engender enormous and positive social impact. Take, for example, Spartans Community Football Academy in North Edinburgh. Set up in 2008, they now reach more than 2,000 young people every year, many from my constituency in Edinburgh or Western. Besides the more obvious reasons why a club like this might be so important, they are also educating those who might fall through the cracks. Their alternative school provides young people who find school challenging or at risk of exclusion with a different way to learn in classes a few times a week. Subjects include English maths and education to the physical activity that the game provides. Spartans have been a vital partner in stronger north and operation satiria which is working to reduce motorbike crime in north by Edinburgh and they are the nexus of the sweet of youth work interventions as making a lasting impact on a range of social problems in that part of our nation's capital. Put simply, Deputy President, Presiding Officer, football is a language that can connect with even the hardest to reach young people in our society and early support from community clubs such as those can transform lives. Be they aspirant footballers from the fringes of our society or at the very top of their game, children of any ability must enjoy the full protection of this Parliament from any form of exploitation or molestation and it is as such that we rightly turn our attention to it today. Thank you. Thank you very much Mr Cole-Hamilton. I call James Dornan to be followed by Liz Smith. Mr Dornan, please. Thank you, Presiding Officer. I'd like to start off by congratulating Willie Smith and Scott Robertson in their perseverance in making sure that the Parliament heard their petition. Everything they do is for the benefit of young players throughout the country and we owe them a great deal of thanks. I must also mention my old colleague Chick Brody for all the work that he put into this in the last session, Tam Bailey and, of course, Johann Lamont, who has went for a cup of tea because I was speaking, and the rest is to account. I've been involved in football for as long as I can remember. I was a young fan, a very mediocre player, a coach, a manager of amateur and juvenile clubs, a proud father and a grandfather. But there are two areas which are most relevant here. My two sons were good players and my youngest signed for Celtic and played for Scotland. He was asked to sign while tossers couldn't have dragged them away for signing for the club he and her family had always supported despite offers from high profile English clubs. I'll be honest and say that I do not remember even looking at the contract. But, honestly, back then young footballers were just food for the beast. You made it or you didn't. Sailor V, as far as the club, was concerned. I had honestly thought that things had changed dramatically since then. But reading the committee papers, listening to the representatives of the SFF and SPFL at the two committees of the Petitions Committee I attended, have shown me any movement that has been superficial and slight. I welcome the some of the moves that have been made by the Government bodies at the behest of the committee in the Scottish Government but, to all times, they appear to have been dragged kicking and screaming to those positions. For example, the aforementioned six years it took from the lodging of the petition for the SFF to issue guidance that children should be free to play for the school teams. But with no monitoring, sure children and young people are aware of this charge, this change. For me this highlighted what I saw when I attended those committees and asked questions of the SFF and SPFL. There was an arrogance, a dismissiveness, a blinkerness, where they seemed to be driven by the chosen few at the top of the game and have absolutely very little regard for the impact on their decisions on the young people of Scotland and the young people whose dreams as Rona Mackay very eloquently put, whose dreams they are shattering and they are not upholding. We have a duty and a responsibility to make sure that people who get involved in this game when they leave the professional game leave it still loving the game and go on to take all the benefits that comes from football, all the camaraderie they get, all the lifelong friends that you make plus, of course, the fitness and health benefits that go with any sport. My good friend and comrade Neil Findlay, of the Health and Sport Committee, had asked a number of questions of Stuart Reagan. One of the questions was, does the Scottish FA use profits from coach education courses that are paid by youth organisations and in any way fund individuals associated with professional football clubs? The answer, which is a typical football body answer, if you are asking whether we take profit from the grassroots games the answer is no. The next sentence says, if you are asking whether we offer discounted places to individuals associated with professional clubs, the answer is yes. Those two things do not match. They cannot both be the same thing. You know that that is bad enough but the end result of this is clubs like Campsy Black Watch go to the wall. I used to run Netherley under 21s and we had a really, really good team. The one team that we beat once I think in the six years or so was Campsy Black Watch. We have Jerry Marley running it. Jerry is now 85. Campsy Black Watch has been there for 74 years. Just like how in 1966, I believe you wouldn't know it, looking at Willie up there, he only looks about 40, but they have been on the go and it is clubs like this that we have to protect. We should never allow a situation where clubs like that are paying for professional football. Money should be coming this way. It should not be travelling up to those who already make a good living and make plenty of money out of the game of football and it certainly shouldn't be youth football. That money should be used to protect our children. It should be used to improve the football that our children are getting. We don't get that from the SFA and the SPFL. There was a question about the national minimum wage in about £1 a week and the three-year contracts. Unfortunately, there's not going to be time for me to talk about it. I could be here for another 40 minutes, but I know I couldn't. I was only kidding. When I asked them, they talked about appearance money being part of the £1 a week contract that would make it up to the living wage. First of all, I believe that that's illegal. Secondly, when I asked them, if somebody who then trained three nights a week travelled to Aberdeen, was on the bench, never got on the park, did he just get his pound a week? The answer? Complete waffle, nothing. That's what we're dealing with here. I do not believe that if we leave this to the SFA and the SPFL, we will come out of this in a place where our young kids are enthusiastic, continue to be enthusiastic about football. I know what happened a long time ago with my boy when he left and he was fed up with Scottish football and ended up going to play in Australia. I do not believe that we should still be in the same situation 25 years later than we were back then. Therefore, I think that the SFA and the SPFL have to be made to do the right things because I can assure you they will not do it of their own accord. Thank you. No, but we'll find out. Liz Smith. We follow by Mary Todd. Liz Smith, please. I'm very pleased to be taking part in this debate. For some of the reasons that James Dornan has just annunciated in a way that I thought was particularly interesting. I won't call you comrade, Mr Dornan. I think that that would go against the grain. Nonetheless, I thought you spoke with considerable passion there and identified an awful lot of the issues that have been thrown up by this petition. So thank you for that. I'm also pleased because of somebody who's been very much involved in school sport for the best part of 40 years, I think, it is. I think that, whilst I am by no means an expert in football or in its coaching, I hope that I can speak with some authority about some of the relevance of the issues that are raised by this. Can I just pay credit to the minister who took the time three weeks ago, I think that it was, to come to Stirling to look at a new initiative called Beyond Boundaries. I must declare an interest in that, but thank you for coming because I think that was a mark of what the Scottish Government is supporting to try and develop sport for people who perhaps would never have any chance whatsoever to get involved. As Johann Lamont said when she opened, football is obviously very much part of the national psyche. Not always for a good reason, it is very positive. The country's collective mood is most easily taken by observing the fortunes of those in dark blue at Hamden. For all but the chosen few, this national obsession is taken probably a little further than if you are standing in a football match or sitting in the stands watching it on TV. However, today's debate investigates the experience of those who come closer than most to making it a professional footballer. As we are all very aware, the focus of the petition is very wide and I want to touch on a couple of elements that I believe are worthy of much further investigation. Youngsters do grow up in the hope of emulating their idols and for many the opportunity to train or play professionally is seen as just so bake an opportunity not to miss. Not surprisingly, the vast majority do not end up playing for the senior side or even professionally, but I think that some of the comments are absolutely apt and we need to take on board exactly what disappointment can do to youngsters, particularly if they are young. Beyond the emotional issues are practical difficulties too with children often continuing to sacrifice parts of their traditional education to pursue football. For example, I noted that this year Scottish international is playing in a tournament abroad. We are actually accompanied by an SQA invigilator in order to sit their exams because that situation is particularly conducive to studying good grades, but it is an example that serves to illustrate the pressure that is on many young people to be able to balance their life in sport and obviously in education. I think that the demands of international sport these days are increasing and not always in a good way. For youngsters who do not make it, clubs must be on hand to offer the proper emotional and mental health support because dealing with the setbacks may be part of life, but few children will experience such a brutal education and disappointment as what happens when they lose out at a young age. A couple of speakers before me have said that football is like no other industry. That's true. The finances in elite football operate in a different world with clubs routinely playing for potential rather than established talent. We've just had a summer where an 18-year-old was signed for 147 million euros. Cleary nurturing a talented child into a fully developed profession is big business and no one should appear to say anything else. In Scotland we have the world's richest and biggest league on our doorstep and this undoubtedly complicates matters for youth academies. Clubs who invest in coaches and facilities would not do so if a rival could swoop in and sign a player without any compensation. In any other industry a business seeking protection for their investment would be perfectly normal but in football the investment is often in a youth player. A fairer balance therefore has to be struck between the wellbeing of the child and protections for clubs. That perhaps is one of the most difficult things that we have to do. With players registering at younger ages and only 55 per cent of parents saying that they fully understand the terms and James Dornan referred to this many feel intimidated and shy about professional representation. I was shocked to learn that children as young as 12 have intermediaries and their own agents. I was even more shocked to learn that for the most part these agents are not required to have passed any of the checks that we would expect. That is clearly something that is not acceptable. I would like to finish my remarks on what I see as one of the opportunities that we have and can I use Iceland as an example. They have invested a huge amount in indoor facilities and they have made more of the UEFA coaches per capita than any other in Europe. Last summer we saw the fruits that their investment was very clear. I know many in chamber enjoyed that experience. I cannot say why but we did. In Iceland they have made it their business to try to get behind what can happen to many of their youngsters who are excluded from the game. I think that a lot of the provision of indoor facilities and improving the availability of coaches and professional coaches has made that more possible. I am running out of time but I want to say my congratulations to the petitioners but also to the parliamentarians who I think have taken up this issue with very considerable enthusiasm and with passion and it is incumbent upon all of us to be able to address it and do something positive so that all our children, whatever their standard, are benefitting. I call Mary Todd. We follow back James Kelly. Miss Todd, please. As a member of the Health and Sport Committee I became aware of this petition during our consideration of child protection in sport in the course of this year. The petitioners have not only highlighted matters of serious concern in the original petition and the process of diligence, scrutiny of the Scottish Parliament other matters have come to light. As others have said it is a measure of cumulative concerns that this debate is taking place and I am very grateful to the Petitions Committee for allowing the opportunity to bring the important discussion to the chamber. I would also like to thank Tam Bailey, the former Children and Young People's Commissioner in Scotland for his work on this over the years and also for the briefing that she provided and much of which I will cite in my contribution. The Health and Sport Committee began looking into the systems and processes of child protection in sport in the wake of allegations of historical child sexual abuse in football. Given those allegations and the fact that the BBC uncovered a large backlog in PVG checking in youth football we wanted to assure ourselves that today's systems would prevent unsuitable folk from doing regulated work with children in any sport. Over the course of the year it became clear to us that improvements have been made in football but the SFA and the SYFA have been sluggish if not actively evasive in their response and certainly not proactive. They only began overhauling their procedures of criticism. There have been some encouraging changes to address problems and in fact recently at our most recent evidence session on this topic Disclosure Scotland chief executive Lorna Gibbs told us that the SYFA was on a journey to a better place. I'm delighted with that progress but I would suggest that they need to go further. During that evidence session on 5 September it became apparent that neither of the two members Mr Duncan Mays nor Mr John McCrimond had completed child protection training. That was despite there being senior members involved in the youth football for many decades and in the current SYFA since 1999. Again, this seems completely incredible given their need to demonstrate leadership and their need for awareness of child protection issues. PVG checking is just a small part of child protection so it's impossible for us at the committee to have complete confidence that the SYFA and the SYFA are aware and proactive around the entirety of the issue. As Tam Bailey says the defining mission of this petition is to expose the abuse of power and control over children and young people by professional football clubs in Scotland over many years. The concern is that football clubs cynically exploit the ambitions of young people that they exert unacceptable levels of restriction and control and that football authorities defend current processes and demonstrate an intransigence to change. The consequence of all of this is that football authorities pay scant regard to their monitoring role and children have weak protection of their rights. As others have mentioned the vast majority of children in professional football clubs do not have long-term employment prospects and many are left disillusioned. In a letter to the health and sport committee Tam Bailey said my main concern is the power and balance and unfair treatment of children involved with professional clubs. This places professional football clubs in a very powerful position with children desperate to realise their dreams and as a result vulnerable to exploitation. In my experience the system in place gives scant regard to the best interests of the children involved. Just a few weeks ago at that session on 5 September Stuart Reagan of the SFA appeared again in front of the health and sport committee and reiterated yet again that he does not believe that there is a power and balance. At the committee hearing we raise concerns about the commodification of children with terms being used such as investment and compensation. He disagreed saying what we are talking about is a pathway to develop elite players which works in every other country across Europe. There is a process to ensure that clubs are investing a lot of time, energy resource in developing elite players and have a suitable compensation mechanism. We have a duty to develop elite players if we want to be successful on the international stage. The process is clear and transparent. Parents are aware of it and the clubs have all signed up to it. We have been talking to the Children's Commissioner about that mechanism for a number of years. I remind you of the Children's Commissioner words about transidents to change. He may think that this is sufficient but it seems obvious to me and to fellow committee members that there is a power and balance. There is a power and balance between clubs and children because of the contracts that children and young people sign and the conditions that are imposed on them. A contract or they may call it a registration is involved which, whilst offering opportunities and benefits also limits freedom, power in this situation is the amount of controller influence that one party has over the other. How much influence there is over decision making. Add to this picture that coaches themselves are often heroes or become idolised and positioned as powerful figures in the lives of young athletes and clubs are packed with their idols. There is an exchange relationship with coaches and clubs contributing knowledge and expertise and athletes a willingness to learn and a high level of effort and compliance. Of course in this view it is the coaches and clubs which hold the power in the relationship. A relationship where one individual is fully compliant to the other is one that can be seen to have a balance of power and control and can lead to the potential for abuse of power. We at the committee remain concerned about the power imbalance and the cultural attitudes within youth football. They must acknowledge those concerns before they can address them. Thank you very much. I call James Kelly to be followed by Jenny Gilruth. Mr Kelly, please. Thank you very much. As people from across the chamber and people who have been on the committees some who have got an interest in sport have brought their real depth and feeling to the debate and I think that that has brought out some excellent points. Like others I want to thank the petitioners for bringing the issues forward. I think that they do so not just on behalf of their own concerns but they do so on behalf of the many, many boys, girls, parents and volunteers who participate in youth football throughout the country. I think that there are two issues that I would want to bring out the lack of wellbeing towards children participating in football and how we improve participation in access. In terms of the wellbeing of children as many have said many kids participate in the sport hoping that maybe one day they can go on and score a winning goal and a cup final. Some just enjoy going along, enjoy the camaraderie whatever they do they are entitled to be properly looked after and it is clear from what the different members have said on certain petitions committee that in a lot of cases that is not the case. To me there has been a real fall down listening to members and reading the evidence in terms of contracts and registration. The fact that under 16s can be tied up on three-year contractors I think that somebody said kids as young as nine signed up on registrations it just shouldn't happen. There are clearly payments that are made that are below legal requirements and also at an appropriate level and I think the theme that runs through all is that there is just a complete lack of any kind of proper audit process. It would appear that the view of the SFA and the SPFL is almost complacent, laxidaisical. Why are you bothering about these things? It matters because so many thousands of kids participate every weekend up and down the country and they deserve to be treated properly. Surely it is not out of these organisations to ensure that there is some kind of central registration process with minimum requirements that ensure that our kids are looked after properly. I also think that it is shocking that the contribution James Dornan made when he spoke about the way money flows in football and the way the grass roots aren't properly supported. There's a real reluctance from the footballing bodies to allow any audit of public money in how it's used but how the money actually flows. I think that supporters and people who participate and those of us who are interested would be of real concern at the lack of transparency around that. The fact that it's taking since 2010 and that many of the issues still haven't been addressed is a real, real problem. I just think that the attitude that the SFA and the SPFL has been shocking. I know that the minister is going to address the Government's way forward. I think that there's a real issue for the Government here. It's clear that the SFA and the SPFL are not going to take the action that's required. I think that the Government now needs to set out how they are going to enforce some kind of responsibility here. I think that the other issue is participation in sports. I enjoyed Brian Whittle's trip back through time through all the World Cups. I remember them all well. Some bright spark over here saying why did he not mention Costa Rica? Aileen Campbell rightly challenged him as to why could we do it then and not do it now. I think that a lot of it is to do with participation. When I go back to the area where I grew up in, in halfway, the two large green parks if you like, aggressive parks if you like, there weren't even formal football pitches in the middle of the scheme where I grew up, are still there, they're still well maintained in the local housing association. The difference is they're completely empty. Whereas when I grew up people were playing in them all over the summer in the winter, not just football but golf and they even had an odd game of cricket on it. I know it's hard to believe cricket in half way. The serious point is that I think the reason that Scotland was so successful back in the 70s and the 80s is there was a lot more informal participation in the sport and nowadays it seems to me that what's happened is that in order to participate you need to be formally part of a club you need to have a lot of the equipment which can be a barrier to people taking part. My final point is that we need to have an honest discussion about funding because if you want to have 4G pictures you want to have higher levels of participation you want to bring more skilled players on how you're going to fund it. I'm very lost to cut speeches short Mr Kelly, I'm enjoying them all but I'm afraid I have to. I called Jenny Gil, Ruth Befall by Michelle Ballantyne, Michelle Ballantyne by the last speaker in the open debate. Thank you Presiding Officer and I remind members and the PLO to the Cabinet Secretary for Education as I may speak of some of my experiences as a teacher during my speech today. As we've heard from many of today's contributions youth football for most starts in school and me it started in primary school. I will remember the day in 1995 when I, as a striker for the P6 series primary girls team scored the winning goal against the P5 boys team. The thing is, Presiding Officer the boys thought they had it in the bag. Sure we were one year older but we were girls and they were boys. We annihilated them that day. I remember the buzz of adrenaline dodging the ball around the goalies feet the sweet look of disbelief in his eyes. So while today's debate is about youth football we will be cognisant of gendered stereotypes when it comes to sport and its accessibility. Indeed, in written evidence to this Parliament's Health and Sport Committee just this morning Scottish Rugby stated, for young females in general, sport is a social activity which is about fun, friendship and family. Well Presiding Officer I beg to differ. Sport for girls is as much about the winning as it is for boys. I'm proud that this Government is encouraging more girls to take up sport by maintaining the sports equality fund with £300,000 of investment and furthermore the establishment of a women and girls in sport advisory group shows the Government's commitment to showcasing the contributions of football clubs to delivering positive outcomes and it's Scotland that will hold the first ever women and girls sports week from the first to the 8th of October this year to promote the benefits of a more active lifestyle. GERFIC is the framework on which the school curriculum in Scotland is predicated. To get it right for every child we say in our schools that every child should have an equality of access when it comes to their learning. That is often not the case when it comes to sports. It is not the case often in our secondary schools where the availability of certain sport options is largely dependent upon the specialism of the PE teacher present or indeed the hockey playing modern studies teacher. Furthermore it remains the case that sporting opportunities in Scottish schools are gendered. When this petition first came to Parliament back in 2010 I was teaching in a school not far from here. For female pupils dance was the main sport. For boys it was rugby and football. Improving youth football shouldn't just be about the boys as sadly the image on the Scottish youth football website would have you believed today. We know that today more children are now active. The SNP manifesto commitment witnessed an increase in children during two hours or periods of PE a week from less than 10 per cent in 2004-2005 to 98 per cent in 2016. We know that PE has a positive impact on people's health. Furthermore sport helps to focus children in class, improving their attainment and their achievement, as Brian Whittle alluded to in his opening remarks. Anyone who has ever taught a class of teenagers after PE will know that to be the case. Child protection is a fundamental part of teacher training. In Fife Council for example a child protection annual update is provided to schools in June which is presented to all staff by the head teacher or the child protection coordinator. This includes janitorial staff, travel escorts and catering and cleaning staff. I accept that youth football is different in that respect as it is largely staff by volunteers. So let's look at the scouts. Their policy states all adults in regulated work as for example leaders undertake a PVG and are required to complete induction training prior to taking up their role. This includes mandatory safeguarding training. It is a requirement that safeguarding training be renewed at least every five years. However as my colleague Marie Todd has already alluded to today in an evidence session to this Parliament's health and sport committee earlier this month it transpired that two members two senior members rather of the Scottish Youth Football Association had no recent child protection training and only one of them held a valid PVG. The SYFA spoke about PVG training nights as if it were a hoop to be jumped through as opposed to a serious part of how you deal with training and supporting young people in football. The chairman of the Scottish Youth Football Association told the committee that the SYFA held child welfare nights but that those nights were not compulsory. Child welfare is a very different thing to child protection. As has been mentioned today by Rona Mackay, the SYFA has as of last September appointed a children's rights and wellbeing officer and that is to be welcomed. However within the same evidence session the SYFA could not tell me what impact that individual had had. They could not tell me if that individual worked with individual clubs to ensure child protection training was happening as a matter of course. Between both the SYFA and the SYFA there appeared to be a systemic lack of understanding of the child protection training which should accompany the PVG application process and that was epitomised by the consistent conflation of children's rights with child protection throughout the evidence session. The fundamental issue at play when it comes to improving youth football in Scotland is that there is currently no consistent approach to child protection training which should sit alongside any PVG application. As an individual who spent most of her professional life as a teacher I simply cannot believe in 2017 that child protection is not being taken seriously by those who work in youth football. Not only that but there appears to be a chronic lack of understanding about what child protection is. I do appreciate that the Minister for Sport has written to all sports and governing bodies in Scotland to ask them to reflect on their current policies and procedures and to check that these are adequate to protect children taking part in sport and I am sure that my fellow health and sport committee members would welcome any update that she is able to offer today on this. Presiding Officer, if we are to get it right on the child and the classroom then we should aspire to do so on the football pitch as well. Can I finish by congratulating the petitioners on their efforts to improve youth football for all? Thank you. Thank you very much Ms Gilruth. I call Michelle Ballantyne. Then we move to closing speeches. Ms Ballantyne, please. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I would like to echo the thanks to the petitioners for raising this very important subject and to the convener for bringing it to the chamber. Throughout Scotland and indeed the world there are many young girls who have at least once dreamed of scoring the winning goal for their club or country and childhood is the time for such dreams. We can and should encourage our children to pursue their ambitions but not blindly because when a child becomes involved in youth football perhaps when joining their first club or academy many will see this as the first step on the road to a professional career and to the fulfilment of their dreams however reality for most is different. Football is now a global business but the commercialisation of the game has been a process not an event. Gradually but evidentially the money circulating through the veins of the beautiful game has grown exponentially billions of pounds for Premier League TV rights six figure wages per week and almost 200 million for the transfer of a single player this summer and sadly football in Scotland has not been immune to this trend. The petitions committee has heard that children and young people are being treated as commodities by the very clubs who are supposed to nurture their talent and encourage their development. The mental and physical wellbeing of these young athletes often comes a poor second to the perceived needs of the club. We have seen this problem manifest itself particularly in the form of registration of players as young as 10. I understand completely the need to incentivise clubs to invest in the next generation but children are being tied to onerous arrangements and it is clear that there is a prevailing imbalance of power between club and child. My colleague Brian Whittle was absolutely right when he said in committee that clubs are trading on the dreams of young players and in this context I do not accept the submissions that Neil Donkaster made in his capacity as chief executive officer at the SPFL that the existence of an SFA of dispute resolution mechanism renders this system acceptable it does not. Put yourself in the position of a young player believing their dream is within their grasp. Would you complain when it could mean you are not selected for the team that you are sidelined altogether or released from your contract? The club holds all the cards in this registration agreement and we need to see action taken at the top level to address this. The need for further robust protection of young people in this context is particularly potent in the case of 15-year-olds tied to inflexible to three-year deals with clubs. As Rod Houston of the SSFA noted at committee back in December the years between 15 and 17 are a tumultuous time for many young boys they are faced with the twin realisations that a football career may never materialise and therefore their education exams actually count. To snare a young person to a rigid ideal for three years is neither fair nor constructive. I therefore agree with the former Children's Commissioner Tam Bailey that we should move toward a system of annual laps in registration and further towards empowering young people to terminate registration with notice. But Presiding Officer it is a deeper, more fundamental issue. It is clear from the abundance of contracts and compensation that football clubs and youth academies are casting their net far too wide in order to reap the financial benefits from as many young people as possible. When only 4% of so-called elite players go on to a professional career it is clear we are erecting a house of cards of speculation and false hope. The committee has heard evidence of young people putting education on the back burner because it doesn't matter. I'm going to be a footballer. For many the dream will not be realised. For many the dream will end in disillusionment with a sport they once loved. There is much to learn in this regard from the German academy approach tempering expectations smaller intakes, more investment per head and an unwavering and equivalent emphasis on education. I therefore welcome project brave and hope it will be the catalyst for the changes that are badly needed. In closing football is a source of joy and of course frustration if you support the wrong team. For young and old it is still our national game. It can unite families and friends colleagues and strangers from all backgrounds behind one badge or one flag and it has the power to do so much good for communities up and down our country. Just look at the game for Grenfell for example. The youth game is enveloped by profit orientation at the club level and in transience at the governing body. It's time to move away from diamond prospecting and return to a focus on young people playing the game, developing their skills and developing a lifelong love of the game. Because if we continue down this path of putting balance sheets ahead of boys clubs the beautiful game will become very ugly indeed. Thank you very much. I call Neil Bibby to close for Labour. Six minutes please, Mr Bibby. Thank you, Presiding Officer. I welcome the opportunity to close this debate on behalf of Scottish Labour on the petition that we have heard is the longest running open petition considered by the Public Petitions Committee. It's been seven years since William Smith and Scott Robertson lodged their petition on improving youth football and the imbalanced relationship between clubs and young people. Seven years, whether there has been some progress, but given that we are still talking about this petition it clearly tells us there's not been enough action in addressing these issues. It's over two years since the Scottish Commissioner for Children and Young People submitted both comprehensive research and a child rights impact assessment to the committee on the very same issue. I want to remind the chamber of what that submission said. Currently too many children are signing what they genuinely believe is a contract from as young as 10 years yet children's choice and control do not appear to be featured in the current system. The terms are not fully understood and the children and young people have no certainty of their rights. The current system recognises the investment of private companies in developing young players. However, the system does not recognise the investment of players and their families emotionally, practically and financially in developing young players' football skills. We have in front of us a petition that raises questions about the specific practices of football clubs and football authorities and the wider inequalities and disparities in Scottish football. Members have covered both of those issues across a range of contributions. I want to focus on the progression from grassroots football in communities, such as the places that I represent in Renfrewshire through to the youth system. We need to make sure that the rights of young people are respected throughout that process. As I am not a member of the Public Petitions Committee or indeed the Health and Sport Committee, I have not followed this petition as closely as other members. In preparing for this debate, I sometimes spend speaking with people in my own region who have first-hand experience of youth football, including parents and coaches. In Renfrewshire, such as other areas in Scotland, as Maurice Corry mentioned, there is an active community around the grassroots game with plenty of well-known long-running football teams. The kids who play themselves aspire to compete at the highest level and the parents want the best for their children. Of course they do. As local coaches like Ian McMillan, Thorne Athletic and Johnston pointed out to me, although they want their kids to go on to bigger and better things in terms of football, we also have to recognise the heavy pressures and the heavy demands that are being put on young people in football. Not only will they be training a couple of nights a week and then playing a couple of games at the weekend, that is a huge commitment in itself. There is a lot of travel involved and a lot of costs involved as well. It is not too bad for kids from my area, if they are playing for St Myrin or Morton, because that is not too far away, but there are a number of kids that are having to go to Motherwell, Hamilton, Kilmarnock and, further afield, at peak times. It means that their school day is different from other kids. It means that they get their tea later and their school life can suffer as a result. Opportunities should not be denied to young people because they are choosing to work through the youth system. Nonetheless, we have to recognise that league clubs provide the best gear and the best pitches, but they also have a duty to provide the best conditions in terms of paying in terms of all round support. It has also been said to me that too many kids from poorer backgrounds are actually missing out on opportunities. They are missing out because of problems with travelling costs or because they just want to play football with their mates. That must tell us that the current system is not working for everyone. James Kelly made an important point about participation in football. Regardless of whether young people make it in football or not, it is important that they have with clubs on too many occasions to be weighted against them. James Dornan and James Kelly have said that money in football is far too top heavy. Wayne Rooney, for example, is approaching retirement, is on £150,000 a week. On that basis, we think that he could pay a little more tax. Celtic, as well, is reported to be making £30 million from their participation in a league this year. There is plenty of money in football. It is not just getting shared out sensibly enough. If it was, we might have more support for local youth football teams. If it was, we might not have 16-17-year-old footballers in contracts that do not pay the minimum wage. It is a legal requirement and must be paid in Scottish football too. We have also discussed club academies registration and compensation system for younger children, a system that has been described as a transfer market in children. Over the years, concerns have been expressed both about regulated activity within the system and unregulated activity that some have said could be hidden from parents. There has to be proper monitoring and parents must have confidence that young people are not at risk of exploitation. Since public funds go into the game the Scottish Government could and should ensure that there is a kind of auditing and accountability that the petitioners have called for to shine a light on the disparities that have already been mentioned. Crucially, the minister should take action to challenge the SFA and SPFL to address the inequalities and injustices that too many young people sign up to in one-sided contracts. We also need to support grassroots football more generally. That means allowing young people in facilities. Many clubs in my community live week to week, month to month, and it is not easy just to ask the parents to keep on paying more. Not only are there concerns about payments to players, there are real worries about costs too. In my area, the recent Labour Administration on Inforcer Council reduced and then froze charges on football pitches for the past five years. They were right to do so after the former SNP council led by Derek Mackay had massively hyped up football charges in the area. We must sustain our facilities, but we cannot price youngsters off the football pitch. The petition also calls on the Scottish Government to develop a long-term plan to provide quality artificial surfaces. There is no doubt that facilities are getting better, but we all know that there is growing demand and the Scottish weather means that we need more artificial pitches. Again, I know from speaking to teams in my area that there is always a demand for pitches and more investment is needed. Council budgets have been slashed as a very strong case for the Scottish Government looking at ways of leveraging new investment into playing surfaces. I am not getting added on time today, unfortunately. Just in closing, we should properly fund our councils so that they can make those investments in football. Stop and the cuts to council budgets will help that. We should acknowledge that there are great many positives about the game in Scotland. There are more boys and girls playing, but there is much more we can do. We need to deliver fairness for young people in football from the grass roots through to young professionals signing with major clubs. We look forward to hearing more from the minister on her timetable for action to make sure that those matters are addressed. Miles Briggs. I am pleased to be able to make the closing speech in what I believe has been a good and useful debate and another positive example of how our Parliament's Public Petitions Committee can bring important issues to this chamber for thorough and more thorough discussion. I, too, commend the petitioners, William Smith and Scott Robertson, whose original petition in 2010, now the longest running open petition, still being considered by the committee, raised so many very important issues that have been subject to subsequent investigations by our Parliament. I also pay tribute to the past and present Public Petitions Committee members and the committee staff for the work that they have undertaken over a substantial period of time. My great-grandfather played football for Scotland, and every time he played Scotland won, beating England, Ireland and Wales. As members will sadly be aware, this wasn't actually recently, it was in fact 1884, the year the minister and my own football team, St Johnston, was founded. As a Vale of Leven player in 1889, he was headhunted by Blackburn Rovers, who was strengthening their side by buying the best young Scottish players. I am proud of the fact that he was part of the teams that won five FA Cups over eight years. I raised this point not just to tell a family story, but to highlight how his decision to play for an English team brought to the end his promising international career, as at the time Scotland did not select players playing in England teams. Time has indeed moved on, but I speak for members of the Health and Sport Committee that during the evidence and inquiries that we have undertaken, it has felt that Victorian attitudes still seem to dominate high levels of football in Scotland. As Brian Whittle and Michelle Ballantyme have set out clearly, the continuing concerns that members from right across the chamber have expressed about how the SFA and SPFL have appeared reluctant and intransigent in addressing key concerns such as the issue of signing of contracts with children under 16, the operation of compensation schemes and the lack of auditing of public funds of the SFA is a concern. As we have heard, the committee's investigations on these issues led to additional concerns emerging such as contracts between professional clubs and 16-17-year-olds that were contravening minimum wage legislation and payments between clubs that have been made beyond the parameters of the compensation scheme. We have talked about the critical importance of the safety of youngsters involved and referred to the health and sport committee's work around the child protection and sport inquiry which made a number of important recommendations and held the SFA and SYFA to account for the unacceptable failure in ensuring the PVG scheme was applied to all coaches and officials working with young players. As Liz Smith highlighted, those checks should of course also be carried out for football agents, engaged with children as soon as possible. While today's debate has at times focused on some of the negatives which exist around football, I also want to talk today about some of the fantastic examples of youth football schemes across our country and commend all those dedicated staff and volunteers who work with our young people week in, week out, helping to develop their confidence, skills, physical and mental health and wellbeing. With other health and sport committee members, I was pleased to visit the Spartans Community Football Academy in Pylton earlier this year. The work being undertaken by Spartans through their various programmes from their footy club where youngsters enjoy sport and a nutritional evening meal to their street football in a safe place or safe playground is outstanding and is making a real difference to many disadvantaged young people across North Edinburgh. I've been particularly impressed by the Spartans' work to tackle holiday hunger, a major concern which I've raised on several occasions with ministers and one which I believe if we put our mind to, we can address as a country bringing together every football and rugby club and supermarkets and sponsors to help deliver a similar service as Spartans are across every community. As Alex Cole-Hamilton has also highlighted, Spartans have blazed a trail on this issue with the club working with local schools to offer a summer holiday camp from 11.30 to 1.00 p.m. every day with a complementary lunch. Earlier in the year, I was also pleased to meet with Stephen Jordan of Street League in Edinburgh which is doing a brilliant work, it's doing a huge amount of work in supporting unemployed 16- to 24-year-olds to move into education, employment and training by combining professional football, coaching and employability and work and training skills. It's had many success stories and I pay tribute to all involved in this innovative and life-transforming programme. In concluding, Presiding Officer, I again welcome today's debate and hope additional parliamentary focus will indeed be put on to bring pressure on football authorities to respond more adequately and urgently to the petitioner's concerns which I know are clearly from this debate shared right across the chamber. I also put on record our strong support for youth football and all those who work in and volunteer at a grass-roots level. They are a real champion of so many of our communities and we need to recognise their dedication and support for so much good work and the role that they play in improving the physical and mental wellbeing of so many of our young people in Scotland now and in the future. Presiding Officer, I'm slightly dumbfounded by Miles Briggs' sporting lineage so 1884 was clearly a very good year for football but underneath his story there are many important points that he was making. Across the chamber this has been a very positive debate on the important role that football plays in Scottish life and most of us in the chamber are football fans and we all want our national game to flourish. Many of us have also acknowledged the benefits that physical activity brings and the power of sport to bring about positive change. Liz Smith talked about the beyond boundaries and I really enjoyed visiting as well. It's a really important point for the good work of our governing bodies including Cricket Scotland to try and do things innovatively to reach out to people. Maybe they will be taking cricket to James Kelly's constituency because that's absolutely the aim of beyond boundaries is to reach out to non-traditional areas of the country that would enjoy cricket and it's a fine sport in fact it was a cricket club St Johnston was a cricket club before it became a football club and we want to recognise that there's good work getting done by our governing bodies in terms of their social reach but there's also and people have acknowledged that in the debate today good work being done by football clubs and by their community trust The game changer from Hibs Morton, Montrose have just recently won an award lots of clubs doing fantastic work in their communities and health boards and local authorities in terms of promoting positive messages so while there are many positives however we do need to recognise that there are still areas of the game that could do with some improvement but we all want our national team and our clubs to succeed at the highest level but of course the rights of children protecting their welfare and human rights can and should be compatible with that outline ambition so let me repeat what I said earlier the child is paramount everyone in the chamber agrees that it should be the main consideration and we share the ambitions of the football authorities and the clubs for our national game we also share their determination to ensure that we develop the very best young footballers that we can however that must be done with the welfare of children at the heart of their considerations these issues are compatible and as I said in my opening remarks we are encouraging the clubs to invest in developing the next generation of elite Scottish footballers and we will continue to work with all who seek to achieve that but while of course members have recognised that there has been some progress over the seven years of the petition concerns remain in spite of those changes members mentioned continued restriction for playing with schools Claire Hawke and Colin Smyth raised the significant work that has been undertaken by the health and sport committee regarding the PVG checks and we absolutely welcome the committee's report and have been carefully considering the recommendations our current review of the PVG scheme is currently under way and within that we will consider any action necessary to ensure that we are doing all that we can to ensure that those taken part in sport are safe and enjoyable for children and regarding the point about stopping all funding to Scottish football sport Scotland's funding is conditional on safeguarding requirements and Colin Smyth I think outlined the broader and wider approach that that takes beyond just simply looking at PVGs and while we don't want to disadvantage the thousands of young people enjoying youth football and benefiting from Government investment we have to make sure that those improvements are necessary and must be made and aligned to that is the points around that and continued investment and there has been investment and of course we want to grow the game and we want to ensure that there is opportunity for young people to enjoy the sport since 2007 sport Scotland has invested over 74 million using national lottery and Government funding across its capital programme legacy 2014 act of places fund and cash back in the development for football and with partner contributions that total investment into football facilities was 399 million however that said we still need to make sure that people in all communities get access and opportunity to good high quality facilities to ensure that we grow the sport at a grass roots level James Dornan I think also raised the continued concerns that members have about the lack of parental understanding through the registration process and again I will also reiterate that while national minimum wage is reserved we are clear that all clubs must meet their legal obligations Brian Lamond The progress that has been made has been because of the petition and not despite it in fact there has been a lot of reluctance on behalf of the regulatory bodies but while the minimum wage is reserved and clubs have an obligation what role do you see for the regulatory bodies in ensuring that this exploitation is ended because too many families won't make a fuss because of the consequences for their young person and they are caught in the trap because of that I think that the member is absolutely right to raise that and raise it I wasn't saying that it was reserved just for the simple fact of saying that I was saying that despite that being the case we absolutely expect clubs to undertake their obligations and absolutely we'll work with anyone who wants to try and ensure that that progress is being made and we've also heard on record some of the efforts that have been made by the SPFL in moving that forward but the point remains that she's right to point out that that was brought to light in the parliamentary setting by the petition and for that we should put on record our thanks but of course the main and fundamental issue that members raised was what the former children's commissioner termed as that power imbalance for the young and up and coming players and we have emphasised strongly to both the SPFL and the SPFL that concerns on this issue and other additional concerns raised through the petition must be taken seriously. Scottish football must ensure the rights of children and young people are reflected in all of its activity and for me that means while being cognisant of the restraints placed on any external influence on the governance of our domestic game I'm also cognisant of article 4 and the role of government in this children only get one shot at childhood and if a child or young person only gets one shot at fulfilling their dream as a footballer we must ensure that those guards are in place to ensure that this is positive, that it's empowering and that it helps to develop new sporting talent and we have an opportunity and while not an explicit timescale of work it does I hope give an indication and an outline of a significant package of measures and work that will help develop our approach going forward we'll certainly reflect on the reach of our programme for governments commitment to the UNCRC and I've asked my officials as I said earlier in a response to discuss those issues further with UEFA to make clear our overarching interests is with the wellbeing of children I'm also keen to firm up my offer of a round table meeting to follow a collective examination of next steps the rule changes have now been in place for a full season so it's the right time to convene and explore in more detail how effective these changes and in particular young persons wellbeing panels have been and discussing the remaining concerns with all interest parties and consider the best way forward there's also an opportunity to build on the progress made by the SFFA and SPFL and to explore opportunities presented through Project Brave ahead of its implementation next year and perhaps alongside that consider the examples from other countries I think Iceland was one that was mentioned and furthermore I'll carefully consider the recommendations of the petitions committee when it comes forward with its report looking back I'll conclude minister please sorry I apologise there's a full package of measures that are in place that will allow us to develop an approach that will bring about the improvements and build very much on the improvements that have been brought by the petitioners themselves so it's right and proper that we continue to work across parties across party political divides across club allegiances works with clubs, work with the governing bodies to make sure that I think collectively we can bring about the pace of change that's required to make the improvements that children and young people are nurtured, respected and valued through their progression to either just enjoy simply a game of football or if they are lucky to be able to go and progress in elite performance and hopefully score that winning goal for Scotland in a cup final sometime soon so thank you very much and thank you to the petitions committee for their work and of course to the petitioners as well thank you and I call on Angus MacDonald to wind up the debate on behalf of the committee thank you I'm pleased to be able to sum up what has certainly been an excellent and interesting debate and I'm pleased to note that the petitioners Scott Robertson and Willie Smith are here today following proceedings now there can be no denying that football plays an important role in Scottish society whether that's at the elite professional level as recreation for adults or as we focused on this afternoon youth football as the committee convener indicated in our opening remarks and others have mentioned in the course of the debate the petition on improving youth football is the longest running petition currently being considered by the public petitions committee and having also served on the public petitions committee in the previous session I'd like to say a little in my closing remarks about the consideration that's been given to the petition since 2010 as members will be well aware the committee seeks to work on a consensual basis for whatever possible and we have a good track record on that I'm sure we all agree the fact that the petition remains open is a reflection of the fact that in different sessions of the Parliament members from across the political spectrum have not been satisfied that we've reached the best possible outcome when talking about a petition having been on going for so long it's understandable if some question in eyebrows are raised but very simply we would not be doing our jobs if we did not continue to push for improved outcomes where we think that these can be delivered consideration of public petitions is an iterative process and we've now considered this petition at 27 separate committee meetings and in that time there have been eight oral evidence sessions and consideration given to many pieces of written evidence and there have been periods in the seven years where consideration has been paused for a number of months to allow very substantial work to be done if for example the working party review carried out by the SFA, SFL and SPL in 2012 and 2013 and the work undertaken by the now former commissioner for children and young people, Tam Bailey Mr Bailey has continued to maintain a focus on the issue of youth football since he left that office which is to be welcomed His on-going interest highlights that the concerns underpinning the committee's work are about protecting the rights and welfare of our children and young people and since undertaking an assessment of registration procedures from a child rights perspective Mr Bailey's position has changed to the point where he now calls for external regulation and I don't think Mr Bailey would have made that call lightly nor does the committee continue its work on this lightly so as today's debate has made clear there are some issues of fundamental concern however before I go any further I'd like to say I'm grateful to Brian Whittle for highlighting how it can be done and that there is good practice out there that can be followed In the course of the debate members including James Dornan Lewis McDonnell, Claire Hawking on behalf of the Health and Sport Committee Fulton MacGregor, former committee member Maurice Corry and too many speakers to mention but all gave excellent contributions to today's debate Some have raised concern which I share that the SFA and SPFL have confirmed that they do not monitor contracts between professional football clubs and individual players However, as Tam Bailey and the petitioners have rightly pointed out the SFA and SPFL also claim to investigate all instances of non-payment of the national minimum wage that come to their attention however we've seen no evidence of these investigations and as we know, HMRC has previously investigated some instances of breaches of the national minimum wage and HMRC is now engaged in a wider investigation of the contracts between professional clubs and 16-17-year-olds that contravene minimum wage legislation which highlights the complete lack of action on the part of the SFA or SPFL on these issues I would agree with the speakers Rona Mackay and James Dornan amongst others who have suggested that the intransigence of the SFA and the SPFL has made this one of the longest if not the longest running petitions in the life of this Parliament It's taken six years for the SFA that children signed to professional football clubs should be able to play for their school football team However, as the petitioners rightly pointed out there's no monitoring framework in place to ensure SFA guidance is upheld by professional football clubs However, that said there's been a fair degree of consensus in this afternoon's debate during which it's clear the chamber fails there is a degree of lack of governance by the SFA This debate has been useful in setting out the issues of concern however, the petition will return to the committee setting the committee setting for further discussion In concluding this debate I'd like to set out the next steps that the committee intends to take In the coming weeks we'll be taking up the invitation to visit a number of club academies This will allow us to hear from players parents and coaches about their experiences and perceptions of the current systems and I'm glad that these visits will allow us to see clubs of different sizes and with differing academy setups I'm sure all members of the committee will find these visits of benefit personally I'm looking forward to visiting the Forth Valley Academy and hopefully the one at Ross County in the not too distant future Once those visits have taken place we'll consider the petition again to report back on the discussions at the visits and to reflect on the issues raised in this debate It's the committee's intention to then produce a draft report on the petition which will allow us to set out our conclusions and recommendations about what further action we would like to see taken and by whom As always, we welcome any contributions that other members of this Parliament and members of the public may wish to make to inform us, as members of the committee in those next steps But in closing, Presiding Officer I think that every single contribution has been excellent today and we'll look forward to further work on this petition in the near future Thank you very much, Mr MacDonald and that brings us to decision time There's one question to be put as a result of today's business The question is that motion 7801 in the name of Johann Lamont on PE1319 on improving youth football in Scotland be agreed Are we all agreed? We are agreed and that concludes decision time We'll now move to members' business in the name of Jamie Greene on GP recruitment in West Kilbride Thank you