 from our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California. This is a CUBE Conversation. Hi, and welcome to the CUBE. I'm your host, Sonia Tagare, and we're here at the Palo Alto CUBE studios for an amazing conversation about women in tech and bringing men into the conversation. With us today is our guest, Ava Helen, who is the CEO and founder of EQ Inspiration and the board director of PrinterLogic. Welcome to the CUBE. Thank you so much for having me. So let's get started. So give us a brief overview of your background. So I was actually in tech for close to two decades. I came from Sweden in the mid-90s and joined a hardware company here in Silicon Valley and started selling hardware. One thing led to the next, and then I was part of starting two software companies, both with good exits. The last one we exited in 2015 when it was acquired by Citrix and the name of that company was Sambolic. So I was deep in the trenches of tech for many, many, many years. That's very inspiring. And from tech you went to being an advocate for women in tech, so tell us a little bit about that. Well, it was interesting. I mean, I was a woman the whole time myself, but I didn't take the time to reflect over a lot of what the other women were experiencing. When you run a business, your head is down and you work really, really hard all the time. So I didn't come up for air very often. But as we had been transitioned, we were on the East Coast and we were transitioned back to Silicon Valley. I started to really network as much as I could and met a lot of women and joined a lot of organizations and went to tons of events. And I thought they were fantastic and it was great energy and women sharing things and stories with each other and supporting each other. But I couldn't figure out where the guys were. And I'd been working in this industry for so long. I knew that all the decisions were made by men and I didn't understand why they weren't part of the discussion. So I went to a couple of guys and I said, well, if I start something called women in tech events for guys, will you come? And they're like, absolutely, we would love that. So said and done a couple of years ago, I did my first EQ inspiration, which is an event where 50% of the audience is men, 50% are women. And in a typical format, I will have experts or in the beginning, I wasn't an expert myself at all. So I would have experts come in and speak and then eventually I could take over some of those pieces, talking about equality, what things good things to do for women and so on. And then I would always have a panel of men that I would ask, what are you actively and actually doing for women in the workplace? Your peers or your colleagues, your staff, how are you helping them? And all these amazing stories were coming out. So I thought, hmm, how can I get more of those stories and make them available to a broader audience? So that's kind of where I was in the beginning of last winter. And what spurred you to become a part of this movement? Was it a situation, an experience you had in your workplace or just something you saw in the larger women in tech or community? Well, I think I'd had my own experiences, obviously, since I'd been in the industry for so long and every woman has a way to tackle being the only woman in the room, the only one in the meeting, the only one at dinner and so on. We all have ways to tackle and deal with that. But like I said, I hadn't really reflected much over what other women were experiencing. So just by hearing what all these other women were dealing with, I thought I kind of need to help here because I'm not saying that my ways of dealing with it were the best or the way that I would recommend for others to be. I can be super pushy and very assertive and a lot of women are not like that. So my model didn't necessarily work for them. So I had to try to figure out like, how can I actually help them? And because there are so many ways that women are supporting each other already that are functioning really, really well, forums for talking about delicate things and more open things, I wanted to bring the men into the conversation because they're ultimately 50% of the population and a lot more than that in the workplace. So I just thought we needed to engage them to make them feel more safe in how they are supporting us. And do you find that the men who do come to these events, are they more at the leadership level or are they varied, who generally shows up? So it varies a lot, but if I could take a step back just to what I did when I said, okay, let me find out more of these stories because that will answer your question. So I interviewed, I did 60 hour long interviews with men in tech at all levels of the organization from CEO to individual contributors. And then I took all of that scripted material and I broke these people down into seven characters of men. And I say generously because we as women have been categorized into two categories by most men for thousands of years. So seven characters with different names. And at the top of what I call my matrix, we have Mark James Samir that are advocates for women. Then we have Memo Allen Chris that are allies of women. And at the bottom of the matrix, we have Richard who is opposed to change and concern that women will take over men's positions in the workplace. But by doing that categorization, I can see that it doesn't matter if it's a leader or if it's an individual contributor, it's a range of men that come to my events, but typically they're sitting at the higher end of the matrix, not the lower part because they're still a little hesitant to thinking, well, what can I do? How can I help? Right, so it doesn't matter exactly what their exact position is, but how far up the matrix they are or how far low the matrix is. Yes, exactly, exactly. So can you tell us a little bit more about the different categories in the matrix and why you created, you found those seven categories? Yeah, sure, so if we start from the top, the top character is called Mark and Mark is, he's really an expert. He has been working in HR or he's a diversity consultant or he can be a man who has lots of friends and he's very comfortable speaking up on behalf of women in front of these men, but he doesn't just address women or mixed groups, he actually talks directly to groups of men. The next category is James. James is a change agent, he's a leader, he has a very visible presence in the organization and he will take on things like culture change. If he notices in his organization that the culture is not exactly what it should be to promote equality, he will actually get to the bottom of it and dig deep to figure things out and solve them, maybe by hiring an external consultant like a Mark. The next level is Samir, he's the sponsor and there are lots of women out there that have had great sponsors and often at the EQ Inspiration events, I'll bring up a woman who talks about a sponsorship story. The sponsors make women visible and they also put their own name on the line. They're very comfortable promoting women and often they have experienced being an outsider themselves at some point, so they're very empathetic. The next level, now we get into the allies and the allies are Memo, Al and Chris. Memo is the mentor. Mentorship is a very interesting thing because it's a big step up from the level below. It really is not necessarily promoting but really asking a woman, what can I do to help? How can I help you? And there's a lot of informal mentorships that are going on and there are lots of formal mentorship programs out there. It's really important to formalize mentorship programs in organizations where there is a greater fear among men to do something that's not right. And I think that a lot of the informal mentorships are suffering because of the Me Too movement and all the negative press that we have out there. The next two allies are Al and Chris and these two categories have the greatest potential to actually grow into something bigger because the objective of course is to climb from one step to the next on the matrix. And Al is a happy go lucky guy. He says, I love working with women. I think it's fantastic. Just tell me what to do. I would love to help but he's not necessarily sure what to do. And Chris, the guy below him is, he gets uncomfortable more easily. So if a situation gets a little sticky in the office when they start talking about equality or something like that he might actually withdraw and close his door and say, no, I don't want to be part of this discussion. But if you talk to Chris he's already helping somebody who's close to him. Maybe his sister, maybe his partner, his wife or his daughter. And it's really interesting when you get to the point where they understand and they realize they go, oh, I am actually doing something. Maybe it's not to somebody in the, you know helping somebody in the workplace but maybe it's somebody who's really close to me. And then Richard at the bottom of the matrix he's the chauvinist and he's there and there's lots of them and they're opposed to the change. And in the beginning I was thinking maybe I just leave him out of the discussion but he's a really important reference point for the rest of the characters. And so I like that how you said that it's we want to have men go up the levels to essentially become a Mark or James or Samir but suppose you have a Richard in your workplace is there any hope for him ever becoming a Mark or is it even likely? Well, so the important thing is here you know, I'm not a big fan of the kinds of workshops where you throw all men into the same room and you give them the same message because you lose 70% of the audience right away. So the key thing here is to make them understand that you can climb one step on the ladder and that may be enough. And if you choose to stay where you are but as long as you're getting a little bit more awareness of what you're doing, that's okay too. But we're not trying to get Al or Chris the people who are towards the bottom to become Marks we just want them to climb one step. And Richard, he's absolutely not a hopeless case. The thing with him is there you can't tell him what to do but you need to find his motivator. What is it that motivates him to start thinking outside of the little comfort zone that he's in right now? And so maybe that motivator is maybe he does have a sister who's experienced a difficult situation. And so how does that relate to what's going on? Maybe his team is not coming up with any new ideas. So having the discussion of diversifying the team he might be ready for that one. But just finding his motivator is how we get him to at least get up to the level of Chris. And you mentioned that by the year 2030 you want 50-50 gender equality. Now for people who are at leadership positions who are Richards who maybe do have some hope that they might change into even a Chris but they still aren't on board with 50-50 gender equality. What do you say to those men and how can women deal with those men in their workplace? Well, it's that, you know, is the pie this big or is there two pies or is the pie growing? 50-50 is sort of something that a lot of people that are working towards equality are saying. Now, I'm really trying to support women in the workplace to get to higher levels. And we are more than 50% at the very bottom level of most industries and most working positions. And we know that I think it's 53% of all graduates today are women. So it's not so much we need to be 50-50. It's just that we need to change the parameters a little bit and change the format and change the expectations of how we lead our organizations so that it's not always done in a man's way. But rather something that's more accepting towards not just women, but all minorities that haven't had a place there before. And what do you say to somebody who's a Richard? Well, if he's open to having the discussion and conversation, try to meet him where he is and say, we're not taking your job away from you but we will give a woman the opportunity to apply for the job at the next level alongside with you. And it's the most qualified that will win. But the way that the criteria are set right now and the qualifications and expectations are set right now are really created very much so for men. So they end up winning that battle every single time. And so that's what, you know, and Chris can't or Richard can't change that. That needs to be changed from a higher level. And also alongside with them, worrying that we're going to take their jobs also because of the Me Too movement, they might be worried, oh, I don't even want to work with women because I'm worried they're going to say I harass them or do something to them. So I'd rather just not even bother it with it. So with those kind of people, how would you try to convince them that they're safe with women or that it's okay for them to be a part of this discussion? So Chris, who is just above Richard on the matrix, he supports women who are very close to him. So like I said, family members or maybe it's somebody, a woman on his team that he's worked with for a long time. And by making him aware that he's already supporting people that are very close to him and he's super comfortable in those relationships and that kind of support that he's providing, I'm saying, what if you were to take that support to somebody that you don't know as well? Maybe there's a woman in the extended team or next to you and you say to her, what can I do to help you? Is there anything I can do to help? And then treat that relationship the same way that you're treating the relationship that you have with that family member or whatnot. Make sure that it's completely transparent. Let the door be open. Make sure that you're inviting other people to the meetings, sit in an open area. Do things that are completely transparent, that way nobody will ever question, what your motives are, why you're doing this or if you're suggesting or saying something that's inappropriate. Right, right. And do you feel that more men are coming to these events or do you think that there's still a lot of progress to be made? So when I started this a couple of years ago, I said, okay, within a year, most of the women's organizations here in the Bay Area will have a track for men and it's starting to happen. So I'm so excited about that. I'm really, really happy that EQ Inspiration is not the only place to go, but that there's other organizations that are doing the same thing. And I will continue to, beyond the EQ Inspiration format, my objective is to go and speak at as many tech events as possible, where I know that the majority of the audience will continue to be mostly men for at least the near future. Hopefully that will change quickly. But now that I have material and I have a method and I know that there is a way to move men and make them individual contributors and make them excited about this, I want to bring that message directly to the core audience while all of the women's organizations that are sitting here in Silicon Valley will continue to build their tracks for men. That's amazing and you also mentioned that your material is coming out in spring, so what's next for you? Well, I mean, so writing a book is a difficult thing and for all the men who are listening to this, it will be a very accessible, easy book, not a lot of words, some pictures, images, hopefully it's gonna be a nice feel to it, so people will be happy to have it lying around. And really for me, it's trying to create a language that both men and women are comfortable with, having names on these characters, jokingly being able to talk about it, deep dramatizing the whole conversation around this. There's a big seriousness to it, don't get me wrong, but for what I'm trying to do, I really want to lighten it up a little bit and make sure that people don't feel intimidated, threatened, judged or anything like that by it. And so once the book becomes available in the spring, I'm hoping that tech organizations will pick it up and use it as conversational material, both for women's work groups, for mixed groups. One woman called me and said, I have found a great use case. She specializes in going into organizations that already have programs and processes set up to move the needle, but not enough is happening. And then she can use this material to actually plug in and engage the men more deeply. So I think the book will have its life and with the book, I will make sure that it gets in front of as many people in tech as possible, both men and women. And then I'm hoping to be able to speak about it in as many difficult places as possible because that's how I grow. Well, that's very heroic and it's such a great support for the women in tech community to have someone who's willing to kind of go out of their comfort zone and talk to men about women in tech issues when that's really not happening. So really appreciate all the work you're doing and thank you so much for coming in today. Thank you so much for having me. She's Ava, I'm Sonia. Thanks so much for watching theCUBE. Till next time.