 Right. And I have, there's a copy of that. I can pull up when we're ready. Well, I'm looking at one too. So. But it's a new hearing. So we'll. Yeah, I don't have that language that I'm supposed to read. Oh, here I have it. What's the planning on doing this today? Okay. You want me to open the meeting? Yeah. Let me just, um, all, I'm going to promote, um, I don't know what to say. Mark, you and Tom to panelists so you can speak after the preamble. Mark, you're. Tom, there you go. So, all right. We have three attendees and. All right. I think you're all set. Jen, if you want to start. Okay. So opening historical commission meeting at what is it? 405. We've taken over my screen. So I can't tell. Okay. So let me begin with the public hearing before we go to the regular meeting agenda. Right. Yep. Okay. So, um, let me do the preamble before we start the public hearing. Uh, in accordance with provisions of MGL chapter 40 a and article 13 demolition delay of the emmer's zoning bylaw. The emmer's historical commission is holding this public hearing to provide an opportunity for interested citizens to be heard regarding the following demolition application request. 205 South Pleasant street 14 a one nine four. Or Amherst college. Request to demolish a circa 1862 single family home was Greek revival style and friend gable and, um, Massachusetts historical society, foreign B inventory AMH dot three five zero. Um, everyone has a copy. Nate, do you want to put up the copy of it? The request. The demolition request. Sure. Let's do that. We just scroll through the. You need to verify our, our presence. With the zoom meeting. I was thinking I would do that at the regular meeting, but I can do that now. Should we do a roll call? Sure. Okay. So, um, Let's see. Everyone's here except Jane, right? So. Two James. Two James. That's right. Um, so. Jane A and Jane B. Jane Shuffler and Jane. Walt are missing. Um, so we have Pat out. I don't. Cause you're present. I'm telling you, you're present. Robert Ford. And then guests. And. Jan Marquardt. Acting as chair today. Um, So back to the public meeting. First we'll start with anything that. Um, members of Amherst college who are here want to say, is that Carly? I think that's Tom and Mark. Oh, are they here? Okay. Yes. Okay. So anything you want to tell us about this particular building, Tom and Mark. Here's that location. It's a little history right here. Do you have them muted? Oh, um, I can unmute yourself. Tom or Mark. Sure. Okay. Yeah. Oh, go. Tom, did you want to start or? No, go ahead, Mark. I'm happy to. So, um, 205 South pleasant street is the building. Um, directly to the south of one 97, where we were before near the barn. Um, uh, years, we can tell regarding the existing structure. Um, it doesn't have, uh, really nothing popped up. Uh, obviously it's an, it's an older building. Um, the architectural styles all on the application form. It's around 150 years old. I forget the exact number. Um, and it's really right next to the existing property line. And, uh, where we are in the project, uh, is that we're, we're still in the concept design. Um, and we're moving back and forth in the concept design, as these things often do. Um, and what became pretty clear to us, uh, a little while ago is that the design of the building is going to be. Interfere with the location of the house. Um, in pretty definite terms. So that's when we filed the demolition permit with you. Um, and that's why you're sort of seeing these demolition permits trickle in a little bit as we sort of. Uh, become convinced that that's necessary. That's when we approach you about it. Um, I can say that the, uh, the college of architecture, um, I can say that the, uh, the college is looking at, um, alternatives to demolition. Um, I gave a tour to a gentleman who would like to remain anonymous. Um, last week. Um, and he was very positive. Um, it was probably, I don't know if I'm exaggerating too much to say it's a rough verbal agreement to move the structure. Um, but that was definitely where he was headed. And he was very positive about the desire to do it and the ability to do it. Um, it was relatively straightforward. Um, for now, he'd like to remain anonymous because he's sort of working through his own issues that have, um, I couldn't speak to, uh, if, if I wanted to, I don't fully understand them. Um, But I thought that that sort of, uh, I thought it was, it was something that was going to be helpful. Um, to kind of move that motion that, that, uh, uh, desire and possibility to move the house was worth talking about or at least informing you of great. Tom, do you have anything to say? Okay. Any other comments then before we discuss. Um, I just have one question. Have you advertised for the house to be moved or. No. No, so this was something that came word of mouth. Yes, word of mouth I guess is a good way to describe it. Okay. But through internal channels. Okay. I'm sorry. I was going to add one thing, but I hadn't unmuted myself. So that's why it sounded like I was like, no, I got nothing else. I was a bit surprised, I must say. Right. I got a platform. I have to speak. So we are very hopeful that that this house is going to be able to get relocated. It was a kind of a tough revelation to realize that it really couldn't stay. And it's in its current location. And, you know, we kind of went back and forth for a while, which is part of the reason that this, that it wasn't all done at the same time. And our understanding though, is that the, the application from a permitting perspective is, it kind of goes through the same route regardless. So we're still here saying demolition permit. We're still here. We're still here. We're still here. We're still here. Even if it turns out to be a relocation. I believe that's correct. That's what, that's what we've been informed of. And you're not actually selling it. You're just trying to find somebody to take it, right? A dollar. Okay. Okay. Any other information, Nate that you need to give us or anybody else? Any other comments before we discuss. Okay. You know, the, you know, there's the inventory form that was sent along. You know, there really isn't much in terms of the history of the house. I did send a picture from the, you know, late, late 1880s or 1890s. So it's been a part of the streetscape for a while. You know, as the form says, it's, you know, front gabled side hall that, you know, there's. There's, you know, you know, there's a lot of, you know, there's a lot of, you know, there's a lot of, you know, there's a lot of, you know, but in terms of ownership or. Anything else that really isn't, you know, good. I didn't find anything that would stand out. So, you know, there's some ownership mentioned here. You know, heavy Henry Abbott and it was sold to. To the person who probably built the house. So there isn't, but in terms of someone living there, that was prominent. I didn't find anything. Okay. Commission members, any other questions? Okay. Well, I can close the public hearing and we can start our deliberations about the. Well, we got, we need a motion for that. But before we do that, there's some members of the public here. I don't know. They have any comment. I don't know if we can see, I can see them. If anyone has comments, you can raise your hand and zoom. I'm not sure that anyone looks like they are. How many people do we have me? There's six attendees. Okay. So I can't see them. Is that right? Right. I can see them. Okay. Yeah. It doesn't look like James joined us. Let me check my email one more time. Jane. So we have six additional members of the public. Yes. Okay. Great. So yeah, I'm not sure there's any, anyone raising their hand for comments right now. Okay. Once I take a motion to close the public meeting and we move to deliberation of the. Significance of the structure, then that's the end for comments. So anyone in the public. Or you from adverse college, this is kind of your last chance. Okay. Okay. So members of the public, if you have questions or comments, you could. You can speak now. I'll entertain a motion to close the public hearing. I make a motion to close the public hearing. Second. Okay. All in favor. From the historical commission. We have to have a roll call just to make sure for this. Okay. Okay. Pat. Present. Yes. I have to say yes. Yes. No. Yes. I'm sorry. Yes. I'm spacing. Yes. Robin. Yes. Patty. Yes. And I say yes. Okay. So, um, we'll move to our standards for designation as a significant structure. Section 13, four. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. There we go. Okay. And I think I have to read this even though we can all see it. Right. Okay. So the historical commission cell determined that a structure be designated as a significant structure. If it meets one or more of the following criteria. 13.40 is listed on or as within an area listed on the national register of historic places or is the subject of a significant structure. Um, is it? I don't think so. No, it's less, you know, it's been inventory, but it's not in a national register. Right. So it's not that close too. Okay. Uh, 30 port for one, the commission determines the structure meets one or more of the following three criteria. And here's where we go through. Uh, historical architectural and geographic importance. So we start with, um, historical importance. Uh, the structure meets the criteria of historical importance. If it has character, interest or value as part of the development, heritage or cultural characteristics. As a town of Amherst, the Commonwealth of Massachusetts or the nation. Can we, can we shoot these together so that we do, um, historical importance and consider all of the criteria for that. Um, I think we did that last time. Right. But I think we discussed each, each, uh, criteria. And then there was a vote on historic at the end. Okay. So go down and discuss each one. Okay. Yeah. I believe we're supposed to do them item by item, but if you want to group the discussion, you know, at the end, we can, but I guess I need a yes or no. Or maybe on each one as we go. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. First yes on, uh, zero. Well, let's just do that one. Cultural. I'm arguing for cultural. Zero. Characteristics of the town. Yes. Okay. I think it doesn't. I say no. Okay. How do you any. Really. The other. I'd go with cultural. Okay. I'm leaning that direction. Although there may be things that fit better, but at the moment let's leave that as fun. We're possibly leaning towards. Okay. Next one is the site of a historic event. As far as we know. No. Okay. Is identified with a person or group of persons who had some experience in the community. Yeah. It's always such a funny one. Or exemplifies the cultural, political, economic, social or historic heritage of the community. I think it might be possible to argue something around, um, economic heritage in terms of maybe the tendencies that were existing in the. Documentation about the house, but without much more information. That would be rich and interesting. Yeah. It's, it's. Yeah. Middling size, middling level. Yeah. Structure in terms of economic. Housing. Right. That way too. So, yeah. How do we define social heritage? I think that would be if something significant happened there. We're like the housing for a group of specific workers, or if a huge rally occurred in it or, you know, right. Um, so any feeling when we're the other on this one? Yes. No, maybe. Uh, no wish. Yeah. Say maybe. No. Okay. So for historical importance, where do we stand? Um, You know, if it meets one or more, one or more of these, these four criteria that would have cultural. Um, or historical significance. So important. So. You know, typically the commission would vote to say, you know, does or doesn't it have historical importance and. I'm usually the one who talks a lot and since I'm running the meeting, I'm leaving it up to you all. So. I can't see the other characteristics, which helps me kind of figure out where, I mean, I'm thinking. Uh, I'm thinking more. So, all right. Oh, now you've gone too high. Keep going down. A little bit more. A little bit more. Yeah. And stop. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I can't see what you see. Um, I think that I want, I'm thinking of. When I said yes for the first one for 13, one, four, one, zero, zero, it's more 13, four, one, one, zero. It's more, it seems more related to the architectural importance as a particular style and a. And a particular time period. So I would. I would lean away from historical importance. Um, and here's the, um, you know, historical. Significance on the, um, here's the architectural description on the inventory form. And then the historical doesn't have too much. Uh, with it. Right. Yeah. Oh, nice little distraction. Uh, so I'm going to go for a, I'm going to go for a no. Okay. Does everybody concur with that? And we'll move on to architectural and. We can always go back if you change your mind, but at the. Yeah, I'd like to change my mind. I agree with a no. Okay. So let's currently say no for historical importance, which means that all four of those get a no. Correct. And moving on to architectural importance, the structure meets the criteria of architectural importance. If it first one portrays the environment of a group of people and an era of history characterized by a distinctive architectural style. Meaning yes. Yeah. Oddly worded. Yeah. Simply means that, you know, did the people of Amherst during a particular period live in this type of house. I think is what it's, you know, it's just a style that was characteristic of a time period in Amherst. I would say so. I don't think the style is particularly characteristic. I think it's. Utilitarian for the time. Well, I think the utilitarian of the time is what's, is what's. Right. Characterizing. You know what I mean? Yeah. Typical of that was that time for a house that people would build them. Right. This is what I'm thinking. Yeah. Yeah. Even if she built it as a lodging house, but, but typical is not the same as distinctive. No. Oh, I guess what I'm saying is this. Yeah, you're right. It's typical. It's not distinctive. Tell you a really funny anecdote when I was on the. Frank Lloyd Wright building conservancy for a long time. I was a conservancy. I was a conservancy. I was a conservancy organization. And at one point I was having a very. Very low key conversation with people about the house that I lived in. And it was a great revival. Structure, but they turned to me and they said, but Hetty, it's really a farmhouse, isn't it? So I think. I think that's what's making it hard for us. Is that we're looking at a building that. I mean, I don't know if it's, you know, I don't know if it's, you know, I don't know if it's a utilitarian, but it's, but it has some things around the front door. And in terms of its. Planning plan or, you know, inside that. That make it. Characteristic of Greek revival style. Even if it's not a very high style. Yeah. I don't know that the word distinctive is meant to mean. Distinctive in a high style sense, but distinct like a distinct style. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's really taken two different ways. Right. Yeah. It's not like it has a distinction as something special. It's just different from others. Right. And the, and the question is more about the group of people who would. Who would live in this house, right? It's not about the house itself. We go back to the definition. So it's. The environment. History. Right. Right. Right. If you were to, if you were to, if you were to live in a house, you would have to live in a house that looks like this. Right. Whereas the next question gets more to the specifics of the actual house. Right. And so I go with, I don't think it's distinctive. Architectural style in the true sense of something that stood out at the time and people noticed and talked about. You know, it. Anyway, I don't think it's distinctive. I think it's distinctive. I think it's distinctive. It is distinctive. I think it's distinctive. That way. Okay. I'm reading distinctive differently then because I think it is. Extinctive of the environment, a group of people in that era would have lived in. Yeah. The word might be better. Just saying if it was word of distinct, that might be more. Suggestive of what they're going for in this particular. Yeah, they just leave it open to interpretation, we're trying to decide what it means. Right. Well, when you when you look at it, yeah, okay, right. Strawberry, where do we stand on this one? I'm a yes. Petty? Yeah, I'm a yes on one and then probably. Well, we're just doing one. Yeah, okay. Pat? I'm a no. Okay. I'm a yes. So let's mark that at the moment. Tentatively yes. The next one for 111 embodies those character distinguishing characteristics of an architectural type. And no. I'm looking for Jan's input on this because when you have a plain building, how do you define that? There was something in the record that talked about the front of it. Right, which says nicely detailed doorway with engaged plaster sidelines. Yeah. Transom. Well, I mean, when you say plain, plain to be a very clear style. Right. That's what I'm saying. I mean, I don't want to, I want to advocate for under, well, I want to understand and I think advocate for not getting hung up in something having to be flourishing to be distinguishing, but at the same time, I'm curious what your input is on what the distinguishing characteristics would be of this particular architectural type. Well, I think it, I mean, it said, even says something in there about 50 in the anniversary. I mean, it's, it's to me, it's a type of revival farmhouse style that is, as it says, standard during that period. And I think it does represent that style. It does just, it is, it is representing a characteristic of the Greek revival farmhouse style. I don't know. So I'll leave it a yes there then. Eddie, what do you think? Yeah, I think, I think it's a yes me on that one too. And I think that's more of a yes than the, than the one we just discussed prior to this. Okay. So we have pretty much concurrence on that for one, one, two. May as well go. Oh, there we go. Is the work of an architect master builder or craftsman crafts person whose individual work has influenced the development of town. As far as we know, right, not that we know of. Yeah, there was no particular name associated. No. So for one, one, three contains elements of architectural design, detail, materials, or craftsmanship, which represents a significant innovation. No, no, no. I mean, then if you had like, when you're trying to make a distinction between plain and some sort of masterpiece, this is where it would happen. Okay. So we have two yeses in this category. And therefore, we're basically saying it does have architectural importance. So let's move on to the final one, geographic importance. The structure meets the criteria of geographic importance if the site is part of or related to a square park or other distinctive area. Yeah. No. I always have trouble with these. I mean, think of that part of Pleasant Street, all those houses that Amherst College has so kindly restored and kept in place and made into a sort of town center of historic homes. But that's why I would vote yes on two on 121 is that it's sort of the architectural type. Yes, that it sort of reads as part of what Nate said of this kind of coherent streetscape with different architectural styles consistent with Western New England and in the middle of the 19th century, you know, that that's right. Yeah, but it's probably what I'm pointing towards is more the second one than this. Yeah, it's not part of a square or a park, even though it's is it is this is a stupid question. Is it it's an it's an Amherst College building. So it's it's now part of a campus, right? Well, they just got it though, right? You guys didn't own it before, did you? You did? Oh, okay. No, we just we are just just getting ownership of it. But it's, you know, it was someone. How do you think of Pleasant, North Pleasant, or whatever this is South Pleasant as a distinctive area, right? I don't think it's really campus necessarily, right? Yeah, I don't find it to be a distinctive area. Yeah. Okay, let's say no on that one and move to the other because I think we might find our answer there. So the second one is the structure as to its unique location or its physical characteristics represents an established and familiar visual feature of the neighborhood village center or the community as a whole. It's a feature of the neighborhood, yes. I would say yes for this. Okay. Yeah, it's a it's a feature of the neighborhood, but it's not the shining star. No, but it's but it's a familiar visual feature and it fits in at this point with the neighborhood, right? Yeah, okay. Okay, so everyone seems to agree with that. So we're basically saying that architectural importance and geographic importance stand and that this structure meets the criteria of significance or as a significant structure. That said, it doesn't that's not determining how we vote on the request for demolition that just establishes that fact. Okay, at this point, then we can discuss the application itself. We have choices. We can either grant it outright or we can put a delay and if we put a delay, say what we hope to accomplish during that or we can, I guess, ask further questions of the two people representing Amherst College at this point. And I think right now for the commission, so, you know, it has met three criteria and it's, you know, considered important or significant based on architecture and geographic importance. So the question, you know, would be is does the demolition removal of this structure is that, you know, detrimental to those criteria into the town and you know, I think what's difficult is the although Amherst College mentioned that there's someone who's interested in moving it, typically we wouldn't allow for demolition with that to be moved, right? So typically you'd say, you know, that if you think that's a possibility to actually impose a delay and then have Amherst College come back when it's more firmed up that, you know, that the house couldn't be moved, it's, I think it's difficult to condition a demolition. I mean, you know, if the commission could make that motion that it can only be allowed to be demolished if it's moved to another location. And then, you know, if that's something you really feel strongly about, but usually that type of condition is not placed on a demolition. No, I think we just have to do a delay. I mean, we could also do a delay more generally that either that or some other solution is found. Right, right. Or we could say, well, one thing members should remember, it's hard always to do this and I'm the worst offender, but you're not supposed to take into account the planning of what's going to replace it. That's not our purview, even though it often influences how we feel about, you know, what's going to happen on that property if the building is taken down. So we talked about that a little bit with the barn garage, but in this case, it's even harder because we know that we might like this to stay, but, you know, we know what's going there. But really, in the end, we have to look at just the building on its own merits. Well, we have to look at the building on its own merits and remember that it's just a delay. We have no power to keep it there. That we're posing as a delay. Exactly. The delay says that we consider the building significant amount of it shouldn't be demolished. And we'd like to work with the college on finding a solution to what a condition of lifting. So if moving the building, which is considered a historic preservation success, I think that that's the last level of success, or maybe repurposing it is. If moving it is considered demolition, then a demolition delay would mean that it couldn't be moved. So we would probably want to put a condition in there that would say that we would lift the delay if a solution. Right. So that's what I would, that's what I would be moving toward would be a motion that imposes a delay that could be lifted, if it could be moved. Yeah, I mean, I think 13.51, if you can see it, says that commission is satisfied that there's no reasonable likelihood that either the owner or some other person or group will be willing to purchase, preserve, rehabilitate or restore the building and advises the building commissioner in writing. So we've used, you know, that provision before to have an applicant return during the delay to say, you know, here's, here's the research I've done or here's what's possible or feasible. So I think that's what, you know, that's how we would use that in this application. Any other discussion or does someone want to make a motion or where do we stand? Pat and Hedy? I think whatever we, I think we could argue for a delay with the idea that we are aware that there may be someone interested in the building and I suppose it's, is it usual in some kind of communication that we would list what we voted on in terms of the standards for designation that, because they kind of come, they work together in my mind. I don't know, I'm, well, if we vote for a delay, yes, we say we determined it was a significant structure and therefore. Sorry, sorry, Jan, is the delay 90 days? No, the year. Oh, okay. But it can be lifted. Right, so it could be lifted so we make it conditionally lifted for moving but not lifted for complete demolition or? No, no, no, I don't think you could be that specific. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, Dave, but I think you say we oppose a delay and we lift it if a resolution is found. So either it's moved or. Okay. If nothing, if the move falls through and no one else comes forward and they really need to keep the, get the project going, they can come back to us according to 13.51 and say we've exhausted all possibilities, we really need you to lift this because it's going to happen sooner or later and then we would meet up with them again on this. Right, they're also coming back to, and correct me if I'm wrong, they're also coming back to say, can you lift the delay because we're moving it, which is considered demolition, is that right? Am I understanding that correctly? Yes. Yes. So part of this is that if, you know, whether or not they applied now or in the future, moving it is considered as a considered demolition. So my thought is this is all part of the same, you know, this is part of the application. So it's part of the alternatives to just, you know, a wrecking ball is, is moving it something that commission would see as, as you said, Robin, a win if that becomes the solution to just, you know, We're just basically slowing the process down at this point. I'm sorry, Amherst College, if it happens, but that's kind of the only thing we have. Slow it to see if we can find other answers. Right. Right. If Amherst College after, you know, if they research other contractors who move buildings, if this one doesn't work and, you know, after six months, they say, wow, we really don't have a solution, they could come back to the commission and present that information. So there's a second process where they come back to the commission and then we have to vote to lift the delay, correct? So we can impose the delay. We have an idea that we would lift it if the house removed and we might lift it if there were other conditions that made it clear that there was no point in keeping it imposed. We've done it before. Right. So there's a path, there's a pathway to kind of timetable sounds like. Right. Great. But we just need to word it so that our thinking is understood. It's a delay, but the understanding that they can come back with new information for us. Yeah. It's pretty standard. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm willing to make the motion if I can get the language. I move to impose a delay, a demolition delay, and then can Nate fill in the rest for me? You know, because you impose delay for the demolition of the single family home at 205 South Pleasant, you know, with the condition that the applicant can return to the commission to present alternatives. At any time within the 12 months delay period. All right. I move thusly. I second. Who seconded that? Pat. Okay. Is there any more, you know, is there any more discussion or? Good. Okay. We'll take a roll call vote. Pat? Yes. Robin? Yes. Heddy? Yes. Me? Yes. Sorry, Mark and Tom, you guys do great stuff for the town, but you probably expected this. I'm hoping you expected this. Okay. So we'll get a letter out to Mark to the college, you know, in the, you know, the 12 months we'll start counting tomorrow. And then, you know, if you have more information, you can just work together to come back to the commission as needed. And so, you know, and then, you know, I think also commission, the commission, I also like to say it's on incumbent a little bit on staff and the commission, if you have any ideas, send them to me and I can communicate with Amherst College too. So if you have ideas for contractors or other things, you can send them to me and we can try to come up with solutions. And commission members are always willing to help do research or make contacts. We're not always that successful, but we have done it right in the past for places. We'll try help if you need it. Sure. All right. Okay. Well, thank you both. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. I'm going to remove you as panelists, Mark and Tom, and then the commission can continue their meeting. Okay. So public hearing is closed. The determination on that demolition request has been made and we now move to the first agenda item of our regular public meeting. Anyone have any announcements? Anything, Nate? I think you've just followed everyone's here. You know, Ben Bregger is here with us. He's a new planner for the town. He'll be starting full-time on June 1. And, you know, probably in the fall, he'll be taking over the role of staffing the commission. And so I'll be, you know, winding down at some point, I hope in the next seven, eight, nine months. You hope. You hope. I hope. Because I'm supposed to be taking on some other boards of committee. So I have, I think I have four right now. Got a full plate. I think that's my only announcement. You know, if members, terms, I think Jan, yours is expiring. I'm not sure who else, but if you're interested in serving, you can just send an email to me. Well, I can report that I've been reappointed. Yeah, so, yeah. And I've been today. I must have a hole in my head, but yes, I did. I mean, I looked at all the other openings, I thought, nothing's as nearly as interesting as historical commission. And at the same time, this email came in from Angelina asking me. Oh, great. Yeah, they were doing, I'm glad they did that. Yeah, they said they were going through. So that's great. I got picked up from Angelina yesterday. So I re-upped. Oh, okay. It still has to go through the board. Yeah. Right. But I don't know. They asked us for little bios and things. So I don't know my status. This is something I should be doing. No, you're, I think you're automatically still on for another year. Let me just I'll quickly, the town manager's office was reaching out to members whose terms are ending in June. So if he hadn't received. Why would he be ending? She's only just got none. He's only just come on. I think there was a mistake in Angelina's email and I didn't want to be pedantic. Or I think what happened is if you sometimes you, members appointed to fill the remaining term of the previous members. Oh, I think that might be what it was. She filled Ted's, the rest of Ted's story. Okay. Oh, let's see. So it was just. I'm happy it's due or die. Everyone else is up in 21 or 22. So Robin, you're with us for another two years. Yes. All right. For your sins. And Pat, another year. Let's see. Pat and Robin are 22. Okay. Both Janes are 21. Okay. So we've got a stable group now. Yeah. Yeah. We're practically family. That's true. Okay. General updates. Civil War tablets. Anything further on that? Anika emailed and she'd asked, she's on another Zoom. And I think she said this month got away from her a little bit, but she's still hoping to come back next month. And after the meeting, I guess it was maybe a few meetings ago, Scott wrote an article in the Gazette. And so I think it is a great project to see what can happen with the tablets. I don't have an update right now. I do think that is something, you know, I'm not sure there's a, I'm not sure where the discussions are with the library or where a home could be, but, you know, I think it's just something she wants to be a proponent of and we can wait till next month. Right. Yeah. Well, we said last time we keep an eye on it. Yeah. Yeah. And I let her know that this, to me, this will just be an ongoing agenda item until we can figure out something. Okay. B is comments to Pioneer Valley Planning Commission for Outbuildings and something historical or just something district nominations. What's NHR? National Historic Register. So, you know, I mean, we can still send things. I think at one point we have looked at that a while ago and MHC, I think is kind of preliminarily approved it and just asked if there are any more local comments. So the one we've already put together. Yes. Yeah. Okay. So, I mean, I don't, you know, I think last time I said I'd send something to you and I didn't. If you want me to, I can do that again. I don't, you know, we looked at it a while ago and it didn't seem like there was any, any urgent comments, but I can. Yeah. I don't remember anything being necessary to change myself. I hope anybody else does. Oh, I don't remember reacting that way. So I don't think you need to resend it to me anyway. No, I don't think so. I think it's all right. All right. I'll just let her know. And then for the Outbuildings, you know, I think she, there wasn't enough money to essentially inventory all 120, but we had, I thought identify like a dozen that we wanted to be researched further. So essentially what she was providing the town was, you know, a database of structures that then could be used as a priority if there's other funding to do inventory. So I'll let her know that she can just wrap that up. Great. Robin, Demolition Delay Bylaw. All right. I've been trying to charge on this. Jane Shippler and I have just made some weekly meetings. I pulled together. So I spent some time pulling everything together from where Ted and I have left off. I managed to get the Article 13 into an edible word format and an edible one. Editable. So I had it as a PDF. I didn't have Ted's files. But edible might be good too. I'll put edible in the minutes. Yeah. So that, and then I got all our comments from my notes on where we had stopped off. I had to retype everything into a form because of the transition between people. And then I emailed Jane and we're going to meet weekly to move forward on that. And to keep the momentum going. I decided on a weekly meeting between the two of us. I need to, the other, Jane A isn't here. I need to connect with Jane about whether or not we're going to try for Demolition Delay to sponsor a workshop with the Historical Commission. But I'm going to do those things in parallel so that we're working on the delay. Yeah. Any time on the workshop if it takes away from getting these silly. Absolutely. It was really meant to be before everything blew up. It was meant to be to go hand in hand, but it might be helpful for us. But so we should have two or three or four weeks of work under our belt spare next meeting. And I will be delighted to report to you then. And I wanted to ask Nate, when we get a working draft going, what is, what is okay for me to circulate to the commission? I can't do an editable or commentable Google doc. Is that correct? I think you could send it to me and then I can send it out and ask for comments. And so the idea would be then commission members can send it back to me and we can share it out of meeting. So, for instance, if if Hedy had comments on a certain section, it can't be shared between members, but I can share it and then we can discuss it at a, at the meeting. Okay. All right. I just see it would be nice to have, I mean, the nice thing about having a shared Google doc is that you can get all the comments in one place. Yeah. I know. But I think that it would be if you send me a link and I thought it would be if the commission members sent me their comments, I could do the Google doc. I just, you know, there's going to be that's considered deliberation. So even right. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right. You know, you could add them in for Hedy and for right. And then that'll be in the one document. Okay. That'd be great. Okay. Yeah. And I think that, you know, even if it'd be curious to see, even if you reached out to like Chris Kelly or someone, a mass historic, you know, it would be through zoom, but right, we were hoping that, you know, they were excited to come out to Western mass because then they would hold a workshop on, you know, implementing a demolition delay bylaw and right, right. You know, maybe they still are now, but I'm not sure, you know, I'd be curious to know, you know, because I think they could give us some good, you know, tips if they were if they came out maybe. Yeah. Right. And that was the idea. And so one of the hitches was that when I emailed Chris, he wanted to only communicate with the chair. And then then it gets harder for me to take hold of if there's a delay just because, you know, everybody's swamped. So I'll see if I can, if I can bypass that for, for efficiency's sake. Yeah. To say the chair, say you've been nominated by the chair to do this. Yeah. And Chris was my instructor, so let's see if I can work that to my advantage. Your chair of the ad hoc committee. Right. What is it called? It's not called a, what is it called a task force? Task force, whatever. Task force, is that right? Okay. Every time we do one of these though, I wish those bylaws were updated. So I know, I know, I do too. I was deep in them the other day. So yeah. Yeah. And one thing too is, you know, the, a lot of communities now are putting these in the general bylaws and not in the zoning. So at the time, you know, when it was put in the zoning, I guess that was the typical place for it and the way it's written also relies on some of the zoning. But the problem is what we found out in the past a few times is that the commission's decision isn't, it can't be appealed. It becomes what's appealable is the issuance of a building permit. So, you know, the only way this can be appealed is to the zoning board of appeals, which is a funny process. So if it becomes in that, if it's put in the general bylaw, you know, it can be appealed either, we can write an appeals process, whether that's through the courts or through another mediation, kind of like the local historic district, but so the commission can appeal if it's in the general. I mean, or the applicant, we can write an appeals process that, you know, is just a little smoother because going to the zoning board isn't really, someone argued that that's not the place to appeal a demolition review. Okay. Yeah. I think it's good to consider, but let's get them cleaned up first. Yeah, let's get it cleaned up first. Yeah. Okay. CPA projects, writers, walk, Nate. I put it on there, Jan, just so you can thank you. Yes. No, the, so, you know, there was a little hiccup and Anthony went, a little hiccup he says, I like this term, a little hiccup. Anthony went back out to bid and so we should be getting, if the results aren't in, we should be getting a contract going soon. So, you know, I think, I think what happened was I think it just stalled long enough that documents weren't issued. So, you know, we had three or four fabricators that were waiting for responses from and I had a new website address that we could add to the sign. So, you know, something. You have it? Well, IT said it could be as easy as like Amherst.gov backslash writer's walk signs or something. So, it's, I guess it's, then they asked, like, what does the commission want? And so I guess, I guess that's the question, like, is there, is it as simple as that? Like, do we like that? Sounds good to me. I mean, the simpler, the better for the public, right? That it would be a separate domain for the signs, which it should be. Well, it would be under the town's website. So, the problem now is that UMass, the link is to a site that's, I don't know if it's a UMass domain, but I think it's just that guy. It's this domain he created, Amherst Historic. Right. And so, if that domain ever went away or was rerouted, then we, you know, all the signs would be wrong. So, if we, the idea would be that we would create this link, amherst.gov, backslash, writer's walk signs or something, and it would just be a redirect to that domain. So, if that domain ever changed or something, we would just change it internally and no one would ever know. So, all they would ever see would be the Amherst. Right. Yeah, I think writer's walk is fine. That's all it needs to say. But you think differently? No, I like the simplicity of it. And we could even, it occurred to me at some point that we could do a second walk of, say, young literature writers, because there's so many in the area or contemporary or whatever, they could all be under that same rubric if it's simple. Yeah, right. But we're not like saying historic or something. Right, right. Yeah. Okay, no, that's good. So then, all right. So when are we installing them? This summer. Actually, it is the idea. I was hoping by July 1, but it'll be delayed. But it is a product that has, the CB Money's there, and we're still hoping to get it installed this season. I've heard that, like, how many times have I heard that? It doesn't matter. It's gonna happen. I know, I'm really, this is it, you know. It has to happen before you go off. So if you want to get off the historical commission, we're gonna let you off until this is done. I'm calling him and saying, look it. Okay. West cemetery signs? Jane, I think I need to have some tags for the names. And other than that, you know, I think it's probably on me to reach out to Kyle and Dave, you know, I'd asked a while ago for David Victor said, you know, the artist says he's gonna have one or two sign templates or something and he never, he's never responded. So you know, essentially the town hasn't, you know, they wanted a permit issued for a sign off saying that they're done with their site plan review process because they, there's some issue maybe with their financing or I don't know something. And the town said, no, you have to finish the signs in another component of the review. So essentially, you know, we're not, the town's not going to sign off until this is done. So let me write back to Kyle and, Kyle and David and see if they want to come back soon. I mean, it's been a strange time, but I know Archipelago took a break. Some of their construction has been slow. So maybe I'll see if they've been working on this. As far as what Jane said, I think we should always look to the shorter IDs. The less information on a sign, the more likely it is people are willing to read it, use it. Yeah, I can actually pull that out. Let me see if I'm looking at it right now. I could share my screen too, if you want. I shared it. If you scroll way down, you'll see she has a second set that's the same thing, shorter. Yeah. So I mean, so you know, the idea is how, right, if this were on an interpretive sign in the West Cemetery. It's a lot of work. I keep going. Yeah. So then there is a little bit shorter. And the question is, you know, at one point we had suggested that the sign could have a web link or something, or, you know, we'd have, or just say like more information is available. I mean, even these abbreviated ones, it's still a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it may also be one of the things that could be placed on a card that's available in the visitor center. And then it just says, you know, very generally a description of what's on the mural. And then if you want to actually ID, you can go over there and get a card and come back. I like that idea, personally. Sorry. What was that? Just a, you weren't listening to me. You may have the chamber of commerce office, right? The visitor center. Yeah. That's what the visitor center is. That's what it says on the writer's walk signs. Anyway, it's right. Oh, no. Yeah. So, yeah. And then, you know, are we still, we'd still be doing a diagram type thing that says this is a trolley. This is a hotel. This is whatever. Just not all the people, right? Yeah. We're going to have, you know, because it's both the people and then the depiction of Amherst history. So the thought was to have callouts for the, you know, the, whether the setting or the landscapes that were just depicted. And then the question was, how do we list all the individuals? And so, you know, on an interpretive sign, we talked about at one point having, you know, like a tryptic or having one big sign in two locations, you know, a third in and a third at the other end, you know, so two of the same signs. But seeing Jane's list here, I... Is this a short descriptions? These are the short descriptions. You could make these much shorter. I'm reading them and thinking the same thing. But, but, Jane, I think at one point we had discussed and you sent something to all of us, an example, believe it was you, of often how they do paintings in museums where they will have the painting recreated with numbers. Right. Then a, then a reference to the side so that you don't have all of this under the, you know, you look up, it's just who somebody is. If you want to sign with all these names, I mean, I think probably for that kind of outline that I was talking about, I think I sent you School of Athens by Raphael with that example, outlines. That could have something like Dickinson family outings set in front of Phoenix Hall, looking Eastline Main Street or something like that. And then for the people, you could go get the card from the visitor's center. Yeah, the Dorothy Pan is our hand raised, Jane, if I can better speak, but I think the condition we have to think about, right, how, you know, one point we said we'd like to have all the names identified when you're in the cemetery. So you know, but it's a, it's a pretty big list. So then, you know, do you number key everyone and then have like a, you know, whether it's a second panel or something that then has these in some numeric order. Right. That's, that's kind of what I'm thinking. They just, I guess the practicality is that the visitor's center isn't always open. And, and, you know, and I don't even know how many days a week it's open, but it's not always open. And so if we could number them and then have a panel with the key, then, and I think some of these could be shortened up. Definitely. Then, then it would just be, be numbers. And if people were interested in who that person is, they'll look at the key, but you can't have all of this beneath the photo and the sign. It just, visually, it wouldn't work very well, in my opinion. Right. Jane will let Dorothy speak. Sure. Hey, Dorothy, you're, you can unmute yourself or I can do that, but you're allowed to speak. Okay. All the ideas that you're having are great, but there's something else that I've seen recently that I don't know the name of it. It's like a little splotchy square. And I've seen them on similar things like your code, your code, your smartphone up to it, and it gives you the longer text. Right. It's a QR code. I, we've talked about that for a number of things we talked about for the writer's walk. I think the problem that came up was, A, not everybody has that an app to read those, and B, it may be a platform that's going to disappear. Ah, well, I just thought you could add it to the, because I think the ideas you were talking about are very good and very accessible. But if somebody did have a smartphone, they could get the longer text, which I think a lot of people would like. If I do, I do understand your problem with a sign which has too much language on it. Yeah. So I just thought it was an additional thing, not instead of what you were discussing. Right. No, it's a good idea. We'd have to set up a site for the QR code to take you to. And people would have to have a reader, one app or another reader on their phone to read a QR code. But I mean, they're very available. Right. Is it possible for another organization to host something? I mean, is it even possible for the town of Amherst in its drop-down menu on the website to contain the information that is in this wonderful handout that I got from the visitor center from the bureau? I used to print out like a hundred of those every two weeks and put them in the cemetery and they disappear. But that's linked to our website, but it's buried within a few layers into the website. So I'm not sure when you say a drop-down, I guess probably make it more accessible. Well, yeah, it would be a question of getting through the layers. Is it, I mean, I just think it's so nice to have this. Yeah, the one here is nice, yeah. It's a very, you know, on the other hand, I've got to point in my life where I'm trying to get rid of what in England is called Bump. This is Bump. It's good Bump. But it's printed ephemera, you know, and there's tons of it, and I have tons of it. And nobody has to go to the business center and take one, but they could be there. Yeah, I think that's great. The web location could be a specific address that bypasses all the layers and takes you straight to it. That would be nice. And then the QR code could also take you straight to that. Right. And that could, you know, I mean, if that becomes defunct, it's a square, right? You could cover it over with something probably relatively easily. It wouldn't look too dated. Right. Yeah. And you know, what's, what we're hoping is, whether or not Kyle and Archipelago agree is that, you know, they're supposed to be paying for this. So information is really advisory to them. And so it could be a really big sign of information out there. Yeah, another side of a building. Yeah. I mean, the idea was that there's two signs that the commission that Archipelago discussed. One was like, you know, an entrance sign to a cemetery, which we talked about having the west of the gate, you know, and you look, you know, when you walk by Zana down that, you know, the Gaylord gate to be on the left hand side and then this sign for the mural. And yeah. Now, a third sign, if we were to put this text there as well. Yeah, it was interesting. This text, I mean, on the current West Cemetery signs, we say, you know, we have the, for the mural, we have the donors and some, some language about the process or the, you know, the kind of history of the mural. And I'm not sure if we would want to repeat all that too. I mean, that's like, you know, it's like, would we have a visual sign and then a really text heavy sign? I don't know. And I agree, we could probably create a specific web address and simplify the page. So right now, the mural is, there's a webpage for it, but then it's, some of it's on different websites. So, you know, like DPW has the division of trees and grounds and cemeteries. So some information's there and some under, some is under historical commission. We could create a central one. It's like the writer's walk where it's, you know, backslash, mural. I mean, like that and put it all in one place. Somebody has to take the lead on this, though, if it's going to happen. I mean, they can say, sure, we'll pay for it, but now somebody's got to be in charge of pulling it all together. You know, it's so great. I get to task Ben with helping on this. Staying to cut your teeth on that. Can I just, I just want to make one comment about having I'm ready to get to work. The brochure at the bid or the Chamber of Commerce says that it's, that's nice too, because if you're there, it directs you to the mural, right? So if you're at the mural, it might direct you to the bed, right? It directs you to the mural. I'm a big fan of keeping paper in the loop. Yeah. I think that we started putting the mural with the bid and Chamber because, you know, we set a mailbox at West Cemetery. And like I said, we go through 100 mural brochures every two weeks in the summer. And it just became some of cost prohibitive and time consumptive to keep refilling those. And it was always hard to say where they went, but but I think having them in those locations makes a lot more sense. And then it becomes much more broadly connected to everything else in Amherst. Right. Anything that they see that gets them into that center, they'll see the other stuff. So say they notice a house with a writer's walk sign and they go in there or the mural and they go in there, they'll see each of the other things too. So this is good to interconnect. Okay, great. So Ben's going to take the lead on coordinating how this fits together. And we'll see how he does. Welcome to the historical commission. Thank you. Yeah. David is key because he's the one who's supposed to be developing the visual for the sign, correct? It is. Yeah. I have some ideas, but if he doesn't want to. Yeah. So Ben, I'll, I'll, I can loop you in with the artist and the, you know, Kyle from Marco Pellego and I'll send an email, I have a note, send an email and hope we can get that conversation started again. They came in December, maybe it was, or November with some preliminary idea, preliminary ideas and we had these lists of things that they're supposed to respond to. And then I followed back up at one point and never heard back. So Okay, we'll keep it on the agenda for next time then so we can see progress reports. Sure. Yep. I'll go back to the agenda. I think. Okay, we're on public comment. Is there anybody left from the public? There's a few people left. Let's see. Sorry, I have a lot up on my computer right now. Are there any public comments? We can, you can raise your hand if you'd like. I don't see anyone raising their hand. Okay. Do we already have a meeting set or is there any appending business that we have to meet at a particular date? Actually, that's a, I'm glad you brought that up. That was the last thing. There's two demolition permits that have, they're almost complete. I think one just came in today. And so one's for a garage at 30 Fearing and one will be for, there's a back building at 300 North Pleasant. It's west of Kendrick Park. It's where there's the Amherst Veterinary Clinic and they're the owner proposing to demolish that building. So, so those two, that one it'll probably be completed maybe tomorrow. They submitted it, but it wasn't complete. So we haven't, you know, clocked it in. And I think 30 North Fearing is, I just, it came in, the 30 North Fearing came in in like four different emails. So I just have to compile it all and send it off. But they sent the final information today on that. So, So we need to meet before June 30? Well, you know, the nice thing is we have 30, we're supposed to have 35 days, but with the, with the COVID, we have kind of an unlimited, you know, there's already flexibility, but it's a tough time because we need a two week, two week notice and then the Gazette needs them like five days for lead time. So, you know, I put us at the end of June if people are available or maybe the first, you know, like the week of June 29 might work. Is that good? Are people planning to still be stuck at home doing Zoom meetings? The town will probably be doing Zoom meetings for a while. So I don't anticipate an in-person meeting in June. Okay. Commission members? I mean, June 30th, for instance. I think we have a calendar. We could do the week of, we could do the week of June 22nd too. That could probably, that'd be enough time to get a legal ad submitted. Yeah. I mean, if something else comes in next week, if we did the week of the 29th, you might be able to fit it in then too to avoid a second meeting right away, right? I mean, we, you know, this is the period of that stuff coming in. I know it was a time of year. I haven't heard of anything, anything else? Any preferences, members? This time of day on a Thursday is hard for me. I had to actually duck out of a standing five o'clock meeting that I have with other writers and I'm okay not meeting with them today, but I'd really like to not have to do it on a regular basis. We used to meet Wednesdays. I mean, we could go back to Wednesday if it works for everyone. I think this Thursday was, we had done this just because of this demolition application, but not, you know, I agree if, you know, if commission members want to meet on a Wednesday at five or four or seven, you know, that works for me. So it's really up to commissioners. So would we be looking at Wednesday 24th of June or Wednesday 1st of July? Any preferences? Should we say just the 24th of June? I tentatively have a board meeting Zoom at 3.30 that would last about an hour on the 24th, but I could do it after that. You know, when I wait till July in case you get another one in the next few days that you could put in and still fit under the wire timing? Yeah, my only concern is that it's getting close to the 4th of July weekend, but... Oh, yeah, yeah, people might be doing stuff. Well, we could always use that as a backup if something happens. Right. Would five or six work for you, Pat? Sure, five or five o'clock would work. I don't need to break. Anybody like that time? Not like that time? That's good. June 24 at 5 p.m. Yep. And it'll be similar to tonight or this evening, it'll be a demolition hearing followed maybe by a public meeting if there's enough time. We have two hearings, correct? We will have... Correct. Yeah, I mean, I think the garage at 30 North hearing is an older garage. I'm not sure how visible it is. The 300 North Puzzle seems like it was... It's an older outbuilding that's been converted over time for two different uses. So the owner proposing for something in its place, but I think that could be a discussion. Well, we can check with the two Janes as well. If it's a problem for them, we may have to email back and forth about this, but technically, let's set that time. Yep, that sounds good. And then Jane, while she'll be back to do a decent job of running a meeting. Oh, you did a great job. You did a great job. Excellent job. That was the exactingness. Yikes. I think Jane also, she would recuse herself for the hearing and maybe she just... I was wondering if she forgot to tell us she was going to or something. Yeah. Thanks, Jane. Okay. We emailed just yesterday, so something must have come up because... I emailed her about something else this morning. I mean, I haven't heard her back, but I said, I'll see you in court. Yeah, I emailed the last few days, so I, you know... Yeah. Okay. Anybody want to make a motion to adjourn? A motion to adjourn. I'll second it. Okay. Ben, are you okay with everything? Yep, all good. Well, I guess we'll see you and Nate next month. Yeah. Thank you, everybody. All right. Thank you. Bye, all. Stay well. Could I ask you a question, Nate? Sure. Not related to historical commissioning, but...