 Thank you very much. I'm very pleased to charge this webinar on behalf of Jeff. It is the first of three webinars on the topic of UBI programmed for this autumn. Jeff has been working since 2017 on the topic of UBI. This event is for us an opportunity to promote also the second volume of the European green perspective on basic income, which is our collection of articles showing different facets and perspectives on basic income. Maybe Luca, you can put the link to the publication in the chat. The topic today is general a basic income for Europe and we will explore the general question is a universal basic income a realistic option for Europe we saw in the video that why it would be useful, what would be the benefits, but is this realistic. We believe that a basic income could be a flywheel that would force the deep systemic changes that are necessary in times of threats and sources of instability that we are facing climate emergency biodiversity loss, resources depletion, growing inequalities, weakening of democracy and the rule of law, COVID-19 pandemic acceleration of digitalization and automation to mention the most important. Today, we will try to analyze if the European EBI is possible what benefits it will bring compared to nationwide implementation and how it could be financed. We will also discuss how the European citizens initiative for a European basic income has emerged and whether European society is ready for a basic income in the European Union. For this first session we invited two excellent UVI experts and ambassadors. Welcome Tori and Klaus Sambar. Welcome. Good afternoon. I will present each of our guests later. The format of our meeting is as follows each speaker will have time for a presentation of 10 to 15 minutes after which I will ask him some questions. After the last 20 minutes the panelists will answer to the questions from the audience, which I ask you to put in the question and answer section. In the chat we encourage discussion and exchanges between the audience. So we will start with Dr. Malcolm Tori. You are a visiting fellow in the Institute for Policy Research at the University of Bath and Treasurer of the Basic Income Earth Network again. And you were until recently a visiting senior fellow at the London School of Economics and Director of the City's Basic Income Trust. You have written a number of books about basic income and for nearly 20 years you have researched the financial feasibility of illustrative basic income schemes. Mr. Tori is a universal basic income realistic option for Europe. The stage is yours. I will share my screen and show you some slides. Can you see that okay? Yes, it's perfect. Just full screen please. Great. Well thank you for the invitation. It's a pleasure to meet you all and hold this discussion with you. First of all let's be clear exactly what we're talking about. I always find it important to be clear at the beginning of any presentation. The basic income is an unconditional income for every individual. There are no conditions attached, not affected by your income, your wealth, your household structure, employment status or anything else. Different amounts might be paid to people of different ages. That's perfectly okay. The reason it's okay is that we can't affect our age and no inquiry is required. And automatic administration is preserved. The income remains totally secure. So different amounts for different age groups does not compromise the unconditionality that matters. Basic income is an unconditional income for everyone. So these are the definitions that you will find on the important websites about basic income debate. The BN definition, basic income network definition is here. Basic income is a periodic cash payment unconditionally delivered to all on an individual basis without means test or work requirement. And there are explanations of various characteristics on the website. Basic income is a periodic payment. For example every month, it's a cash payment. It's to individuals not households, it's universal and unconditional. There's no means test, and there's no work test. It's not to distinguish between two things. First of all, a basic income and secondly, a basic income scheme. A basic income is always an unconditional income paid to every individual. A basic income scheme is a basic income with specified levels for each age group with the funding mechanism with other changes that you might make details of frequency of payment and various other things. The basic income scheme tells you the details of what will be done. The reason it's important to distinguish between these two is that a basic income always has the same definition, but there is an infinity of different basic income schemes because there are lots of ways of funding a basic income. Lots of different changes could be made at the same time to tax and benefit systems, and so on. Another extremely important reason for making this distinction is that arguments for or against a particular basic income scheme are not necessarily arguments for or against basic income, nor are they necessarily arguments for or against different basic income schemes. All we need for the feasibility of basic income is a single feasible basic income scheme in any particular jurisdiction. So what are the effects of a basic income? It's important to be clear about these. A basic income would never be withdrawn as earnings rise, so a individual or household net income would rise faster and there would be more incentive to seek employment to create self employment and to increase earnings. A basic income would never be reduced, so it would provide a solid floor of economic security on which everyone can build and so greater freedom to pursue a variety of activities. We have seen during these years of the pandemic, just how insecure so many people's incomes are. The aspect of someone's income today is at risk, whereas a basic income would provide a solid secure floor for a household or an individual. How would a basic income affect a family? Our current benefits systems are often disastrous for families. So the expectation civil partnership and marriage would be neither subsidized nor penalized by basic income, whereas they often are by other systems. Each individual would receive their own basic income, so there will be more incentive to form and maintain relationships. And members of a family would be free to work out together the employment pattern they wanted without their basic incomes affecting their choices because the basic income would always be the same. These are the effects for a family and you've just seen the effects for an individual for any basic income and so for any basic income scheme. How would a basic income affect our society? Everyone would receive the basic income creating social cohesion. The labor market could become more flexible without damaging workers' economic security and there would be administrative savings. Our current benefits systems cost a lot to administer. These effects that we've just discussed would relate to any basic income and any basic income scheme wherever it was implemented. I was asked to write a short book some years ago about the reasons for basic income. I've mentioned just a few. This book contains 101 different reasons. I started with an even longer list than that and had to cut it. So if you're interested in more reasons then get the book. You probably know a lot of the reasons yourselves don't need me to tell you what they are. Your little video, I hadn't seen your little video but actually we've got the same list of advantages for a European basic income or euro dividend on my slide and in the video. I suspect because we have employed the same source for them. Philip van Parish has wrote in 2013 an article recommending a euro dividend. There had of course been much discussion of the idea before then in the UK right back in the 1970s. One of our members of parliament was writing about the possibility of basic income. Before that James Mead an economist had discussed the idea but this list comes from initially from Philip van Parish. So there are four reasons, at least four reasons for implementing a euro dividend that does not apply to an individual country basic income. So first of all interstate transfers would enhance European financial stability. Secondly, reduction of migrant flows and brain drains. Some countries suffer quite a lot from migrant flows and brain drains. The countries which moves skilled workers suffer from it and societies which receive them sometimes struggle to integrate rapidly moving migrant flows. Providing a basic income across Europe could even out the wealth and incomes of the different countries in Europe. Thus reducing the needs that people feel to move across country boundaries. A euro dividend would assist Europe as a whole in competing in a global employment market. The basic income would never be withdrawn and so there will be a solid basis to people's incomes. And so the other parts of people's incomes whether that was self employment earnings or employed earnings or starting a new business. They could be more at risk without people's incomes becoming less secure. And so competition in the global market could increase. There will be enhanced psychological ownership of the European project. It was quite difficult in the UK for the Remain campaign to Europe before the Brexit referendum in the UK back in 2016. It was not easy for the Remain campaign to tell people precisely what it was that the European Union was doing for them. Now, there are lots of things that the European Union does for us particularly in relation to the common market to the easy transfer of goods and services across boundaries. People's ability to work in different places where their skills might be valued and so on. And so uncomplicated transitions enabling chains of production to happen seamlessly across Europe is an important advantage of the European Union, but these are not visible things. And a lot of people simply had no idea how important they were. Some people in the UK are now discovering how important such easy transitions across boundaries are. But that has been subsequent to our exiting European Union. To have a Euro dividend would be a clear benefit to people. They would see what it is that the European Union is doing for them. There are various ways that a Euro dividend could be funded. I won't go into these in great detail because you probably understand what they are. These could be used for a national basic income, but they could also be used very European one. So first of all, consumption tax VAT. There is a certain stability to value added tax rates across Europe in order to facilitate the common marketing goods and services and a consumption tax increase could be used for a small basic income. Financial transaction tax would work more easily on a European level than on a national level, simply because financial transactions can move between countries. And so that's another possibility for a Euro dividend, which is not such a possibility for national basic incomes. A carbon tax would be an obvious candidate. We are going to need carbon taxes. And to use a carbon tax to fund a basic income would fit very well. The reason is that carbon taxes will impact the disposable incomes of low income households because heating homes would cost more, transport will cost more, goods will cost more. And those incomes will need to be protected. So to use the proceeds of the carbon tax for a basic income would protect incomes and it would enable us to reduce the carbon emissions that Europe produces. Should there be different levels of basic income in different countries that we had a basic income across Europe? This is a long standing discussion. And the reason it is a long standing discussion is there are arguments both ways. The argument for country specific levels is psychological and political acceptability within each country. If you know that your country has a generally higher income per head than another country, then you might wish the government to decide what your level will be, leaving other governments to decide what their levels will be. There would still be some national involvement in deciding what the basic income will be like. The argument against having different levels in different countries is that that would reduce all of the advantages of a euro dividend. Those that I just stated interstate transfers would go down, reduction of migrant flows would not be as effective. There will be less ability to compete in a global employment market, and there will be less psychological ownership of the European project. This debate will no doubt go on. There are arguments both ways. Different countries may want to decide their own levels up Europe as a whole probably needs there to be a single level across Europe. Is it feasible? This is a vital question financially. Yes, a small basic income for the whole of Europe is perfectly feasible on the basis of the funding methods that I've described. It is administratively feasible. Yes, although different countries have different levels of administratively at the moment. Some countries have very full lists of their population members, their dates of birth and names contact details and bank account details, whereas other countries would need to create those databases. So administrative possibilities are certainly there, but it would need initial work. Potentially, a euro dividend is psychologically feasible for the population. We know that interest in basic income is rising. The opinion surveys tell us that there is more understanding of basic income as the years go by, and it is more popular as an idea. It becomes less popular when people are told that taxes will have to rise to pay for it, and that is perfectly understandable. Politically feasible. Well, that's more of a problem. The reason is that taxation and benefits are currently reserved to national governments, and that would have to change before a euro dividend could be implemented. Whether that change is possible is an interesting question, which we won't be able to answer here. Some books which you may be interested if you are interested in research on basic income. I won't go into any detail on this, but this is a book published two years ago. Two authors from around the world from five different continents contributed to this book and it's an essential handbook for anybody who is seriously researching basic income. I will not discuss in detail the different chapters, but they cover the entire basic income debate. Money for Everyone was published in 2013 is a general introduction to the subject. An important aspect of basic income debate is the speed at which it's changed. I was asked for a second edition of money for everyone. I just four years later, and I read it and it was clear a second edition was not possible. So a whole new book had to be written while we need a citizen basic income. If you're interested in the feasibility of basic income or citizens income just another name for basic income, then that's the book that you need. I was asked to write this for the churches and it will make me of use to churches throughout Europe, not just in the UK. So this is a multidisciplinary approach published just a couple of years ago. And it's each chapter starts off from a different discipline so if you're an economist you'll find a chapter you your historian lawyer or whatever. Another important aspect of the basic income debate is research on feasibility financial feasibility in particular using the best available methods for micro simulation is a vital method to use now and Europe is particularly fortunate in having available a micro simulation program that covers the whole of the European Union and still the UK, I'm pleased to say, and we have access to this program, and it has been used for multiple illustrative basic income schemes. So it's very important for any genuine proposal for Euro dividend to be tested by using a micro simulation program called Euro Mod because only that kind of testing will tell us whether it is financially feasible. If you're interested in the history of basic income. This is only recently been published. It's the first comprehensive history of basic income. So if you have information about the books on the website. Stop sharing my screen. Thanks a lot. Malcolm Tory. It was a very good presentation with a lot of content. My first question for you is about the definition, because in in the interview that Jack Perry did with you a year ago for the Green European Journal. You said among other things. I realized that the commonality of the UBI definition which was the subject of the work of this year's BN Congress was not at all obvious. So my question is, what elements of this definition were the most problematic and is the established finally definition universal enough to be the basis for work on the implementation of the UBI in Europe. That's a very good question. One of the reasons why I do it is that no definition is ever secure simply because any individual can decide to mean what they like by whatever word they like, and nobody can tell them not to mean what they mean by that word. And so there will always be discussion about what basic income means. There will always be discussion about what basic income is in different countries. And just to take two examples, Canada permits what they call a basic income to be income tested, whereas researchers and advocates in most countries around the world would regard that as not a basic income. The idea of a basic income guarantee as they call it can mean almost everything from a negative income tax to a means tested benefit to a basic income, which is somewhat confusing, because it means that when those words are used, nobody can be quite sure what is meant. There is a sense in sticking to the ends definition. And in particular when we do research, it's absolutely vital that we stick to a fundamental agreed definition, because otherwise research cannot be carried out. The Freiburg Institute for Basic Income Studies, which has started a couple of years ago, based in Germany, in Freiburg in Germany, has a micro simulation group amongst the other research groups that it has. And this micro simulation group has in its researchers who use micro simulation programs to test illustrative basic income schemes. That group has of course had to agree a definition of basic income so that those who use that program mean the same thing by the words basic income. Otherwise, we will be publishing research papers and nobody would know what they meant. And so, it is vital that a basic income should have a clear and agreed definition. I always encourage people to use the ends definition. And I always use it in my publications, because otherwise, when I write something people don't know what I mean. A euro dividend has to be defined as an unconditional income for every individual. That is, it's money that everyone would receive once a week or once a month, exactly the same amount for everyone at the same age and nothing would ever affect it. But there is a problem in relation to, would it be the same for every country. And that is a particular problem for the euro dividend and for any debate about a basic income across Europe as to whether it would be the same amount of money everywhere. And that is that it should be the same, because then you gain the most advantage for Europe. There will always be a problem with varying currencies across the European Union. Obviously, many countries use the Europe but not all. And therefore there would be some variation across boundaries as currency exchange rates change. So basic income across the different countries would be important, I think. Okay, and I have still one question. How compatible is basic income with the European Green Deal and the European climate law and ambitious goals of CO2 emissions reduction that the European Union will bring to Glasgow for the COP26. I have a complicated question with a complicated answer and I'll explain why. Many illustrative basic income schemes including all the ones that I research are designed to reduce inequality. That's one of the things that we want to do with basic income we wanted to reduce inequality. The problem is that if we reduce inequality, unfortunately, we increase carbon emissions. Now, that is an unfortunate result of research. The reason that happens is that households with lower incomes spend more of their high proportion of their incomes, immediately on products of the various kinds and on fuel and so on. Then higher income households. So if you give the same amount of money to a higher income household that will be a smaller proportion of that households income and less of the lower proportion of their additional income will be spent on goods and services and they are likely to save more. The lower income household which would be more likely to spend it. And so we have a real problem here. If you decrease inequality you increase carbon emissions and that's worse for the planet. The only answer to that is that you have to match a basic income or a Euro dividend with a carbon tax. The carbon tax would impact low income household incomes, which will be disastrous for low income households. A basic income on its own would increase carbon emissions. The only answer to that is to have a carbon tax and a basic income, because then the basic income will protect the lower income households incomes. And the carbon tax will reduce carbon emissions. And this is a very important news that we get from this from this webinar. As greens for us it's a very important message. So now I will pass to our second speaker. Number thanks for joining us finally. We are happy that you are with us. You are one of the main initiators of activities surrounding basic income in Austria and in Europe and one of the main organizers of the European citizens initiative start and conditional basic income throughout the EU. This is taking place right now in all countries of the European Union. So, Mr. Samber, can you tell us how the European citizens initiative for European basic income has emerged, who is involved in it and what are your objective and hopes. Thank you very much. I have sent you an attachment one and attachment two. Could you be so kind and take attachment one on the screen. So late that had get this information. Yes, thank you very much. Okay, so I will start with the first slide. And this is given here, said, we are speaking about the subjective methods and objectives, and what is a successful CI campaigning countries and milestones and meetings cooperation contacts and so on. So we will go to the first slide please. Yes. So, the start was one comma five years long as a by activists invites and organizations in the EU, asked to support the initiative extended from one year to one year plus nine months, in respect of the beginning of the collection was 25 of September, and and will be 25 of June 2022. And you can find here a link. If you can look to the website, but I have in the next slide given already what you would see in detail. And that is here's a subject matter. Our aim is to establish the introduction of an unconditional basic income throughout the EU, which ensures every person's material existence and opportunity to participate in society as part of its economic policy. And the same shall be reached while remaining within the competence conferred to EU by the treaties. And the next point would be the objectives. We request the European Commission to make a proposal for unconscious basic income throughout the EU, which reduce regional disparities. And to strengthen the economic, social and territorial cohesion in the EU. And this shadow realize the aim of the joint statement by the European Council, the European Parliament, and the European Commission stated in 2017 that the EU and its member states will also support efficient, sustainable, equitable social protection systems to guarantee basic income in order to complete inequality. And the next point is that we say, the signatories only support a launch of the introduction process, but do not describe to the Commission exactly how the implementation of UBI should take place. And that is important, but in the annex, which is included in the official registered ECI, the general principles of the UBI as described how we want to have it. And if you take the next slide. The unconditional basic income is not intended to replace welfare state, but to supplement it and turn the literal compensation state into an emancipatory welfare state. The unconditional basic income is defined by the following four criteria unconditional in universal, individual and high enough to ensure a material existence and participation in society, which meets society's social and cultural standards in the country concerned. The unconditional basic income is a key measure to achieve the objectives of human dignity, freedom and equality expressed in the fundamental EU documents. The annex also contains the provisions of the necessary information that must be provided by applicants as to why they believe that their ECI should be registered, all the specific items in the following documents and then the main documents are mentioned here, Charter of Fundamental Rights, Treaty of the Union and Treaty on Functioning of the European Union. The successful incentive, if the citizen achieve incentive receives at least one million signatures, and at least in seven countries a certain threshold, which is given in the ECI rules, reached in this case, a hearing at the European Commission and the European Parliament will take place. After that, the European Commission has to explain in a justified manner their legal and political conclusions, as well as their further actions or first active actions. And the European Parliament can support the ECI and it assesses the measures of the European Commission. Now, at the moment, we have national coordinators in 25 countries and they are mentioned here, only in Cyprus and Poland, national coordinators are not yet active, available, but we hope we will get also here. But in spite of this, we got and get signatures from all 27 member states and the date in 3rd of October was about 152,176 signatures at the moment. And if you have a short look to the top 13 you find in the second column, the percentage of how much near this country is coming to the threshold, which they have to achieve. At the moment, only one country has already achieved the Slovenia, and we need further six countries, but Germany has 27% Spain, 60, and then a little country Latvia, Latvia, and then we came to Greece, and Estonia, also Netherlands, Bulgaria, Bulgaria, Italy, Portugal, France, and also Austria has got something, but on the last column you see the main countries is Germany with 48,000 signatures at the moment, and Spain with 24,700 and Italy with 15,700 and so on. So, we hope that we can get more and more, and we have therefore in the next column, make the following strategy discussion discussions. If you take the next column please. Three areas of actions of the easier campaign. Number one is certainly, which we have just explained that we want to have one million in seven countries and enough and so on. But then we have number two, the conference on the future of Europe, and number three, assemblies of solidarity citizen take over Europe. These are separate areas of actions that promote each other and increase political pressure on the bodies regarding the ECIS and that is our hope that we can receive very much and we have already get very much support, for example, in the conference of Europe. The milestones, which are already behind the start, which I have mentioned, 25 of September, and then we have also had in the 10th of September 2020, the Human Rights Day, then number one basic income day. On the 9th of May, Europe Day, we have called it ECI sign day, there was many actions, and certainly in August, we had the PN conference, which in my opinion was very successful all over the world, taking discussion about the UBI and ideas about it. And then we had from 20 to 26 of September, say 40, International Basic Income Week, and here again in many countries, many actions in advance and so on, was taken place. The day of Human Rights, the 10th of December 2021, that is now our next step, our next highlight to promote our ECI, we should use the Human Rights Day as a possibility to promote the ECI-UBI in connection with the demand to realize human rights and social Europe with an UBI. So tomorrow we have the next Coordination Team Meeting, where we will discuss it further, how we can go on. The next slide is very short, you can, sorry, next one. We have here only mentioned currently cooperation with and contacts to European NGOs and we have mentioned IMANS, citizen takeover Europe, and also we move. And so that last page is given the contacts from myself and Ronald Plashke and websites and so on. That would cover the European thing. In our attachment to, I would only need three minutes to see some words to that. In parallel to the ECI, we have started in Austria and implementation unconditional basic income. That means we will support both in parallel. We call on a legislator to introduce an unconditional basic income through the federal considerable regulations. This is intended to enable every person with their main residence in Austria to have a dignified existence and opportunity to participate in society. Now a very important sentence was the following because the all different parties in Austria come together because we have this last paragraph, the amount, funding and implementation are to be insured in low in a process in which civil society is significantly involved. That is the point that certainly we know a different kind of how we can finance it in Austria, but there are different ideas and so they come together said it should be at the end if they have received 100,000 signatures and we'll discuss it in our parliament in Austria. If you go a little higher, you will find said the other direction please. Yes, said at the moment we have already 85,500 signatures for Austria, but only 2,400 for Europe. There is a very big difference between Austria and Europe. It is much easier to convince people in their own country as to convince the people, which we want to do in this in a social Europe. It's a moment, some people are not really believing, but we believe it and we want to get through with an ECI for whole Europe, that is our aim. A very important aim. Thank you. That was my short presentation. I have a lot of clouds so this ECI is the second one for the universal basic income. There was one already. So, do you see the European society is ready for a basic income. What are the groups or the political groups or the movements that would support it and which one would be against? How do you see this ecosystem of pro and anti-UBI in Europe? So, from my point of view, in Austria we have the problem that we have a very conservative government, yes, and they are not in favor, but there is a collision with the Green Party and they are a little more already in the direction of unconditional basic income, but not in the complete form as we would like to see it. So, there is an austral problems, but in general, all our national coordinators have problems in their countries because of the pandemic situation. And we have in this one year, which we have already done, compared with the first attempt, not more than at that point in time, even fewer. Now, we have at the moment the possibility, the lockdown is in most of the countries not so heavy anymore, to go also on street with paper and can ask people, please sign also if you don't have a computer because all the people are very reluctant to use internet. They said, I don't believe it. I have always problems with my computer, but I like it if it is functioning. But many people don't like it, but on paper they will give their signatures. And so we hope that now we will come up with much more signatures in the next months. Great, when you are looking for UBI in Europe, up to now it was usually Benelux that was experimenting all the new solutions for the rest of the union and after it was expanded to all the European Union. And where do you see this field of experimentation? So I did understand that Austria for you is that place that this experimentation should take place, but I understood that it was rather national UBI, not the European one. So it's the question for you, but after also for Malcolm, how do you imagine the implementation of the European UBI? Would it be experimented? Should it be experimented somewhere and when and where? And or should it be just the new system and scheme for all the union at the same time? How do you see it Klaus? From my point of view, we have already made so much research and so much different experiments and title projects that we don't need it anymore. We have to introduce it. That is the point. For example, if I take again the situation in Austria, if we are in the Austrian parliament, then we can discuss it and say we decide immediately in one week, yes, we will introduce it and take five years time to make clear all the different complicated points clear. But then in one point in time, we would do it, not as an experiment, but really as introduction. And similar thing, I would hope, should we do also in the whole Europe, in my opinion, we have already so much advantages seen for that, that it will be really possible for people to give freedom and not be angry between each other and so on and so on. There are so many positive aspects that I must say opinion that it should be introduced. That is my opinion, without any further discussion. Michael, how do you do you see this, the way of introducing the Euro dividend in Europe? Well, first of all, we need to discuss the possibility of pilot projects. The only two genuine pilot projects ever to have taken place were in Namibia and India. There have been other experiments, but they haven't been pilot projects and the reason is this. In a country with a developed economy, if a basic income is to be implemented, then other systems will have to change. So other benefits systems, tax rates may have to change and so on. What you can't do is change those for a single community. It's almost impossible to do that. So holding a genuine pilot project in a country with developed economy is almost impossible to do. This is why Finland had to run an experiment that was simply 2000 randomly selected unemployed individuals across the country who had their unemployment benefit made unconditional. It was an interesting experiment. And they did it because that was what they could do without changing existing tax and benefit systems. But if you can't regard it as a pilot project for a basic income, one very good reason that is the country would not be able to afford to roll out that project across the whole country. It would simply not be the money available to do it. So, a genuine pilot projects are almost impossible. And this is why when changes have been made in different countries tax benefit systems. There have never been pilot projects. I actually agree with Klaus that it's actually going to be easier to implement a nationwide basic income than a whole pilot project. We can hold experiments that get close to being pilot projects. And we are going to see I think some of those Scotland would like to do some and Wales would like to do one in the United Kingdom and there are other places that could do them. But if you can get close to pilot project. The reason for doing those is not to prove the basic income would work. It's to educate a population. Yes. And, and that's what pilot projects or experiments that get close to pilot projects can be useful for and the Namibian and Indian pilot projects have been really helpful for that. And the advantages which those pilot communities have reaped from their really quite small basic income. Their basic incomes were nothing like enough to live on but had enormous effects. And that's really important results. We would expect to see the same for any basic income implemented in any other country. Expectation would be that in Europe, there may be a country that implements its own basic income. What would then be like to happen is that other countries would follow. And then you might get a European at the European base. It's unlikely it will happen the other way around simply because the European institutions don't have the ability to implement tax and benefit systems. It's likely that the European countries will give them that competence because it is integral to national sovereignty that you should be able to set your own tax systems and benefit systems. But all of the countries of the European Union would ever be willing to sign a treaty that would hand their ability to fix tax and benefit systems to the European institutions. I think that really is outside the boundaries of possibilities. I'd be very pleased to be proved wrong, but I can't see it. Okay, so I have just one question from the sorry close I have because we are just coming to the end slowly and I have one question from the audience. Why in Mediterranean countries like Italy a basic income could be more critical in the northern Europe. Thanks and thanks a lot for this conference we are welcome. So, would it be more critical in Italy than in the northern countries who would like to pick up this question. I don't know the economy of Italy. Well enough to answer that. What I can say is that in different countries the effects will be different. And so what we know for instance that in India. This effect was the emancipation of women. The first time had incomes of their own. Yes. Now in, in European countries, the, there are still aspects of our tax and benefit systems that are discriminatory. Women in, in, in most European countries I think probably all European countries are either equal or almost equal to men in their economic, in their economic structures. So, so we wouldn't be seeing the same kinds of effects. I actually don't know. What we know is every country is different. And we know that illustrative basic income schemes in different countries look different. And therefore, I think this is something we do need to be aware of that illustrative basic income schemes need to be researched separately in different countries. We have seen, unfortunately, research that imposes a basic income scheme of a single kind on all European countries. And what be the results as we would expect to show that they would make a lot of people poorer. You simply cannot impose the same basic income scheme on every European country. They've got to be designed within each country, but you could, you could implement a basic income in every European country. Okay, great. So I believe that this showing this difference between the basic income and basic income scheme. And it was very important for us to understand that there is no the basic income is possible everywhere. It's just with different basic income schemes and this is important. And the question that we as greens we must take from this webinar also is this incompatibility between the basic income itself and the climate neutrality or ecological objectives. And that carbon tax must go together with your dividend or probably also with any national your universal basic income. So this is something that we must really take care of be be aware of. Thank you very much. Because we are coming to the end. The time is over. Klaus, I give you just a very short, yes, a very short statement because she's climate problematic. Yes, it's clear. And that is the most important thing which have to be done. If you look to the sustainable sustainable development goals, the 17 chapters, you will find, if you would introduce on condition basic income, 11 of the measures in the 17 chapters would be solved. And that means an ecological social transmission. Our society in the better world would be possible if we take this ecological and social aspects together as a very important things and certainly the democratic one said we can really introduce in a democratic way. I believe that we need more research or as you said Malcolm we need to experiment and make research on various basic income schemes in various contexts, and probably this correlation between between the UBI introduction of UBI and the growth of CO2 emissions. It's not universal and maybe the measures to be taken or schemes that can be introduced that this correlation would not be so important. So, shouldn't you become a fiscal union before it reached the question. I have a lot of questions that I did not see at the end of the session. I started at a two minutes past six when time is over. I have a lot of questions now so shouldn't you become a fiscal union before it reached the possibility to introduce implement the UBI and fiscal sovereignty is considered central to national sovereignty. Would it be utopian to think it's possible. So the second question if UBI would be high enough to leave from, wouldn't it be somewhat risky to let the citizens decide for themselves whether they want to work or just leave off UBI so it's rather classic questions but the experimentation and pilots say that it's not true that people continue to work. And the amount in euros of a possible UBI wide UBI be dependent of the price levels in different countries so that's what you said Malcolm that for you, it should be the same UBI everywhere so independently of the prices. And it would it would ensure that the EU UBI will allow to get same amount of goods and services and some links we have some links and the last questions. The UBI be fair and divided between the richest countries of the EU and the poorest, because what is small amount of money in example Luxembourg is, I assume a big amount of money in example Romania, so it's still about the same topic of unique amount of UBI for all European Union. And fourth question, if assumption three is corrected, so the precedent wouldn't migrations between EU countries just increase then. So, so if we have the same UBI everywhere and the value of money is not the same would, if I understand well, wouldn't it provoke the migration from the richest countries to the poorest countries because the UBI would be higher in fact, and Andrew Bravo and insufficient UBI will not be supported for most UBI activists, insufficient UBI would not be supported by for most UBI activists. Let's see if academicians and researchers are able to make UBI happen. So let's wait and see, and let's continue the fight and let's continue the research and let's continue the debate, because we are at the beginning of the road. But COVID-19 showed us that it's not a linear, it's steps, and probably the debate about UBI will come back in force after the next big crisis, maybe for climatic reasons or others. So, definitely it's not the end of the discussion. Thank you very much. Thank you Malcolm Taurif. Thanks, Klaus Sambor. And let's see all together our audience for the next UBI webinar on the 19th of October. Bye bye.