 as they say that once there is a book of Sunjoy Ghosh where he says how Rongo lost his hope, we thought why not we can lose the visibility for some time because they say that the essence lies in the flavor where you're moving around and as I was talking around that Sunjoy Ghosh carries his own reputation with the wit not only in the court but outside the court and they say a lawyer who can carry things in a lighter way not only lessen the stresses of himself the courtroom as well as all those persons who are watching that but be that as it may his book as we all know is doing extremely well we will ask if he has that book you can share that cover of that book definitely we will be sharing the link of that book in our whatsapp books so that those who know him already know him but those who will hear him today are quite sacrosanct to the effect that they would love that why not instead of virtually hearing him why not have the taste of that book physically and give a mental stimulus to that entire events and when we are talking of the challenges insights into the world of litigation we thought there could be a better person like Sunjoy Ghosh who can give the insights into the world of litigation there are challenges I must say and when I was reading on the SCC online his entire book discusses about that aspects the book we have already is doing well it gives us what are the challenges what are the ups and downs as we all know that in the profession not only in the law but in other fields it's definitely a challenge but as they say when the going gets tough the tough gets going and that's the key what Sunjoy told me is the take to carry things forward and being the weekend bothering him when he was at his hometown but once they say that you have a knowledgeable person you can't control his knowledge to be controlled in a it's just like a bottle of perfume once you open it the aroma has to spread and despite being in Calcutta we thought why not catch up over to you Sunjoy. Thank you Vikas for having me I hope we can at one stage make it more interactive and I'll be most happy to entertain questions from everyone but am I audible that's the most important question which was asked during the pandemic through VCs and ports my lord am I audible. Actually we are not addressing them my lord is it audible. So let me start by first exposing Vikas a little bit or rather defending him it is both an exposure of Vikas and a defense of Vikas. Poor Vikas was very serious about putting some serious stuff for you guys and he and we've sat together and we tried to think our heads through various serious topics ranging from the social security code to the uniform civil core and ultimately I told him Vikas I'm in vacation and let's come up with something which is easy and which does not require too much preparation. So that's how we came up with this rather all expansive topic which is insights into litigation which means nothing. So those who have logged in thinking that you will get the five steps to success well you may be disappointed A because there are no five steps to success in litigation and there are no insights except as they say practice and practice which only you will have to experience and as a matter of fact the first thing which I always feel is that there is so much of space in the litigation world for everyone you know we can talk about how restrictive litigation is uncle judges sons and daughters of judges and lawyers and those entry difficulties but ultimately if you're competent if you're hardworking and if you're determined to make make your life you know your own formula and you have your own insights. I can't pretend to sit here in one hour and give you you know these the formulae five-point rule etc so I can tell you in advance that you will be disappointed and frankly I have been accused of over promotion of my book Vikas so I'm not here to promote to promote my book either which is why I don't even have a copy to flash on the screen but let me say that I'm very happy to have you invite me because it's a vacation time and we are all more relaxed and it is it is difficult in it is difficult it has been a difficult two years during the pandemic I'm told that I'm told that seniors have have really made it easy the pandemic has been very good for seniors to travel all the way from London to Delhi to Rajasthan to the trial court to the Supreme Court everywhere and a certain section of people have made a lot of money has become very convenient but so far as so far as another section of people are concerned they have they have really really suffered during the pandemic especially the young lawyers especially those lawyers who have just come into practice or who have just become independent so as we are opening up it is it is a challenge for many to you know get into the groove so as to say so now you know this is the only thing which I would say and this is an advice I have for a lot of young students are young law students are young lawyers and maybe this is a sign of age but you must have patience you know one thing is that in litigation as I said and I'm repeating myself that you can't have a chicken soup for the soul kind of series you can't have you can't have a ready-made instant Maggi kind of solution so therefore it is only through the dent of hard work and that means and that means you'll have to you know labor on slog on not expect instant results because it is a very slow moving profession and therefore you know I have seen so many so many young law students young lawyers reach out to me and they are changing their their job for the you know if you can call it a job whatever they're changing their engagement three four times in one year because they already feel that oh I've been in a trial court and I've learned everything in three months now I want to be in a high court and I want to learn everything in the next one. One minute because somehow there was we had allowed unmute to everyone so sometimes there was a glitch so I'm muting everyone then you unmute yourself in a minute yeah yeah you can do that enjoy you can unmute yourself yes so as I was saying as as I was saying that so you know like for example young laws young young lawyers are are coming into the profession and within six months they are wanting to change their jobs and they feel that they have learned everything what they have to learn and that is not something which I would recommend that you do it is just give me a minute just give me a minute please yes am I audible now okay so therefore so therefore you know what I would advise is that you have some kind of patience and you'll have to give yourself that time to be able to to to learn everything a lot of a lot of learning happens even sitting in court waiting for the others waiting for your case and listening to other people so a lot of young lawyers find the proceedings a little hard and I know during pandemic it's even become difficult because you don't want crowded crowded courtrooms so people tend to come out of the courtroom and they they tend to talk with their colleagues they tend to go to the canteen of course canteen is very important especially the Delhi High Court canteen and the Chandigarh High Court canteen have acquired iconic status but at the same time you know it is important to be inside court watch how the how the judge reacts learn how lawyers who are senior to you tackle difficult situations and these are these are learnings which you will not get in law school I mean there is no kind of practical kunji or some kind of textbook which is going to be teaching you all this okay so this is very important to observe very important to to go through the whole grind so as to say that's one the other is and this is very important I would feel that please stop comparing because if you start comparing you will be in difficulty okay now everyone knows that there is a mukul rodgi and there is a Hari salvi I'm naming them by names because Dr Singh we they are they are legends of the bar but everyone can't be that and you should be aspiring we don't aspire to be a mukul rodgi or a Hari salvi or a singhvi or a shanjoy or a vikas or anyone you aspire to be yourself you are unique and you have to cultivate that uniqueness in you so therefore if you start comparing especially with your classmates okay my classmate is in litigation is in corporate sector he or she is earning this much and look at me or oh my my classmate is the son of a judge and he's getting these panels and I'm not getting this it is only going to cause you a lot of heartburn so that is not something which you should be doing focus on yourself focus on your growth path focus on your unique talents if you feel that you are good in mediation in alternate dispute resolution then focus on that everyone does not have to be an arguing council if you feel your your forte is is documentation drafting then focus on that if you feel that you are a good you're good at arguments or good at research so focus on that so you know that is of course this is my advice to the young lawyers not to those who are already established so this is very important and I have and I have benefited especially from you know lawyering is actually a psychological science not many people understand that because it is we lawyers tend tend to be good psychologists and in fact you know I have got a lot of matrimonial work and in India we have a woeful lack of matrimonial counselors and lawyers willy-nilly and and it's dangerous I understand but lawyers willy-nilly end up also being counselors so at overtime you you you pick up that skill which is also important because you are constantly judging or psychologically analyzing the person in front of you so you have to in the courtroom be analyzing the opponent analyzing the judge often if you are practicing the same forum you you you already acquire that knowledge database right because that is already there but if you're for example going to a new court I recently went to Chandigarh and I did not practice what I am telling you right now instead of sitting in the court of the of that judge concerned I went with my local instructing council and we went and had Chai in the canteen and I suffered because of that I should have rather been in court and observed the judge because it was a new judge for me it's a new court for me and see how he reacts what is his or her approach to an injunction to a claim of a worker or a management or to an adjournment so these are very important things which you pick up only by actually seeing what is happening well the other thing which I you know want to say and and address this elephant in the room there's a lot of there's a lot of hard burn about the national law universities and now we have a lot of national law universities and a lot of the products you know when I went to law school in 1996 and you know because my book is a little semi-autobiographical which you know it doesn't take a lot of rocket science to figure that out so the character Gaurango also is almost you know coincidentally at the same time going to law school and when he's going to law school as I went to law school the national law school Bangalore people never had heard of law as a profession where actually people went all the way so to south of India to study you know if you couldn't get in anywhere the law was like the last option and you would do it in the local law school but now of course it's very competitive and you have already a body of alumni in your body of network of of national law national law university students or graduates and there is a feeling that the that firms prefer or top lawyers prefer to to engage such people graduates of NLU's now I'm not going to pretend that that is not true it is true because of obviously because now NCAT and all are so competitive that you have you know lacks of people who give this exam and only the creme de la creme gets selected so obviously there is a presumption that these students are the smartest of their contemporaries so obviously and there is of course this alumni preference but it is important like you are you are setting up this network of CLC students so beyond CLC so it is important to build a solidarity base and like whether the NLU people have done it even at the non-NLU level or even at your individual level with friends whether they be from NLU's or they are not it is important to build these kind of networks you see the moment we stop believing that we have to be competitive the moment we stop believing that you know I can only prosper if I if I grab the case myself and and I keep the other person out of it the moment we start believing that actually there's space under the sun for everyone the moment that's the moment when you realize that there's actually a lot of opportunity to to to use your knowledge set for example what I'm saying is that if you have a good diverse base and if you start building your networks for example let's say you practice only in the high court and your friend is a person who practices let's say in the district court of the city civil court or whatever or if you that you practice only in the branch of let's say labor law or let's say property law and your friend or your colleague is practicing in in the in the realm of criminal law that's when you build this kind of you know a kind of an informal or even formal kind of a network where you do this this case assignment where you encourage that a person a client comes to you you send that client to the to your friend and also your friend when it is an area of your specialization does that with you now of course this also you know let's not be naive this already is happening but what I'm saying is at one level there is a need to institutionalize this and the last thing and then I'm done with my monologue and let's then you know open it up and let's have discussions the last thing and I feel and this again I'm addressing to you know I have a lot of a lot of supporters a lot of well wishers among the young lawyers and I don't deserve the love and affection that I get from so many of them but I really feel that the voice of the young lawyers are not heard at all so what we have in the bar associations and this is not a case only of Delhi or Chandigarh and I'm sure this is a case everywhere else where you only have the select few as it is as it is it is only those established lawyers who run for these elections and it takes a lot of money a lot of muscle power a lot of resources to even you know try for these offices and ultimately when these people gain control of these bar associations there is obviously this whole thing of you scratch my back and I scratch my back with the bench and it's normally status quo which is what it veers towards that you know it's a little tinker here and there but hardly the real issues of of young people get get addressed the real issues for example I can you know name some of the elephants in the room which people will not name for example giving of local commissions appointing as arbitrators for small matters you know there has to be a way where you encourage a kind of a database or a kind of an application court wise where the bar association cooperates with the respective high courts or district courts and you set up a mechanism a merit based open competitive mechanism whereby everyone who need who need not be related or connected to a judge or a senior lawyer can be can have his or her name in this kind of data panel and there is a system whereby everyone gets a chance to be appointed as a local commissioner or as an arbitrator or any kind of you know assignment where lawyers get opportunities young lawyers get opportunities including of course legal aid and panels of legal aid also you know we have to at one level address the kind of opening again this is a big elephant in the room the opening remuneration that is paid to young lawyers and it is woefully pathetic in fact you know after and especially now that law education is much more expensive than it earlier was and we know how the the cost of living is like for example in Chandigarh if you expect someone to hire a room even in mohali or wherever particular or inside beauty and have a more bike a bike and commute from here and there and come to court have a cell phone and a bike I mean just imagine the expenses of that the rent cell phone and bike is enough and I don't know what the opening salaries are but I am told it's in the range of 2025 that also in this day and age is becoming very very less especially we let's understand we are dealing with actually technically post graduates because many of them are doing their graduation and then three years of law and that's some something which really has to be addressed of course the bar council recently said senior council should take 15 people and all that but that's again impractical and these are all political somewhere some kind of mechanism has to be made out the bar association can also in every state consider having some kind of mechanism whereby they are the ones who will have you know like you know like you have an aggregator system for uber uber ola the the taxis and airports well why can't we use that kind of a same system whereby the bar association has a separate a subcommittee which deals with the issues of young lawyers and you know forms a system whereby these young lawyers who require placements a long time temporary short time permanent are able to be placed with the chambers of seniors and they are not left on their own to send applications here and there and the seniors also can notify their needs when as a senior I don't mean designated seniors only I mean people who are senior in the profession can also notify their needs like a clearing house for the bar association so that there is some openness in this process and we have to now open up and I understand that in my heart breaks when every time we have to you know say no I get so many applications from people all over the country on a daily basis and it breaks my heart to often say that you know I do not have the place to keep you or the infrastructure or the resources but surely there can be some kind of system where if this whole process becomes a little transparent and fair for these people if we don't do that and if we just go on pursuing what we are doing that is making money doing our own case doing our self promotions I don't know how long we can sustain this system this system as it is is at breakpoint and let me tell you and this is something which gives me a lot of hope the young lawyers today are much much more courageous than we were or our previous generations were and I don't have to tell you there are so many legends of the Supreme Court who are venerated who have been given national awards but when it comes to actually speaking for the lawyers speaking for justice speaking for real issues speaking against the the the way the independence of the judiciary is subverted they will keep silent because the status quo helps them because ultimately they have to get their practice and they have to go and get those uh they have to get those orders those discretionary orders will come in their favor only if they keep quiet and I feel at some place we have to reconcile this quietitude and the need to have a more democratic bar need to have a bar which really is able to cater to the changing character of legal education and and and law graduates at one level the legal education is transformed you have these nlu's you have these students who are going into coaching and tutorial even in class 10 11 12 for cracking the clack spending lacks on that and then spending lacks in legal education and then many of them go abroad and get llm's and ultimately when they come back you are telling them to inject themselves in that legal profession where we are still fossilized and we are still playing the rules of let's say the previous century and and this is I I'm sorry to sound so negative because I'm a normally a very optimistic person but I feel that if the bar is unable to address this issue we are going to see a breakpoint in the future because you're going to have a lot of frustrated people um earlier of course with the economy doing very well a lot of these people not by some by choice many by choice but many by lack of alternatives have got themselves absorbed in non-litigation activity but as we see the the there are economic issues there's a there's a downturn which the nation is facing you are going to have more and more people who are left with less and less options so this is actually a wake up call I don't know whether you know we have been humorous or witty and it is a saturday evening but I thought you know we should also flag the serious things when we are having this this conversation incidentally just to end on a on a humorous note when I wrote this book I thought I was writing a very serious book and I was writing you know in the first wave this was written in the in march april of 2020 and then of course took its own time to come out and when the publisher was pushing this as a humorous book and designed this very catchy you know I think it's a very catchy cover my first reaction was oh god I mean I thought I wrote something very serious and you seem to say it's very humorous uh so so this is where I just want to end by plugging in because I went totally off-topic because because you had told me to add in a little dash of humor or the or talk about the importance of humor in port so I would say that you know it is very important two things are very important please and I'm not plugging my book only here please also read other stuff just don't go by law law law you never know when that knowledge that particular that particular reading and I know it's difficult for for lawyers especially young lawyers who are so busy doing their work to actually get time to read but it's very important to have your knowledge based diverse because that's where you make a difference in court when you're able to make a cross-reference and say something which is not there in the in in in what you what you've just read in your formal legal books number one and number two more importantly often humor is a very very good way of making your point or or or getting a comeback in court which you know seriousness we often take ourselves too seriously but humor and we have seen that humor coming from the bench and we have seen the humor coming so for example when Hidayatullah was told that you know I have a judgment the lawyer in the Supreme Court said I have a judgment which lot ships have given sitting in Madhya Pradesh High Court so lot ships are bound by this judgment now Hidayatullah could have been very angry and said no what nonsense I will not be bound by this or be embarrassed he just smiled and said yes counsel yes it's true that I wrote this judgment when I was in Madhya Pradesh High Court but now I'm wiser so humor always whether it be from the bench or whether it be from the bar is a very very good aid in litigation and I would always recommend it let's not take ourselves so seriously as we do always thank you because I think I've rambled on enough if there are any questions I'll be most happy to take them we have allowed everyone uh so ever we will just ask them so that they may maintain some decorum but they can we have allowed everybody can unmute himself and they can pose the questions since normally we don't allow it in this session because what Sir Joy said so we thought that again coming back to his board that if we lost that goal to become oh we couldn't participate in that in practice session so that oh from oh is the entire difference in the law and Shekhar Kumar though we have allowed him but he says as a first-generation lawyer how to pick the right senior okay now again on a serious note nowadays at the time of judicial appointments and it is very sad in many cases the government is actually noticing which senior you worked with and often judicial appointments are rejected or judicial appointments are delayed because the senior who you chose 25 years ago when you were a young law student just freshly graduated see who is not in the good books or not in the good list of the government of the day and that gets a problem so if you're interested in a judicial career pick that senior who's least controversial but again you may not know in 25 years how controversial he or she may turned out to be but otherwise you know it is very important a senior is a mentor and it is very very important that you don't look at a senior from the viewpoint and this is what I said at the book release also that you know unlike other seniors I to be very honest I worked with Ms. Indira Jai Singh and I hardly have that way been encouraged by Ms. Jai Singh in the sense that she's forwarded any case to me she's encouraged anyone in any any company to put me in their panel etc it is true that many seniors do that some people who are blessed to be in good chambers the seniors promote them ensure that they are put in panels if the seniors are law officers then they are also put in junior panels but let me tell you this very interesting story of Jinnah and MC Chagla the Chief Justice of the Bombay High Court was Jinnah's junior and he writes in his in his book that a very lucrative case came to Jinnah and Jinnah was asked you name any junior from your chamber and I will engage him and Chagla was actually thinking that his senior Muhammad Ali Jinnah would actually recommend him but he didn't and he says he was very angry then and he later realized that ultimately Jinnah was giving the ultimate lesson to him that you have to be self-made so as I was saying in the book release what I what I learned from my senior and normally don't when you're choosing a senior don't see what I will get in terms of briefs in terms of opportunities of course that is also relevant consideration but also consider what I will learn and to in in today's age we forget the learning aspect we are always looking at this may stick your contact with a cat network with a cat exposure. Think of what I will learn what values I will learn what exposure I will get not in the terms of clients but in the time in the in the form of of the ecosystem of the senior because around the senior if for example for example I can tell you Miss Jessing had Mr. Ravindrava, Justice Ravindrava and Justice Mulder briefing her and it is through working in her chamber that I got to know these two phenomenal judges and you know I used to call them Ravi and Murli and they were okay with it in in in those days I'm talking about 97 98 and that's how a lifelong association happened and I'm so blessed to have been in the company and seen these two amazing judges you know develop their judicial career and I would say that is only because I had the opportunity of working in in my senior's chamber. You rightly said that you have to choose the office properly they say they are only three stages year learn and earn and they say that when you learn automatically you lose the you just don't lose the hope and it becomes your own. So this is Pritam Patrao in Supreme Court of India how do you achieve your dream as becoming a first-generation lawyer in the right Well you know what is your your your takeaway or what you want you know I can tell you Partho with age I'm an old man so with age your goals mellow at the end of the day when you are so Rumi has this beautiful quote no Rumi says that I'm young and therefore I want to change the world and now I am old and therefore I want to change myself and there is some bit in that you know as a first-generation lawyer the issue is what is it you want to achieve and everyone can't be everything everyone can't be the top but trust me if you work hard there is place for everyone now so so far as what is what is it you want to achieve depends on what is your ambition if your ambition is to provide for your family you will provide for your family if your ambition is to make tons of money then you have to work towards that goal but as a first-generation lawyer there are there are positives and there are negatives what is the positive let's deal with the everyone knows the negatives let's deal with the positives the positive is that it's a clean slate you're not going to be judged by your grandfather father mother whoever is the person who is bringing you into the bar number two your career is independent of that person I agree you know even in Chandigarh I know many people even maybe from my law school who had a lot of initial impetus and and career growth only because they they came from established families of judges or lawyers and that is something we have to accept you see because the legal system has not grown beyond the way it is to accept a meritocratic system so therefore being a connected second-generation lawyer or a son of a judge with uncle judges it has its advantages but the disadvantage also is that these are temporary of course if you are very competent and you have you're a second-generation with uncle judges and uncle lawyers you get that fillip and then you are sailing and you are cruising and you are there but remember if you don't then you have a chance of your career ending when that judge retires and we have seen that also everyone knows those kind of cases where you're heavily briefed where your father is in the supreme court father retires and then you're gone that kind of cases are also there but as a first-generation lawyer it is up to you you are writing the book you are the author you will fashion your career you will fashion your destiny and you ultimately yes the the journey is difficult the journey is longer but ultimately the pleasure of having achieved it on your own is immeasurable. This is I am an undergraduate and law wanted to know careers and solicitorships in your words. Career and solicitorship now see solicitor concept is completely gone in places in in North India I I'm assuming only two places where it's still thriving I'm not very sure about Madras but two places it's thriving are in Calcutta and in and in Bombay the old charter courts. So now as a solicitor of course again there that you know technically even in Britain this happened solicitors also want to argue so even the standard that the usual distinction between a solicitor and lawyers also breaking up but the career if you are if you find yourself that you want to be in the law you know in a law firm as they say. So law firms also have the concept of mind a find a grinder someone who finds someone who minds someone who grinds so you have to and again don't be harsh on yourself give yourself an opportunity of all roles I started off my first one year was working in a consulting firm not doing a legal job at all and then you realize this is not what you want to do so as I said that give yourself the time give yourself all the exposure and then ultimately decide what you want to do and at the same and at the same time have it in your heart to be able to say that okay this is not what I want to do and I'm okay okay I went up the wrong path let me now do the right path so if you are looking to establish a law firm if you are looking more of a of a practice where you don't want to be an arguing counsel or a senior advocate then a solicitorship is what you should look at and the cities which you are looking at mostly are Delhi and sorry Bombay and Calcutta but otherwise of course in Delhi and other places also there are law firms which are though they're not technically called solicitors but they are doing solicitor practice in as much as their briefing councils so that's also something you have to keep in mind if you are passionate about arguing cases in court etc you might find this not to your suiting not to your liking because ultimately you will be doing the hard work and there'll be some other lawyer who will be coming and arguing and getting all the kudos in court. You say that the difference is just like in director and an actor. Solicitor becomes the director and the actor gets the all the accolades. Yeah but unless you can be Karan Johar then everyone remembers the director as well. The effect of the social media. And he says could you please tell the book that had an impact on your life as a lawyer? The book that had an impact on life. See if people who in Delhi High Court know me you know I'm not so technology friendly so though I have a Kindle I prefer using the like while waiting for this case I was reading this book. So even in court I always carried a book and I can proudly say that it became a trend. Many lawyers also started carrying a book because a lot of time we end up wasting you know you know that's why the pandemic was so great because we were able to minimize wastage of time which happens in physical court. So I would always carry a book with me and I still do. I carry a book and I read a book. I have read various kinds of fiction, nonfiction, graphic novels are something which I like. I'm very interested in the genocide which is the killing of the Jews by the Nazi Germany. So a graphic novel called Maus. Maus means Maus in German. Maus by Arsh Peebelman is something which really changed my life. The graphic novels Osamu Tezuka brilliant graphic novels by this Japanese creator of manga comics is also something which I liked. The princely imposter is a book which I earlier also spoke about in another interview which also is an amazing book on the trial of Bhawal Sanyasi's case which is the as you know which was the longest civil trial and the most enigmatic trial where you dealt with this question of identity the whole concept of hearsay evidence. The trial of Oscar Wilde also if you can get please read the trial of Oscar Wilde the transcript of the trial you it'll it's amazing. Then the book on Ramjeet Milani the rebel the Nani Palkiwala's courtroom genius Fali Nariman's books are you know they are quite you know they go here and there for me they don't work for me and even the son's books are too voluminous for me I have not even tried to read them but Nani Palkiwala Granville Austin's working of a democratic constitution something again I loved reading Granville Austin I love reading Bobindadash on the identity of the Supreme Court. It is amazing the kind of work that was done and it's not done today because today since 1980s hardly there is Abhinav Chandrachur's book on the Bombay High Court is also very good he's a very young and upcoming lawyer and writes very well so you wanted one book I've given you so many books. It is a typical as they say a lawyer it's my brief and it runs into hundreds of pages and once you were talking of Mr. Jaisal Chagla roses in December I thought you would be speaking about that. Yes roses in December but let me tell you a judge from your High Court neither roses nor thorn was very disappointing so if you're reading H.R. Khanna's book it's not written in good prose though of course he writes from the heart but yeah it's mandatory reading if you should read his book but it's not literature wise it's not a good book. I'm reminded of Shakespeare some people have liked it it says nothing is good or bad but thinking makes it so your taste makes it so. No one can beat you at Reparte Vikas. Nothing it says Aman Kapoor as a junior in a senior council chamber often we see the machine and work as a wonderful arguments delivered with just some hours of preparation. How can you junior learn to grab skills especially arguing skills in a senior chamber? Okay this is what I keep telling my juniors and often they disappoint me often the most often they don't but when they disappoint me I tell them this I got my first opportunity to argue almost four years into my senior's chamber for four years I did not open my mouth in court so this is very important for everyone to learn this this itchiness to be able to be heard to get an order to then post it in social media to have bar and bench reported. As a junior in a senior's chamber the most important thing that you learn is that you are arguing before the senior who's the judge so that is your trial prepare the case as if you are the arguing council do your research do your one page summary get your get your case law do everything do everything that you have to do and then brief your senior as if you're briefing a judge so that is your trial that is your preparation and ultimately often and this would happen to especially people who have lady seniors like I had will realize often you end up saying ma'am because it's unconscious because when you're briefing always saying ma'am ma'am and then for a male judge often it come out you say ma'am and then you realize that no so as a junior focus on your senior your senior is the court for you that is your training ground for you. They say the grind lies in that and you're saying that for four years you didn't do the practice I'm reminded of the Chinese saying that the bamboo trees don't shoot up for many years and ultimately when they shoot up they shoot up beyond all the other trees so they say that the if the foundation is strong the superstructure will automatically be strong so that's the key what Joy says and one Hamza says would you recommend one sufficient one practice sufficiently in the lower court high court and then progress to supreme court or should one direct join high court or supreme court council chamber directing. Okay so in in the book I bring in a quote from what actually happened in our real life where a professor asked so what law will you practice and everyone said I'll do this I'll do that I'll do this and ultimately the professor said you are fools you will practice where your clients take you so that having been said I would always recommend and now of course my recommendation is again impractical because everyone can't do what I'm going to tell you I was lucky enough to be able to do it I will always recommend a stint in the supreme court for one or two years before you go and start back from the trial court or start away from start right away from the trial court or the high court if you can do it try it because once you are in the supreme court and you have the ability as an appellate lawyer to grasp a brief and maybe because I started off as an appellate court lawyer I realized that I feel that maybe I'm wrong but it always grounds you because you realize that even when you're drafting that legal notice you are drafting ultimately thinking that appellate lawyer sitting in the supreme court having to find some point from that legal notice on how the supreme court will ultimately see this case 20 years from now when it reaches the supreme court so it always gives you that overall perspective that this is how it will be so that one or two years in the apex court grounds you or gives you that equips you for this but that having been said I'm conscious that everyone can't rush to supreme court so whatever you do whatever trial you start with the trial court you start with the high court wherever you start my advice will be that as I said and I'm now repeating give it sufficient time number one and number two don't confine your knowledge to only that particular court you must read about what is happening if you're a high court lawyer read about what is happening and nowadays with technology with bar ban bar and bench live law leaflet and all you have live tweeting everyone knows what's happening in the trial court in all these cases follow everything follow procedures I always feel that people who practice in the trial court are so grounded in civil and criminal procedure which is missing amongst us lawyers who actually did not have the opportunity to start from the trial court so this is a this is a difficult one this is a choice which you have to take depending on the kind of opportunities that you're getting so if you're getting an opportunity to work with a very very fantastic top-class senior straight away out of law school then I would say take it go to the supreme court but if you're getting an opportunity of hands on working in the trial court at times that may be better because that really gives you an opportunity of hands-on training which if you are one of the 10 juniors of a top-class senior sitting in the supreme court that may not give you that opportunity nicely put across that once you practice on the top you know how to structure your arguments but at the same time when you talked about the legal notice if you practice in trial court you also show that you have to be more like an astronomer than the man who saw tomorrow and before I we conclude for the session the man who was the bridge between me and Joy and all this Dabdeep had joined though he was in Roorkee but as I said good evening I I requested Mr Chathrat to arrange a topic you know something like the impact of rock music on on law and and he assured me that that would be it but I mean I saw the poster in sites into the world of litigation but I'm happy I joined still and so nice to have you here and I hope Mr Chathrat brings you more often to Chandigarh virtually if not physically and it was also very nice to hear you you know talk to youngsters on the fact that I mean kind of saying that don't look for publicity or your judgments all over the social media I find this is a very I would say disturbing but this is a very funny trend because in in our profession the only word that matters is the word of mouth and you cannot go around flouting your judgments or the orders you've I mean argued in court and and advertising yourself which is as it is not allowed in this profession and I really liked it when you when you you know told all of them that don't look for such publicity and there's there's only one way of doing that hard work I mean whether your first generation second generation third generation doesn't matter if you're a hard worker you're bound to succeed and success would come only through word of mouth and your ethics and your your practices and not through social media or or publicity and once again thanks a lot for coming over to Beyond Law CLC and I mean Mr Chathrat also I'm really grateful for you I mean to you for organizing this and hope to see you more often here thank you so much thank you Naveen so like we can end up the session by saying that if you are the well and willing to drill and the drill then as I say that and you can always do well and we will conclude what we started at the first instance the profession is more like a bottle of perfume the moment you open the bottle your knowledge spreads and people start engaging you thank you Sunjoy and thank you Naveen for connecting with us and sharing your knowledge thank you everyone's taking thank you have a great weekend all of you and thank you all for joining thank you and tomorrow we have a session on the part two of Justice K.T. Sankaran on the amendments of the Court of Civil Procedure do stay connected with us tomorrow thank you everyone stay safe stay blessed and keep on learning from people like Sunjoy thank you Namaskar