 Welcome back to the breakfast on PLOS TV Africa. Another day and another strike, that seems to be the life of the academic staff union of universities. The union is planning to begin another strike action over unpaid salaries, as who says more than 1,000 of its members are old, 13-month salaries and check-off dues. We've invited the National Coordinator of Education Rights Campaign, Hassan Soweto, to join us this morning. Thanks for joining us. Good morning, Hassan. Yeah, good morning. Thanks for having me. Thanks for joining us. It's a little heartbreaking, I believe, for members of the academic staff union of universities. But what seems to have gone wrong once again? It's the same old story. Government is a charity. The government makes an agreement with the unions. Agreement that it knows it's not going to implement, that is what has led to the cycle of industrial actions and strikes in the educational sector. The major problem is government sincerity. We did not start with this government, but this government has continued their practice. Okay, and we had agreements about payment of salaries and that was one of the reasons the strike was suspended in the first place. So does it mean that none of those payments have been made and none of those salaries have been given to the lecturers? Like the chairman of ASU Unigus and the president of ASU explained in the papers yesterday, what is clear is that some salaries have been paid, but it's not been a generalized payment. So that you still have on many campuses and universities, you know, lecturers who are saving hold some backlog of salaries. And like the president of ASU also alleged, it appears that the federal government is trying to use the payment of the salary as a sort of a means or tool to compel the lecturers to join the IPPIS. So there are vast situations in some universities whereby lecturers who are great to join the IPPIS would have their salary paid almost immediately whereas those who do not want to join, the government has been more or less to wallow the union. They keep asking the union to send the details of those lecturers, like their bank details and all of that. And when these are sent, you know, a few weeks after the same government would again ask that some new document should be sent, apparently just to continue to wallow the union. So these are the things that have been happening since the strike was suspended. And that is why the union is saying that once again they might take part of strike if things do not, I mean, are not resolved. Alright, Hassan, how would you say this particular situation of, you know, the cycle like you described it, government into insincerity, failure to pay salaries of lecturers, also non-academic staff as well? How would you say this is affecting the image and in fact the quality of federal education in Nigeria? And what really is the plight or the rights of students in all of this? You know, it's been very tragic for the educational sector because the last strike, you know, was even more painful given the fact that you had last year a station by a student lost about four months due to the pandemic and then only for the strike to now prolong the ploy of the university even for several more months. So that you have a station where by maybe nearly 10 months out of last year was lost in the university system and where you go way back into the past two decades, for instance, you realize that, you know, you'll be counting the losses in terms of years, you know, that the university system has lost and the impact on students, you know, is unquantifiable. You know, you have students who just waste away in the university spending years and by the time they virtually graduate they have lost the zeal, you know, they have lost the drive. So people just graduate feeling completely despondent and unsure of their future. So it is also hard into the frustration that Nigerian students have on their face and the youth face on a daily basis. And for the economic sector itself, it also means that for lecturers who have to go through that process of having to go on strike just for the P not that is a salary to be paid, it makes them to lose every sense of commitment to the system. So we have also had an increase in brain drain, for instance, with lecturers who want to stick with the country. They are having to take every opportunity that they get to run after the country. And so the consequence, the price is so steep. And that is why it is important that the working people, the labor movement as a whole, parents and students have to see how they can join us to be able to make the government to do what is right. Because like we always say, the challenge actually is not that there's not enough resources to fund education or to meet the demands of ASU and other unions. But what has been the crisis is a part of the capitalist arrangement in Nigeria whereby those in power do not have any belief that government ought to be utilised as a means to satisfy the needs of people. That is the major reason why this crisis is happening. And that is why we need to solidarise with the struggles of ASU in order to ensure that the government is compelled to do what is right. And at the same time, there's also the need to fight for a socialist transformation of the country because Nigeria has enough resources to fund education to ensure that this cycle of industrial action and strike is broken. But without a working people's government that really believes in public education, this crisis will continue and are definitive. Alright. I want us to also address those who say that ASU might be a little inconsiderate and they maybe should consider the plight of students here and sign off with the IPPIS, let education go on instead of mostly just thinking of themselves only. So how would you address those views? Actually, I think those views are a little bit off here and also maybe those views also do not show a clear understanding of the crisis in the agricultural sector. ASU is also guided by its own experiences and also the experiences of others. ASU has watched the other sectors of the agricultural sector get completely destroyed. ASU has seen the primary sector, the secondary sector completely destroyed. And it realizes that if as a union, it also applies the same compromising stance that unions in these other sectors utilize which are enabled the government over the decades to be able to chip in, to be able to chip away rather, that the same tragedy could also happen to the tertiary education sector. Because what it will mean really is that ASU will just focus on the welfare of its own members. And once they get some, I mean, improvement in the salaries of their members, then they will not see anything again. That will mean that there will be very few strikes. But the consequence will be that the funding of education will even go down much more than we know of it now. The cost of education will go up atrociously. And it will mean that what we know of public education today will not be there at all, the public, the private universities and all the ones that will take over. One of the benefits of ASU struggle over the years is that despite everything, it has actually compelled the government to even pay lip service to its responsibilities. But if there was no such in-state resistance over the decades, you know, we will not have anything to talk about when it comes to public university systems. So I understand the pain of people when they talk like this also. It's also because of how this affects all of us. But we also have to play the blame where it actually lies. And that is why I would keep on saying that the government has to be taken up. Because the same thing that they are doing to ASU, they are doing it to other categories of workers. If we look at other sectors of the Nigerian economy today, it's the same thing, same sincerity, same refusal to do what it's trying to do to provide for the needs of those who are truly matters. And this has to stop. Alright. Ms. Hassan, last question from me. What would you say is the best model for university education in Nigeria that will put an end to strikes once and for all? The only model that I see is a public education system that is well funded with provision of adequate facilities and infrastructures for students and staff to flourish with the recognition of the democratic system. I think that's the best model. I think that's the best model. I think that's the best model. I think that's the best model. I think that's the best model. Yeah. We have to contribute to the unfair nature of climate change towards schools. We have to contribute to the staff to flourish with the recognition of democratic rights of students and staff. And also with the awareness that education ought to be linked to driving economic growth and agree with all the people. still? Oh yes. Go ahead please, go ahead. Oh yes, funded by the government. The whole idea of a private funding of education is an illusion. The what it will lead to is an equal access to education. We have seen it in other sectors, in the healthcare sector. It has meant that the people's life and health is now back again on the basis of their ability to pay. That can be the way forward when society that is flowing in natural resources and all and an enormous capacity. We need to restore the idea of public funding of education. If the facilities for students and staff to work with are provided, there will be less of industrial action or protest because lecturers and students do not necessarily want disturbance. As we have identified during the course of this interview, these students are even the worst victim of some of these things. So nobody wants trouble. But when it gets to a point whereby students are not able to have quality education or the cost of fees is beyond what they can afford or lecturers, you know, have to, you know, confront hunger even though they are working. There's no way they are not going to research to some form of protest or the other. So the only way to restore peace and harmony is to ensure that the funding of education is appropriately done and the facilities are provided. Okay. Quickly before we go, is there any information on the release of funds for revitalization? I remember that was one of the things that was part of the bono of contention with the last strike. Yes. Was there any release of the... That has not been it. Nothing has been done, nothing. The government is holding the university's term about $1.1 trillion since about 2012. You know, the administration of the government hasn't even paid a tranche. That's to show you how anti-poor and anti-education is the administration's release. Would you want other labor unions to join ASU in this agitation? Definitely. The ASU has been trying, but obviously, you know, the struggle to reposition education is the struggle of all. So our call also has to go to the NLC, to the TUC, you know, to back up ASU. And one of the things that I think the labor movement can do, is they want to call a summit, you know, or a conference, bring together unions in the individual sector, as well as the student movement. So these course ways of, you know, organizing in order to ensure that all of the pending issues and demands in the sector, that there's a collective effort to fight, to ensure that government, you know, meets all of these demands. Because we are talking about the federal government now, but by the time you go into the state levels where you have state universities and co, it's, it even have more crisis, you know, you have in Lagos State, for instance, you know, at Lagos State University about five, I mean, staff who are leaders of ASU, have been served for the past four years or thereabouts. And when you go to other states like that, it's the same situation of attacks on workers, or even incremental fees. You have the example of the Cardinal State University where fees were increased by government. So all of these needs to be brought together. And that's what a summit can do. So I think the labor movement can naturally repose in doing that if they can provide leadership, you know, for this struggle. That would really be a good way to ensure that the unions are fighting that they are assisted. Okay. Well, hopefully the federal government does act before there's another strike, because I don't think Nigerian students want to be stuck at home for another couple of months again. It's been too long and too painful. Thank you very much. Thank you. Asan Soweto for speaking with us this morning. Thanks for having me. All right. We'll go on a short break. When we come back, what is the understanding of restructuring and the agitation for restructuring? It's still part of conversations across Nigeria today. And we're going to be speaking this morning with Victor Aukhai to have a clearer picture of where we are and what exactly is the restructure in that Nigerians are clamoring for. We'll be right back.