 and welcome to Cooper Union. What's happening with human rights around the world on Think Tech Live broadcasting from our downtown studio in Honolulu, Hawaii and Juana, New York, Kaya. I'm your host, Joshua Cooper. The title of today's episode is United Ukraine. We can win the world we want. Beauty and bravery beat barbarity. Joining me today is Tara from the U.S. AID Human Rights and Action Program, Ukrainian Helsinki Human Rights Union. Tara, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having me. We really appreciate you spending time, especially in this most tumultuous circumstances. Could you tell us where you were on February 24th? Yeah, I could share my story because on the 21st of February, I suddenly woke up in the middle of the night. It was around 5 a.m. because the blasts could be heard outside. And at first I thought that it was not something real, but still I tried to look up Facebook news outlets and just to call my friends. And it was apparently a start of an overt full-fledged war led by the Russian Federation. And to some extent, it was not a surprise, of course, because the war was going on starting from the 2014, but it was a bit different war, non-conventional war, where Russian Federation took over the Crimea, which is part of the Ukrainian territory. And afterwards it waged war against Ukraine via its proxies and denied its presence on the ground, thus taking into account all the circumstances it was not a surprise, but still it meant that you had to make very fast decisions because I had to take care of my family, of course, my wife and two kids. And that's why we had only like two hours at our disposal in order to bring all the things together and to take our kids. And we instantly drove to Lviv. This is the western part of Ukraine. It's around 500 kilometers from Kiev, from capital, where I worked for the last three years for the Ukrainian Health and Human Rights Union. And it took us around 23 hours drive, which is usually around seven to eight hours. This is due to many queues on the roads and of course the checkpoints, which were installed on the ground, but still it was something for us when we came home and we felt a bit secure, but I was very disappointed when a lot of people could not drive their way from Kiev and were stuck the days which came after it. And of course the overall situation around Ukraine deteriorated drastically. And no one feels secure in the western part of Ukraine, where we currently are located since on the 24th of February, Russian Federation launched rockets on our military infrastructure. Of course they were not in all cases precise rockets and they had a very collateral damage inflicted on civilians as well. But now as we all see, we have gone too far from this so-called military operation, which is officially named by the Russian Federation. Of course we see many ex-barbarous acts on the side of Russian Federation regrettably, but on the other side, we cannot have no more illusions what is a real Russian Federation because it is Bellicose country. It's revengeous country and it lives with history because everything it can offer to its neighbors or to its own population is history. And in these terms, there is no future in Russia because the future is the past and the past in the future. No, it's a great point. And thank you for sharing your harrowing story to make sure that your family is safe. And it's not only that, definitely freedom for the entire world is at stake and also the existence of the state of Ukraine and self-determination for all countries. I think the concept of interbeing, of understanding that nothing exists separately from anything else and we're all interconnected is what is really striving as we're supporting and there's more and more solidarity for Ukraine right now. We know you desire to be a rights-respecting democracy and not a satellite state as you pointed out. And it's really important, of course, as we all know, that truth is not a luxury, it's a right. So thank you for sharing with us today what has been going on. Can you share a little bit about what the Ukrainian, what your NGO does and how that's important even in today's time, even more so probably? Yeah, I joined the Ukraine and Health and Human Rights Union about three years ago before I had a pure academic profile. I was doing a lot of research in the field of international law. But after the Orange Revolution, especially after 2014, I was firmly determined to do something more for the Ukrainian people, something which could not be done with the students, although it is also a very important topic to tackle. And that's why I made a decision to change drastically my professional affiliation and I was very lucky to be a part of the team of the Ukrainian Health and Human Rights Union, which is presumed to be one of the biggest NGOs. It's like an umbrella NGO and comprises a number of smaller NGOs. And as previously mentioned, it is the implementing partner of the USCD project, which was launched in 2014. Basically, it addresses issues of human rights violations in terms of the ongoing armed conflict in Ukraine, in Eastern part and also in Crimea. So in a sense, I just switched my academic background to more practically oriented things. And to this end, we produced a lot of analytical reports in order to disseminate all the human rights abuses which are taking place within the armed conflict in Ukraine. We do advocacy events. We also push for harder sanctions to be imposed on Russian Federation. We also litigate cases domestically and even internationally in order to have some impact. And last but not the least, we try to be as much as resilient within the country as much as we can. No, that sounds so important, especially when we look at what's going on, there's been more than 2 million Ukrainian civilians fleeing the country, half of those at least 1 million children. And of course, the World Health Organization verified attacks on health centers in Ukraine since the start of the invasion and have also been documenting. And as you talked about your international advocacy, I think that's really important because you see that people really recognizing the national flag that's been there since 1848, evoking that field of wheat beneath a clear blue sky of freedom, people are really standing up and that's what's been so important. One of your examples that inspired me got me to think about the Human Rights Council. And on March 1st, when the Russian foreign minister was about to deliver his message to the Human Rights Council, an entire contingent of more than 100 diplomats walked out of the Human Rights Council for the first time to say, it would not listen to SESA message because it's exactly as you were saying, it is definitely an act of war. It is definitely causing horrible pain and killing. And what's really important is that it's been a pivotal moment though, for the world and for the council, that they're not ignoring reality and they're looking at their obligation seriously under the UN Charter, under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and standing up saying no more. The other part that was quite exciting was how more than 2,778 new sanctions have been designated and slapped on since February 22nd and now there's more than 5,530. And the other side also is just everyday people. In a 48 hour period, 1.9 million in Airbnb booking fees were paid but guests aren't checking into the hotel Kiev because as you described it, everyone had to flee due to really the crimes of aggression that Russia's been contemplating. Could you maybe share how people are holding up more? I know that really the bravery and the beauty of people standing together in solidarity has inspired people to do more than they have done at the UN. It's in fact, what's happening inside Ukraine is really creating a ripple effect of rights around the world for countries to do more and for international institutions as well as really OSCE, the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe is really where the Helsinki name comes from with that basket of human rights. Could you maybe share how everything is still going when we 12 days into the conflict? Yeah, if I may, I will just take a step back in order to emphasize one important point in my view. So the stakes are not just about Ukraine. The stakes are about the legacy which was crafted after the World War II namely the rule-based order. And this is what is important. You cannot just redraw borders with the use of force. You cannot just change history as it was before the World War II. And this is totally unacceptable, such a line of thinking. And that's why Ukraine aligns itself with a lot of universal international organizations which support international legal norms. And that's why we have unprecedented support which was mentioned by you at different levels, not just the UN, but also we may look into some other fora. For example, International Criminal Court has agreed to open the investigation into the war crimes and crimes against humanity which occurred on the territory of Ukraine. So before it was just a preliminary examination but this is not the case now because a lot of countries around 40 countries they turned to the International Criminal Court in order to speed up the investigation. And so we have some early implications that there will be more progress. And even the delegation of the International Criminal Court is on the ground investigating all these atrocities committed by the Russian Federation. And I would just like to emphasize again that this is not a war which is waged in line with the international humanitarian law whereas the distinction between the military objectives and civilian populations. So what we are witnessing is a blatant violations of international humanitarian law whereby Russian military, they are intentionally targeting civilian infrastructure. They are shelling ambulances, hospitals, schools. It has no justification at all. And what is more striking that the military operation, according to the words and statements of Mr. Putin, he said that the genocide is occurring on the territory of Ukraine. And this is a pure gaslighting on the side of Russian Federation. And this is always how it looks like because the only truth which is pursued by Russian Federation is very one-sided. But it is at odds with the facts on the ground. Everything can be verified by parties and reports of numerous international organizations. And Ukraine generally is a diverse country and a multinational country. And actually Putin has not learned lessons after 2014 at all. He miscalculated about Ukrainian society that you cannot impose any political will on Ukrainian nation. And this is mostly important. And now we see how people are united. Actually, this is the continuation of the Maidan Revolution of 2014 because a lot of people had horizontal connections. They volunteered a lot. They donated as much as they can. So this is a horizontal society with critical thinking. And I would say some value-based and everything which was deemed by Russian Federation as a problem here. For example, culture, language, religion, it was disregarded by these people. And what is more, love but not the least, that it is Putin who did his best to unite all the Ukrainian people against him. And even Russian-speaking Ukrainians who reside in this country, they take up their arms in order to defend their motherland and to defend their freedom of Ukraine, self-determination of Ukraine and so on and so forth. And this is basically how it is working now. And I am admiring not only Ukrainian people. I also value a lot as many Ukrainians, the support which is coming around the globe to Ukraine and especially from the United States and their allies in Europe and taking into account the latest statement from Mr. Biden, who imposed a ban on oil, gas and any energy supplies to the United States. And actually the United Kingdom will follow the suit and some other countries will allegedly do the same afterwards. So we see that the political, diplomatic and legal dimension are tightening the grip and Russian Federation is in the full isolation. It becomes a sort of barrier. And this is what should be done, of course. And I think that the support, it is the strongest we could ever expect it. And even Mr. Putin thought that he would get much, not such a robust response from the West and from the US, but still we need drastically, as you all might know as a non-fly zone over Ukraine. This is a very complicated issue. I accept, but still we need more pressure. And even according to the polls throughout the United States they show that people and citizens of the United States vastly support a non-fly zone. And actually we have a number of examples in history when non-fly zone was introduced. So we would very welcome the next step for some more stronger armor supplies to Ukraine. I mean some jets, which is also a question on agenda currently now. And everything the rest will be done by our brave army. That's for sure. And we are, as I mentioned, are not only protecting our country, but also the legacy of the World War II. No, thank you. It really did bring up that spirit of San Francisco, the UN Charter and Putin's actions were a flagrant breach of the most fundamental rules of interstate relations and that UN Charter to respect the sovereignty and territorial integrity of its member states. That's probably why, as you pointed out, even after Russia blocked a vote in the Security Council with its veto, 141 countries voted on March 2nd to support Ukrainian sovereign rights, denouncing clear violation of the UN Charter international law with only four countries voting with Russia and the other 35 abstaining. What really is important now though is also to see what was being done as you brought up the International Criminal Court. It is true that 39 countries referred the matter. And if you do look at what was going on, Russia's military invasion meets the definition of quote an act of aggression as defined by the ICCC. And now we note that President Putin could be personally prosecuted for the crimes. I believe Article 8, 1, this Article 8, this one defines a crime of aggression as the planning, preparation, initiation, or execution by a person in position effectively to exercise control over to direct the political or military action of a state of an act of aggression which by its character, gravity and scale constitutes a manifest violation of the Charter of the UN. That means Putin can be personally responsible. And what I think is another point that's so important to build on what you said, since the crime of aggression has no statutory limits along with the three other international crimes of genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity, Putin will be legally accountable for his actions against Ukraine as long as he lives. So these are some of the points building of which you raised the political, the legal and also the moral aspects of his actions has really united people to stand up for what Zelensky is talking about. We are all Ukraine because no one would ever want their country to be invaded and that if we lose this rule of law then of course we lose everything that was gained by people coming together to say never again. And there's more that we must do. I would just like to intervene shortly. There are some complications with regard to persecution of Mr. Putin with regard to the crime of aggression and the expert community is well aware of that but this does not regard the war crimes and crimes against humanity. And this is what actually is taking place currently. And that's why alternatively there is a suggestion and ongoing discussions that a special tribunal should be established in order to prosecute personally Mr. Putin for the crime of aggression in Ukraine. So this is what we are anticipating and this is already being discussed very seriously within the expert community and supposedly will be pushed forward. It's very important and it echoes really what people are trying to say. I believe Maldives had one of the best explanations on their vote. They said as a small state they've always taken a principled stand on violations of territorial integrity of a sovereign country. And they said the position is based on a bedrock belief in the equality of all states and unconditional respect for the principles of the UN Charter. And of course what's really important is if we're trying to move towards peace for everyone they say we know we do not possess powerful weapons of destruction instead we rely on our principles and the solidarity of nations. That's really what Maldives is saying but that's also what Ukraine is saying that we wanna move away from war and we wanna make sure that the international system works so that people do not have to resort to the situation that Ukraine finds itself with an aggressive neighbor. Sure, we do not need another high cost to pay in order to invent something else. I think that the international system exists in one has not exhausted its resources as such. And afterwards I think we have to reconsider the world we are living in because current situation is not just the matter of this year because all the previous military campaigns and adventurism of Mr. Putin personally elsewhere was like rewarding him for his military adventures. Every concessions for example, his intervention and incursion in Georgia for example in 2008 also did not bring about any breakthrough in this respect. Their troops are on the ground still. They did not pull out their troops and there is one funny thing about Russian peacekeepers. I would like to voice it that Russian peacekeepers are keepers of Russian empire. They come but they never go. Very true and that's unfortunately is the pattern that we've seen in your homeland since 2014 and there wasn't as strong of a response then. What has also been interesting is what you alluded to earlier. Also the people inside Russia rising up. The people with peaceful protest. And I'll never forget the woman who's roughly probably 80 years old with a simple sign just for peace and being arrested. And that I think shows the weakness of Russia right now. And if you also look at its most recent laws, you and I appearing today probably violated those recent laws about the media because Russia enacted laws that criminalized independent war reporting and anti-war protests with families up to 15 years in prison. And that of course is the wrong direction of where we're at and what's going on. So those are of course important to show how people are standing up and what we can do going forward. I think this is a big drama for modern Russia because a lot of people who are residing in Russian Federation are not even aware to the fullest extent what is really going on in Ukraine because a lot of communications with our counterparts which are living in Russian Federation, they are refuted and they are just saying that this is all fakes that only nationalists in Ukraine are intentionally shelling all this civilian infrastructure and so on and so forth. And that's why Russian Federation has an obligation to denazify Ukraine. But this is ridiculous because any facts on the ground just support this point of views. There are no Nazis in Ukraine. This is something like from the history taken out by the Russian Federation which is easily accepted in Russia. And this is a big issue actually because Russian population is brainwashed, has been brainwashed actually within years and they cannot accept any other points of view and the diversity of use is actually suppressed severely as you mentioned. And of course with your leader being Jewish that of course even points out more absurd of how it is. What is really important and what I hope we talk about also and why we have to keep discussing this is we really see a person violating international law international criminal law also international human rights law. And if you look at the practice that has happened to so many cities in Ukraine where you surround a city then you cut up the electricity in the middle of winter and I remember the winters there can be quite chilly and then cutting off the water and then continuously shelling. This is just late next of violations of international law against civilian population. Yes, and I would just like to conclude your remarks. Yes, this is very appalling and disgusting by all means. And actually today, six year old girl she died because of the dehydration. She was blocked in the city of Mariupol which is located in the south of Ukraine and it's surrounded by the Russian troops. And Russian Federation actually depicts itself as salvation army who comes here in order to save Ukrainian people from our authorities. And it by all means denies it's even this statement because they are not raising Ukrainian cities as such not just shelling Ukrainian infrastructure. They are also demolishing churches which are Russian Orthodox churches. No, I have heard as well that a lot of statues and cultural artifacts are being wrapped and bubble wrapped and trying to be moved to be preserved because it's that rich heritage that people do not wanna lose even though the sad thing is the actions still keep coming and there is fear that it get even more dastardly in the upcoming dates. Of course we can expect more barbarous acts on the sides of Russian Federation because it has very huge losses on the ground and this looks like a retaliation to civilians on the side of Russian Federation because it cannot gain what it planned. It was presumed to be a Blitzkrieg according to the plans of the Russian Federation. They plan to invade Ukraine within three days but this is a total miscalculation of Mr Putin. No, and it's important as we get into the final moments even the hacking collective anonymous declared a cyber war on Vladimir Putin and his allies and they've using with their 7.6 million followers are also standing up. So we just want to thank you for standing up for human rights and international order that is rooted in the rule of law and we want you to still be safe and we look forward to continuing our conversation and thank you so much for your bravery that then inspires the world to do more as well and to also remind us what matters most. As long as we stay united, we stay stronger and we will win. Thank you so much Aloha. Thank you. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn and donate to us at thinktechhawaii.com. Mahalo.