 Steve and Everett. Eric, you're working. For anybody who's not here and been here before, we are an advisory committee to the Development Review Board. We will listen to the applications on the agenda and move them forward. And do I hear a motion to approve the agenda? So move. Second. Second. All in favor of the agenda. Raise your hand. The agenda is approved. Unless anybody has anything else to add, we'll go straight to the first application for 22 State Street. He also needs to do for the exploration of the piers and the work under the court. So that's all being looked at. The number that he gave us of $20,000 represents the worst case scenario, all the things for total replacement of all of these pieces. But it's our intention to restore to its original look. So that's a $20,000 represents the worst case scenario that far, but we're prepared to do so if we need to. As for the repainting, we've done a lot of research. We're old house aficionados, and this is actually our fourth house, old house that we've, antique house that we've restored. And we've done a lot of research into the period. And we know that Victorians typically would have at least three colors, that there'd be a pink body color, then a trim color, and then an accent color, which is what you see on the current color scheme. And that's basically what we want to replicate in sort of a different order, if you will. At the present, the body of the house is a kind of a creamy color. And the porch and the accents of the trim, I should say, is a teal color. And then the accent color is a kind of a rusty color. So we're just kind of wishing to mix it up a little bit. We would like to go, I have some of the chips that are... Okay, are these the same numbers? Okay, because I can pass these around. I brought these from the original application. Right, we haven't nailed down the exact shade, and actually I was told that those chips represent a very expensive line of paint. Something similar to this. Exactly. But what we want to do is just sort of mix up the order of those, if you will. So the body of the house would be teal, and it would be a darker, it would be a bluer, slightly darker teal, which is what you see there. Then the trim would be the creamier color. And the accent color would be a rusty sort of apricot color. Maybe a little bit. First photos show it to be kind of a color anyway. So something in that realm, and actually we most recently talked about navy painting the door, which needs repair. I would have loved to have left it. We would have loved to have left it just as a wooden without paint on it, but it has a lot of dings and cracks, and we'll also like to propose that maybe we paint the color potentially. So that's basically the gist of it. So the colors, if you have to replace or replace a composite or actually wood, I believe he was talking about wood. That is my understanding. And then the deck, the portion. Or are you replacing with like? With like, yes. So if you would as well. It would be wood. Yes, it would be. I'm not gapped, it would be as is shown. Yes. Usually it's tongue and groove fur, a really tight grain fur, which will last. He did talk about fur, yes. He said the one difference would probably be that in examining those four fortes saw that they were cross cut. I didn't even know what that means, but he said it wasn't possible to. Okay. Anyway. He said they were quarter sawed. Quarter sawed. I think that's right. Okay, thank you. And that probably wasn't going to be available, but it would most likely be fur, and in any case it would as closely replicate the existing. It's available if you want to pay for it. Maybe that's what he was getting at, but we didn't want to bump us in. He's trying to keep your, he's trying to keep your bid somewhere. Yeah, I guess. So how about the stair itself? Replacing down. I would replace, and we would walk and start to walk, but it would get pretty real. And it isn't, but it isn't a period at all. It's very fast. Did you do any paint scrapings by any chance to see if you could get down to an early color? Um, what is exposed to me? I would almost call it exfoliating paint. To this point it's been, it's, it's the word. There's almost nothing that you can see as the word it is. The paint is coming off. It's just, there's nothing that you can see. Sometimes they get up underneath the clavours or it's not the weather. You can just take a knife or something. It's pretty good. We haven't gotten that far with it. It's just, there is quite a bit exposed, but there's nothing. The other thing, I doubt very much if the shutters are original because they don't, they don't work. They don't work because they won't close over the window. They're too narrow to close. It's just, it's, they're just decorative. Somebody added them at a later date. And on the front of the house, it's only the upper two windows that have the shutters on them anyway, so. How about your side? I was up on a project today and the one's using, it's like a cement fiberglass column. It seemed to actually, I was quite impressed with it a lot, and the details, you can do it, it's very smooth. It seemed like a really, really smooth person. And it looked identical to a wooden one that would accept painting. And it wouldn't have a lot of capabilities. Would it be as durable essentially? I mean, more durable. But you might want to just put not a hundred dollars there. Yeah. And we're installing it. So is that something that we could, we'd open if the contractor comes back to us with that kind of option that we discussed? Something's going to happen. So UVM just got in trouble to do it. Oh. Yeah. And it does, if you were to. Yeah. They're hollow. Yeah, they're hollow. And if you were to wrap on it, it definitely is different than wood for sure. There's a totally different sensation. These would have been solid. I don't think these are solid. I think they're joined. Yeah, I think they're probably more like an inch thick and they're like glued together and then turned back in here. Okay. But these other columns are sort of made like a barrel. Like a barrel. Oh, I understand. These wooden ones. Yeah, the wooden ones are. Yeah. And then these composites are, they are, for example, kind of when they have like a hole where they can be filled and then you have the mates. Okay. But just that's okay. They would sound very different. My concern about the bass is that it looks to be like these closer sitting on, and maybe they're sitting on 12 by 12 or 10 by 10 and about two and a half, they think they're motionless. Some of them are spider. Yeah. And some of them are attaching. Yeah. I don't know. Those haven't been on or something like that. That's a replacement for, that's hard to tell what kind of a bass is. They might have had another big round, a bigger round hole. At the bass. At the bass. Well, whatever they've put on there now, I want to stress that these are some of the appropriate for the circumstance to bear in mind if they're not supported now. And we did talk about that. And if you end up just using a two inch lumber, you can chamfer the edges and do things like that, make it look a lot nicer. And it also helps the shed work. Okay. And I wouldn't know if, you know, a bigger disc would be available but that's what I would really expect to be the bass looking at those colors. The new old post there next to step two is pretty long, right? I'm proud of it as well. I don't know that the bass was long, and I don't think that the new post itself is. I would, I hope so, yeah. I mean, I would, if they told me that those posts wouldn't shape, I would point it out. They don't, they don't grow here like that. No, it could be restored with a new bass underneath. As Eric said, you can either find a round or a square bass with the edges chamfered so that, again, it sheds water better and gives it a little bit better chance of lasting a while. Doing some decorative painting on the dual post might be a nice painting. I doubt if it was all one color. Yeah. We've been told that the groove isn't, it's not separated from the house so the work is good enough to be on the bottom. I think eliminating the orange shutters, both of them from a color standpoint just because they're, somebody stuck those on there at the top. We haven't had a, I haven't had a look. Uh-huh. I think those are going too good. Yeah. It didn't look like there were any on the side. Yeah. So somebody just did it as a little, it's a little decor on the front. Yeah. Any comments, questions, suggestions? Do you want to designate anything on the, on this or I mean, you have a little bit of leeway is, you know, for the basis of the existing post or replacing the post. And again, as long as none of the appearance is changing, the, did you want to change the railings on the stairs? Yeah. I don't, I looked around the neighborhood and some have railings. Some just have a single piece of wood. We wanted something to be consistent with the house with the appearance of it. Frankly, we don't think you know what that is. We're going to be a wood railing with, uh, spindles. Spindles. Some people just take a, an iron bar, pole. Those, comes off the top. And just follows the stairs down. It's just a single part. I don't know, what do you think is more appropriate? Could be either. I, I, I think the wood railings would be more appropriate. If you, if you don't have any historic pictures of them. We do not. There are other houses on this street, which have, one directly across the street has a single metal bar. That's. Well, on the front of the building. Not necessarily from front. You can see different things. In houses that seem to be similar on the side of the railing. We could give them the option of replacing the metal stair railings with wood railings that are compatible to sign to the remainder of the porch detail. That's fine. The other thing. The other kind of quick suggestion is you, you saw some kind of a rot resistant wood. Or a column basis. You know, uh, cedar would probably work. It's fine. It's not, it doesn't require a lot of strength. No, it's because it's a post on top of a post. That's a likely spot to rot. You know, if you just use pine or something. So you're stripping the floor of the porch. We're going to go with natural, it's a natural element. Currently the porch is painted with a teal over. And I think it's kind of moving to the other side of that. The natural finishes on the exterior don't do it well. They're affected by the ultraviolet light. And if they get little pin holes in them, the water gets in and de-laminates them. So painting would be a better option. That's amazing. Hold on. Are you saying it's natural, like clear, or are you saying polyurethane or something like that? The polyurethane, I think, they don't last very long on the exterior. Just for that reason there's an ultraviolet effect. And they're such a strong film that if there's a pinhole in it, it just actually traps water away. Water will get in. I had a long go-rock with that on the porch. So painting would be a better option. Yeah. In traditional Vermont porch color, the floor is gray. Sort of medium gray. Is that right, Liz? That'll ship gray. Yeah. That's the color you think it has. Yeah, yeah. I wouldn't take that as a recommendation, but it's the most traditional way. We need to get some of the warming to sort of arrange. I think what color you paint your porch floor? What color do you have to paint? It's entirely empty. All right. It's good to know. I went around to paint this porch that I was talking about, and the whole wedding is there. And the mother of the bride called up every week wanting to know what color it should be because she didn't want it to clash with her shoes. That's my worst mother of the brides. The other thing you can do is, there are so many shades of gray now that you can take a gray, you can start with a gray, just a plain battleship type of a gray, but you can use your other colors and find a tenth of the gray that's compatible with your other colors that might soften it a little bit in case that battleship gray clashes. There's about a thousand shades of gray available in that. Very popular. We'll get broader, right? We ended up using a porch. It's a fairly large building. We ended up using stain on the floor because it doesn't then build up in peel because that needs to be painted. It just doesn't, it's the same paint, really. It just doesn't have a feller in it. Solid stain. I mean, they have to paint this porch every year, so it builds up. You won't have to paint here. A latex stain or a water stain? I think they use a latex stain. We'll go through the criteria. There's a set of criteria for the application, preservation, reconstruction of the appropriate historic style of the proposed projects in the historic district or involves an historic structure, acceptable, harmony of exterior design, acceptable, compatibility of proposed exterior materials, acceptable. Compatibility of proposed landscaping not applied for in this application. Prevention of the use of an compatible designs, fillings, color schemes or exterior materials, acceptable. Location and appearance of all utilities, no lighting proposed, no change in lighting proposed. Recognition of and respect for view quarters as significant vistas including gateway views of this city and state house, not at this location. All in favor of the application is proposed, raise your hand. And I'll get you to sign there above my name. Either one of you can sign. Thank you very much. And good luck with your project. Thank you. I'm sure. There are great stories there. The next application is for 108 State Street, Timberlake Associates. Come up and have a seat. And I'm assuming you're David. I'm David. Can you just point the microphone at yourself? And describe your new signage. So we're converting that gas station from a Shell station to a Sonoco station. Sonoco has got their standards like they're their own company and they always ask us to create one. They would like to see first. Are there going to be two Sonocos right next door to each other? I think they're close to the other one. I don't think the other one's selling a lot to the future is there for that location. So I mean, not much of everything, we had two Shell stations. So we've done quite a few of those Sonocos. We actually enjoy the performance. We love the programs. So they're asking for these ability price signs and plastic faces and inserts and that kind of stuff. And so we're basically just re-facing what's existing there from the existing Shell sign to the Sonoco sign and adding the LED price sign. So the square footage is identical. I'm not necessarily a big lover of LED price signs when they don't work when they're close. They run power 24-7. There's a lot of lights in there. In fact, they run more electricity than fluorescent light bulbs believe they're not. Most of them are not repairable. I've got experience with these guys. You know, we're dealing with major oil companies down in Texas. They're in bed with their Texas companies. Okay, so you overpay for everything so that every component of a conversion I pay and our Shell gets paid. And then they don't necessarily love themselves with the best LED companies that are out there. They may all be Chinese made, but they're not replaceable. I can't go in there and actually replace the digits. So I've had a lot of frustration. There's plenty of LED price sign companies where I can replace us, but those aren't the approved LEDs. Is there a recommendation you'd like us to make? No, I really would like you to approve it the way it is. You know, when it does burn out behind their back, I will put in their right LED sign. So, you know, they probably won't last five years because they're on all the time. You know, when they're open, you know, of course, when it's for us people or an LED too is passed after the day on the day like the Shell price sign, okay? Those aren't when they're open, because it's summer now, but the LED will have one. And I don't even know why fishes you remind me incentivize us though because they actually work more power than personal level. Marriage is a question. If I could walk away without the LED, without that, then I have to do it. Look at the signs in downtown. So, the way that the sign charts got drafted, there's some inconsistencies. So that myself, as a zoning administrator, if there are inconsistencies, I have to make some sense out of it. It makes some sense out of it and usually in favor of the applicant if it is unclear what the Planning Commission wanted to do. So, you know, we've been allowing these electronic pricing signs in all of the zoning districts. If the Planning Commission has a problem with that, they've got a chance to change it coming up. They're not the Planning Commission City Council, they've just been... I don't really like the lit signs in downtown being on 24 hours a day. Well, not 24 hours. Like when you're open, when you're open. But I'm not. They're easy to change, you know, so the manager can just sit there and change it from the store as opposed to climbing up ladders and changing numbers. That part I like, you know, but when they start to burn out, you know, they don't look so good. How about the poles? Yeah, it's painted in one shade of gray versus the other shade of gray. I wish they would just stick to, you know, standard Rust-Oleum gray, not, you know, invent their own shade or they'd like to have that happen. It can't be the same, right? Shell can't be the same, but it's an outdoor mowboard. Does the lit... does it go to cover the other grades of gasoline as the other one does? It's just a regular price. They're only allowed... Probably nobody cares about it anyway. It's about 90% of the business. Are those colors the corporate colors? Yes. Yeah, there's not a whole lot. Unfortunately, there's not a whole lot for you guys to look at, but we still have to run it by you. I'm going to vote against the Luke sign. I don't... They're really appropriate in downtown, and I think whether it's... I don't think we let anybody put a hanging sign over a storm. You know... The upper sign is externally illuminated. Yeah, that's all right. It's just the right sign. It's a bit of a gas station exception to allow the LED pricing sign, even though they're quote-unquote internally lit. Okay. Yeah, you can vote again. You guys can vote against it. Yeah. Is it just because of the downtown? Yeah, the big location in the downtown. You're the only gas station outside of Perry's on State Street. What do they have? Do they have the LED? The signal of the street? It's just unfortunate. It's right in the heart of the historic downtown. It sort of defeats the... what everybody else tries to do in town as far as... Well, that's lighting rather than war. This doesn't flash. If you deny it, we'll just go back to downtown and say that they've denied it, and we have to propose that it's very consistent with what's there now. They're probably saying, you're out of electricity. Okay. But I'm not saying... My reasons are not the same as yours, but I just don't think... And then, you know, again, if they work your downtown, this comes in, and then what will we do? We've got an LED. We don't have any LEDs down there. Well, the LED really takes good care of its traditional... I'm just just going to... Anybody else have LEDs down there? The restaurants or... I don't think so. Not like this. I don't think there's... What businesses can do is the inside the window, they can put whatever sign they want. And there's some that have LED open and closed signs, but not on the exterior. Not on the exterior. Not sort of, you know, it's in the restaurant window. It's not hanging out in the street. Guess what I'm saying? There's nothing that says they can. Well, there's... There's nothing in the regulations that clearly says they can't do this, but you're also looking at your evaluation criteria. So if you're feeling that it is... Preservation reconstruction of the appropriate historic style. Yeah, compatibility with subject property and adjacent properties. Properties. So there's a lot of... There's some options here. ...unacceptable options. Even if it's just you guys going on... You know, even if the zoning administrator still can't deny that permit, we can throw the recommendation in, too. It's the other thing. I have to pay for those, too. Yeah. Because it's a snuggle, I saw it with an open sign. But does the other snuggle have one? There's no pricing on the other side. On River Street. Yeah. It's on the other side. It's on the other side. But it's in the district. I think there's a real difference between Memorial Drive... Yeah. ...and the state-streated dot com. Well, because one of your criteria is with the adjacent properties right in the area. So it's a bit of a toss-up. I mean, that's part of the... That's been a synoptical station. Problems that I had with telling people that when it wasn't clear in the... In my chart of where different signs are allowed when you start interpreting it and you're like, well, it's not really clear that it's only allowed in this one area for new ones and you've got all these others that are already here. Well, there's none other than no others on... Not on the street. There's none others on Snake Street, which is the heart of the... Right. ...history downtown. Yeah. So historic versus also the design of the district. A lot of things. So this goes out in the city but not that free. Yeah. And all of the statements. So hard to decide without setting precedence as well. So I'll go through the criteria. Word, it's a decent beginning. We recommend to develop it before. Or to us. And again. And this one, it'll go to us because I don't need administrator. So this is a recommendation. We're advisory. So this is the final decision but it's advisory to the next step. So 1A, preservation of reconstruction of the appropriate historic style if the proposed project's in the historic district or involves an historic structure. It's in the district. So we'll say it's unacceptable in the district. And then maybe to explain that it's just the LED price part. Sorry, but it's not an historic sign anyway. It's almost not applicable. I don't care. Not even keeping. Yeah. I'll actually use your own words. Well, and what I'll do is I'll take the recommendation back and go to Mike and hash it out and see what we actually, how we actually deal with it. I mean, we can make what recommendations we want to. They can be overturned. It works if he agrees with it then it just goes through you. Harmony of exterior is designed with other properties in the district. Also unacceptable. Compatibility proposed exterior materials. LED again, unacceptable. Compatibility proposed landscaping being proposed in this application. Prevention of the use of incompatible designs, buildings, color schemes or exterior materials. Also an acceptable location of appearance of all utilities. And again, LED lighting unacceptable. Recognition of and respect for view quarters and significant vistas including gateway views of the city and state house. Is the other side of the sign as well? Both sides. I think it does get away. Compatibility. Conformance with cityscape placement and design recommendations. Compatibility. Also unacceptable. Compatibility with subject property and adjacent properties unacceptable. Shall not obscure significant architectural details. It's not a problem there. Consistency and uniformity of multiple signs in CB2 and OP districts. Not applicable. Illumination. Internally lead plastic signs prohibited. And it's in banners. Not applicable. Individual letters are fixed painted or engraved directly on the building. Structure encouraged. So unacceptable. All in a hotel. $99 a night. It gets really into a lot of things. This is sort of a gas station specific allowance. But it's problematic when you start getting into the downtown. So all in favor of the applications proposed. All opposed. All opposed. All right. So it gives you something to work with. You just prefer the old style. So it's opposed to the application but they don't have to come back if they switch to the old style pricing. Right? You want to come back? No. I would think that's an administrative thing. If you just change the whole code. Okay. Now that we know what you're against. Shell was trying to do that to me too until I flew into Miami. And then I saw this giant shell station right there. It's all just insert numbers. So I came back to them and said I'm putting the old style. You can do that in Miami. So they are just backed up. They use a lot less electricity. It costs a lot less money. So you're going to need to sign that and then give it back to me. Thank you very much. Thank you. You're the first person we've seen smile when we're reacting to this. This one's going to take a little time because I'm out of the office tomorrow and the planning director's out of the office tomorrow and he and I are going to have to confirm this one to figure out how we're dealing with it. Probably no hurry. Okay. Yes. Okay. Thanks. We'll go to the next application on the main street or at Bigelstone SB Signs Inc. and introduce yourself. I'm Courtney Coutain from SB Signs. Spell your last name. D-O-U-T-I-M. Can we do this? Can we do that? Yeah. Not before I was here. Not that long ago. Right. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Okay. It's been a lot of thought writing. That happened a couple of years ago. Yeah. Again, this is corporate changes of logos. There's not a whole lot because we can't regulate content. Yep. They've kept most of the are we just changing right a to just a W, right? On the one column. Side elevation. Everything's going smaller except for the W on the side of the thing. But still I think it's just because of the logo. It's the one that I have the most in this one. So that will be content. That's the only thing we're changing on that is actually where it sits right. Right. So we'll paint the side band on that. Yeah. You know, we'll do a next. So there's a couple of colors to start with. I mean I guess one thing I worry about is using it as an opportunity to like plaster Walgreens in a way that will protect all of it. It's going to be exactly how it's shown. So we're basically we're going to have to repeat that side band because we want to make sure they are and then the Walgreens will be more red. I believe it's it's not good yet. It's not going to be a good color. It's not going to be a good color. It's not going to be a good color. It's not going to be a good color. It's not going to be a good color. It's not going to be a a shiny bright You can pretend you want it to I think that's what you're saying. The color can be tinted so that it replicates the faded. It's not going to like pop out bright neon on it. You have to use a sterile paint. Yeah. So Yeah. Yeah. So Yeah. Yeah. How early do you light? Yeah. It feels pretty strongly about this. Yeah. No, nothing's lit. No, no changes to lighting. Just keep the lighting that's there. Lighting already on the front. And those are just those are saying it is we're painting and patching the the side band will be moving and then just reinstall them so just the Any comments, questions, suggestions? Actually I think they did a nice job in sizing and the colors. And the logo is actually the script. No, it is. The script is better and it doesn't have a Yes, not a logo. Yeah. So we'll go down through the criteria preservation of reconstruction the appropriate historic style for projects in the historic district involves an historic structure will say it's acceptable in the historic district harmony of exterior design with other properties in the district acceptable compatibility of proposed exterior materials acceptable compatibility of proposed landscaping not proposed in this application prevention of the use of incompatible designs buildings color schemes or exterior materials acceptable location and appearance of all utilities there's no change in any of the utilities so none in this application recognition of and respect for view quarters and significant vistas including gateway views of the city and state house acceptable conformance with cityscape placement and design recommendations acceptable compatibility with subject property and adjacent properties acceptable shall not obscure significant architectural details acceptable consistency and uniformity of multiple signs in CB2 and OP districts not applicable the illumination internally lit it's not acceptable but this one is there's actually the illumination is existing acceptable and I'll just rate existing pennants and banners not applicable individual letters are fixed painted or engraved directly on the building or structure or encouraged acceptable all in favor of the application proposed raise your hand the wall greens by outriding just above my name I need your signature okay good thank you and minutes anybody have any questions or suggestions for the May 29th minutes motion to approve what's in there Steve, Liz and Seth so we've got enough make a motion to approve just did okay second all in favor raise your hand all of the states approve good minutes and on June the 3rd my recollection June the 3rd I'm sort of going back to the OCOMP 101 Northfield Street and that says that the last paragraph I the existing sign base either left in place after the sign is moved or totally removed once it's relocated and recollection works down here right so where it is sign base in the thing yeah my recollection was recommended removal complete removal okay but you didn't give him the option of either I have to go back I'll go back to the recording and check it and look at the form that we filled out well the other problem is well the other thing to note is that they never actually gave us a sign application and they may not actually do anything with the sign because if they move it chances are they have to shrink it they haven't given me the size dimensions but the current size if it's bigger than currently allowed under the regs it's grandfathered unless they move it they move it they basically have to do a whole new sign to shrink it down so probably chances are you're just going to keep looking at it the way it is because I talked to them they said if they have to shrink it to move it they're not going to move it and this is the discussion I had with the contractor at the beginning and he originally had dropped the sign they're not going to want to do that but it got left that little notation got left in the application that's why we never got a sign application so you can always go the other way around sorry I have a feeling that it's bigger than allowed because the max size I think is 12 square feet and I think that's bigger than 12 square feet on one side so chances are you're going to keep looking at it the way so the sign base is going to stay anyway unless they do another sign they'll have to come back with an application for the sign anyway as as long as the only thing you would be reviewing would be this size and content would be us as long as they weren't adding some other funky lighting something we would take this and approve it so I'll get this fixed to make sure it fits and more just to regard as my own my recollection was so I'll go back to the record I could be calling would you want to do that and then let us know and then we'll approve it based on what I'll tweak it and we'll bring these back okay good anything else next Monday to approve the minutes we're not going to we're going to bring these back next Monday is the meeting with the final commission yes next Monday at what time 5 30 originally I hit 6 and I got the time it's here so you have the pleasure of having another meeting just to go over the regulations the new regulations and the final commission you guys all have those breaks I'll recirculate again that would be good and it's just an exciting read I've read him so many times I can't read him again it's good for an insomniac the planning commission wants to make sure it gets everybody's input since you guys are going to be implementing them and also see what may need how much work they're going to have to do to get it going forward and I think one of the big questions is going to be can they adopt the new design review regulations without also adjusting district boundaries that's going to be part of the discussion so it's something to just think about we purposely did not do the boundaries but we got to have the regulations first and then and then the planning commission should really be setting the boundaries probably in conjunction with the historic preservation commission and design review that's probably the most touchy issue that way people who when you start talking about adjusting boundaries people know what they're getting into what they're signing up for that's the status of the garage what do you think everything still everything's still in appeal I mean the Act 250 the Act 250 decision got issued and then they appealed it the design review board decisions are still in appeal there's summary judgment motions happening I think there's the city filed two summary judgment motions I don't think the deadline for the responses to those yet so it's courts and we'll see what happens it's it is what it is once it hits litigation so the hotel is it in stasis? the hotel can't be built without the garage because there's no parking for a good hotel I am not privy to any of those kinds of discussions which is probably a good thing comment word on the street there's all sorts of word on the street I'm not going to what you hear is the same thing I'm sure they have enough investment I was talking they have enough investment well it's also if you look at the substance of what's being appealed my thought is that there's not a whole lot there where a court couldn't find a solution and get the permit issued with a few tweaks here and there that's what I think I try to keep up on it's mainly the process that the city followed in issuing the bond and the information that was presented in various applications I don't think that's a killer either though I don't know enough that's lawyers business that's my understanding but again I'm not I haven't even practiced law with this so we'll see it continues do I hear a motion to adjourn second all in favor of adjourn meeting is adjourned