 Hi everybody and welcome back to our podcast from the Kamasutra to 2020 where we look at your questions, your concerns, even your worries around all things to do with sex and sexuality. As always we have with us Dr. Anvita Madan Behel. Anvita is a psychosexual therapist and she brings the psychological perspective to the advice that the Kamasutra has to give. But along with her today we also have a very special guest we have Sharif Rangmekhar with us. Sharif is the director for the very first queer and inclusive Litfest in India, the rainbow literature festival. Sharif is an author, he's a communications expert, he is an expert on workplace culture and he's an advocate for the LGBTQ community. Welcome Sharif, welcome Anvita. Thank you Seema and welcome to our podcast this week. Thank you, thank you for having me, it's great to be here. Sharif, today we have a question that came in to us last week and it actually brought a tear to our eyes, I mean it actually made me cry a little bit and I felt that we really really needed you on this panel to deal with this. So the question was from a young gay man who said that not only is he looking for help and support in trying to come out and in basically trying to live his new life as a gay person but the fact that he is trying to deal with fear and self-hatred based around this new identity of his every single day and we realized Anvita does a lot of work on homosexuality. I am a huge advocate for basically all sorts of sexual orientations but I have to say that this kind of put a whole new light on something because even though we are there trying to be as supportive as possible, you realize that this is a journey that has far deeper layers and needs a whole different type of support and I know that it's something that you touched upon in your book which is called From Street to Normal where you talk about facing self-hatred, facing the fear, facing your depression about being gay. Yes Ima, sometimes you feel so much has changed you know from the time I came out which is 1999 but I was 30 years old when I came out. Yeah you feel that a lot may have changed you know given that that was over 20 years ago and then you hear these kind of stories you hear it from various people you know the people who want to end their lives. You know there isn't a specific answer to this or but I feel that today people are better off in terms of accessing information, accessing support groups etc but I will just come to a point what does someone really go through in a situation like this. Everything around you is heterosexual or heteronormative When you look around and you see TV and you see romantic films you know so to say it's always a heterosexual couple. When you look up your parents they're obviously a heterosexual couple. When you look at the press and they tell you you know stories of love it's again that. So you go to school people talk about you know boys talk about the girls they like the girls talk about the boys who are looking at them or who they like. So there isn't a space for you I mean you just don't seem to fit in anywhere and that leads to just so much of self-doubt you know at one hand you want to accept that you're different on the other hand you feel that that difference is completely out of place it has absolutely no dignity whatsoever in society because no one talks about it there is if the people talk about it by and large you hear jokes where you're the part of the joke when you've seen caricatialization in cinema you seem again to be some kind of thing or person to mock at to laugh at there isn't any status there isn't any dignity you know there's no self-respect in a situation like that it is it's only a few who can completely shut that whole world out and be themselves and even if they can I know it during the pandemic as well during the lockdown that many people who went through this kind of self-doubt hate towards themselves isolated in rooms because they have just come out to their parents and the parents hadn't accepted them there were others who who who were just getting into that journey of accepting themselves but they have no space to go to no place to go to etc so there were few I think who've tried to kind of meditate in a way to to look at themselves you know and you know perhaps as as one mental health expert was telling me because we were on a panel discussing this on TV in May what they call a certain kind of mindfulness towards yourself you know accepting starting to look at what you like what colors you like what kind of person that you desire for what do you want to want to wear you know and use their little private space if you have you know whether it's in the toilet whether it's in your bedroom to try and explore those things so that you can start you know creating your own little world out there but obviously that's not a permanent solution that is just no way because you can't live in the toilet in the room so all I can tell people and anyone is that start reading more start reaching out on Instagram for example there are a diamond dozen really really good mental health support groups to reach out to if not anything else you'll get someone you'll connect with someone who's so much like you to just tell you that things are fine the way they are you know and and there isn't anything wrong and I don't know whether it's easy Seema for anyone to get rid of that hate and doubt that you carry you know completely and maybe I'm taking a little long but I was I was telling you that when it was after I came up with this book and I was 50 plus that actually someone who knew me when I had first got into a gay group meeting Salim Kedway he said that this book this story and the stage of where I am was a coming of age which meant I spent over 20 years to come to terms with my sexuality to the to the point where nothing else mattered or what the young today called self-love you know that it took me those many years to actually love myself for who I am so I think that's what happens to a lot of people and and I just I just pray and hope that there are less and less such cases in this world you know of people having to feel success really I know what's it like and with I know that you had something very similar that you were talking about last time weren't you you were saying about how we don't have any examples of gay couples being together so where do you go to yeah but you know hearing should talk about a lot of the personal experiences I really want people to hear how it is a lifelong journey like research now speaks about this idea called internalized homophobia and that's what Sharif is talking about in some ways which is basically that we grow up in the same society so what we are watching you know all Bollywood movies the gay person is the comic relief in some ways you know that is the person that is ridiculous to see yourself in those shoes is a scary thing to actually undo all those stereotypes or those jokes and everything actually takes a really long time you know because we grow up in the same society we have the same stereotypes we believe in the same things we believe in all these heteronormative things we've grown up you know speaking about marriage and heterosexual couples and seeing our parents and all of that so it is actually quite normal to have that you know when you start thinking oh I might be attracted to the same sex person you suddenly have to undo all those stereotypes so it is quite normal to have that self-hatred in in the beginning because it's scary it's confusing it's it's so hard and a lot of times we have seen that people actually become very overtly homophobic because they're so scared that they'll be found out that somebody will find out that inside they're actually considering that idea and somewhere they feel like they're just transparent and people can look through their inner world and it and so it just speaks to what Sharif was saying about how it's not easy as one day oh I just feel gay and I'm out it is such a complex and difficult journey and it's a journey where there's no support there's no sex education there is no or I would just go to speak to a friend about it because coming and speaking to a friend is a coming out process which is also difficult right so it is just one of the hardest things to do and I assure you said one of the best way to get is find support find support from people who've gone through the journey before and find support groups it could be online it could be in person your wherever you're living there will be a group available or if not there are groups available online that you should seek so I just want to I want to say one thing sorry yeah on the point that Amita was just making this whole thing of internalized homophobia it comes to a point that I mean it didn't I mean there was a point that I wanted to you know end my life but that time I had no clue as to why but I know enough that more people who don't want to be gay in you know and I don't know whether you call it internalized homophobia it was just the whole fact that you feel left out you've seen the hatred when sexuality is discussed to the table at certain homes where people are so-called educated and supposedly aware where they were also discussing 377 and when it was read down in 2009 and then again in 2018 and you know they they said that you know I want to be loved so I don't want to be gay I I want I want to be like my brother like my sister like my cousin who are heterosexual you have people the fear is so high that you actually don't want to be yourself anymore because you you you don't want to face that violence you don't want to be hated you don't you don't want your parents to differentiate and you know kind of not love you you know that that's what people go through and it is that leads to the fear that leads to the fear of coming out that leads to the fear of recognizing who you are you know in your fullest form it and it's something that Anvita also said the other day which made a lot of sense that not only is this such a deep fear and the thing is that you know we are over here trying to say okay we support you through this really deep fear we're here by your side but it's not just that one off it's every day you face that fear like Anvita was saying every morning you get up and you face the same fear you may have met somebody today who says everything is going to be all right it's fine we're here the next morning you wake up and the same fear comes up and Sharif I know that you've been went through this journey this is something that you've faced personally how did you deal with this every single morning every day or continue to do it every day in some because it's a lifelong journey So you know Seema Anvita I think I am so lucky I mean in a way I used to regret at a point coming out quite late in my in terms of my age and I spoke to my godmother who is Chitra and she says well you know certain things happen in time look at it that 1999 is still better than 1989 as just as an example you know what the world was like then so in that sense I was lucky that I came out at the period where we at least had certain group meetings taking place I'm within my own residential complex a little bit last foundation was removed so I had a space to go to but it was after I came out and you know I'm lucky that I had a mom a mother who looked at each one of us each three brothers each of us are very very different people very different people and and so I would like to just quote her here she loves plants and she loves we have a whole terrace full of plants and she said that to her children are like plants some of them require shade at a certain point some of them need to be put out in the sun some of them need more water some need less water some need a different kind of soil different kind of nourishment etc etc etc but they choose how to bloom how to grow on their own what she as a godmother needs to do is ensure they were nurtured and they looked up so her approach to the three of us was that and in a way it was a certain amount of ignorance of sexuality and sexual orientation which was great because she just took me for who I am and didn't slot me into being a homosexual or being a heterosexual or being a boy or being a girl you know uh she didn't do any of those things so in a way home became extremely safe it is just that she asked me questions that I couldn't answer that point because she was curious to understand me better understand homosexuality better but then I came out to her I was hardly a month month and a half into gay group meetings I knew nothing for me it was just meeting other gay men was the first steps that was the excitement was about meeting other men you know it wasn't about trying to figure out uh the various nomenclatures attached to behavior to choices and all I didn't know all about I mean that's taken a long time to understand and know and nowadays there are any even new words you know pronouns and there's so much more out there uh but it was when I had to step out of home that there was always this conflict the moment I got into my car the moment I was on the street the moment I went to office even when I was the CEO for company there is this assumption that you hold in the power structure you're at the top you're secure you know in a way you are you know in many ways you are but I wasn't secure because I did face a campaign of someone who knew about my sexuality and he he sort of put me out there across the staff including the support staff the receptionist and the risk sending messages it wasn't WhatsApp so he couldn't send so many messages at the same time which was text messages but you know these these areas were always spaces where I was constantly holding back I was constantly trying to be the straight acting guy a corporate fellow you know the sahib because when you have a driver and you're paying in in cities like Delhi and you're paying him the salary or the boss your sahib so I had to be the sahib uh I could never uh I was it took me a while to explain to other people why I like to drive in the evening because that's the little time that if I was on a date or meeting someone I could actually completely be free in my car with the other person otherwise I'm constantly on guard go to a family function you're on guard so you're leaving leading two lives you know on a uh on a continuous basis you know and uh but you know like while Shakespeare says life is a stage you know they're all actors and whatever the exact line is but you can't be doing so many roles at the same time you know uh it's fine you know when people can shoot different shots at different points at the moment I walk out of my home when I walk into my home I'm constantly it's like day and night you know and uh and you know dust and dawn has its beauty that sounds it's very exhausting it took so much of a toll I didn't realize it Seema and I can't imagine oh sure it I can't imagine when I get calls from people that that they have to so many years later go through such things where you have to perpetually act I used to joke in an office when things became a little more open at work at the workplace uh that uh you know post 2009 because everyone was talking about 377 so we could discuss it at work uh that you know in public relations you're always you're there's a facade there is a politically correct behavior there is certain things you say to your client certain things you don't say to your client you're constantly performing in front of a client in front of the press in front of all these people I said that I I've become an actor because I'm doing it all the time but I'm doing the director's role with pressure from the world around me I'm doing the script I'm the script writer because I I need to know what I say and what I don't I decide what I wear and what I don't base is what everyone wants to see I'm doing the costume designing therefore I I do the makeup because then I uh you know I don't have to show everything to the world when I want to cry I cry in private because that's not what what people want to see because they want to understand so uh so it was it's it was really really exhausting and and you know it's I wouldn't wish that on anyone you know I wouldn't wish that on anyone that they have to constantly do this you know it's enough to be a son a brother a partner a cousin etc etc you know where it is too much to be so many different things so many different roles that you have to play which are not natural to the existence of a so-called loving family structure and society you know it it's just not worth it and I think you're really speaking to the lack of safety you know it is the lack of safety every day that one really needs to hear there that and the lack of choice that you cannot decide somebody else can just tell whoever they want to tell about an identity that you're really protecting how important it is but one fine day somebody can just spread it out to 50 people and that then you have to deal with the consequences of that you know when the receptionist finds out when she looks at you can you really have a conversation with her what that does to your life the turmoil and that lack of choice and powerlessness you know that's what we're speaking about how difficult it is in some ways because you don't have control over it and that process of not having control just living in that uncertainty can be so you know emotionally difficult for everyone yeah and Anvita I mean you know like there are many cases even today where I met this young professional who was attached to one of the consulting big consulting firms and he was placed with a public sector undertaking company where everything was masculine but he was engaging with the typical alpha male lot of people and he went through so much trauma and he was based in Chandigarh that he traveled down to an event in Bangalore organized by Right Circle for the LGBTQ job for something that we would never have heard of until the last year or two years and he met me my hair's turning up and he started howling he had never seen he had never been to a conference where there was sexuality and safety or as you just said safety was being discussed so that you could encletiate language say bring your whole self to the workplace but it's really being your whole self right I'm letting yourself just as my mom would say let it bloom you know whatever color it might be whichever way the leaves might be whichever color the leaves might be you know he howled and howled and howled and and he couldn't believe that there could be this kind of world as well just couldn't believe it you know he's fortunately he's moved to another place and he's very very happy you know but again he was lucky to have that information there isn't enough out far from enough out there for people to to you know know that they can turn to certain places certain organizations you know to just feel comfortable so I think what I would like to ask over here is that do you have any suggestions of groups that people can access so you talk about the LGBTQ job fair I didn't know about that I think that's amazing is that something that happens on an annual basis is it in every city is it in one place where can you find information on that so there is the as far as this one goes the first edition was actually in July 2019 in Bangalore they came to Delhi last year fed actually just a few days and two weeks before the lockdown they were really lucky and there were over 1000 people sought seeking jobs from the community over 1000 people pent up or yes you know demand as such you know but there this year it will be online on May I think third and fourth or fourth it's Pride Circle people can find for that out now there are many other groups for example if you're trans there's the Mitra Trust which is based in Delhi it's run by you've seen how you met Rudrani Rudrani Chetri who acted in the color the last color Rudrani runs that it's it's the Mitra Trust you can get a lot of help on on issues of transition mental health etc she also runs a modeling agency because as she says even trans people there's nothing unusual even trans people want to be models you know like everyone wants to wear clothes and and they know how to do the best makeup they actually know how to do the best makeup so yeah but actually it's something that she said when we met when she talked about this she said most trans people identify themselves as women and it's the one thing yeah so if they were to dress as men nobody would probably even be able to see the difference but because they like to dress as women um that's when they become visible in this particular identity and this is where they put down so she said that this is about empowering them to say you know we will have a fashion show we have a modeling agency where they get to dress the way that they want to and I just thought it was the most amazing thing that she said you know I absolutely love her for her work so uh what did you say that particular group is called again that's called the mitra trust the mitra trust the mitra trust yes okay and so we will actually put that in the description on the um on the video and obviously there is the hamsafar trust which is the oldest out of bombay they have an office in delhi but you can connect with them they have mental health experts etc also who are attached to the organization they team with a lot of issues on hiv as well and during the pandemic they were finding ways to deliver medicine uh the hiv medicine that is you know but you require to take uh two people's homes which were doing it in some of the cities which was quite amazing thing uh during the lockdown then uh so hamsafar is there then there's the hiv aids alliance which is then based in delhi and they they again do work across even mental health is one of the areas they look at there's a hf which uh supported a lot of people when it comes to safe sex stds and stis and again uh when it comes to that uh quite a few people have both identity issues and uh they also have issues and fears of carrying stis and stds so there are counselors attached on there it's a very well funded organization about then when you go i don't know exactly where uh which part of gujrat was uh is manvendra's govids uh who's the prince who had come out and opera went free it also featured him uh years ago it's called the lakshya trust you find it online online they do a lot of work like that there is uh tell me something um is there a group a support group for parents of gay children because i know that we're talking about a lot of young people who are coming out and they need the support but i think a lot of times we parents need help so it's called i think the swikar rainbow parents and uh they're wonderful good you asked over the button uh so they based out of bombay but they have a network now of parents coming on board from across the country but really location in today's world doesn't immediately it's not an immediate need i would say so there's aruna desai uh who's a co-founder does a lot of work there's chitra palakar again who's an actor and her daughter who's lesbian based in australia now so chitra and aruna quite often take the calls and they have helped parents they've helped children i know at least in recent times in the last four five months that if must have saved at least five or six kids and would have helped at least five or six parents as a result in in dealing with the truth for the parents to deal with the truth of their children of who they are uh so so they're a very good group to reach out to swikar rainbow parents then like that then there is your amazing litfest that you have the queer and inclusive litfest yeah it's a space for everyone i mean actually it's just it we just reverse at the litfest uh the dominance or the past structure that's reversed we're not heterophobic that's where there isn't a word like heterophobia as yet uh you know we're more accepting of heterosexuals we're more respectful and accepting of parents thank you which is why you allowed people like me to go no no not at all so we look at we look at intersections because it's it's almost like you know wasn't like that right child or cut someone they're going to bleed they're going to feel pain you have a heartbreak you can fall in love with someone you can fall out of life you can have domestic violence you can have great sex uh you have you have just so many things that are absolutely similar so we look at it from the queer and inclusive which is why so we often look at women in particular because there's so many common things that they go through in terms of just the patriarchal structure the family structure the power equations in a family it's not very different so that's where we are coming from so it's safe in that sense that you can get a lot of information you can understand many things because people use history they use picture they use my apology that you're anyway and that's what on uh so there's just so many things that are used visual media cinema to tell us stories that we don't see also you know short films that we don't see and those are very so I would tell a lot of people who want to feel comfortable follow the kashish film festival uh follow what the queer chronicles does out of Chennai because they also organize a film festival uh you know and they organize conversations uh as well it makes you feel more comfortable I think you just get to know many more lives you know um that itself is reassuring you know it can create a sense of self a sense of solidarity even without personally knowing the person you know so yeah I was just saying that for all the resources that sheriff is given when we think about going to a counselor especially about our sexual identity make sure that the counselor is somebody who is an ally to the LGBTQ community it is not true that every therapist psychologist out there yeah they would be part of the same society the same stereotype there's something known as conversion therapy where people are trying to convert people so a lot of times these organizations will have a list of people like in London we have something called the pink therapy where they have therapists who basically are somebody that you know they have been they have been looked at and seen that they are supporters of the LGBT community they will be allies so it is very important and it is very helpful to go to a therapist but please make sure that they are somewhere it could be on their website it could be through a friend it could be through those agencies that they are actually allies of the community because it's not true that every therapist is safe so make sure of that sorry because you know I think also a lot of youngsters who are online and not youngsters okay I'm young but even on Instagram you just have to do LGBTQ mental health you'll get a list of queer run mental health groups where they have queer affirmative mental health experts there are few heterosexual experts who also accepted as you know supportive or understanding and I mean they see the whole rainbow you know they don't see any problems with the rainbow also interestingly which something that can give us heart is not only what the judge during the 377 order Indu Malhotra had said that history opposed us an apology but just a few days ago last week in Chennai a lesbian couple was protected by the courts the the judge had said said that I'm getting over my preconceived notions and as assigned parents and the couple to go to a for queer affirmative say for them to understand now if I think let us be small little incidences and occasions are the ones which we can you know hold on to in terms of hope and I think that is why it's important for the more and more community to go into social media is largely safe there are lists there are organizations there are groups also which deal with other identities but they're queer like the queer muslim project then people from the northeastern region they have the chinky homo project they have yeah all they have such groups which are dealing with the multiple identities because a person coming from let's say Manipur or Nagaland or any of the seven sister states and they come to Delhi they also fees racism they also become a minority for where they come from but it's added to their sexual identity which becomes that much more heavy to deal with in terms of it same with the queer muslim same with all this so there's a lot out there and people should make full use of it that's that's the freedom that's I think that's really really good advice and with that did you want to give us a piece of advice just to um bring the session to an end I have no advice I think we've heard such amazing things um just you know a couple of things that I wanted to add was uh it is as difficult as you were saying for parents the coming out process is as much for the parents as it is for the person obviously more difficult for the parents but you know the parents also have to undo their preconceived notions of weddings for their children uh taking the partner to a family dinner how do you you know disclose to the masi and the chachi and the mommy that you know who is going to come as the dinner date uh with your child so it is not easy so the sensitivity holds true for them as well you know they they have to go through their journey and their preconceived notions in some ways um so if we can support them as well in some ways also the coming out is very difficult because we have to think about everything for you at risk you know Sharif spoke about your career might be at risk because people in office might accept you your religion might be at risk you know you grew up just because you're gay it doesn't mean you're no longer Muslim or you don't believe in going to the mosque or you don't um you know believe in your Allah or Islam or whatever that might be at risk your favorite cousin might not want to be you know your favorite cousin any longer your parents might want to reject you your best friend might be awkward so how much is at risk at this coming out really and and how important is this identity the congruence of it that you are willing to risk all of it you know i just if people could just in understand how disconnected life feels uh and you want that matching and you know like bringing your whole self in as Sharif was saying um and that is why you're willing to take the risk of upheaval of all these identities and more and more people are accepting there are a lot of religious groups that are accepting um i i don't hear and otherwise so please do access those groups um and finally um i just want to say that i had a funny story with when he was saying that if you are in the community and you are um you know thriving and surviving in the community sometimes we have stereotypes about our own community in some ways the first time i read lesbian psychology is i thought no men there's going to be no domestic violence it's going to be all pretty and fine they're all women and then i suddenly read a chapter on um you know the fact that there was domestic violence within the lesbian community or there's domestic violence within the gay community and we think those things don't exist because you know the whole the patriarchal structures might be missing or whatever but there are as many issues within the LGBTQ community which might be around um isms of you know like Sharif was saying about phobias or stereotypes or the same there might be stereotypes within or boxes within the community um so don't feel like you have to fit into one mold sexuality as we now know it is very fluid so get the support get explore it figure out what's your identity you know that in the mindfulness that Sharif is talking about finding that individual uh space to figure out what's yours and identifying that's where you feel most connected in some way so that would just what i would leave everyone with fantastic um i think i'm going to go back to that point as the ending point as well because um you know we were talking about self-mindfulness i think that's what Sharif called it is that right Sharif you call it self-mindfulness that wonderful thing of self-love and just understanding yourself and as both understand Sharif said at the beginning that you know everywhere you look there isn't any kind of model to follow there isn't any kind of gay love gay couple model that is put out for you in public to follow and say this is what i will look up to everything out there is heteronormative and you are fighting battles just trying to find yourself so what we suggest is that when you actually go into this idea of feeling really miserable and not understanding how you want to take this further whether you want to accept this this identity of yours you know you are gay but you don't know how to accept it the best thing that you can do for yourself is just for a little bit of time every day have a little fantasy time so give yourself time to fantasize i know that for a lot of young men for a lot of young women it's really hard to see themselves physically in a relationship with another person of the same sex because they don't see it anywhere else so there are no pictures depicting it there's no kind of visuals depicting that and you don't know how it would even look so our advice is go out and actually fantasize about it don't block it out of your mind don't say to yourself oh my god no this is wrong you're in private this is happening inside your head nobody else can access it give yourself the time to think it through visualize yourself with somebody that you really want to be with if it's the same sex person visualize yourself with that same sex person visualize yourself in a state of intimacy whether it is lovemaking whether it is conversations whether it's hugging or holding hands whatever it is see it through like a movie in your head and do this every single day for yourself just a little bit of private time as your own personal completely free therapy and i think that with that is there anything sharia that you want to add just before we bring the video to an end yeah just one thing i'd like to say is uh picking up on what i'm with i was talking about about parents i think we need to be patient with them and we need to have as many conversations with them we need to make them uh you know we need to share information with them as well we need to make them aware uh because it's it's like a coming out journey for them as well because ultimately they have to when they engage with the world around them they need to feel as proud of their children as you feel proud of your sexuality so i think that's something we we all need to because we are the kind of people who want our family around us i think that um that's really good advice sheriff thank you and with that thank you for all of your advice as always i hope i really hope that this is one time when everybody out there who's either within the gay community or not within the gay community that you really do take something away from this because i think it is extremely important i hope that this is brought home to you just that kind of struggles that other people exactly like yourself but with a slightly different idea of love are facing and i don't think it's fair on anybody to have to go through that so please do take away at least a couple of lessons from our video today if you enjoyed the video leave a like leave a comment i am available for questions on info dot sima dot anand at gmail dot com anvita if you wish to get in touch with anvita on um she's sorry it's anvita dot madan behel at gmail dot com for if you are interested in counseling and it will be in the text below and sheriff if anybody needs to get in touch with you what where do they reach out to you it's it's s they can just i think it is off the net for my name i'm on facebook i'm on instagram but otherwise they can email me at sd round maker rang and they are at gmail dot com super as anvita said it'll all be in the descriptions anyway in the meantime do take care of yourselves stay safe and we'll see you next week