 Yeah, I already I already told the speakers of today. This is a session. I am personally most excited about high expectations Why because when we talk about sustainability and technology The assumption is often that it's about solutions For the global north and often the solutions originate from the global north, but can these solutions and also Help tackle issues in the global south and And how can we contribute to develop locally sensitive solutions? To researchers from the Humboldt Institute for a society for internet and society Share the insights from their projects sustainability entrepreneurship Welcome and global digital transformation, and this is a project that is active in 10 cities across Africa Asia and Americas and so without further I'll do I'll do I'll just give the word to you Geo from Richthofen senior researcher from this Research group that I just said just introduced and I see Ali as long gumo shy head of the research group Thank you Speak with my stomach on a different topic Which would be cool. It would be cool. Now what I just wanted to say is I mean the Hick is a bit of a mouth We call ourselves Hick or Hick as in the Humboldt Institute for internet and society We are not the Humboldt who is the namegiver of the Humboldt University It's the other Humboldt the Alexander from Humboldt who was next for which by the way is then linked to this topic So yes together the Georg I'll present very briefly a bit the Institute the group and then one specific project And we titled it between Benin and Berlin so for those of you who thought this is about Algeria It is not right. It's not between Berlin and Benin. We're not talking about the middle Why we're not about the middle's Mediterranean sea. We're actually talking about work in Benin and other countries But we thought an alteration might be quite nice and what I think what is important about the Hick is That what we try is we try to integrate excellent research with impact, right? So we are in a way almost like a hybrid organization that tries to bring in academic research As well as impact and practice and in Germany. There's actually quite a few of these institutes and institutions Whereas in the US and UK you have more of these institutions that are a bit at the border between academia and practice And that's what we also try to position our ourselves. Thank you So the Hick was founded in 2011 We generally claim not only claim we say we're the first German research Institute for internet and society Because there are others who came after us, right? So being the first is something we we cherish But now we have over 70 people working in our institute on topics like AI Democracy and digitalization global governance, etc etc like multiple topics in different programs and groups And I also see some Hicklers or former Hicklers in the room Who also worked worked with us so different topic areas and I think the intersection is generally digitalization and society and in our research group the IES the Innovation on social society research group. We try to focus on kind of the interconnection of three topic areas The first area is innovation entrepreneurship kind of the business side of things, right? So we're interested in how organizations engage Innovatively with with with with topic areas the second one is in society We try to engage with societal grand challenges topics of societal interest and then the third one is digitalization So the work in our group is really kind of the business entrepreneurship innovation Digitalization and society and the inter linkage of these three is what we focus on in our group I must say I feel like walking behind this tree back and forth. It is a beautiful one though. So this is the group You can see here Georg he was a younger then You also see others from this from the set project Christian is up there. There's more it's Christine is there. So this is our research group In the Hague and if you're interested in this work, we have right now Actually, I think there's the deadline was yesterday. We're looking for a student assistant for instance But if you write in your application bits and boimea, we grant you an additional day, right? So right here exclusively you can apply for position a day even after on a project on platform alternatives So what do we actually work on and that this is My final slide and then I'll hand over to gear to zoom in on one of these projects, right? so the Hague the the ES group With it with this team works on complete Quite a diverse range of topics and we try to categorize them obviously any categorization is Artificial somewhat but one of the areas is collaboration openness. I think this is a topic. We have heard in the reset report also being mentioning that global topics need to be engaged with in a coordinated and collective fashion so this is about openness it's about Bringing together different different groups different actors for instance the open next so that every dot effectively is one project So one third-party funded project with a project leader and so on work on this topic area open next Effectively mean very brief input. We all know about open software, etc What about open hardware and especially in times of code 19? If you think about 3d printers for instance back then how do you create open hardware that can be used globally? Quickly, right? So that's a project on this AI into knowledge work is a project that Georg also leads He leads actually two projects at the same time I don't know whether you do it Monday Tuesday or Monday morning or day and night Maybe day one project the night the other project But so AI knowledge work is about the future of work right and one of the projects there We for instance work on is we ask how does AI? Shape the future of work Representation right not just work not just managers, but actually work a representation And then the last one is on people analytics set is the one which Geoq will introduce in the moment We also work on social innovation social entrepreneurship questions about how do organizations bring in different values right meanings So the business side and the sustainability side or the business side and the social side How do you integrate them in an organization is is that? last section platforms and ecosystems is really about I mean digital platforms and Maybe focusing a bit more on like a third way an alternative perspective on platforms so between I mean simply put between China and the US What would be a European alternative to platform to the platform economy? And the other platform project just published a report a couple of weeks ago and the Inka project is starting soon And yeah last I mean last two centers on this as you see we try to be quite creative with the names So Kiwi is Künstliche Intelligenz und Wissen Arbeit so that's the Kiwi part of it Inka is the in from increasing then corporate and then I think accountability That's where the Inka comes from so we also come up with the needy nice names And what the set stands for and what is behind all that is now Well, Geoq will talk about that next and then we're looking forward to a conversation afterwards. Thank you. I Just want to hide it Sorry one more slide one more slide. Sorry. Sorry. I thought I'll just also point out a couple of applications Right and a bit of a glimpse into some of the publications that we have One is a report that we published this year on the promises and pearls of AI in social entrepreneurship Right, so we're wondering how do social ventures engage with AI, right? And maybe also we published normal kind of academic articles This is an essay about design about desirable futures. We effectively question Academic thinking that is oftentimes very retrospective. So the brief Kind of summary of this is most scholarship builds on data that exists But if we can only do research on data that exists, we can only do retrospective research, right? And I mean one one argument in that piece is we say if Trump throws a stake at us I can analyze the stake but if I want a vegetarian alternative and it doesn't exist I cannot analyze it right so how can we do prospective theorizing? How do we can actually co-create futures as academics, which is again very much linked to kind of our role as as the Hick Right, what is the role of academia here? Is it just analyzing or is it actually even co-creating and if we talk about co-creating What is then our actually right to do so as scholars and the last kind of hint is we also have Digital lunch talks. This is one on grand challenges digitalization and sustainability Three more are coming up this year where we engage with these topics digitally with colleagues from quite a range of disciplines so very interdisciplinary and now I really head over to Georg to talk about that Okay, so welcome from my side as well Glad to see so many faces and familiar faces here as well So what I want to do to do is first of all the project Sustainability entrepreneurship and global digital transformation and then afterwards I want to speak about one particular format That we think is quite relevant when it comes to kind of trying to make an impact in the global House as researchers in the global north without kind of kind of just exposing your ideas on the global south and so on So but just give you a big of background about the project So this project is is funded by GE said Deutsche gesellschaft international summer bite on behalf of BM said the German federal ministry of Economic cooperation and development and maybe it's good to to know a little bit about this So basically what and he said has been doing recently in the last five to ten years is to think about development and cooperation work More through the lens of digitalization and digitalization So they've been kind of having a lots of different projects and at some point That what they came up with the idea to build so-called digital transformation centers These are centers He said it's kind of building and lots of different countries where they're already active and these centers are very much focused on Digitalization so for let's say and what they actually focus on in the different countries that arise a lot and that depends and of course always on What is kind of needed most what their political partners prioritize at the time? So for instance in Rwanda that may be focused on entrepreneurship whereas in other and other areas might be more focused on kind of building digital literacy, so it really varies a lot and so what kind of we have like the privilege to do is for for this Yeah, the range of from November last year to April next year We as Hick are something like the academic interface for ten of these digital transformation centers Which have been fairly recently built so they're kind of still looking for expertise and connections and so on and so we basically Try to provide that and I think that's maybe important to know so we are not as a as Hick We're not primarily only doing research, but we also have a lot of people who are very much engaged in science Communication and transfer formats which means essentially that we don't necessarily only down product research But we also try to think about creatively about ways to transfer knowledge and able knowledge exchange and so on so concretely what does that mean so So we have lots of activities planned within these one and a half years So we have two research prints and I will introduce that concept in more depth in a minute Then we have 11 stakeholder dialogues where we bring people together from academia Science but also politics business and civil society to engage in dialogues on particular topics We have studies of course and we have public events public events The aim is always rather rather than a set in-depth conversation about topic is more like raising Kind of awareness for a particular issue that might be relevant to a civil society so these are kind of the activities we have planned and Yeah, just to give you an idea of what these where these ten transformation centers are based So most of them are actually in Western Africa. So in Benin, Cameroon, Ghana and in Niga But they're also we also cooperate with a DTC in Kenya and Morocco And in addition in Asia now this fall we will be in Vietnam and Indonesia and And also next year Mexico and what's also interesting is in Kosovo for instance There's this project where they have this former not NATO base, which is more like coming from architectural Viewpoint kind of thinking about ways how to repurpose this NATO base area for civil society and So today I will particularly actually focus on Ghana and in the context of the research sprint Before that, it's maybe still worthwhile to kind of briefly explain how we what our approaches in these cases so how do we proceed especially when it comes to kind of choosing topics that we actually study and Form it so we always start first of all by Kind of identifying a local needs so this happens in close cooperation with the digital transformation centers on the ground and Because of course these have been built there and other active for several years already And they're not only let's say Geet said consultants from Germany and so on But they also have of course the people who work there who are locals and in addition they work very closely with their political partners So for instance in the case of Benin where we were in in June It's a ministry for digitization. So Benin actually has a ministry for digitization also for quite a while so they kind of talk closely about the topics and priorities and so we had like lots of Lots of different meetings where we talked to both the DTCs as well as their partners kind of come up with the questions We want to address and then next we would kind of Yeah, co-creatively develop these questions and take into consideration of course what we have to offer at the HIC What expertise we have not only at the HIC maybe but also at the network of centers Which are our partner institutes and then last but not least we would kind of think about a format to address these research questions and to develop Knowledge for for people that they can actually use in the end okay, so research prints and so I think maybe it's Hopefully always that research friends is like a metaphor. So it's not like people actually sprinting However from a from a scientific perspective of an academia point of view it can actually a bit feel that way In terms of the the timing we have so the idea of research prints was we think pioneered by like a partner institute of ours and Bergman Klein which is something like the HIC but not in Berlin but at Harvard and so the idea is That basically ideas that the research projects often often last several years So can be like multi-year projects and of course, that's something that is also necessary We don't want to replace that but oftentimes it just takes too long to kind of come up with until these Let's say reports and studies and so on are published, right? And policy makers often often need more timely feedback from researchers So here the idea is okay research print are timely So instead of let's say working on something several years the goal is to generate knowledge within several weeks or month And in addition, however, or at the same time, however, I think they're still let's say allow for more depth than Like classical forms like conferences. So like like being here today This is great, of course that we can have this convert like hear about different sessions discuss them and so on But then of course maybe after the conference you think oh actually this one talk I got this nice idea and then you would discuss it further But then then is not really a format right where you can follow up on this So the other research friends is that you have several sessions for two months So people kind of bring in their perspectives talk about it And then they can also come back and just take the discussion further. So second there international interdisciplinary So I think that's quite important of course to understand especially issue related to digitalization sustainability from multiple perspectives So it's not enough to have say when you talk about the gig economy to have an economist But we also want to have a sociologist and someone with a legal background With the policymaking background because all these perspectives of some matter intensely when we come when we talk about regulating such markets for instance and Yeah, and of course like when it comes to Issue the climate change because it doesn't stop at at borders It's important to have people from different countries there as well last but not least there open and flexible So the idea is that that you start with a relatively broad tropic that you then narrowed more down over time So then questions can be adapted over the time and so can research for key and what kind of data you use and so on So just to give you a one example and already announced it So we had this one research sprint and in summer early summer on a sustainable digital economies in Ghana and here The goal of the goal was really to inform Practitioners and policy makers in Ghana about the country's online gig work ecosystem So when I talk about online gig work, so it doesn't other gig work often you think about maybe uber drivers and so on So that's not what it's meant here It's more meant something like they have a platform where people upload gigs Let's say and we need someone that helps us with with the report Let's say graphic design and then can people can apply for this. So this online gig work Kind of has of course a lot of potential in terms of that It can let's say people from all over the world can kind of get gigs that maybe that we upload here Let's say in Germany. So that's brings a lot of opportunities, but they're also still a lot of limitation to it and Yeah, there's some key facts. So overall we had 11 fellows from nine countries and eight disciplines and so they work together online for most of the time and then the end we had the closing week in Ghana and So with a lot of different outputs. So we in the closing week So basically the sprints engage with conversations with local ministries Local innovation agencies and so forth and then also there was a stakeholder dialogue and event And there will also be a study coming out of it I thought it's just maybe nice to show you a couple of images so that it becomes a bit more Concrete so here you can see one of the sessions that was online where the sprints met and Yeah, and engaged in their weekly session and discussed their progress and so on So this gives you a bit of an idea. So Yeah, and maybe also interesting to know kind of when you facilitate something like this It's relatively complex. So it's not like giving an academic lecture or a seminar. So it's a very different dynamic So it's really good to have not only Academic guidance but also have facilitators and moderators and have these roles also clearly separated to actually Enable that it's a proper proper research print So then maybe some some some impressions from the from the closing week So this was at the labor ministry in Akra and Ghana So where basically the the fellows presented the sprint results and discussed them with them And maybe also try to understand me at the perspective of the of the policy makers a kind of why regulating this this online gig work space is so so complicated and Then towards the end of the week Okay, the one one more picture here of Ghana innovation hub People also gauge to conversations and then there was this mighty stakeholder look dialogue So which essentially where we often use something like the world cafe methods. So the idea is to have different tables Which focus on different topics, but then the groups themselves are quite mixed So there are often people like from academia politics business and so on so that they actually engage in conversation Again here, of course, it's good to think a lot about facilitation and what you need to have the conversation started and and so on and How to actually document findings in the meantime and then towards the end of the stakeholder looks the different Tables would often then basically just represent their findings to the other Tables which couldn't basically have discussed different topics and then we document them and Provide like a synthesis and document and share that with all participants Last but not least there was like a like a panel discussion so Here again as I said before the idea was not let's say to have like a nip discussion with like everyone but there were like three panelists who brought in different perspectives and just kind of more race awareness in Ghana society for this issue and I think it was actually quite a success because we didn't have only this panel but and be live-streamed but also it was afterwards and live-streamed on Radio in Ghana, so lots of people hundreds of thousands of people heard about Generally like the opportunity that comes along with online gig work, but also kind of some of the problems Now the topic here was of course when we talk today about sustainability here obviously it was more focused on like say social Sustainability on decent work and so on but in the overall project. We also have other topics focused so our and Next research Brent will be on on more on green tech in Vietnam Maybe just some key findings. So what what did the fellows learn? So first of all there were a lot of legal uncertainties So when it comes to online gig work, so the status of gig workers is often not clear What does it mean or imply it means for instance that they often is not a clear whether they actually have a right to unionize More over for the government was often quite difficult to say Okay, how can we enforce minimal minimal legal wage because it wasn't clear who's the employer as the employer let's say a Person in Berlin who's uploading the gig to do the graphic design for a study or as the platform So kind of the same discussion that we are having also in Europe about the status of these workers as second was noted the level of geographical challenges in terms of that the That there's a strong Rural divide so that most of the profit Projects accumulate in metropolitan areas such as Acra Which is of course a pity given that it would provide potentially a chance that people can kind of stay in their villages in smaller cities And kind of do this kind of work However, there's this trend that that this is accumulating in metropolitan areas last but not least There was also a big discussion about skill related channel challenges So what if it's people noted is that you don't only let's say need the design the graphic design skills But you also need these kind of self-management skills entrepreneurial skills You need kind of be able to navigate the platform know how to find gigs how to kind of promote yourself Create a profile that then it kind of is in looks in a way that people will actually say Oh, I want to give that task to that person or not So a lot of skills involved which at this time are something Sometimes still lacking on the one hand and on the other hand that was another issue is that often Workers didn't have like a clear picture of what skills are actually valued in these online labor markets So what skills are maybe valued not only now, but also in 10 in two years so they can adjust and in the meantime and Acquire these skills Okay, so that's something I mentioned briefly so the next research print We will start a next month actually on the level of October and so it will Again take place mostly online But there will be a closing week in in Vietnam and here the question is really very much focused on green technology Entrepreneurship so basically in Vietnam is a country which is extremely affected by climate change due to rising sea levels Typhoons and so on so they really have to kind of make this energy transition and a lot of reports coming out These days and kind of looking at priorities and one big priority for Vietnam is a green tech to make the transition both in Transport but also the energy sector and so on However, I mean Vietnam is a communist country. So a lot for instance in energy There's like a state-owned enterprise which almost controls 100% of the energy market Which makes innovation of course a lot more complicated and let's say in France or Germany or so on and So therefore that there's a question of kind of what obstacles do green tech entrepreneurs currently face on the one hand On the other hand from the kind of investor side what factors promote or inhibit investor and investment in green tech startups So these are kind of the questions which are very dear to the heart of the people who are we are collaborating with in Vietnam at the moment and so we will again have Do the sprint and have a mighty stakeholder look and a public events so we represent the findings at the green economy forum exhibition in 2022 in Ho Chi Minh City on the 30th of November So basically and yeah and having something like this in mind Of course is also helpful for the fellows to have a clear goal and they can actually have something that can focus on So yeah, that's something and last but not least what I wanted to mention also is when then the end How we can we in a way kind of scale this knowledge that be that we kind of collect in all these different places and this different Transformation centers and how can we kind of provide it in a way? Let's say to also maybe other Digital transformation centers, which are not in Vietnam But maybe have similar conditions and so on and similar problems and then what this one idea We had is to kind of create a hub for digitalization project descriptions so is the idea is to to have this like a place where you can basically Chronicle cases, let's say at the intersection of digitalization and sustainability And so that people can kind of share insights and learn from each other and we currently actually have an open course So if you're interested in that so just Google knowledge knowledge exchange digitalization or take a picture And so for the first cases is also some incentive involved so that's one idea we have also into a kind of Document the findings in addition to having studies and and panel discussions and and and live streams and so on So yeah, this was such some input So again, I think this research print format can be really interesting If you want to kind of avoid just kind of let's say flying to a place and just holding a presentation But collaboratively both exchanging and and generating knowledge and so yeah We look forward to have to you just to the discussion and we have I think 10 more minutes for Q&A. Thank you very much Who wants to have asked a question? Thank you so much. That was super interesting. I definitely gonna look at the project. I'm just wondering the transfer of knowledge you gather to the specific region or regions the different ones You're probably gonna look at entrepreneurship how you can actually change the education entrepreneurship education How are you gonna include the aspect of maybe purpose or sustainability? just wondering how in which ways you are going to Basically like all the gatherings you make turn turn them back again to your to your collaboration partners I'll take the easy part start and if you want to chip in then I'll hand over to Georg I think the key thing is like with these projects we change what it means to be an academic, right? So normally academia is very distant. You go there. You have a question, etc. This is speedy, but it's also actually the role of the academic becomes that of a moderator So we come with expertise on digitalization We have certain values as well But actually we go in the field and are quite open towards seeing their problems, right? So it's not that we come there with our predefined problems But we say so what are your problems and then we use the toolkits we have so in a way I guess what what do we use we use our human capital or our knowledge we use our social capital or network So we are part of a network of centers of over a hundred inter-institutes. We use our financial capital We have some resources as well and I guess we use our cultural capital We motivate people on the ground also to pursue certain things. That's I guess the generic answer But yeah, maybe you want to continue on that Yes, so maybe it's a good question I think we had the same discussion after the talk before about the reset report So now the report is done But what actually now happens with it how do policy makers and so on learn about it I think in this project we have the advantage that we have these kind of these formats like the stakeholder dialogues and the events already built into the Entrugs or so into into the grant agreement. So actually basically when we go to Mexico We will next year we will have the Results of the sprint and offer study and discuss it in the stakeholder look with policy makers and have public event And I think the good thing is that that these digital transformation centers and let's say now We go back in March next year, but the DTCs are not going anywhere So that's still there and for them it's one of their let's say three key resources whenever they discuss a topic Let's say okay. Well, we have this report on this topic and another report another topic And so basically they can refer to it So I think that's a bit of an advantage that we have in this project transfer formats are already built into the grant agreement Thank you Okay My name is Alejandra. I'm from Columbia My necologist so not that that into entrepreneurship. I have two questions one is regarding a little bit what she said is are you going to monitor how For the future how these stakeholder dialogues evolve or if they get really into a policy change or Are you going to monitor that in in one way and another question is regarding language and you're in different parts So I wanted to know what languages are you talking? It is all English based as this is great a filter for participation Yeah, so thank you for the questions may be first of all about Languages so So given that the that the in the that the fellows come from lots of different places You can see a so often academia than the the go-to language is English So people were getting English however, so now for instance in the when we do the sprint in Vietnam There are also a lot of applicants from Latin America, especially Mexico. So what we now do is we form two two groups also that or we think about form two groups is And basically that the people can also engage in Spanish because they were also some who let's say are not so fluent in English And maybe feel more comfortable kind of contributing the perspective and that and so for instance when we were in Benin because it's such a Francophone country So we also for instance decided that we actually write the study in French because otherwise No one would actually read it and benefit from it So we had very lucky that we have a scholar from Canada who's originally from from from Niga and He is but now there's now an Ottawa So he's both fluent in French and English and so basically we could discuss and everything But then he will write ultimately this the study in French But in addition we would do an exit executive summary in English so the people who don't speak French can actually also at least Get the gist of it and First question Right, and yeah, and that's maybe a big issue making I can send something about this But it's also a big discussion and science in general. I think right how to monitor that Yeah, and so maybe I think again what is our role again? It's changing in terms of like from what the normal academic is doing I think we are not just moderators, but actually orchestrators, right? So when Georg says we could actually commission some of the studies right because we're saying we are not the expert We don't speak the language but also the local language But we know that say the system and we enable others to work further So even with the case studies like we kind of try to be the platform for others, right? So in terms of then like output and so on I mean the gate set has certain KPIs right in terms of reach, etc We will have a follow-up Probably project with the gate set But I think what's also key is for us like when we write the proposal We try to be only a piece of the puzzle and the puzzle should also continue without us, right? And so the gate set as you said will stay there in these different centers and have an institutionalized presence, right? And we like I mean before my in the previous I was a consultant, right? So you fly in you go in for a week and then you're out again, right? And that's obviously it's it's not very healthy, right? And so we see ourselves really as enabling those who are on the ground there to then continue these things So yes, they are KPIs at the same time. I mean, I'm a qual-school. I think you also is permanent qual-schooler We are also very hesitant because obviously things not all things that are good can be measured, right? And oftentimes it is I mean the radio for instance forecast Broadcast at radio we don't know whether that has the impact right and how many people then change their behavior So a lot of these things cannot be measured But we try to keep a track and institutionalize beyond our own engagement Thank you Hi, I actually come my name is Camilo. I come from Mexico I'm very interested in your visit to Mexico if you can send or we're gonna get more information about that next visit And I have a social project. We use open hardware and open software. Sorry, and we bring education to rural Mayan villages without internet access So is there a way we can find a way to collaborate with an institute maybe or how can we do that? Thank you Yes, you can basically when you go to our website There's also a live ticker on the activities that are going on in the set project specifically and Yeah, if you free to reach out also after the conference and maybe there's some some some form it where we can collaborate. So it would be interesting More questions Yeah We'll gather them first. Hi. My name is Jacob spheres. I Used to be a scientist, but at the moment I'm work for the Berlin development agency My question is With your project with your approach you put a very very intense question up front when it comes what is actually the functionality of science itself so my question would be where do you see the limitations of what what I would call engaged science Because you are very and maybe too much into it and in the thick of it I will first Get some more questions. Okay So my name is Thomas up now I'm from the Accenture Development Partnerships Program here in Germany and I would be curious to Understand your view on the gig economy. You mentioned the example in Ghana Because it's a way of embedding local workers into international value chains. So What's your assessment on the long-term positive or negative impact for Sustainable structural development of similar countries. Thank you another question. I can We can already address now. Okay, then I hand back to you Thank you, so I'll address your question because this is something I actually write about and there's a huge debate in academia on engaged scholarship And one of them who just died wrote a book on engaged scholarship a Hoffman wrote a book on the engaged scholar So this is a topic which is quite hot right now I what's the role of an academic in these things and I mean when we teach obviously we teach students like you up And they do participant observation you observe the moment you engage you also I mean you infiltrate you shape the field It's a right. You're kind of you might shape and put your own vices on this So all these things are important, right, especially in a global context, right? Who are we in the moment? You obviously even enter right? So if you if you enter a field your identity is something which is seen and all that is has an impact Right, like so if we go to the global south and we look white for instance or whatever Then that has an impact on maybe how people converse right so for an Qualitive scholar for scholars generally all these things have to be considered some of them can be trained As in like with ethnographic scholarship others are just there by I guess by situation, right? and then what I've written a piece on contextual expertise where I try to argue for like bringing in other Scholars etc and certain methods, but I guess my my quick response is on the other side though What I like about engage scholarship is that we are not just sitting back and watch but actually Co-create right and so it creates a lot of new tensions But I think there's also a lot of power behind that and the challenge for that on the other side though Is it is still very much? Delegitimized by the field so with an academia I mean my PhD scholar students for instance with them It's a very careful process because in academia itself. It's still something. Yeah, which is doesn't have the same legitimacy as distant positivist scholarship Yeah, thanks much for the question and think it's a good one However, I mean Ali in the beginning showed the slide with all the people who work in the innovation entrepreneurship research group And so this particular question was a kind of more coordinated by Farben Stefani You so I can leading expert on the gig economy especially online gig work and I'm more than happy to connect you to because I think it's I can't really Answer this question conclusively or and you got Then I think we are now one minute over time So I will close this session. Thank you very much. Also. Thank you for your questions and Have a thank you and have a great rest of Bits and Boomer