 Hello everybody, welcome to another social distancing social from future tense, which is a partnership of Slate, New America and Arizona State University as I need to remind you. Today we are going to be talking about the role of first, I guess I should again introduce myself again I'm Jordan Weissman Slate senior business and economics correspondent. And we're going to be talking about the role of the private sector in times of crisis, because we're in a crisis. It's sort of pretty bad crisis. We're facing unemployment unseen since the Great Depression and a plague all at once it's a little bit of a nasty combo. And so I am joined by Rebecca Henderson, a professor at Harvard Business School, who has a recent book reimagined capitalism in a world on fire, in which she argues that capitalism sort of needs to be rethought businesses need to change the way they act in a environmental catastrophe and spiraling inequality. I am also joined by Dean Sanjeev Kagram of Dean and Director General of the Thunderbird School of Global Management at Arizona State University. Sanjeev and Rebecca, thank you for joining me. Thank you for having us. I'm going to start by directing question to you right now. And your picture is a little frozen are I think are you there with us right now. I think we've lost Rebecca at the moment there seems to have been some technical difficulties. So Sanjeev, it's you and I talking for the moment. Okay, no worries. We can adapt. The people doing if Broadway stars doing, you know, a good proposition. Yeah, you attribute to, you know, company or whatnot and deal technical difficulties so can we. So you are. Thunderbird is all about change you teach about how to deal change how to Oh, Rebecca, you're back. All right, go back over. This is this is this is life in the air of COVID and maybe the future after COVID we're going to talk about that is this is this is this what we are all bound to be doing for the rest of our lives as workers. So, you wrote a whole book about capital capitalism needs to change to deal with the various heart rate of horrors that we're dealing from climate change inequality. First, I have a question. How, you know, specifically kind of give me an overview of the ways you thought capitalism needed to change. And does the crisis that we are now facing make that more or less likely that that is going to happen in your opinion. Are we going to see the change we need. I thought that capitalism was wildly unbalanced. I'm a huge fan of capitalism. I teach at the Harvard Business School I think it's unparalleled source of prosperity, but we were going in a bad direction. How could you tell we weren't dealing with the environmental crisis, particularly climate change. The prosperity that we were generating was not being shared anything like widely, and our political systems were starting to shake under the strain. And there was a widespread perception in fact here in the US that the political system was rigged that nothing they people could do would make a difference creating all kinds of institutional pressures. So it felt to me as if capitalism was wildly out of balance. I like to say that free markets need free politics, as much as business people don't don't care much for regulators or government, they need them. And I think what the pandemic has shown us is that that is true in space. I mean inequality has become much more visible. We've seen the essential workers not being able to take time off if even if they're sick. And we've seen that yes you need a federal government that the failure of the federal government to step up and act as a coordinate unit to provide a public good is a huge problem. So I think the pandemic has really thrown a spotlight on on our problems in a way that you know people say how did you know to call it. Reimagining capitalism in a world on fire what the world was on fire beforehand it's just burning a little harder right now. Previously California was literally in Australia were literally on fire now it's now we're dealing with now we're dealing with a different play well now actual play a different horrible misfortune. I want to come back to this question of whether or not businesses are or kind of the corporate communities learning that change really needs to happen, or if it maybe is getting the opposite lesson I want to come back to that but before we get deep into that the weeds there said I want to ask you, you know you're, you, you guys at Thunderbird very much believe that we're heading for or we're heading for an era of rapid change that businesses, either technologically because of technology or politics needed to kind of rethink the way they are going to be working. I was hoping rather than me but words in your mouth a you could kind of give me, you know, the elevator pitch version of the change that you, you foresaw and also how is this pandemic, possibly going to change that or alter the course of that change. Well, I want to just say that I very much agree with Rebecca's analysis and that's where we, you know I took over Thunderbird two years ago and as I have said again and again there are three fundamental challenges slash opportunities and they're very much aligned with what Rebecca said. The first one is globalization and that sort of the rise of nationalism the populism which are connected to that inequalities that Rebecca was talking about absolutely right. Globalization was incredibly successful in terms of lifting lots of people out of poverty, incredible transformation but there was a lot of undersides and inequality was a major fundamental part of that. The second is the sustainability of the planet again would Rebecca one just confirm exactly climate change. You know we're talking about the Australian fires my partners Australian, we were actually there during the fires that feels like a decade ago. But now that we're in go you know to be because you know we were there watching this thing in Victoria and, you know, really family members houses going on fire. So, you know, absolutely, whether it's definitely climate change but the six extinction one could go on and on and on. But for me the and us the optimistic side or the potential side possible side was the fourth industrial revolution with all of its challenges was still that this cascading set of technologies, AI Internet of Things 3D printing on and on and on. And how do we maximize the benefits of this fourth industrial revolution, learning from the previous three and minimize this cost the issues of privacy and cyber and all the other things that we know to advance a sustainable equitable prosperity so very much again in line with what Rebecca was saying. And our view was pre COVID that that had to do with having three things. One was a new set of sort of global leaders and managers that could both embrace like have what we call a digital global mindset. A global mindset is something for us where it's a, it's actually an actual inventory and intellectual social and psychological proclivities fluencies for bringing the world together for working across cultures across borders and so forth and so on. A second is a real digital sort of sensibility. Not everyone has to be a Python expert but they have everyone in our view in the global business sector let's focus on that since that's the focus has to be able to embrace these new tech technologies understand how they work and what their upsides and downsides are and be able to work them. And then a third is a read. And this is again very much in line, a recalibration of the social contract for business and society, and in particular, a new kind of approach to cross sectoral sort of private public civil society relations, and we focus particularly that at the global level, where global cooperation as we know, over the last five years has really declined dramatically the pandemic is a perfect example of it where we don't have the kind of global cooperation we had during the global financial economic crisis with the G 20 and so forth. So that's really, you know, those are the fundamental building blocks. And COVID as I've written about and I believe strongly is only, I think Rebecca agrees, accelerated these transformations and put them into sharp relief. So, I want to connect something you both kind of touched on which is this idea of recalibrating the social contract that something again there there needs to be, we need to rethink the relationship between business and government or public and private sector. But, you know, Rebecca, you said that you feel like the COVID is sort of highlighted the need for that that it's sort of brought into even sharper relief than it was before. But let me put on my cynic tap here. Right. If I'm, let me put a sentence that if I'm a fortune 500 CEO, what I see is just happened is that Congress in the United States, we had a pandemic and there was a late response, but Congress eventually passed a 2.2 trillion dollar bill that allowed the Federal Reserve, among other things to start to stabilize the entire corporate debt market and make sure that large corporations were going to be able to float through this, even if business is bad, they're going to survive stocks are up. And while the rest of the bailout might not exactly be doing what it's supposed to big business is going to survive. And it's going to come out of this okay. Isn't, isn't it possible that one lesson that corporations are going to learn is actually the social contract is working pretty well for them, even when things get get bad. No. Okay. Okay, tell me why the cynic here is wrong. What we're seeing, I think is a continuation of business as usual before the pandemic, which is a nasty tendency for business to be able to privatize the upside and socialize the downside. So in that sense, what we've seen is, that's a little harsh for just happened. I think very hard for a government to let the large corporations go down, or to let the credit markets go down the knock on effects on the rest of the economy would be huge. I think if I'm a CEO I'm not saying, Oh, this shows all right all's right with the world. I think CEOs take the big CEOs take it completely for granted. Of course, our stability is warranted. Of course they stabilize the credit market. Whoa, we still have a very serious problem. These are small things but do you remember in the early days of the pandemic we had billionaires tweeting from their yacht. Here I am, you know, sheltering in place on my yacht in the grenadines. Yes, I do recall the super yachts. Trust in business has fallen significantly over the pandemic. If you look at the latest Edelman survey. Trust in business is in government is way up. Trust in business is way down. The perception that the rich are sitting on their yachts making out like bandits while I am delivering food on the front lines without bonus pay without health care. That perception has got stronger and every CEO I know is is worried about it. It used to be tough for me to sometimes raise these issues of inequalities with business people. Now it's easy. Now it's clearly top of mind. So no, I don't think they feel more relaxed. I think they feel more jumpy. Since you said that, you've talked to CEOs who are more worried. Can you give me some anonymous samples of the kinds of things you've heard from them? Like what are they telling you? Are they fearing the pitchforks? So it used to be when I said if we don't address these problems we face either right wing or left wing populism and both of them end in extraction and you're not going to like that. People used to look at me like, whoa, whoa, slow down Henderson. What are you thinking? Now people go, uh-huh. That's a very different response. That idea that no seriously that the system may be fundamentally at risk. And I think to be fair, a lot of business people are very distressed by what they're seeing. That seeing this kind of widespread unemployment, seeing people struggle, seeing the visceral problem of what it's like to be trying to survive at the bottom of the income distribution. You know, most CEOs spend a lot of time in bubbles, very nicely lined bubbles working incredibly hard. And I think one of the things the pandemic has done is shatter that bubble just a little bit to sort of have a broader engage a thought of what's going on. Sorry, I'll stop. I can keep going. I'm an academic. I'll stop. Oh, so this is actually, this is interesting because I'm going to try to translate a little bit what, you know, what I think you're saying and then kind of turn it back over to the Dean. But, you know, I think a lot of critics of contemporary capitalism will say that there used to be this mentality in the United States that even though there were class divides, there were still sort of a unanimity of purpose that everyone understood there was like, a little part of a civil society. Right. And that was sort of born out of wartime that there was some, you know, there were there were connections between the guy running GM and his workers. And it sounds like what you're saying is and that they all needed the system to work for anyone to kind of thrive. What sounds like you're saying is that we're kind of going through a wartime experience now in a way that's making people realize, that we all need a system that benefits everyone or it's all going to fall apart. It's going to be trouble is that, is that a, that we're kind of getting a taste of life during wartime is that a maybe a thing to I think Rebecca may have been lost again. I think we've lost her. I think we've lost her feed so unfortunately technical difficulty strike again that Sanjeev I guess let me let me then ask you you mentioned that you think there needs to be a change in the social contract between business and the public sector or wider society. And that's sort of what Rebecca's talking about is there needs to be a change in the social contract that and now this is sort of an aha moment for a lot of CEOs. What, what are you imagining this change would look like what how how does the the compact underpinning business and society need to change and Yeah, I mean I guess I mean I appreciate Jordan the focus on CEOs and I appreciate the focus on the US but I want to be a little bit provocative here and actually push us out of that because we have a tendency to look at everything from the United States and from the most powerful within US corporations and the world is changed dramatically I am in the heart of very provincial New Yorker. So I'm going to pull you out of New York. I grew up in New Jersey, but I was born in bad so we are a global school. I just was on a webinar webinar with Kenyan head of the Kenyan securities exchange the head of Safari calm this morning. CEOs around the world we've had global ours with CEOs from all over the world and companies from all over the world. We have to we have to sort of take what's happening and let's look at what's happening in terms of global capitalist right now. Look at China right now this the engine of globalism for the last globalization for the last 25 years. That system is no matter how much, you know, people try to wrap around this we know right now that it's, it's, it's shaky at best. The sinophobia that exists in the world amongst the private sector as much as governments around the world is at all time peaks, the push to move to decentralize or diversify the global supply chains, either bring them back on shore to the United States or Europe or wherever it might be, or more importantly to take it elsewhere to India to wherever it might be. That's a fundamental driver that's happening right now and Kobe has just, you know, kind of ripped the band aid off completely. Right. Now, let's go back to what's happening in terms of corporate CEOs if you look, you know, I talked to them like Rebecca does, but look at their if you look at the confidence surveys. Six months ago, they're all thinking, you know, we're going to go to a soft landing in the global economy, but we're still going to be fine. We're still going to make lots of money. Our companies and us individually. Now, if you look at it's very variable. I mean if you look at Australian CEOs, they think we're going they're going to rebound really well that's probably because Australia's didn't really well a great job of handling COVID. Obviously us CEOs are, you know, in despair. We had the Boeing CEO on come on today earlier right. Rebecca saying, you know, we're looking at airlines going away. So despite your previous question about the $2.2 trillion package and more to come that was quote unquote could be seen as bailouts for companies. In fact, there's going to be fundamental transformation disruption and industry in the US, including. So one, let's take a global perspective and see how it's, you know, capitalism is global, and it's come and but, you know, different governance systems. You know what's happening in Sweden is totally different. That's what's happening, you know, in Brazil. Let's look at Brazil. I mean, look at what's happening in Brazil, totally different. I took CEOs in Brazil, and they're in complete despair because you know what kind they were just seeming to get out of what was a doldrums for a long time in Brazil. And now that's completely changed. Given that we have what we're predicting now is from 200 million unemployment in the world to 400 million. That's the latest ILO figures. Yeah, there's no way that a corporation and a CEO and their board is not looking at that and exactly saying what Catherine I mean Rebecca saying we can't there's no we have to fundamentally transform. And we did just I'll put the last point on this. We did a global in our with MUFG, which is the fifth largest bank in the world we had the CFO, we had all the senior leadership. They instituted pre COVID compassion training in all of their with all of their employees around the world. And now they want to be the most trusted bank in the world to go back to Rebecca your great point about trust and business sector trust going down and government going up which which was different pre COVID right. The whole focus on trust will require businesses corporations and therefore CEOs to make really dramatic shifts and how they engage with customers with suppliers with other stakeholders and we were already talking about this at the World Economic Forum in January when the pandemic was already going on and we were all sitting there thinking like nothing's happening. And there it was we came back and it's a full blown global pandemic. Just the dramatic shift we went from a global economy that we expect you to go 3% this year, and now we're down to a negative 3%. It's a total the terrain is completely shifted and corporations will have to adapt and are adapting they have to. So I want to try and pin this conversation down to a few more specifics you know you talk about Rebecca how, you know, companies realize there's a need for the social compact change in some respects to be more open to say regulation. You say that there's a realization amongst the global leader global business community that things are falling apart and there needs to be a big rethinking of what the system is going to look like in the future. Yes, I want to know from each of you what you think actual real constructive change would look like right so I want to start with you Rebecca what, what kind of changes, do you think, you know, the CEOs or the business leaders you taught to are actually becoming more amenable to like what do you think that, you know, is it going to change what they lobby for or against is it going to change the way they treat workers and some in some significant way. What do you expect. I think we'll see much more interest in high road employment models. That is where we treat people with dignity and respect pay them a decent wage, give them some control over their work high degrees of job security. There's a lot more interest in so called shared value business models that is how do we continue make to make money but address some of the social and economic and environmental problems I think we'll see that accelerate. I hope we'll see more collective action among business people, whether it's regionally or at the industry level, because a lot of these kinds of problems are easier to address if business comes together. So, if we together decide in Minneapolis, or we together decide to address the problem of horrible labor regulations in Bangladesh. I will see, I hope, I hope, I hope we'll see the conversation change so that the big business peak associations the Chamber of Commerce, the business roundtable, the ICC talk much more about businesses role as a partner in the broader system, than about shareholder value shareholder value shareholder value. I mean, returning adequate returns to investors is important got to keep the company going, but the point of the business should be I think generally acknowledged to be playing a role in the larger system and hands in very concrete tangible way. And send you, you know, similar question for you. You're talking about an even broader group like the global business community. I mean, we're both talking about the global community but you know what when you say that there's a recognition that the system isn't working and that there needs to be what kind of specific concrete things do you think that they, you know, we're talking about new kind of global business governments or governance organizations or what what what do you imagine in your mind's eye. So there's what what is normatively desirable and then there's what's probable and possible right so in terms of what's normatively desirable is a fundamental rethinking of global governance where global business plays as, you know, Rebecca was starting to create a much more fundamental role in creating new forms of public private partnerships that read does very concretely refashion the the the sort of social contract. Now, look, even, I guess, I think one thing just to add though, Jordan, is that corporations. We're going to within the business sector within industry, we're going to see the rise and decline of different sectors within that different corporations. So there's going to be quite a shakeout. Overall, my prediction is in fact that the corporate sector is going to be much weaker relative to COVID to post COVID. And in fact, we're going to have a new wave of small medium sized business entrepreneurship innovation so forth and so on. And that's really going to drive the global economy going forward. That's, and that's going to fundamentally change the power balance. In terms of the private sector so that's just a prediction that I'm making right now. That's really interesting. I actually want to, I want to push you a little bit on that because a lot of people right now if you talk to like, you know, kind of policy won't types right in Washington are worried about the exact opposite that right now we're seeing is a brush fire. We're going to wipe out small entrepreneurs and small businesses and startups, and only leave the big sequoias, right, like the big the fortune 500 kind of companies standing. And it's actually going to be sort of it's going to, you know, whatever trends there were towards concentration of monopolization of markets, it's going to accelerate, you actually think it's the opposite so why, why do you think that's the opposite. Let me make sure I'm saying in some sectors, you're going to get more concentration and more power so you're going to get, you know, the Amazons of the world will continue to grow and the Huawei's and so forth they will, they are the winners right in this in this COVID post COVID world right but other sectors airlines travel, you know, we can go on down you know. And entertainment is going to really change so there's a lot of sectors where companies that were historic household names air, you know, are not going to be there are not going to be the powerhouses that they were. Now, within that then yes, small and medium sized businesses are hurting, not only the United States, but all over the world, but you're going to in my view we're going to see a really fancy hope. I believe very positive and transformative new generation of small and mediums new startups. I, you know, I'm a big fan of entrepreneurship and I think that entrepreneurship and innovation, we're already decided to see it. I'm a believer in human ingenuity. And I think that the stressors and strains of COVID are only going to, you know, sort of accelerate this and the technologies that we've been talking about are going to empower that. The question is, is government going to come to the party and really do what they need to do as good partners. And so when we look at these stimulus packages around the world, the sad part in my view is, we don't have enough in terms of really focusing on new business generation. We don't have enough in terms of upskilling and reskilling of people that have lost employment or need to get employment. And we don't have enough of a transition to a green economy. And green infrastructure, a green new deal. Those three fundamental things that governments need to take the leadership on, that's not happening. That's where business needs to push and say, this is what these stimulus packages need to have. You're worried that the governments are wasting a good crisis. Absolutely. Absolutely. This is an opportunity for a fundamental transformation. And we're losing this opportunity. Speaking of opportunities, I want to remind everyone to send in questions if you have them. Please email them over if you've got questions for either of our guests. That would be, you know, we want to hear them in a few minutes. Once they're emailed over to me, I will, I'll start asking them. I should really check my email right now to see if any have come in. I should. Oh, questions for webinar. Actually, they already started coming in. So I'm behind schedule here. I'm a very professional host. Let me tell you this. This is what it's like listening to me on a podcast. If anyone here is wondering. So, yeah, let me, let me, let me look. Okay, here's, here's, okay, here's one from Lucas Myers. What are examples? Some of you, I think this is probably for you, but we'll see. What are examples of inevitable change that COVID-19 has radically accelerated? What, what, what are the things that were already happening that is just definitely are going to come at us faster now? I think I'm going to go two or three. One is, look, the move away from physical infrastructure in terms of corporations to, you know, sort of remote working and learning and virtual teams. We're never going back to a world, you know, you already see companies, right? I'm sure Rebecca, you have talked into them like I'm talking to them and saying they're saying we're not, we're reducing our future budgets in terms of new physical infrastructure plants, certainly office buildings and things like that. That's a thing of the past. We can do that. Why would we even have people come back when we can work so efficiently this way, reduce costs and stuff like that. So that I think it's never coming back again. I actually have a, I have a question about that specifically, which is, what about the fact that people are going crazy right now, like working from home? Sort of like the next open office thing where like everyone decides to go to like all digital and everyone's like, I hate this. Like, are people in businesses looking at our kind of work arrangements right now and saying, oh, yes, this is the future? I find that a little bit bleak, I have to say. I think Sanjeev is putting the case a little too strongly. I think there are some firms that are saying maybe we don't need as much office space as we had, but I think one of the other things that's happening is we're becoming very aware that there are some things you can't do remotely. Yeah. And, and that that's an important part of the puzzle. I mean, I take where you're going Dean, but I don't think we're going to stop building office buildings completely anytime soon. I really don't. Now you heard it here. We're going to have a respectful disagreement where I'm going to say in five, we're going to come back in a year or three years of five years, and I'm going to put some money down on the fact that we're going to have a massive open office, even more than we already have. And, you know, actual investments in new office space is going to decline dramatically and co-working and shared are going to go way up. I do want to get out of the house. Jordan's going back to your question, but they're not going to go to their offices for their companies. They're going to go to co-working spaces. So I see that industry actually going up very strongly. And I'm not saying you. So this is, this is the thing they're going to redirect their employees to these co-working spaces, you know, and so that industry I'd put, I'd invest in those companies and for those, I feel like you need to put some skin in the game right now and like, I only have still commercial real estate. You can try and short like and just like that'll really mark your market. All right, so that is one. So that's, we have some disagreement on the extent, but a little, at least we're all a little bit more open to the idea of telework. Are there other, are there other big trends that either. Well, let me have Rebecca go first. I have a couple of, but I'll let you put one, we can go back and forth and do a little tag. Rebecca, what's another one that you say coming. A massive investment in Biomed. I sit on the board of Amgen and I spent 10 years of my life studying pharmaceuticals. But I think the last 20 years have been all about IT and digitization. And absolutely that continues to be incredibly important. I completely agree that's going to transform things. But I think this is really the age of Biomed and it's kind of, it's a sputnik moment for Biomed. We're going to see lots of children go into biology. We're going to see lots more biological engineering, a lot more tracking. I think it's very striking privacy preferences are really shifting. So I think we'll see much more biometric tracking, much more physical track. I think we, oh no, we, you're back. Okay, good. Yeah, for a second we thought, I thought we lost you there again. I was nervous. That's interesting that we especially, you know, if, if we do actually at any point manage to get a test and trace regime up and running in the US, you would expect people to eventually get more comfortable with the idea of tracking. You know, like they are in, in much of East Asia, for instance, it's less of a, I guess, less of a cultural issue there and it might change here as well. So I could, I could definitely see the contours of how that would happen. What, what, what's another, what's another trend that we can, I can put money on. You go ahead, you do one more, Rebecca, then I'll jump in. Okay, Rebecca, one more for me. One more for sure. Yeah, for sure. For sure, for sure. So I'm going to go out on a limb. I'm going to say I think that big finance is going to be even more focused on climate change than it was before. Really, there was a gathering movement to suggest that climate change was potentially a catastrophic risk to the financial system. I think the people who control a huge proportion of the world's invested assets had come to the reluctant conclusion that. And I think what the pandemic has done is remind us that disasters can really happen. So I've been talking to CEOs who said, I used to manage my supply chain for cost and efficiency, going forward, I'm going to have to manage for risk. Interesting. So I think we're certainly going to see a much more focus on risk is the most obvious one. But I expect big finance not to back off on pushing on climate but to in fact increase and speed up and indeed everyone to think about their businesses from as much a risk perspective. As a drive a good cost to the lowest common denominator. That's part of the declobalization that Sanjeev talked about, but I think it's broader than that willing to pay to avoid certain kinds of risks. Are you also are you kind of gesturing towards like the black rock effect here like the Larry flink. Larry flink Jesus, Larry thing, like, you know, kind of sustainability pusher sustainability is that kind of you are you saying that's sort of going to be more serious. That's exactly where I'm. That's exactly where I'm going I mean the technical term for Larry rocks customers the people who are pushing him. Yeah, are universal owners. People like Hiromizuna, who was run the Japanese government pension fund, 1% of all the world's equities. For him he can't diversify away from the risk of climate change, or indeed the risk of social social unrest. So he sees it or so it is his fiduciary duty to push this. And he's one of the people was pushing Larry so absolutely that's where I'm gesturing. I used to be really skeptical about the impact of those sorts of corporate sustainability initiatives and what you know, or groups like black rock we're doing, but recently, actually, some Republicans in Congress have started to get worried about it and it started talking about the idea of financial managers discriminating against oil fossil fuel companies. And so that's what that gave me a sense once, once the GOP is freaking out it actually gave me a sense maybe there's something to this that there might actually be a serious, a serious issue to consider here. Sorry, and so you're going for one more, one more, one more kind of guaranteed trend that's heading that's coming at us. Okay, so I'm going to give you two or three number one. So we used to think, depending on how you look at the data, China's already the world's largest economy purchasing power parity. You know, let's say that it's not with COVID. The prediction is that in the next two years, China will be the world's largest economy. Yeah, and with that, there will be the, you know, associated flexing of power, and depending on particularly the US election. You know, the potential for, as we know, even exact further exacerbated China US relations and what that would the cascading effect of that. And on the on the Chinese side, even a more aggressive attempt to shape the international order. And that with no norm. I'm not making a judgment that that's good or bad. I'm just, that's kind of just a, I think that that's almost a guarantee that we're headed that way. If the US election is a big unknown there. And, you know, we'll see and then of course there's the biggest unknowns in the sense of, you know, we still decode the pandemic. Are there going to be future waves? Are we ever going to get had a good test thing? Are we going to get a therapy? Are we going to get a vaccine? Well, that, but independent of that China's continued rise and preeminence then in the global in terms of global the global economy. Absolutely. The interesting countervailing force in my view is that you're going to have a diversification away from China in terms of global supply chain. It's not easy to do. It's way more complicated that US, you know, folks are talking about government. Oh, we're just going to bring it all back. Well, you know, if you can't snap your fingers and bring it right. You're not going to bring the whole global supply chain back from China. Nonetheless, there will be continued pulling out of an attempt of diversifying away from China as the sort of the engine and the core of global supply chains. And so that actually is very interesting because I do agree with Rebecca on everything she said about finance being more aggressive on the climate change front global finance and companies more generally and the supply chain. So it'll be very interesting to see what that can be a virtuous, the moving away from China in terms of those supply chains and therefore risk management being, you know, that you were talking about Rebecca being better in terms of social environmental factors being integrated to this diversified global supply chain. So there's two, but it's all revolves on China. And I think we just how critical that is, you know, that dynamic is going to be in the next, you know, for the foreseeable future but certainly in the next two to five years. How do you balance, I mean, in a world where China is becoming even more central and more powerful and brushing up against us interests even more and there'll probably be more sort of new Cold War talk and bluster. How do you, how, if that's if that's the environment we're heading to, right, like more kind of great nation clashing. How, how do you build the necessary global institutions and cooperation we're going to need to prevent another crisis like this from happening. Well, Rebecca, if I could just jump in because I think it's your argument I complete in this argument I make it I think we agree global business actually has to be a force for new global governance institution let's take AI. Right. We need desperately global governance around emerging technologies. We produce a white paper with the World Economic Forum and global governance of emerging technologies. We are so far from being able to regulate in an effective way to maximize the benefits and minimize the costs of all these cascading technologies particularly AI global business and particularly going back to global tech companies that are going to benefit are benefiting from COVID and getting even stronger. They have to play a phenomenally important role. Amazon, Microsoft, Apple, all of these companies, Huawei, all of them. So that's going to, I think they have to play a leadership role global leadership role. Let me just jump on that, which is by saying, and I know this is not a guarantee of world peace, but we really need to globalize in order to deal with the big challenges that threaten the stability of the world's economy, not just AI, although governance of AI is absolutely critical, but also forgive me climate change I'm a broken record. Absolutely no you know absolutely Chinese absolutely know that climate change is a huge problem that they can't solve alone that they must have global cooperation. But at some level, we're going to be much more worried about future pandemics than we were. We're going to watch that we're going to be worried about the economy we know that trade is good for business. So I think there's at least a business case or if you prefer a strong alignment of interest. So I hope we could move to something that looks less like the Cold War, and more like a kind of mutually careful regard. You don't trust each other, but you absolutely understand you need to work together I know some marriages like that right so we know that that's possible. Trust you're describing a marriage the way Reagan described USSR. Well but if I could continue on the family theme here Jordan, I wanted to just bring in something else which is you know I have three children, a 20 year old 14 year old and a five and a half year old now six year old stepdaughter. Now, before COVID right, Rebecca we were already talking about the war for talent, and also how Gen Y Gen Z, when the old Gen Y Gen X Gen Y Gen Z were really putting fundamental pressures on business and society and government. The interesting question you know talking to my kids and obviously you know, you know for them this is their fun, you know, if you're talking about teenagers this is their first fundamental global crisis right now they're too young during the global financial economic crisis. We already know that they're more environmentally conscious they're more socially conscious they know so forth and but they also don't they're not big government fans they're not big company fans. And so this in my view, I would welcome Rebecca thoughts and others, but it seems to me that that's only accelerate going back to accelerating trends that those young people are even less trustful of all these big institutions are even more focused on these new kind of post industrial values. And so, as the question is how active they become, and what way they become active. And that I don't feel like that's a crystal ball. It's hard, you know, it's hard to know if that you know, if they jump into the US elections, will this is this a motivating thing for them to jump into the US elections. I don't know, but could they possible on the on the private sector type side, where do they want to work in the future, or do they want to this goes back to my point about more small I mean, I think they're going to just go entrepreneurial. They don't want to be part of those big companies they want to do their own thing it's just going to further that, you know, Silicon Valley generation kind of thing. I don't know, those are just speculations, but I do think that this whole demographic transformation is something we have you know, going back to my global perspective, the average age of an African is 18 years old, right, 18 years old. And so we're talking a totally different demo demographics when you're talking about the content of South. I have a final question that I want to ask each of you, as we kind of hit for hitting hitting our timeline but you're both educators you're, you know, you're both at business schools. Is there one thing that this crisis is going to change how or tell me, I guess, one thing that this is going to change that you teach, right, or is there like something that you teach students now that's going to change because of this crisis. Rebecca, you first is there anything that's going to change in your lessons that you want it you're going to be imparting differently to students in the future. I'm going to talk much more about risk. Yeah, and the impact of these large risks on business. Yeah, and I'm going to talk much more about government. Yeah, and why the knee jerk reaction which is we have nothing to do with government we don't trust government it never works. Why that's wrong. So I would expect going forward to significantly increase the weight on just some basic ideas. Why free government makes free societies the history of, you know, a little bit on the history of democracy. And that's that's not material we would have covered in depth before. Interesting. And, you know, I was at the HBS for a long time. And I think we missed each other. I left away before you came. I'm sorry that I'm not there. Send my great regards to Debra Spar. I miss everybody. They're fantastic. I'm such a big fan. Look, for us, we really charted it really, you know, Thunderbirds always been kind of a Maverick global business school as I'm sure Rebecca will confirm it. Part of the reason I got attracted to it. Entrepreneurial. You know, it just, you know, it was the first to really I think Rebecca would confirm this to really do international business as a kind of core way of looking at the world. And really what we've done since I've come is to take the very best of our past and really embrace the future. And what I mean by that is we use we have a masters of global management. We're not even doing an MBA as we used to do a masters of international management and our magical diamond is global management, business skills, really understanding global affairs, international economics, international affairs, cultural languages, making sure every one of our students speaks a second language is deeply ingrained in cross cultural communications and negotiations, and then a big embracing of the 21st century and there we connect two things. One is new technologies, the fourth industrial industry, 4.0, whatever you want to call it. And the second is really a new commitment to sustainable and equitable prosperity and climate change and equity, all the things that, you know, was been talking about. So that's everything we're doing in our programs soup to nuts from our women at the bottom of the pyramid entrepreneurship programs, all the way to our executive programs. Everything that we're focusing on and COVID has only made it clear that we have to do even more of this. More, more, more good globalization. Can I have just a couple of sentences Jordan. Yeah, sure. With all due respect Dean, I think you cheated. You know, if I get to tell you what we're going to accelerate. I was moved into the first year course on leadership and governance and ethics this year, specifically to teach more about what how should government think how should business think about the social contract. What does it mean to think of yourself embedded in this wider world what does business leadership mean today. We have completely redone our first year course in response to these kinds of pressures. Are you redoing any are you redoing any courses. Are you are you doing any courses. We actually fundamentally transformed our whole curriculum. Two years ago when I came in every single piece of it is towards this area and so we're just like just deepening what I know is happening and you know we looked. Like I said I'm a huge fan of HBS and so many great colleagues. I've learned so much and continued to all of us business schools management schools leadership schools where this is the way we must go I I'm sure you agree. Rebecca, it's our social contract it's our social obligation to make sure that we do to be fair everyone is moving. Everyone can see this absolutely central we equip our MBAs for this new world. And on that note, this has been a great conversation. Thank you, Rebecca, Sanjeev. Thank you, Rebecca. Thank you, Jordan. Thank you, Sanjeev is a pleasure Jordan. Thank you very much. And thank you to everyone for joining us today. There are going to be more future tense social distancing socials to come every day and Thursday so on that note goodbye and thank you.