 Okay. So we're live. Good morning. It's a Thursday, June 25th, 1023. Sorry for the late start. We ran into a hiccup on being able to make the meeting go live. Now we're up and running. I just, excuse me, I just spoke with Rogers by phone. He, if he doesn't make it in, it's, he appreciated being notified. And he may or may not be in the city. So that's the end of my message. Go live. Okay. Thank you for that extra step. We certainly want to make sure that everyone who's trying to attend can attend if they want. I just received a text from Senator Rogers as well. He said, he'll be on soon. So, thank you. So with that, it's a Senate natural resources committee. It's June 25. We're here to talk about bill h716. I want to start out with a thank you to suspense who it's rescheduled when our, our work earlier this meeting and we had a reschedule to today on two really quick things on housekeeping for the committee. Tomorrow we're going to be taking up the migratory bird bill. And also center parent you've been working on an amendment. Could you present that tomorrow please. I think we're we are short of time. Okay, great. Thank you. So we're going to turn to testimony. And I think I just wanted to say as we get started to things one we have limited time, even more limited now that we've lost some time to our electronic pickup. And on top of that, if we want to amend this bill, we're going to need to take additional testimony which will mean taking up the bill yet another day which is entirely fine and open to going either route. But if we do amend and need to take it up another day, and that will probably we're attempting to, I think we're all attempting to adjourn Friday two days from tomorrow. That would mean we would finish our work in August. So I'm happy to follow the will of MIDI, but I just want to say that if we're going to amend, we'll be working on this in August. Otherwise, I think there's a reasonable opportunity to finish today, not judging where we're going. And the last thing before we turn to our witnesses is that I think it's really fitting in a spring where we're considering past wrongs in our country that have led to problems that we're trying to address. And one of the areas that I think a sort of a deep and grievous wound in our country's history is the treatment of the original occupants of the land. So I'm glad that in one way, we are going to be looking at how we might acknowledge some of that history and make some progress in the right direction. So with that, I would like to turn to our Council, because we haven't formally hit the bill. So, Mr Kowsky, if you could just do the walkthrough of the bill we have in hand, please. All right. Each 716 and act related to avanaki hunting and fishing licenses. This is a very short bill. So section one, we're entitled 1042 55 license fees. Under sub C, a permanent or free hunting license may be secured on application to the department by a person qualifying as follows. A certified citizen of a Native American Indian tribe that has been recognized by the state pursuant to one VSA chapter 23 may receive a free permanent fishing license. However, if the person qualifies for a hunting license, a free permanent combination hunting and fishing license upon submission of a current and valid trial identification card. A certified citizen of the recognized tribes may submit their tribal identification card to the department and receive either a free permanent fishing license, or if they qualify for a hunting license, a free combination license. And then there's a report. So honor before January 15 2024, the commissioner efficient wildlife shall report to the House committees on natural resources fishing wildlife and the Senate committee on natural resources and energy, the number of licenses issued pursuant to this new section. And then the effective date is January 1 2021. Any commission committee questions on the bill itself. Thank you, Mr. Kowski. And with that, I'd like to welcome Chief Don Stevens to the committee and ask you to talk to us about the bill and your thoughts. Yes, first I'd like to thank the committee for taking this up because it's really important to our people and help with our food. For our families, especially during this time. And, and it's also the right thing to do. In order to help with time, I prepared a testimony that I did provide to to the committee but I'll read it quickly for those who may have not seen it and then I'll be available for questions. So I'd like to kind of put things into perspective. There are two separate issues here. There's our abanaki rights, which most people have agreed is the right thing to do and funding for the Fish and Wildlife Department. I agree that funding for the Fish and Wildlife Department. I agree with the funding the department because they they do an important role. And for the funding discussion is more appropriate under different bill like H.581, which is looking at ways to fund the department, which specifically you know addresses that issue. H716 I believe should only deal with the abanaki rights and our access to our food sources. I would like to take a moment to explain what implicit bias is and how it affected discussions around this bill so far, just as a teaching moment. That's all not not to offend anybody but just as a teaching moment. Bias refers to attitudes and stereotypes that affect understanding actions and decisions in an unconscious manner. So amendments that were provided in the house were submitted that would have divided our people in the categories and assert continued European dominance over our people. Using legislative power to determine which abanaki should have rights and which one shouldn't. Abanaki or abanaki no matter where they reside, all abanaki have retained our rights through prior agreements and it is not proper for the state to try to divide our families based on geographical location. Luckily this amended this amendment was not adopted. Insinuations that abanaki are some sort of social club where anybody can join to get a free license. That you know we're sovereign people in a sovereign government we cherish our heritage and one must show their lineage be a citizen of our tribe we don't just give our heritage away just for a free license. We had to prove ourselves to the state of Vermont to gain a recognition as a people. Even a European or other race had to go through this sort of process so we ask that you give us a little dignity on how we function as a tribal government, and that we just don't give our culture away. It's kind of a disappointing when people use fear and scare tactics during testimony to limit X abanaki rights by theoretical financial concerns as a distraction, especially when the same financial concerns are not expressed for white Europeans receiving free permanent licenses already. Some try to convince themselves and others that new abanaki licenses are uncontrolled losses of revenue to the fish and wildlife department, but in fact, it was never part of their budget to begin with, and it is unrealized revenue, not a loss. The legal current license holders would be lost and why the fiscal budget office estimated the $40,000 cost to the department, which the commissioner has already testified it is a minimal impact to his budget legislators will know the real revenue loss when the commissioner submits his report in 2024 and legislators can adjust budgets accordingly. Why is this important. Chief. Pardon me. Could you pause just for a moment. Rep. Lefave or Mr. Covey. If you could mute your mics we're getting a lot of noise. And it's getting hard to hear the chief speak please. Thank you. You want me to go on. Yes, please. Sorry. Why is this important. I think we can all agree that at least 95% of Vermont is white European and hence 95% of all seniors are also white European. Over 121,000 seniors currently qualify for permanent hunting and fishing licenses and 8500 to 10,000 people turn 66 every year based on the agency of human services website data. And the number of people who qualify for free hunting and fishing licenses each year are double that of our entire avanaki population. In 2018, the age for free hunting and fishing rights was dropped from age 70 to 66. So financial concerns over free licenses are not as big of a concern as being made out to be in our bill. The legislative body concentrates on the financial impact that seniors have on the fish well, the like department on a year to year basis, and how that impacts federal dollars. It is because the state draws down the minimum amount of federal funding as a default because we are a small state this has already been testified to in the house that it wouldn't affect federal funding. So we receive at least the same rights of senior citizens now enjoy and that they get their free permanent hunting and fishing licenses. I asked the Senate to follow the House's lead. I ask you to support and pass a six seven 16 without delay so the governor can sign it, or people have been waiting a long time for this moment. It should be a simple thing it's about our rights and the financial aspect should be looked at like, like I said with h 581. So I'm here to take any questions or answer any concerns. Thank you. Thank you very much. Any committee questions for Chief Steven. Thank you. Thank you for sharing the data, which I had before about how many licenses free licenses are issued based on age, just age alone. It's not so much issued. It's who is eligible, like the lab and ackee just because we have 4000 potential people don't mean all 4000 are going to be getting free licenses or whatever the case may be. Okay. Thanks again. I'm not sure if you can hear me. But if you can if you could just turn your microphone off until you're speaking with the committee that would be helpful because there seems to be a lot of noise. It's a little hard to hear. Okay, with that. Thank you. I don't have any questions for chief Stevens then we'll go on to my covey. Are you are here so you are up, sir. Mr. Chair, I'm just wondering, can the chief, are you able to stay with us during the rest of this in case any other questions arrive. Absolutely. Great. Thank you so much. Good morning, Mr. Covey. I see your tile on the screen. I don't know if you can hear us and floors yours. Yes, I can hear and see you. I'll keep it brief. It sounds like concept of these additions would be a detriment bill and I don't have any interest in that. I don't have any interest in slowing the bill. My thoughts with email that I sent were that, you know, for the commissioner's testimony in the house. Hunting trapping and fishing were all considered licenses and the rest of the thought as a license that made sense to include it in the same. You know, and I find it interesting that that the anti hunting crowd that were was not about the hunting portions but you know it's it's been made clear that there will be consulted if trapping comes up and as trapping is another form of hunting. I find that interesting because we're not giving the avenue anything with this. We're simply doing what was agreed upon long before. We were here, you know, we being you and I not Europeans in general. So I would submit that it's an interesting concept that folks outside the tribe would be consulted on whether or not the avanaki people should be allowed to trap. And I'll leave it at that. My thought on the adding the boat launch information or the boat launch language that Senator Rogers had drawn up was simply that I know there was some friction in the house about the potential costs to the department I felt that would offset it and possibly overcome it. I believe since it looks like these two conceptual amendments that slow down the bill. I think that's all I have to say is an explanation of what my thoughts were. I'll leave it to the committee but I don't have any interest in slowing down the progress of this bill or keeping the avanaki people from what's rightfully been theirs and and then kept from them for far too long at this point. Okay, any committee questions for Mr. Covey. I just wanted to, if I might just talk, have another question for the chief. Chief, are you. What did the original bill is is the trapping piece something that you and your people were advocating for, or was it the hunting and fishing piece. We were advocating for the hunting and fishing piece. Because, like I said, the trapping is a small part, and we know that it's very controversial and it will cause a lot of people to try to shelled it or the bill because of the fact that it is a controversial issue where hunting is more sustainable or subsistence type of, you know, activity. It's not that we don't want it. It's the fact is when is the proper time to address it. Right. I know the seniors citizens have the right to all big game tags and under the permanent license and also all, you know, trapping and all that stuff. You know, if the fish and wildlife department decides to put us in the same category as the seniors, except that we don't have to pay for it, then it's already something that maybe the department can do as a just just as the part of their policy. I don't know. But if we if we can't then I would think we would come back. And if we get our hunting and fishing licenses, we can always come back at it another time when it's when there's not the COVID situation and there's more time to. I appreciate that very much and I'm sorry if I missed that in your other comments so thank you. Well, and just for the committee, Commissioner Porter was already scheduled to be away. So that's why we spent we had a brief visit with him when he was before he left. And that was earlier in the week, but he's not able to be with us today to talk about, you know, sort of a deeper dive on hunting licenses provisions trapping etc center parent. I just want to say, and it kind of falls or Mike is I do wish we could give trapping in this bill understand trying to avoid controversy but I think it's sad that, you know, giving native Vermont, you know native people who are here before us right to do something they did before Europeans arrived is controversial but it's the way the building works. I don't think I think this is, I don't correct me if I'm wrong, Mr. Chair, it's just a question now of, if we were to move in that direction, we just have to take more testimony and it might not get out today or tomorrow. I think it's from who like we already allowed trapping very legal and I think we need to hear really from the commissioner again, I think, you know, to me I don't want to make those kinds of decisions without the commissioner and hearing from people and as the chief said, you know, whether you know folks like it or not it has been controversial so we do, we want to be inclusive in this conversation and the question is now do we move, move this piece or do we do we wait and that's a decision. No, I think we do move it but my point is this shouldn't be a controversial thing to move through this through our building. Sounds like we have agreement. Okay, thank you. And so, thank you then I'm looking back to our witness list. I don't see Attorney General Donovan here we do have a letter from him that members could consult. He said he couldn't be available until 1130. Right, right. So, thank you to our other witnesses if we're still here at 1130 then he can join us if we have finished our work for the day which is possible because we're 12. Then we have just written testimony. It's quite clear. All right, so with that I'd like to turn to representative Brennan. Good morning, representative Brennan. Thanks for joining us. Thank you. Thanks for having me. You know where we are in this conversation. What would you like to share with the committee please. Well, I, I was thinking you had questions for me. I didn't ask to take part in this but I'm happy to be here and I did have an amendment on in the on the House side on this bill. But as things go and and I research this a little more I had a long chat with the chief about two or three weeks ago now I think chief. You know, I've come to a place where I can accept this I was I had concerns about out of state tribal members getting a free license of Vermont but I think that's going to be a minimal impact. And after, and I had I had serious considerations about loss of revenue and it's not a huge loss of revenue it's it's minor, but I've been, I've been a little overzealous at times and protecting fish and wildlife revenues. And I did so with the Salisbury fish hatchery, which was scheduled to close and we brought the, the hunting and fishing community together to increase licenses back then so that's where I come from in this I in no way, and I'm sure some of the members of the, these different tribes might think I was trying to sabotage the bill, but it was all about funding for me and I think we can do that at a later date in another bill. As chief Stevens said earlier, it's going to take a little bit of that's fairly controversial in itself so I think that should probably remain separate at this time but I look forward to that discussion. And actually that's where I that's where I am. Ellen mentioned my amendment but I had not asked for that to be introduced and prefer that you don't consider it at this time that's not why I'm, I mean I'm here because I was asked by the chair to be here and be happy to answer questions. Okay, well thank you for those clarifications. And just for the sake of making it simple, I consulted with the commissioner was now joined the call. It was, was my understanding he was away on vacation but I appreciate his connecting with the meeting, even if he is away on vacation. Taking care of his baby, just so you know. Okay. A lot of us have assistance. So that that was how you ended up being invited I talked to the commission I said, I looked at the witness list and he said well here I'll help you. Look through the list and we drew up another list for today. So that's, that's the origin of that. I appreciate your work on the Salisbury history of fish hatchery. And, and your committee, this committee shares your concerns around making sure that we actively fund fish and wildlife for instance, there is a, an active 50 housing bill that will be making its way back to the house and amended h926. In it, there's a billback provision and help fund fish and wildlife for the, or refund them for the roughly $250,000 worth of work they do on behalf of active 50. So, we're sensitive that we to their budget as well and want to support a robust department. Okay, so thank you for that we won't be considering, as you suggest we won't consider that amendment and thank you for coming in and speaking with us. We hope you can stay on if you want. And then our last scheduled witness then, well not quite second last is representative the fave. Are you able to hear us and we're hoping we're going to be able to hear you. Okay, so the title is dark. So, I see miss Clark from the Attorney General's office. I don't know if you're being here suggest that the Attorney General is good morning. If you're being here tells us that close at hand is the Attorney General or you're here to provide testimony on his behalf. The Attorney General had another commitment which is why he wasn't available until 1130 so I was just watching on on the YouTube channel when I saw that you were thinking of moving that I just wanted to join and be available if anyone had any questions. I know he wanted to testify himself. He's been very enthusiastic and supportive of this bill, but I just wanted to make sure I was available in case there were any questions. We also just, we've already. Oh, sorry, Senator. I'll just note that we had provided once again the letter that we'd sent on the chair back in February I think when we initially had, I think we had a press conference about this bill and testified on the house side. So we recent that so it was available it just has a little bit of, you know, if you had legal questions, you wanted to make sure that we answered those there so those really haven't come up since then but I wanted to make sure that that you folks had that that letter handy if you needed it. Right. Thank you. And I think it's on our website and distributed to community members. All right, so if you can stand center parent. I just wanted to thank charity and the Attorney General for bringing this cause up I think it's really great. It's the one question I haven't and it kind of goes to representative. I think one of the questions is, have you guys thought of any ways potentially we could help offset revenue losses for the Fish and Wildlife Department without raising, you know, hunting fees on other folks I know the AG was pretty instrumental in this I don't know if you put any thought into that. Yeah. Oh, go ahead representative. Oh, were you was that for me. No is for the AG's office but okay. Yeah. I think this did come up on the house side. The Attorney General emphasized he felt that it was the right thing to do and that the financial impact appeared to be de minimis based on the numbers that Chief Stevens has, and also, I mean as the chief of reference earlier we do have a very, a broad category of folks who are who have eligibility which is the seniors category, and I, I'm not sure there was a lot of hand wringing over that. But it does feel like it's the right thing to do. And we, it's presumably not all 4000 would take advantage of this and we also have to keep in mind this isn't. I'm guessing the number although, at least when I was following us on the house side the commissioner had not been able to provide any numbers about this, but it's, you know, the fiscal impact of course is only to those folks who currently are paying for this, and then won't be, you know, many who take advantage are probably aren't paying for this right now so it's not an actual loss. Right. And I think, Senator parent are you alluding to the idea that there's a item, I don't recall the proper name of it, a litigation fund or something like that. Yeah, I was seeing if there was any way to you know the AG's office might be able to help support the department because I agree with Bill 100%. I'm not trying to slow it down just my mind I know we've seen trends where hunting licenses are going down the state of Vermont unfortunately and the senior provision I think they have to pay $60 for that for the rest of their lives so they still they pay something and I just, I just want to make sure hunting was an important part of me growing up I don't do it as much now but I plan to my son gets older and some of the best time I spent with my dad and other family members was in the woods it wasn't so much the hunting it was that time together so I just want to make sure we're protecting this for all Vermonters to as we move forward. You know it's real asset in real community building and I'm glad we're doing this, but didn't know if there's, you know, a way to use the litigation fund to help support our fish and wildlife group. So I can't speak directly to litigation fund in that it's our assistant AG Josh diamonds who handles the budget stuff from our office but you know we put our budget together for what we need but we actually, you know produce a lot of dollars because of litigation and settlements that we have and, of course, the appropriations committees get to decide how that's spent so I just, you know, make that note that it really is the appropriations committee especially because this wouldn't be involved at our budget wouldn't be involved. Okay. Right. Senator champion. Well, Senator, can you have anything more. Okay, thank you. Thank you. Senator came in. This is a question actually for representative Brennan, hopefully, do you know, Pat, did this go to another committee I'm just thinking about timing in the house did this. Was it just natural or did it have to go to a probes or anywhere else. It did go to ways and means briefly we took a look at it. And, yeah. A light path so we should probably try to if we can kick it out soon this morning so that we can see it in finance this afternoon if need be. Okay. I. Yeah. Well I was just going to say I don't know if that's necessary. I mean it's, it flew by us so so quickly that it's, it's in the ramifications are so minute that I, I really don't think. I mean I'm not going to tell you how to operate your committee by any means but I don't think that's necessary. Well, so I can, you know, the one other way to analysis that I contact chair Cummings directly talk to her about it. As I saw the numbers, I think Christian Porter estimated, perhaps a tax expenditure of something in the order of $30,000 against a $23 million budget that's one 10th of 1%. So, I don't want to, I don't want to minimize that is real money, but it's the scale of it is certainly modest enough that maybe you'll have a quick visit with finance and keep on moving would be my hope. I know there are many people who would like to see us be able to send this to the governor's desk before we adjourn for the summer. So I'm trying to honor that while also making sure that we don't preclude any other considerations that people want to put on the table while we're gathered today. Worst case scenario, I think as long as we voted out this morning. Yeah, she wants to see it we're meeting this afternoon. Right. Okay. And so, Commissioner Porter. You've been listening in. I don't know if you had any comments you wanted to share be. If you wanted to. We've spoken already but you've heard this morning some of this morning's conversation I don't know if you want to say anything about. I think the question before us is, do we stick with the bill we have, or do we try to make changes. I'm sorry, and I apologize if may chimes in here. I was watching your, your, your meeting on on YouTube because I'm on baby duty today, but I thought you might have questions for me so I joined. No, as you know, we're supportive of the bill and and would like to see it move forward. Senator parent made the point I was going to clarify there that seniors do pay $60 for a permanent license, but no we would like to see the bill move forward and have to answer any questions or to answer any questions if it does go to the finance committee this afternoon. Thank you. Okay, thank you. So it is my sense that let me check with the committee that there's an interest in moving the bill and the way and in a timely way and and the way that we do that is to not amend the bill. And so let me just see if my colleagues agree. Our people in let me straw poll who's who's in favor of moving the bill as currently before us. I would like to motion. Mr chair to concur with the house bill and advance this. Okay. Is there any further discussion. Okay. Then I would ask, well, I see council. Do you have anything you want to offer before we proceed to a vote. You have heard a lot about the bill today I wanted to just add you your committee does hear about fish hunting and fishing licenses pretty regularly but this just to reiterate my testimony in the house. We're not creating a new program at all. They have to follow the requirements of obtaining a hunting license. So that's not changing. And they will have to abide by all of the regular laws governing hunting and fishing so just adding this to a new cat as a new category of available licenses. And I did want to add briefly. So that on licenses are not included. So there will be some fees need to be that will need to be purchased for the second archery license, a moose. The antlerless deer and additional water, waterfowl stamps, and potentially the other big game license so it's where there are some things that will need to be purchased in addition. Okay. So why did the house decide to go there. I guess I didn't understand that. I mean, it's something we can work on later on in the process of trapping but I'd soon let them get allow native folks in the abnaki to get all of all their hunting and fishing requirements, free of cost. They did take testimony and discuss it at length, I think, in order to be sensitive to some of the budget concerns this would be sort of a modest amount that would need to be paid for the additional add ons and would provide some revenue to the department. Okay. I'm assuming that as a matter of policy if this passes anyway as a permanent license, it would be the same as a senior citizens that they get. I mean they get a combination honey and fishing rights the archery the big game. They don't have to pay for moose and second year tag and Turkey and that stuff. So I'm assuming that as a matter of policy that we would fit into the same category as the senior citizens. And I believe that the license fee for the senior citizen is a $60 one time paint it's not like every year they have to pay $60 I think it's a one time. The only difference is we wouldn't pay that one time fee. But I would hope we'd be put in the same category in the same rights as the senior citizens do. That's all I'm saying so we still get we still get to be able to get our dear and you know I mean we can always go back to the till for other things later, but at least get us the same rights as senior citizens have. Anyway, I just want to say that. Okay, thank you. So, Council, can you just reconfirm for the committee that that is it, or providing the equivalent benefit. Yes. Okay. All right. With that, I'd say is there any further committee discussion. Senator Rogers asked me if I shoot him a text he can make it for the vote so I just want to, if we can pause for 30. Yeah, I sent him a text and I've called him. Thank you, Jude. I'm here. Can you hear me? Yes, we can. Senator Rogers, can you go to video because when we vote we also have to have video. Yes, I've got a little bit spotty reception but I think it'll carry. All right, there you are we see you. So with that, then, is there all the role. So the motion is to concur with the House proposal of each 716. If there's no further discussion, I'd ask the clerk to call the roll please. Senator McDonald. Yes. Senator parent. Yes. Senator Rogers. Yes. Senator Campion. Yes, Senator Bray. Yes. Yes, it was 0500. What anyone like to report the bill. Okay, I'm happy to if no one else wants to. I thought maybe this was something that was important to Senator Rogers in particular but I know he's. John, do you want to report this or do you want me to. Yeah, it is but I don't feel like I'm properly prepared to. No, I would I would assume you did is I, I don't feel like I have the time to give it its due diligence. Okay. All right, so Senator. Thank you. Thank you. All right. So we are that was really it for business for today. So again tomorrow we will turn to the migratory bird bill. Thank you. Senator parent, if you can tee up our amendment on 926. That would be very good. Thank you. You mind just sending me anything you've got any little thing you might have on this bill. I know it's brief, but if you've got anything just email it to me. That'd be great. Anything that you think I need to know. I'm not sure if you're going to send that to the Senate secretary ate that so I'm not sure if Jude are you involved with that process. And Chief Stevens just a moment we'll get to you. I'm not, I'm not allowed to bring bills to understand but what's the prop what do we do from here you you you send it I believe to the secretary with the vote count and the bill. So Ellen, do you send me the bill and then I send it. Yes, that's great. Thank you. Thanks everybody. Clean copy from you to the Senate secretary was reporter and the vote and then you're just concurring so yeah simple. Okay, thank you. The other thing is so I will reach out to send cheercomings and have a discussion with her about it and see how we might facilitate keeping this thing moving right along. All right, Chief Stevens, you had something you wanted to share. Yeah I just want to say on behalf of that. I know and I'll he again had a minimum and they have an ackee people we really appreciate you, helping, helping us with our rights and and and passing this at a committee I'm hoping it passes the Senate and gets to the governor's desk, but I just want to say that I really, really appreciate. There's nothing else you know that you made a difference in the entire disadvantage population to help us. So you can be proud of that and I want to thank Senator Brennan for also having our discussions and understanding where we're coming from so I just want to really say, thank you, because it means a lot. Thank you. Thank you for coming in and and thank you to everyone for your good humor and flexibility in terms of convening and reconvening and helping us move this along a timely way. So with that, unless any other, if there's no other committee members wanting to check in on anything, we have completed our business for the day and we are adjourned. Mr. Chair. Yes, sir. Not on this bill just reporting the House climate bill and I just I don't have a list of witnesses at my disposal and I don't know if Jude has a list she might be able to email me so I can at least refer to the many, many people came in to testify in that bill. Okay, or on that issue. I can email you the list that's in the internet, for sure. Thank you very much. Anything else before we wrap up. Okay, so thanks again everyone. We are adjourned.