 So I'm your moderator with China Media Group. I'm Li Sichuan, and also with the forum's YGL community. So China itself is actually one of the largest importers of soft commodities. So as such, it has some relevance in this subject matter from the consumer's standpoint of view. And as for our panel speakers today, I'm very excited to introduce you to Mr. Carlos Noble, who's the director of research at the Brazilian Academy of Sciences. He is probably the world's best known Amazonian scientist, and it's his first time here in Davos. Welcome. And we have, so from my left, we have Cardinal Peter Turksen, the prefect of the Vatican Dicastery for Promoting Integral Human Development. Welcome. And Mr. Mark Engel, Chief Supply Chain Officer from UniLiver, who represents the business end of the solution. And we have Miss Hindu Umaru Ibrahim, President of Association for Indigenous Women and Peoples of the Chat. And also, thanks to Gabriel O'Donnell from Carnegie Mellon, whose team helped to make all these great visualizations we're gonna be seeing. So put all these maps and data points together. So Mr. Noble will start by giving us a visual presentation to put things into context and also as a backdrop and baseline for today's discussion. Thank you. Good afternoon to all. I went to the Amazon as a young college student at the age of 19, in 1971. The Amazon was completely undisturbed. I fell in love with the Amazon and decided to dedicate my career to the Amazon. I've been working in the Amazon for over 40 years. Tropical forests are the biological heart of our planet. They are home to millions of plant and animal species. They store hundreds of billions of carbon, contributing to climate stabilization. And every year, they remove also a few billion tons of carbon. So they are essential for the sustainability of our planet. In particular, tropical forests exist where there is plenty of rainfall, rains all year round, very short dry season, Amazon, Ecuador, Africa, Southeast Asia, and Madagascar, Atlantic Rainforest, and Central America. The Amazon is the tropical forest, largest tropical forest still in existence. 50% of the Amazon forest is under indigenous territories and protected areas. That's a very important element in maintaining the forest. However, since 1970s, the development model of all tropical countries or most tropical countries was really to bring commodity production. In the Amazon, beef and soy, and you can see there the deforestation advancing, the green areas are the protected areas, and you can see in those areas, the forest is still standing. The Amazon as a whole, you can still very protected. 17% of the forest has been cleared. You can see the deforestation from the southeast and also from the west. The Amazon is producing mostly those two commodities, beef and soy. You can see these are the lines showing the trade from the Amazon, going beef exports mostly to Asia and to Europe, and also soy, which is mostly animal feed. And those are really the two basic products, drivers of deforestation in the Amazon. Now, if we go across and we go to the Southeast Asia, then we see deforestation in Southeast Asia is more than 50% of the forest have been cleared. In particular, we can see this example from 1980s, Borneo. You can see there the forest shrinking very rapidly. And that deforestation, the main driver of deforestation in Southeast Asia, particularly Indonesia is palm oil. So this is the export mostly to Europe and also to Asia of palm oil, particularly for biofuels and a number of everyday use products. You see in Indonesia, the very large scale palm oil plantations, that is the main driver of deforestation, a driver that's still present and threatens the remaining forest. What you see here is a satellite image of fires, vegetation fires, and you can see vegetation fires very traditional in tropical forests. This is being used for, I would say, thousands of years and still practice in most of the agricultural in the tropics, but of course we are now in an era of climate change, more severe droughts, and warmer temperatures. And therefore, the forest is under a great risk. So one area that we could act is transforming tropical agriculture not to use fires anymore. We are going to diminish the risks. And last year in the Amazon, you can see here this big smoke from forest burning. It's not really the standing forest. It was a deforested area set a fire, smoke clouds. And this illustrative figure, it's carbon monoxide from satellites, carbon monoxide produced by fires and you see this big blob emanating from the Amazon. So also hypothetically, this is a hypothesis, what might happen to the Amazon forest, most of the Amazon forest could be turned into a savanna, a dry savanna, we call risk of savannization. We are very close to that tipping point. If we exceed 20, 25% of the total deforested area, we are at 17%. Very likely, most of the Amazon, 50, 60 up to 70, become a dry savanna, even if we stop deforestation. And we are very close to that tipping point. We have to really to be very careful. So the question one may ask is that, is there any other possibility? I mean, do we have always to keep the tropical forest as producing only commodities? You replace thousands of species by grass and cattle or by palm oil, by palm. So let me give you this example from the Amazon. This is Asai Berry. Asai Berry was a local product until 20 years ago. It has reached global markets. There are over 50 products made of Asai Berry, food, beverage, cosmetics, nutritive pills, even drugs. And they bring back to the Amazon economy $1.5 billion a year. That is benefiting almost 400,000 people improving their livelihoods in Brazil only. So this is one product. The forest has so many products. So the question I pose is whether there is another possibility? Can we think of a different way? Can we think of a completely different bioeconomy? Let's call it standing forest bioeconomy. And what we see in the film there is the so-called agroecological systems. Agroecological systems, they maintain most of the ecological ecosystem services. Carbon, they maintain a lot of biodiversity but they have more species, more individual species of economic value like Asai Berry, cocoa, Brazil nuts. And a very large number. They can even provide for sustainable logging for producing of vegetable oils, feeding a number of industries. So I think it's really time for us to think. Asai Berry in Brazilian Amazon gives the family type of producers, small landholders, five to 10 times more profits than cattle. So this is very likely to be a powerful bioeconomy with the forest standing, really drawing on the rich biodiversity. So that's the message I would like to convey to you and really to think of this new bioeconomy as one way to save the tropical forests of the planet. Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Mr. Nobley, thanks for your research and also the wonderful visualization. I think that helped us to understand the magnitude of the problem and also immense sense of urgency. And then please join us for a conversation to talk about how we can possibly mitigate and even reverse some of these events that you talked about. I want to start by asking Cardinal Turksen. I understand that you were actually behind the drafting of the first encyclical, which is a Catholic teaching document of the highest order to formally articulate the Pope's position on climate change back in 2015. And I think this is the first time such a secular matter can become part of a Catholic teaching, but how do you think this moral duty can help with accountability and enforceability when it comes to reforestation efforts, especially in regions with high Catholic influence, such as Latin America? Thank you. It's working now. Does he need a mic? Okay. Or we can pass it. We can share it. It's working. Okay. So I want to thank you and thank you for organizing this event. Indeed, I want to thank you, from the noble, for presenting this situation to us. For me, I think it's a great honor for me coming from the tropics myself. This brings memories of growing up, how we used to also live in a tough option, we used to gather. These days, we don't see them around anymore. Most of our toys, most of our playing instruments were all stopped that we gathered from the forest. And then what the forest is that it's not dealt with simply by planting or doing new trees. The biodiversity is replicated by, therefore, talking about how this got the attention as an ecological issue for the Vatican and for the church. In that regard, it caught the attention of the Orthodox faith before it started talking about these ecological issues way before the Vatican came out with this and so it got louder to see. But it is to draw attention to the net, we call the issue the cry of the... So the issue gets addressed in this document of the Pope. The patriarch Bartolomu had called the abuse of the environment a sin. Pope Francis calls it a cry that is coming from the earth, coming from biodiversity and elements of which we need to listen to. And because within this area, as in the case of the Amazon, people also live the indigenous, the Pope says both two things crying to us, the cry of the earth and the cry of the poor. Inviting us to consider the indigenous lives of the people who live in there. So that's what it is. And talking about religion, it's for us very simple and basic. There's no way that religious people can talk about God, love and respect God without respecting what God has created. They two go together. There's no way you can convincingly tell any religious body or any religious person to love God and believe in God when you rubbish or abuse, treat, have passed badly, God's handiwork. Because in the Christian and the biblical scriptures, creation revealed God. They talk about God and they reveal God too. They practice practitioners of the religion. So they two go hand in hand. So the interest of the Vatican or the Pope in, paying attention to issue of the environment. So the forest and all of that is just that. It's just that it has to do with the wellbeing of our common home and has to do with also the wellbeing of those who live in there and essentially because an expression also of our faith in the God creator. Thank you very much. And also you made a very valid point in talking about the relationship between indigenous people and also faithful groups with forests. We'll come back to that later. And the next question is to Mr. Mark Engels, who's the chief supply chain officer from Unilever. So the business side of the equation. I got this data from your company website. Around 2.5 billion people a day use at least one Unilever product. So made from raw materials sourced from around the world. And I wonder what portion of that is sourced sustainably right now? Well, it's very hard to say. We sell 150 billion units a year. But you... Some contain, let's say, ingredients that are linked to deforestation, some not. But if... But I think seven years ago, you set a goal of meeting 100% by 2020. Yeah, on agricultural materials. Okay. So where are we? Palm oil, we haven't announced yet for 2019, but we're very close to 100%. That's good to know. I think it's 97, if I'm not speaking out of turn. On soy, it is over 80%, and we hope to be there as well. But this is also where my frustration is, if I may be for one minute, because our company, and I've been personally involved for more than 10 years in this journey now, have been doing a lot to stop deforestation. Many people say Unilever's been the company that has done most. But 10 years later, you just have to, when you see the picture that Carlos is showing, you just have to say, yeah, maybe you won a few battles, but we are losing the war against deforestation. And if I look at our company, I think we probably spent half a billion to a billion euros to drive this. And so it's really frustrating to see. So I'm frustrated. I'm scared. Why am I scared? Because we're all talking about demand management. But when, if and when people go out of petroleum in, because they want natural chemicals in their products, because they want to go out of plastic, because they want to go out of petroleum fuel, guess where people are going? We get more pressure on the land use. And so I think we need to find, we've basically said three things that we need to do because the solutions is very much like Carlos is saying. But I think what business needs to do is, A, the use of technology needs to be advanced. We get satellite pictures now every seven days. It's almost real time. We need to move from observing the problem that it happened into what are the interventions that we can make life. The second one is the inclusion of smallholders. There are half a billion smallholders around the world. They are the stewards of the land and we will never stop deforestation if we don't find a way to include half a billion smallholders sustainably. And the last one is we need to work better together between governments and NGOs and not only in policy and regulation, but also in enforcement, I think. Yeah, speaking of that, this collective effort, I think nine years ago here in Davos, you delivered together with 16 other big names. I think you announced a global partnership on sustainable sourcing. So can you give us an update? Yeah, look, I mean, at the end of the day, we need to make this the decade of delivery, the DOD, the 2020 to 2030. It needs to be the decade of delivery. We know that we cannot do that alone. So these global partnerships are incredibly important. These kind of problems, we've seen it's nice that we have 100% sustainably sourced palm oil, but if it doesn't change the deforestation, obviously it doesn't change the outcome for the planet. So the reason why we're driving more of these coalitions, the only thing is we have been doing a lot of coalitions and it hasn't led to the result that we wanted, which is why we said we want different kind of action in the coming 10 years. And that's what we're trying to achieve here in Davos. Just one quick question, because just now before the session starts, I was talking to Justin Adams, who's the director of TFA and he actually made a point that in the past there were individual actions made. And for this coming decade there, we really need this collective action, but how exactly do we make it happen? What are the barriers? Just very briefly. Well, I think we need to be focused more in driving the systemic change rather than sorting out our own house. So I think that many of us have been looking at, well, how can we sort out our own house? And I think to Justin's point, and that's what we hopefully will be discussing on Thursday, I think, if I'm not mistaken, is to how do we basically drive a common coalition that really starts to change, let's say deforestation. And Ali, Justin is a good friend and partner and I'm sure he will lead a very good session on Thursday. Great, thank you. And, Hindu, you just came out from another session about the climate change. It's definitely the hottest topic this year. And I think your native chat is, in fact, already experiencing some of these consequences that Mr. Noble just talked about in terms of climate and also rainfall patterns. Can you just share with us about what it's like to the people in chat and also your perspective? Thank you. To share that with you, I'm coming to Carlos's presentation earlier, just when he showed us how the forests are burning in every and each places. And how the deforestation without burning also, it's causing all the forests lose. So foreign indigenous peoples and for the person coming from chat like me, when we see the deforestation, the forest burning is not only about the economy. It's not only about the commodities. It's about the life of peoples. It's about those who are living in the panning of these forests. It's not just though we are taking the commodities and going and selling it out, but these commodities, it's us. So we take our food from these forests. We take our medicine from these forests. We live in these forests, it is our home. That's why when we say our home is burning, you say it's not like a anecdote or a way of talking. It's our life, real home that is burning. So in chat, when you take the example of the climate change impact, you see all the natural resources that disappear. You have water, you have the soil and you have all the trees. And then the words that people are not talking about is not only the trees and then the lift of the trees, but all the ecosystem that's going with it, the birds who are on these trees, the insects who are on those trees and all the wind that they are changing, the weather that they are giving to peoples to live. So the value out of the forest, this is the most important we need to think about it. If we lose a forest, we are not just losing one thing that making the economy. We are losing all our ecosystem. And then that sent me to tell you the impact on our biodiversity lose. We have more than 60% of the species that we are losing. So for indigenous peoples and then people like me in chat, I'm seeing with my lifestyle, I mean, lifetime 30 years ago, the kind of insect that disappeared, the kind of birds that disappears and disappear forever. Why is disappearing? Because those forests are cut it down because they cannot get the ecosystem where they live on it. So imagine for the business, you always protect your partners because if you have your commodity, he have to buy from you. That's how it's happened. That's why you are calling it partners. And then for indigenous peoples, the forest is our partners. When it's burning or it's cutting, so our partners is dying. Our business cannot be any more sustainable. So our life cannot be any more sustainable. So that's how we are experiencing it every day. So you have traditional associations and also deep understanding of the forest. How do you think indigenous people should be involved in very top decision making and also actual reforestation efforts? So business need to change. It's not only like government sit there and make the policies and business talk among themselves and take the place if other they have to the forest here to replace it with palm oil of others. And then indigenous peoples stay there in the land. It's have to change. It's have to be a partners, all the peoples coming together. And I think we have a great example that started from the Tropical Forest Alliance 2020 as a first one coming in the COP 21 and saying like, okay, we have to be open. We have to include everyone and each and take the target by 2020 zero the first session. That was a good initiative. But ending up, we come on 2020, there is not zero the first session. Why? Because the proper role was not given. So indigenous peoples, local communities need to be into the decision making. So that's the new value of the agenda of Tropical Forest Alliance for the next 2020 and up. So how we can be all as leaders and coming sitting down together and taking the decisions. And going further, business is needing us. We are not need business because we do not depend from the end of the month of salary of the business. We are not depending from the supermarket that they are feeding to go and buy our commodity or feed. We do not have cars in our communities to take care of it. So they need us. Why? They need us because we understand better this ecosystem. We know how to restore it. Indigenous peoples got a unique traditional knowledge and wisdom to restore the ecosystem. How we know it because we live for centuries with this environment. Technology, we just saw it now in a concrete examples. Our mic was in interference and it's not working and we need to shift. But the traditional knowledge do not have that. It's not failing us because we live on it for thousands of years. And those knowledge are the most sustained who can help us to restore the forest. And those knowledge, business needed because if we are partners with them, we can give them this information to do it. We cannot do that in the biggest scale. We can do it in the smallest scale, in every ecosystem because our knowledge is ecosystem best. So let us be partners and we can rule the world and reforest all the tropical forest places. Indeed, Mr. Angol, you want to comment on that? No, I'm absolutely. I mean, it's not the first time we speak and we are absolutely aligned on that. This is what we need to do. But there's also in this, about a billion trees, I think. And but we also need to think about stop cutting the existing forest down because it just simply doesn't work to only do replacement and so need to be very, but we are protecting as well. And so we are fully aligned on that. Great. And also before, just a second. Thank you. I really appreciate that. And then I appreciate the relation that we are having on all the tropical forest alliance and how we can change the business. But one player in the business needs to be there. China. When we talk about the China need to be because when we talk about the climate change, so it's not only the carbon, it is also the forest, it is also the peoples. And luckily 2020, we are going to have the biodiversity cop in China, but yet as indigenous people, we do not know the clear position of China are how much forest they are going to protect, to restore, not only in China because they are really champion in China doing it, but outside China where they're investing. I'm coming from Africa. I know how China is really investing in all our forest, but how are they going to take the lead? We want the China to be a lead on it and then to be with indigenous peoples, to be with peoples, to restore the ecosystem, but to protect the forest and the peoples together. So that will be a new era to play a big leadership role. Exactly, I agree. Actually before the session, so I actually did some background research about China's initiatives, actually China partnered with the TFA starting from last year. And also it's rolling out initiatives like the Chinese Sustainable Meat Declaration, sustainable soy trade system, and also big Chinese players like the Kafka, they also rolled out the country's first sustainability loan I think earlier last year. So I want to direct this question back to Mr. Engel again. So being a very experienced supply chain manager, also you are named number one supply chain executive in Europe. So what's your advice to your Chinese counterparts and also when they're trying to find the most accountable solution? Look, the reason why I'm very excited about China is A, from our market research, we know that the Chinese consumer deeply, deeply cares about climate change. The young consumers, they want brands with purpose. They want brands that are good for the planet, both on the social and the climatory side. And so the consumer need is definitely there. We also know that we have a government in China that when they intervene, and they have intervened many times in climate action around pollution or whatever, that it's a very, very effective intervention. And so China for me has all the ingredients, both as a consumer of commodities, because it's a big consumer of commodities, but also of an owner of a big land bank. I can see that coming together. And I think for, let's say, my colleagues in China just realize that your consumers want it because at the end of the day, most of our businesses are in it for consumers. And when consumers want it, consumers need to demand it, change will happen. We see that everywhere around the world. Brands, younger people, generation-wide, generations that are not buying brands anymore if you can't assure them that these brands are not doing some form of good for the planet or for the people. And so I believe that this tipping point will come. Great, but I think it's a very complex issue. There are so many other different aspects, like the traceability, or when it comes to decision-making, maybe sometimes food safety or other issues comes before sustainability, but I think it's a positive sign that we see the Chinese government is making all these pushes. But then before we talk more about that, I want to come back to Mr. Nobley because just now you said something quite interesting. Gabriel, could you please help us just pull out the map about export of beef and soy from Africa? Yes, I think that's the map. And also you talked about the productivity of cattle. In fact, in South America, sorry, the productivity of cattle is actually very low and also the profitability is probably just one-tenth or one-fifth of that of something like a Siberia, those native plants. Then what's the incentive behind all those very active cattle activities, cattle farming? One has to go back to 1970s to see that the driver of deforestation initially in Brazil and the military government, many Amazonian countries also in Southeast Asia and some African countries had nothing to do with, market demands. It was really land possession. The military in Brazilian government, they were afraid of losing sovereignty, particularly they were afraid of US greed towards the Amazon. That's 1970. So they started this driver towards deforestation. Really, if you scrutinize the economic model, it's very, very low value. So it was not to make profits. In fact, I mean, all over the tropics, the tropical population continues to be very poor, poor and vulnerable, all over, 50 years later. So this is really a model that we have to stop immediately to drive deforestation to zero, certainly for climate, for biodiversity, to restore forests for sure, but also because it makes sense economically. And that's why we are proposing in Brazil and in the Amazon what we call Amazonia 4.0, which is really to bring as well inexpensive as they are today to empower people. It's not a technocratic model. It's not extractivist model. It's to empower people. And one very good example last month, the Anomami indigenous group in the Northern Amazon bordered between Brazil and Guiana, Venezuela, they show the production of chocolate. They are producing chocolate made of a variety of cocoa, plant there are thousands of different variants in the Amazon, they are making in their village, they are making and I hope it will reach markets. So it shows that modern technologies can eventually empower communities, local communities really to merge traditional knowledge with modern technologies and constructs a very vibrant new economy. Before we come back to technology, you mentioned about this inherent tension between reforestation efforts and for example, access to resources, land rights or also the livelihood of people. And then today we actually have the deputy minister, Carlos da Costa from the Ministry of Economy of Brazil sitting in the audience. So could you please quickly respond to Mr. Nobles point? Well, thank you for the space here that you're opening to us and I'm representing the Brazilian government here. Most has been said about Brazil and I think we have failed in communicating what we are doing. And this is why I'm here to talk. I could spend here time discussing data and forecasts what has been shown here about Savannah so this is certainly not the mainstream in the scientific community. I could spend time here talking about burning forests. So most of what we know is that it has not been above cyclical fluctuations. It has not gone up. Most of the pictures that almost all of the pictures that have been shown in the media are from 2013. They're not recent. But instead of that, I came here to say that we face it really seriously the challenges to maintain the tropical forest. Not only because of climate change and here I really agree with Cardinal Turksen. It's God's work. We need to protect it. And we need also to protect the people as Hindu sad who live there and want to have their ways of living protected. And how to do that? Well, Brazil has succeeded in protecting 83% of our tropical forests. 83% of other country has been able to do that. Actually there has been deforestation but in the last two decades we have been much above the targets from several international agreements. And we have been able to do that with some measures one of them by reducing poverty in that region. We believe that the number one enemy of the environment is poverty. And we have actual empirical data about that every time there is an increase in poverty there is an increase in deforestation. Today 95% of deforestation in Brazil is illegal, is a crime and it has been organized by organized crime. It has nothing to do with agricultural production. It has nothing to do with cattle production and we have empirical data about that. In fact, Brazil has one of the most stringent laws against deforestation. So we need to tackle crime. So one of the things in spite of our having a very tight budget today we have increased the number of people who are fighting illegal which is 100%, almost 100% deforestation in the Amazon. These are people who are committed to doing that and we're spending money to that. Number two, we need to develop the Amazon in a sustainable way, in a sustainable way. So the Amazon free trade zone, era of influence has 96% of original forest and that proves our stance. But instead of producing cars, motorcycles and electronic equipment we want to be the center of sustainable business in the world. So for instance, Love Beauty and Planet is a brand by Unilever. We would very much like that it more and more to be produced in the Amazon by using sustainable sources of energy as most of us. When you buy a glass from Brazil you are contributing to avoiding climate change because most of our energy comes from sustainable origins. Thank you very much Deputy Minister. We understand that you have a lot to say on this subject matter but I just have to cut you off right now but then I'm sure after the session there's also there's another Amazonian session tomorrow so I welcome every one of you to join us but thank you very much for your comment. And Mr. Nobley was actually taking notes while you were speaking. So do you have any quick comments on what just our Deputy Minister just said? Well, I mean, in fact Brazil succeeds in creating this global sustainability business in the Amazon. I mean that would be great for the planet, for Brazil, for all Amazonian countries and that many of us from the scientific community we have been asking for that really. Also policies to support this new mode of development and yes, it's most of deforestation is illegal biomass burning is man-made and illegal but still unfortunately all of that end up as being grazing land for cattle farms. After the illegality cycle, Congress passes a new law and makes it legal. So we are seeing that cycle. We hope, I hope it will stop but we are seeing that cycle for 30 years in the Amazon. And also I think Deputy Minister made another point about developing the Amazon actually Gabriel can you please help pull out another map on the screen? I think it's about the protected areas in the Amazon or do you mind just elaborate it briefly? I think these green areas are protected areas, right? The red dots or Noble, you want to make a point? Yes, the green areas are both protected areas, indigenous territories and the conservation units and you can see the dark green which is forest is mostly in those areas and this is really the most protected tropical forest in the world, all of the Amazon countries, 47% of 6.2 million square kilometers. But we see some red dots, right? Like so the red dots are places that are under risk. Yeah, you can see here for instance in central southern Amazon, there's a shingu indigenous territory completely surrounded by deforestation and deforestation is encroaching there. You see it's still green, still protected but not only deforestation but climate change also presents a challenge to maintaining all those protected areas. I think there's another map from Indonesia. Yeah, I think similar case is being made. So is there a case made for reforestation? And also I think Borneo is still intact but then we want to extend that. So is there a case made to extend the forestation? Most of the tropical countries in their commitments to the Paris agreement, they made commitments of large-scale reforestation, all tropical countries. But still we have a problem which is financing that. In Brazil, it's very inexpensive to restore forest, $1,000 per hectare. This is really very little. But still when you look at the scale of the tropical forest, we can reforest 1 million square kilometers easily in the next 10 years but that would cost over $100 billion. So still, and I hope Davos will address that issue, how to finance reforestation. And Cardinal, just very briefly, you mentioned this just now. How do we work with indigenous groups and also religious groups while designating those protected areas to really be accommodative to their culture and their livelihood? Okay, so Ibrahim said a lot about indigenous wisdom that needs to be protected and taken on board with your permission or backtrack one bit and come to this. So the threat to the forest, essentially, you can scan the globe. The threat to the forest invariably is not due to indigenous population, they are use of forest material. A lot of people talk about indigenous people using the resources of the forest for fuel. They deal with only twigs and small things. They're not the ones who fell the big trees. They don't have the means to do it. So the depletion of the forest come from economic concerns, which are either lumbering, as the minister said, illegally done, or mining. Okay, to get to the ore, you deforest, you take the top soil and then get to the ore. So mining also helps in depleting a lot of forest areas. This is the case in Ghana. Okay, the threat to our forest is from mining. So commercial activity, three lumbering, timber, export and all of that. Mining, which requires a lot of depletion of forest. Some governments in the past did therefore make a legislation. If you want to mine any ore, do a shaft binding. So you leave the surface protected and untouched. These days, that is the diminution. And then- I think, sorry, I just have to chime in and just make one last question, also relevant to whatever you just said, so about technology. So technology plays a vital role. So Mr. Engel, I want you to answer this very briefly. So a lot of this dominant technology are still very scattered and small. How do we bring them to scale? The individual components all exist. I think the biggest challenge is to bring the data together with the imagery and put the data science and the data analysis. And I think it's easy to crack if all the parties are willing to work with each other. And I think that is the big challenge that we have. I've seen it on a micro scale that it can work. And it's all there. We just need to work together to get, let's say, the ownership, the data analysis of what the images are saying. You can literally see trees being felled now every seven days. So if we want to do something about it, it's all there. So again, collective action needs to be made. Thank you very much all the panelists for such insightful conversation on this very complex issue. So given the time constraints, we have to wrap up. But then just very quickly, we have Justin Adams here, who's the director of TFA, which is the multi-stakeholder platform that helps to prevent commodity driven, commodity driven deforestation. So if you want to be involved, and also Hindu is on the steering committees, you can go talk to them after the session. And thank you very much for coming to our session. Thank you.