 Good afternoon, and welcome back to another episode of likeable science here on ThinkTech Hawaii. I'm your host, Ethan Allen. With me today in the ThinkTech Studio is Ray Tsuchama, if I got that right. That's correct. Ethan, I'm glad to be here talking on science, technology, innovation with you because those are very vital topics for the state of Hawaii and our society. Exactly. But they're not only vital, they're likeable too. They should be fun. They should be celebrated. They should be enjoyed by everyone, right? I mean, people should enjoy doing science. People shouldn't be scared of it, right? Well, I think you're correct that there's a disconnect between people who are top scientists as if they're not real ordinary people. And another disconnect that these people can't be from the state of Hawaii. They can't be from Kalihipalama or they can't be from Nanakulia Wainan. And so I think that's a greater service that you're doing is to make science fun and accessible to everybody that it does play a major role in our lives but they're done by, achieved by ordinary people. Yeah. I mean, it's increasing day by day. There's more and more things where we are being asked to make evidence-based decisions on the course of our country, the course of our state, the course of our individual lives. And without some background in science, how do you make those decisions? It's truly frightening how I think the state of sort of science literacy in this country actually and in the state. Yeah. Well, you're correct that these waves of focusing on science technology in our history, the last one was the great Sputnik Scare by Russia in the late 50s. And that sparked a race to get into putting an astronaut around the earth and then later on, the great goal by President Kennedy to send a manned spacecraft and land on the moon, which is unbelievable, stating that in 1960, 61, and it was achieved in 1969, barely eight years afterwards. So if you do have an objective based on science and engineering, you could achieve that. Right. Indeed. I mean, if you look at the Human Genome Project, that basically, that was achieved basically on time and on schedule, they really did it. They did it when they said they would do it and found surprising things from it in terms of the human genome has many fewer genes than we thought. As yet, the follow-up from that is unclear. People are really only now starting to mine that information in a really serious way and beginning to make use of it. But yeah, and there's no reason. A lot of that work was done by people just like you, just like me, just like our viewers out there, right? Well, I think you have a very good point and people see also the commercial applications or products that they can use in their lives and lots of innovations and products came out of the research at NASA, for example. The advances in computing could not have happened without the great coding that people did back then. There was a movie on some programmers, African American female programmers who contributed to this project. I always think of a product that people use every day in the kitchen and it was based on some scientific experiments in the material science department, MIT in the 20s. It was very simple, at what level or how thin can they make a metal? That was the objective of the research and we use aluminum foil every day. These things that start out as abstract phenomena end up being common in place. You do see, and that's actually a nice example, the thinness of substance that gets into an area that you want to talk about a little bit. I know nanoscale science and how properties of substances change at the nanoscale. That's one of the hallmarks of it is when you get something small enough, it pays rather differently than it does at import properties. But trying to convey that to the man on the street is sometimes a challenging thing. I think you're correct. In science, the questions are what is the universe? What is atom? These are questions that people spend lifetimes and even more trying to focus on. Engineering, on the other hand, is how to solve problems, provide a solution to retaining water by a dam, for example, in civil engineering. They have big issues right now in California because of the rain. But going back to your question, last week a major figure passed away at MIT, Professor Emerita Mildred Dresselhaus. And she focused on carbon, which is everywhere on the planet. Even in pencils, for example. And diamonds are made of carbon. And she looked at how small carbon could be and how to deliver things like, or make it into tubes, or buccalines, fullerines, or properties of carbon. And they could be delivery agents for medicine, for example, within a human being, body. So Jay and I were just talking on a recent show about graphing, the single sheet of atoms in graphite. And that's now apparently being a very hot topic for being able to put pores of just controlled sizes into graphing sheets. And again, one of our big defense companies has actually apparently perfected this, or at least gotten some version of it that will allow you to convert freshwater saltwater at about 1% of the current pressure needed for reverse osmosis, because they use those ultra-thin membranes now. A membrane of graphing basically with special pores in it. That's fantastic. And I think you're also shutting light on one of the issues in our society is to sustain the budget for scientific research, because you don't know where it's going to go. You really don't. And unless you allow young people, young scientists and researchers to go into other fields, or their own projects, they may come up with things that we had no idea would exist in our, that could really make our lives better. But it's so much, and you see this in really top-notch scientists, that they're playful people. They're thoroughly immersed in enjoying what they're doing every day. They don't regard it as some sort of rote work. It's a job I've got to go to. And yet so much of basic science is routinely taught as this sort of rote work. Memorize this list of terms. Learn this vocabulary list. And it shouldn't be that way. It should be all about playing. There's so much, there's so much stuff out there. I mean, again, going back to the nanoscale of science, when you look at a puddle in a parking lot, you see that sheen on it, right? That's essentially because of the very, a very thin layer of oil or gasoline on the water, right? And it's actually forming two layers that are close enough together that light is interfering with itself, basically, top versus bottom layer of that slick. And it's close enough that it causes interference. It's all, science is all around. It's every day and there's no reason in order to be scared of it. There's lots of questions. I think you're also touching upon how we get more young people into science and the value of K to 12. Within that span, if they haven't... I'll tell you a story. I was with... I worked for MIT for about six years and I was with the chairperson of MIT, Paul Gray in Japan. And we met the chairperson of Toyota. His name is Dr. Toyoda actually. And we were having lunch and all of a sudden Dr. Toyoda turns to Dr. Gray and says, Dr. Gray, how do you teach creativity? Very interesting question out of the blue, which every country is dealing with today. Not only Japan, but the U.S., Brazil, or the U.K., or Germany, or Russia. And Paul Gray thought about it and then he responded, well, if a child doesn't have that, when he or she enters MIT, we can't teach it. Right, it's too late. It's too late. It's like trying to learn a second language. So K to 12, the curiosity about science and to really look for answers in the world has to be inculcated, really embedded within that being a young person and to learn, of course, more about physics or math or whatever at the university, but that when they get out of high school, they have to have that spark. You're correct. Exactly. They should love learning and see themselves as a learner, as somebody who can learn, who does learn all the time, who wants to learn. I mean, if a school has failed to do that, if a school has basically failed to, your K-12 system has failed to produce what it needs to produce. They can produce people who know a lot of content, but if they don't enjoy learning and asking the questions, you know. Well, it's basically an inquiry. You're absolutely right. And when you talk about the largest societal issues, I go back to Hawaii. And we were talking before the show. In 1983, I returned from working at Digital Equipment Corporation, a major mini-computer company of that era. But if, you know, 20 years from now, I'm a child and ask them, what do you know about Google? He'll say, what's that? So it'll happen. But when I returned from DEC, I joined Castlin Cook, a big five land development company back in the early 80s. And what we were trying to do at that point was to promote a high-tech park. And one of the ways to do that was to publish a magazine. And if you could look at the Hawaii high-tech journal magazine cover, and it started out as a series of magazines that promoted scientific research at UH and there was the Hawaii Biotechnology Group that's starting out. Intellect, a company that made software and hardware for air defense systems was in town in Honolulu. There was a sensor lab by Jim Holm Kennedy at UH. And there were all kinds of other things happening all over Hawaii in 1983. And the objective was to really promote Hawaii as a site and venue for high-tech companies to come and establish more R&D facilities or for entrepreneurs really to take off and establish more startups. And so that is giving you a bit of history that was part of a movement back in the early 80s to really get going as a society and to make science and technology a base to diversify the economy. But that is not new though even in the 80s. Going back to the 1960s, Governor John A. Burns in the mid-60s said we must have a Hawaii economy based on research. And that's from a time when we learned about high-tech other than it was a big five agricultural dominant economy. But of course the agriculture industry brought in actually some very interesting technological advances for harvesting and processing foods, automation of various sorts that were quite cutting edge at the time and of course even going back further as you gave me that wonderful article on Prince Kuhio and how he basically sort of a great MBA program, right? That's right. We think that we're doing the state of the art today and looking at the 21st century for Hawaii to be the mid-Pacific center for exports have a sustainable agricultural base then we have great education that have young people going out to the world and really learning more things. But back in the 19th century King Kalakaua was really creating a cadre of young Hawaiians to go out and learn and bring back to Hawaii. I mean, it's arguable that we ought to be doing the same kind of thing again, right? We ought to be really both promoting our own resources internally but very much developing the capacity and the capabilities of our young people to go and become citizens of the world but bring their learning back to Hawaii, share Hawaii's learning out with the rest of the world. I mean, we should be much more thoroughly integrated into the world economy than we are. It's very strange to me to realize when I got our deal we import something like 85% of the food we eat and then we export something like 85% of the stuff we grow. I mean, if you look at that and you say, well, who's making the money here? It's people who are transporting the goods. It doesn't seem like the way to run the state's economy. Go ahead. You referred to sort of this golden era in the mid-80s when everyone wanted to promote Hawaii as a technology. Why did that sort of not take root? I mean, Hawaii is not thought of as a high-tech mecca these days as it were, right? Well, I think it has to have many groups and far more...go ahead. I was just going to...before we do that I'm going to hold that we need to take a break and we'll follow that question up when we come back. I'm your host, Ethan Allen. Ray Tuchiana is here with me today and we're discussing a state of science in Hawaii. We'll be right back. Hello, and Aloha. My name is Raya Salter and I'm the host of Power of Hawaii, where Hawaii comes together to figure out how we're going to work towards a clean and renewable energy future. We have exciting conversations with all kinds of stakeholders, to come together to talk about renewable energy. Be they engineers, advocates, lawyers, utility executives, musicians or artists to see how we can come together to make a renewable future. Tuesdays at 1 p.m. Aloha. My name is Richard Emory, host of Condo Insider. More than a third of Hawaii's population live in some form of association. And our show is all about educating board members and owners about the responsibilities and obligations and providing solutions for a great association. You can watch me live on Thursdays, 3 p.m. to 4 p.m. Each week. Aloha. And you're back here on Placable Science, here on Think Tech Hawaii. I'm your host, Ethan Allen, with me today in the Think Tech Studio. This is Ray Tuchiana and we're talking about the state of science in Hawaii. Took one more break about why this sort of golden age of tech promotion, tech development in the early to mid-80s didn't really stick with us. Why it didn't flourish. Why Hawaii has not developed into a real Silicon Valley as it were. And you were just starting to go into that one. It's not a huge, huge brilliant answer. And because you can ask the same question in Arkansas, Montana, Idaho or Wyoming. And sometimes we think of Hawaii being so unique and so much, you know, full of talented people that we could do anything. But remember that the rest of the many other places in the world that are trying also. But going back to your question, I think there was, in order to have that diversification really flourish with startups that become larger, create more jobs, and then they become there's more startups from there and so forth. And there has to be an ecosystem, first of all. It doesn't exist by itself, first of all. So there has to be a program where there's research or patents or ideas coming from UH. That's our premier Carnegie One research university here in the state. And there's a connection to the business sector. That there are people who want to take those ideas to make products and license them and then employ people to further develop these products and so forth. In order to do that, you must have capital. You must have venture capital to really pay these people to pay for trips to Japan or China for marketing purposes and so forth. And also, in order to do that very well, you have to have a leadership team in Silicon Valley or Seattle or LA or New York. It's very easy to go down the street and get a CEO, COO, CTO, CFO, CIO and so forth to bring up their very experience. I was part of a startup in Seattle that went from zero to 100 million in about six years. But that team was very good. A noble kind of team with very good engineering development and a great product. So you have all those ingredients work and then you're gone. Now, having said that, nine out of ten startups fail in Silicon Valley. So you have to have numbers, a lot of numbers. And so there's that I think connection. I'll give you an example that people know real, the Gatorade. And it's a sports trip, right? And it's been around for decades. And you think, why is it named Gatorade? It's Gators. Alligators. Florida. Research. They made it, they licensed it. That's why it's called Gatorade. University of Florida. So there's a connection there and so there was something invented that became a product and now it's going gangbusters and even if you get ten cents it adds up to real money in a few years. So that's again products but you have to have I think a culture of entrepreneurship. And when I was at MIT everybody wanted to become an entrepreneur. And the 45% of this to do was engineering. And in fact, they have studies where there were more MIT graduates doing startups in Silicon Valley than Stanford. And it's because of numbers. In that engineering it's probably 15%. MIT it's 45%. So you have more numbers of people growing out there. And they all have a vision of becoming entrepreneurs and really adding value to society by making new things and creating jobs. One of my former colleagues from University of Washington went off and did a post-doc at MIT and got into one of their business accelerator programs and now has gone off and formed his own company Optitech and is doing refraction of people's eyes in third world countries and much more cheaply and more effectively than everyone. And again, that's taking an idea to the product and adding to society in a third world country. And you're correct about another thing about accelerators, incubators and so forth. That's again part of that. And that's the innovation center that started in the mid-90s. And so, but the other thing about MIT that I want to point out is that there's leadership at the top that looks at all the work that people are doing in engineering, science and business and so forth and seeing how they can be put together in a new center, a multidisciplinary. And I think that's something that is very unique. Like the Media Lab for example was they were doing things about wearable computing or glasses 15 years ago. And they have centers on the laboratory for electronics. They have centers for real estate. They have all kinds of multidisciplinary centers. So it's looking at the future and having leadership that at a major university says, oh, I would like to put together software engineering and robotics for the Japanese and put together a translation, you know, kiosk at airports that would help people translate, for example. So for example, here now at UH the new National Science Foundation EPSCORE program, Ikiwai, Knowledge of Water. They are bringing geophysicists together with computer modelers basically and a whole array of people building new kinds of sensors that are trying to sort of model, map and determine boundaries and volumes of the aquifers here in Hawaii flow rates of the water through it and really come to understand the water in Hawaii which is clearly of considerable interest and value to us but that model, once they develop it, could then be applied to other islands too. So the smaller islands out in the Pacific would find that extremely useful too. So there's a large global market for something that was developed for Hawaii and that's exactly right. So because we are Ireland, we don't think about that. But if we can sell something like I worked for a startup that had research based on communications for handicapped people and that became software of mobile phones to make predictive texting so that it would be used by people you don't have a keyboard, right? And they're restricted in terms of access to a full keyboard on a mobile phone. And the other thing that happened I think in the 80s that kind of did Hawaii and that went into the 90s in some ways was the role of Japanese investment that came in the 80s and that kind of defocused people on that. It was a huge tsunami of investment and money and funding and it was not it was a display so defocus people not to look at making companies in Hawaii and going out. I see. So then how do you think we can reverse this? How can we sort of reinvigorate this? Get your magazine or back on the front page and get it growing? The magazine Hawaii High Tech Journal is kind of a historical landmark bringing back all the things that in those magazines are obsolescent by research. But some of the interviews by University President Albert Savone he really is about today. Same things innovation and venture capital and many, many things. I still think the number one priority for the state is public education K-12. That is where I think so much is needed to really promote science as you say, languages to give children a I'm not saying to teach coding. I think it's a mistake to say teach coding because in 20 years robots will be doing coding or we'll be doing something else. How to think how to dream I think those are two critical areas and how to think quantitatively based on data empirically based on data how to communicate with other people outside of your culture language again another skill set there. And of course how to dream big that you can come out of Kalihipalama, Waena, Kahuku or Lihui or Hilo and really make a product or make an impact on global kind of scale. And so dreaming for children is I think we suppress that. That is true. The school system does not encourage it. So we have to when children dream we need to immediately arm them or give them ways to make that a reality in the future. Help them learn to think about their own thinking reflect on their learning. I figured this problem out by doing this that's a good strategy. I stumbled over this problem to get them to think back about how they've been thinking so they can learn to think better basically. At the same time discover their own capacities for learning. So I still believe that society can diversify its economy. I am a very optimistic person. But still we have to go back and really put this in the face of every resident of every voter here in Hawaii bring that back always every day. That's what's going to make that change. We're not going to see that change in 5 years or 10 years. It may take a much longer time. But I think the and also I think we have to look at Hawaii as a place that as you mentioned before that we can export ideas and our culture in many ways that I think I did well in Asia Pacific dealing with people and interacting with people because I grew up in Kali Palama I respected people and tried to learn more about other people and because who knows where they're from but I wanted to get to know about them, respect them and communicate with them in their own way and make the dialogue successful. I did negotiations in China, India, Africa, Russia you name it, I was out there but it harks back to Kali Palama and so we shouldn't denigrate or make cultures that we have locally second or third class. You've wrapped things up very neatly. You've called out exactly what needs to happen. It's this great idea of respect building our own resources doing sort of asset based thinking realizing all the good things we have and really building from them. Thank you for your conversation here. I've enjoyed it. I feel like I've learned a lot. I'm sure our viewers have learned a bunch too. I wish we had more time. Perhaps I can get you back here sometime. We can talk a little further. I would enjoy it a lot because you're a fun guy. We're trying to make science.