 Speak louder. Speak louder, right up your head. Partly DC, I have to do... What's your name? Lucia. My name is Lucia Puzina. My name is Lucia Puzina. P-U-Z-Y-N-A. Were you born in Lithuania? No, I was born in France. When did you go to Lithuania? I did go to Lithuania in... ...31. 1931. Did you go with your husband to Lithuania? Yes, I went with my husband. In 1954, you have been living in Lithuania. Yes, I... I lived there until the time of the party in Lithuania. And the important way, why did you leave Lithuania? Why did you leave Lithuania? I wanted to go back to my country. Since 1946, I asked for the exit visa from the USSR. It was granted to me only now. For eight years, I wanted to go back. Since 83 years, since 1946, I have tried to return to my native country, France. And I asked to get the visa to go back to France. But only now, recently, I got the official permission to leave Lithuania. Were you living on a collective farm after 1941? Yes, I lived on a collective farm after 1941. I worked on a collective farm for four months until December 24, 1953. I worked four months on a collective farm at the end of 1953. Where were you living? The workers are not paid enough, the waiters are very low, and that was their earning, it's not sufficient to further living. To prevent the spread of communism. Would you say that this is true, that one way to start communism is not to collaborate with it? In a way. And it was about true that if the Western powers took a firm position, whether it's in Geneva, Berlin, or anywhere else, when they deal with communism, they would not only be raising the morale of the people behind the Iron Curtain, but spreading the idea of communism elsewhere. I think this could be the main curtain. And if we talk about actualities now, isn't it true that one of the best things this committee could do would be to create in the United States an understanding of the fact that any attempt to compromise with communism must result in a gain for communism, and eventual control by communism? And isn't it true that that is the story of Romania, that is the story of Poland, and practically every other country behind the Iron Curtain? And if the people behind those Iron Curtains were convinced today that the United States and other Western powers cease to try to compromise with communism, it would be an upsurge of spirit in those countries? Yes, very much. Mr. Chairman, could I make this comment regarding Mr. Tresca's testimony? The Congress of the United States, as you know, Mr. Tresca, in 1951 authorized the creation of a special committee known as the Coutine Massacre Investigating Committee. And I happen to be chairman of that committee, and Congressman Makovic, who was a member of this committee, was also a member of that committee. And testimony was introduced at our hearings during that investigation regarding the prisoners that were taken in the fall of 1939 from Poland, and also the early 1940s, in the early 1940s. But of course our committee did not take testimony as to all the statistics regarding Polish prisoners, which you've just presented to this committee. And I might state that testimony was presented stating that in 1939, right from also alone there was 150,000 or more prisoners taken by the Russians. And in the fall of 1939, especially in the early hours of the morning, the Soviet police separated the leaders of Lithuania. By both, she would be unable or would be stopped from leaving Lithuania. She would be stopped from leaving Lithuania. If she were a Lithuanian, she couldn't get out, is that it? Yes, that's correct. She could not leave if she were a Lithuanian. I could not leave Lithuania if I would be born Lithuania. That's awesome. Mr. Piel, are you reporting people from Lithuania to Siberia and slave labor camps? Do you know anything? Do you still report people from Lithuania to prison or forced labor camps? The last report I've seen was in September or October 1951. The last report I've seen, witnessed with my own eyes, was in September or October 1951. Before you proceed further, Mr. Latin, I'd like to have a word with you about this. Oh, why don't you strike my question? I'll repeat the question. Mr. Chairman, I recognize among the officers and witnesses of the Polish Army and the Polish Foreigner Free Poland gathered here today some of the witnesses who testified two years ago when the Cateen Massacre Committee, which was created by Congress in 1951 held hearings here in London. I want to state that the experiences and the valiant fight that you, officers who are gathered here today, put up for Poland back in the beginning of World War II will go down in history as one of the outstanding examples of the historic fight that all Poles back through the centuries have demonstrated through their patriotism for a free and independent Poland illustrates to my mind that the people of Poland will never cease fighting and working as long as Poland is held in communistic slavery that fight will never cease until Poland is free. And I want to commend this group here today for being one of the many leaders in that fight that has been going on and will continue to go on until Poland is free. Mr. Chairman, if I could just add enough witnesses that we had and who testified at length on the Cateen Massacre investigation and I don't know, I understand he's to fear here as a witness of the great hero and leader of the Polish Army during World War II or General Andrews, I understand he's to fear. That's correct, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Councilor, will you proceed to examine these Polish officers and we are very happy to have with us this morning. Yes, Mr. Chairman. And Congressman Batty, Mr. Chairman, in addition to your statements regarding General Andrews, I might say for the record that two years ago last month the Cateen Massacre Committee which was authorized by Congress in 1951 held hearings in London. The officers of the Polish government in exile contributed so much in unraveling that international crime where 14,000 more Polish officers, military officers, judges, lawyers, doctors and Polish leaders were massacred by the Kremlin. And I will add to your statement in commending General Andrews for the outstanding cooperation and work he not only gave the Cateen Committee but is also giving the committee of which Congressman is chairman. Company is weak. I think the same is today. If they unite directly and thanks, all people will go to the United States. But if the United States speaks only the word and there are no facts, all people are weak. I think that the United States military went through great his leadership. This is my opinion. It's minimal. The fact that these communists accepted them to a coalition government. The Prime Minister? In March we went to Moscow. But the coalition with the communists lasted since the time when Russia went into the war. When Russia went into the war, the communists, four communists in London went into our national council. That was before you and then it went to Moscow? No, the government was accorded in Moscow. Before Moscow the communists had no posts in our government. No posts. They didn't want it. State council, yes. No, you didn't ask about the positions of the communists in the state council. In the government. They had no posts before going to Moscow. Then we didn't have any communists in the government in 1935? No, no, no one. Why did you and Dr. Belich believe that you could get along with the communists? Yes, I see. In that time the Russians for us were friends and they assured us that they will grant all democratic liberties. Of course, if we had judged the communists after their program and their literature, Marxism and so on, we couldn't believe it. But we tried to believe. It was the situation which did us try to believe the communists. Now, Mr. Spicer, yes, I would like to just get one thing in the record. During this time the Russian army, the Communist army was at the very gates of Warsaw since 1939, is that correct? No, the Russian armies came to the gates of Warsaw, they approached to the gates of Warsaw in July 44. July 44? Yes. When did they really start their take away to bringing about that day we're all looking forward to? When Poland will again be free, as promised Poland, under the Atlantic Charter, and that you men will be back in command of an army in Poland that is on a free and democratic basis, like I know each one of you would like to have it. It was not too high being completely on a tile. The man has only one idea, to have a rest, to have a rest at all costs. That is exactly what the nations are brought to, to the stage when they will be so overtired by the general atmosphere, confusion, and... Poland, more than the people, the agreement. You think that the forces of communism everywhere or anywhere in the world will be effective to him of the fire. Now with the advantage of our hindsight, rather than force-eyed, do you believe that the force of that time was a wise one? I see it, but I can only answer. Dr. Benes did what in his opinion was necessary to save the democracy in Czechoslovakia. I understand that, but if he had knowledge then of the true tendencies of communism, which evidently he must have had some openings up, he probably wouldn't have done this. Of course not, and maybe he believed that the Moscow government would help him in getting the communists to reason. In other words, he thought a little communism was all right as long as he didn't get mad too much of it. Yes. He didn't know that once you start with a little communism there is no end to it. Yes. Now you mentioned the fact that Mr. Mikolajczyk of the Polish government, under much worse circumstances, acceded to the desires of the British and the American government and did enter into the so-called Lublin government. Yes. But it's a fact, is it not, that Dr. Stanislas Mikolajczyk did so individually, but not the rest of the Polish government in exile. Yes, but he was not, I don't think he was alone. He has, he's party. He was a certain party of the Polish, of course. The Ukrainians. It was only that one group. Only that one group. The rest of the Polish government in exile resisted the efforts. Yes, yes. And as a result of their resistance, the British government and the United States government eventually withdrew the recognition of that government. Yes. So as I, what we're trying to find out, as I understand our past, is what happened in these countries after the communists took over. That's our purpose. Yes, yes. Since we've gotten into speculation, I, I think it's fair to bring out what unbounded me that was in your mind and in the mind of Dr. Benish, not only the fact that the Western powers were pressuring you to cooperate with the communists, but also the fact that in 1938 you had been abandoned by the West and the Nazis practically. Now the Western, well, it's by France. That must have been in your thinking, wasn't it? Yes. And you'd suffered under this terrible Nazi occupation, as you've indicated. Now if I understand my situation correctly, the people of Czechoslovakia were about ready to take anything in order to get away from the Nazi tyranny. And they had a bad experience with the West in so far as helping them out with concern months before. But actually they had very little choice to make, isn't that right, yes. I talked to Dr. Benish in Prague. I spent two days there with him in 1946. My recollection is that... You ran under the conquistment from then to Prague. No, I wasn't, nothing, I wasn't kind of doing that. But I was down there and seen some time ago. My recollection is that he told me that really he didn't have any choice. I had the impression that you really had a pistol at your head. That's accurate, isn't it? Yes. And also I had the impression from the people I knew in Czechoslovakia, that you were hopeful that you could somehow, by getting back there, work this thing out. And then if you... So now we do know that that was not possible, but nobody knew it then. Also I think it's fair to suggest to you that... And I'm sure all of the members would agree that Dr. Benish didn't make any more mistakes than the rest of us made. The only difference is that we... That we could not come to an agreement with the communists before we went to the liberated part of the republic via Moscow. Because in our London State Council that... We continue. In Moscow, where we arrived on March 17, the Soviet government didn't directly interfere in our negotiations. Some kind of pressure was implied in the fact that we, the guests, were given to understand that eight days had been reserved for our visit. What date was this, Mr. President? What date was it? I did not consider that our government at the time was such. This is just to show you that the slightest sign of encouragement from the West, we did our best to show the world that we did not wish this communism. So after this declaration to the United States, I called Rosa and told her... What's the name of Mr. Braziano's party? M-A-N-U. I spell it. M-A-N-I-U, I believe. And the other person? Mr. Braziano, B-R-A-T-I-A-N-O. So the government was the same except for these two people. And this government was there to prepare... To make some profitable things for my country. Under the condition that I will tell something which nobody would trust outside the world, so that relatively the price was put for me. Well, you raise your right hand, General Boer. You do solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth will help you back. I do solemnly swear that they will tell the truth, not only the truth, but also the truth. General Kalchinsky, you do solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth will help you back. Yes, I do. General Montard, do you understand English? Yes. You do solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth will help you back. I do. Colonel Permian? Thank you. Dick? Mr. Chairman, I wish to join in the comments that you made in reference to the anniversary of the uprisings in East Germany to the three people of the world. They appreciate the significance of that movement, and I sincerely believe that as time goes on, we will find that in other parts of the world, where people have the desire to be free, we will actually demonstrate in a similar manner when the appropriate time comes about. Would you tell me, please, what subject or subject you talk to the children? Mr. President, I mean, I think it was all far. Professor de Français, de langue française. French language. You didn't teach any history then. No. Did the other teachers teach the children that Russia is protecting the Lithuanians from the capitalist world? Do you know? Is there this propaganda also that Russia is protecting the Lithuanians against capitalism, against the coup d'etat of this side? Yes, it protects and frees the Lithuanians. First, the Russians are saying that they liberated us. And secondly, that they are protecting us and will protect. What were some of the reasons that the children gave for going to church when they were called upon before a group to explain the fact that they had been at church? Did you hear? What were the reasons, for example, when the children were called to say why they went to church, as you said before? What were the reasons that the children answered? The children had been rather troubled and didn't know what to answer. Are the children taught that they are now, since so-called liberation, a part of Mother Russia? Or are they taught that they are still an independent nation of Lithuania? Do you know? They are taught that we are independent Lithuanians. With the communists. He didn't participate in our conversations with the communists because he was the president above the parties. Well, he was there for the ride, then. For the ride. No, he had to return. He had to return home. He did not perform any official function there except the social function. Is that correct? Yes. You ask about 43? No. Of course, 43, he was there alone. Yes. Then he discussed with... General, you're speaking now about those 16 men who were invited to Moscow together with Stipokosky, about which we've had two monies. Yes, that's right. He was one of them. Yes, yes, from this group. At that time, he was chief of staff. At this time, he was my chief of staff. After a very long meeting. They do that here as well as in...