 Hi everyone, welcome. My name is Priya Chhaya and I am the Associate Director of Content for the National Trust for Historic Preservation. This year's Preservation Month theme is People Saving Places and is a national high-five to everyone during the great work of saving places in ways big and small, all while inspiring others to do the same. I'd like to welcome you to Podcasts for Preservation, one of our signature events for Preservation Month 2022. For today's event, we wanted to bring together a group of individuals advocating for preservation through audio storytelling. While there are many podcasts that engage with issues important to preservation and historic places, the four people and podcasts we are featuring today, each approach talking about historic places in different ways. In different ways. I'm going to let Rita, Joan, Deca and Cynthia all introduce themselves using their best podcast narrator voice. After that, we'll do a little icebreaker where each person will tell us about a historic place they wish more people knew about before we have a conversation about the value of audio storytelling and podcasts to saving places. But first, because I'm asking our speakers to introduce themselves using their best narrator voice, I thought I should do the same. So here it goes. Hello. My name is Priya Chaya and welcome to Podcasts for Preservation, a preservation month from the National Trust, a preservation month event from the National Trust for Historic Preservation. I'm a public historian who loves storytelling in all its forms and I'll be your moderator for today. Rita, tell us about you. Thank you, Priya. Hi, my name is Rita Cofield and I am a recent graduate student of USC's Heritage Conservation Program. And I am currently working with the Getty Conservation Institute and the Office of Historic Resources for their Los Angeles African American Historic Places project. And I consider myself a neighborhood preservationist. Hi, everyone. My name is Joan Cummins and I work at President Lincoln's Cottage, a historic site and museum in Washington, D.C. What we say when we start our podcast Q&A as we say at President Lincoln's Cottage, we are storytellers, historians and truth seekers. So our show takes real visitor questions we wish that we have gotten on the tour that we wish we could spend a half hour answering and digs into them with the help of a wide variety of experts. Hi, I am Dekka Hussein-Wetzel, a historic preservationist and urban planner who specializes in saving places significant to BIPOC communities, which around the country are just completely in danger of being destroyed and forgotten. So my podcast Urban Roots dives deep into these little known urban histories. We not only interview academics and history and preservation, but we seek out community members to elevate their voices, these voices of women, people of color and other marginalized groups. Through story, we do help preserve these places that matter to minority communities, which is pretty important to us. That's great, Dekka. I'm Cynthia Crackauer. I'm the executive director of the Beverly Willis Architecture Foundation and the host and director of our podcast New Angle Voice. New Angle Voice is conceived of as a supplement to our award-winning website, The Pioneering Women of American Architecture. We bring together the scholarship of the website with contemporary practitioners and look at the whole women that are behind the historic figures. We visit the historic sites. We do on-site recording and we like to say we're the Ken Burns of podcasting, because we mix both archival audio as well as contemporary expert testimony and our own interpretation. Sorry, trying to unmute all helicopters or overhead. So thank you all for introducing yourself. It's so great to hear from everyone and to have everyone here today. I thought we would kick things off a little with a little icebreaker where each of you tells about a historic site that you wish more people knew about. And so we're going to go in the same order. Rita, if you don't mind starting. Absolutely. Well, of course, it's the building that I've been working on in my community called the Watts Happening Cultural Center or the, we call it the Mofundi Building and it houses a legacy business called the Watts Coffee House. And the reason why I think folks should know more about it is because it was one of the most prominent cultural arts centers in Los Angeles during its heyday between 1970 and 1975. And it was the only black cultural arts center of its kind anywhere in the US between 1970 and 1975. Not everybody knows that. So I think that everybody should know that and come and support the coffee house because they have great waffles. And also we are trying to restore it and revive it. So the more people that know about it, the more people can support it. That's my place. That sounds incredible. And I think it's amazing to think about a historic place that is bringing a community of people together now as well as in the past. You know, my first answer to this question continues to be President Lincoln's Cottage because I think a lot we still get folks who say they've lived in DC for XYZ number of years and haven't had a chance to come and see us, which is fair. We opened to the public in 2008. Lincoln spent three summers living here and came up with the Emancipation Proclamation while he was living here. But if I'm not allowed to choose the cottage, I think my second choice is the Sewell Bellmount house, which is right across the street from the Capitol building and was for a long time the headquarters of the National Women's Party who were invested in getting primarily white women the right to vote. And so I think this site has a lot of potential for talking about the complications of that activism struggle. And I think that would be really exciting for more folks to know about. That's amazing. I have something on the West Coast that I thought was really fascinating. So the Biddy Mason Memorial Park in LA and the first African Methodist Episcopal Church, which Biddy Mason bounded, but who is Biddy Mason, right? Like nobody knows about her. Well, Bridget Biddy Mason was an African-American woman who went from being born into slavery in 1818 to by the time she died in 1891 becoming the wealthiest black woman west of the Mississippi. And she was super integral in shaping the landscape of early Los Angeles. Basically, she was the definition of a black pioneer. Both the park and the church honor her legacy. The park is in the location of the first property that she purchased in downtown LA. It's between two high rises and it's kind of hard to find, but it's a really, really cool spot. And also the church that she helped found, which she found in her home originally is in the Sugar Hill neighborhood. And it was built in 1968 by Paul Revere-Williams. Well, because of the format, we look at individual women and their total body of work. So I have a place for each one of my five initial episodes. So our first episode was about Julia Morgan, who was a Bay Area architect. And perhaps not her most famous building, but her most, her dirtiest building is the Campanile at Mills College, which was one of the few buildings it was made in reinforced concrete. And it was one of the few buildings that survived the 1906 earthquake in San Francisco. Natalie DeBloy was an architect, worked at Skidmore Owings in Merrill. And she was the kind of adjunct woman to the way more famous Gordon Bunchack. But she herself was personally responsible for the design of the Union Carbide Building, a 55-story office building on Park Avenue, which has now been completely demolished. And an example of not preserved and a much smaller building, the Pepsi-Cola building, also on Park Avenue, which is still extant, although not occupied. Helen Fong is a very much unknown Los Angeles Chinese American architect who worked for the firm of Armand Davis. And she was really responsible for what Googie Los Angeles looks like. She was the architect for the restaurant Pans, which is at the intersection of La Tierra, if you've been to LA, La Tierra and La Cienega on the back way to the airport. And it is this extraordinary Jetsons total work of art, and it's still there. And it's still serving fried chicken and waffles, which is pretty amazing. And then Norma Sklarik, who was in Los Angeles and in California, the first African American woman to be licensed in the state of California. And she was a partner at Groen Associates. And while she was at Groen, she worked on a number also in the shadow of a more famous man in the shadow of Cesar Peli. She was responsible for the execution of the California Design Center, as well as the Cal, as well as Calmar. So, whole bunch. Only one you can't see because it's gone. All of these places sound really great. And the thing I love about this event, and the other one we recorded yesterday, is just how different each of the places you picked are. And it reminds you that historic places mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. And just like that, your podcasts all talk about preservation in a lot of different ways that connect people with places primarily through listening. And so I thought to sort of kick off the conversation, I'd ask a, it's a more formal question, but we can obviously see where the conversation goes from there, is for a profession that is often, but not always dealing with tangible resources. Why do you think that podcasting is a valuable tool for preservationists? And Rita, I think when you answer, if you don't mind talking a little bit about save ads and how you worked on it as a student, and how that changed maybe your perception of podcasting as a tool. Sure. I did, I was fortunate enough to do two save as podcasts, one for my thesis, and another for the Mofundi building with some of the USC students who did it as their as the materials conservation class. But if you are not familiar with the term griot, griot is a West African historian, storyteller, and a repository of oral history. So when I think of preservationists, I think of them as a form of griots. We take the stories that we are entrusted with, and we tie them to place. So what save as is doing is that they are taking these stories of students. It's a story of USC students, graduate and former and current students, and it's taking their stories, their thesis, and talking about it on the podcast. And their stories are tied to place. Their stories are tied to places of importance, and their varied stories from music institutions to cultural institutions to cemeteries to graffiti art. So save as has been talking about a multitude of stories that are significant, and they're tying these stories to place. And so what the podcast is doing is it's amplifying the importance of the place that are attached to these stories. So it amplifies podcasts, the podcast is amplifying the voices of these sort of modern day griots. So that's, I think that that's why it's a valuable tool for preservationists, because it just amplifies we're able to amplify and spread out our storytelling that's connected to place. I think there's a really kind of cyclical relationship between these two things, which is many times, like Cynthia was talking about buildings that have been lost, many times the effort of preservation is to tell people the story of a place in order to talk them into saving it, right? And then the purpose of preserving the place at all is to be able to continue to tell that story to people. So there's like this cycle between like we have to know the story to make the place happen, and then the place makes the story happen again. And so I think, I think story and storytelling is really essential to that effort, because if there are not any people who remember the story of a place, it doesn't matter anymore, because it doesn't matter to any people, right? It might gain meaning again for different reasons or people rediscover the story, but like the story and the knowledge about it is what creates that meaning. And so this is a tool to share that with people and to explore it with them and rediscover it and recreate that meaning over time. Yeah, definitely agree with that. And I also think that for me, there's a lot of levels to podcasting when it comes to saving tangible places. So some of these things like my fellow lovely ladies here have shared, but like highlighting historical significance of existing sites really helps people recognize their importance. So it leads to preservation, but and it can lead to preservation. It can lead to like somebody recognizing the importance because they hear it on the podcast, because they realize it becomes really, it's really important to the community. So for example, in our first season, we talk about St. Mark Church in Evanston in Cincinnati, Ohio, and it received a local landmark status within a year of our Evanston episode being out. And I'm not necessarily saying that it's tied to that 100%, but I think it is an important and it taught a lot of people that the community really, really wants this building to be saved. And this building is also like multi-leveled history, because originally it wasn't built as an African-American church, but it then became very significant to African-Americans after the mid-century when more African-Americans came into this neighborhood. And then it talks about, we talk about, you know, the white flight associated with the neighborhood red lining block busting with that and other neighborhoods in Cincinnati. And like that's not uncommon to the story of any city, of any major city really. But I think each city has something really unique to learn even different, right, than just the, you know, general awareness of, oh yeah, this place is decimated because of, you know, the highway or something. So I find that really, really important, you know, but in turn really helping these properties get listed locally or on the National Register of Historic Places is a big part of what I appreciate about podcasting. And the last thing I'll leave you with here is just like, I think also reinvigorating these places is really important. So they might already be designated. So like in Indianapolis, we're working on episodes where the Madame Walker Theater is already listed, the Ransom Place Historic District is listed. But I don't think a lot of people know about the history of these places. So, you know, after investigating these communities, I've just learned more and more and I just like, I cannot wait to share that with everybody. I think one of the more interesting aspects of focusing on these women and their roles in the production of these significant landmark places is that you get a better sense of their own, the sort of difficulty and challenges of their achievement. And as we were campaigning to save Union Carbide, which, you know, there were different, you know, it's very difficult. New York is a real estate town. Decisions like this are made on the real estate decisions. They're made by large corporations. Chase Bank owned the site and that part of Park Avenue was rezoned for a super tall building's rate in the vicinity of Grand Central Station. So there was a zoning change, which happened in the Bloomberg administration, and then Chase immediately took advantage of that to start trying to get the Union Carbide building torn down. The demolition of the Union Carbide building is the largest demolition ever accomplished, the tallest building ever demolished. And it was taken down piece by piece and put into dumpsters. And the thing that was, I mean, we were not successful. You know, there's sort of, we tried, but we were not successful. So which is, you know, there is this, the act of mobilization to save a property and the ways in which you can influence the hearts and minds and certainly telling a fuller story of how a building like that got made is a way at least to remember it now even that it's gone. Yeah. And I think all of you sort of brought this up in different ways that it's about the advantage of podcasting to some extent is the voices you can bring in to tell those stories. And each of you do that in a, it's not even the voices. It's the soundscape to say, to sort of give people a feel of who these figures are and where these buildings are settled. A thing in DECA, of course, with Lost Voices Cincinnati, where you sort of take the person on the street approach where you're talking to someone and you can hear the ambient noise and stuff like that. And so I think that's what I really appreciate about each of yours, because it uses voice in a different way. And so I was wondering if you all would be willing to talk a little bit about that. I'll just interrupt and go first because I'm on this Natalie thing. One of the most, one of the most exciting things that we found about Natalie DeBlois was that in 1958, she appeared on the television show to tell the truth while she was working on Union Carbide. And you are all probably way too young to remember this television show, but basically they would have three people that would all claim to be somebody with an interesting job. And so we were able to, we were able to use, thank you, CBS, we were able to use the archival audio of Natalie DeBlois on to tell the truth. And the Chicago Architecture Foundation also had a wonderful oral history. So we could actually hear, in addition to Natalie's appearance on television, we also had her voice on, in an oral history. And we also did with Norma Scalaric. So we were able to access their own voices, as well as with Natalie, we interviewed her children and got their take on things too. So in that kind of Ken Burnsy way, we are always looking for a diversity of audio material, you know, both archival ambient, when we went to, we did our recording at Pans at Pans. So you hear the restaurant, you know, clanking around you so that you've got this feeling of the, this like zoomy restaurant, still being a very vital place and a vital part of that part of Los Angeles. I feel like I need to go next, because you talked about Natalie DeBlois and just a side note, because she also is integral in helping construct the Terrace Plaza Hotel in Cincinnati. So there's my Cincinnati segue here. And, and so, and that actually is a very interesting component, because currently it's, is we're trying to get it listed as a local landmark here in Cincinnati. And that's like a whole contentious issue, which is nothing to quite be with the podcast, but it was on the National Trust 11 most, one of America's 11 most endangered historic places two years ago, I think two years ago. Yeah, it might behoove us to have somebody from the National Trust speak at our even the idea remotely at our city meetings, because it's, it's very interesting how this is actually quite contentious here. It's like this gorgeous building that has a lot of history. But, you know, in terms of my podcast in Cincinnati, you know, I haven't necessarily highlighted Terrace Plaza Hotel, but it's that that time period that mid-century time period is a pretty integral part of where we try to capture the voices of different people of color in particular and women. But I believe that podcasting is a form of storytelling where you can actually hear human voices. And that's very intimate and invites listeners to engage with speakers on a deeper level. So by weaving in like all these voices and highlighting different perspectives, we were able to kind of hit on the things to understand like how these communities were negatively impacted by past and present planning efforts. So I think podcasts are really cool because they can help foster that awareness and particularly around these issues of planning and preservation. And then like in, you know, with communities of color, African-Americans in particular, it's generally kind of where the hard hitting planning negative effects come into play. But what I've learned is that there are not a lot of oral histories of African-Americans. So we had to we had to capture those ourselves. So we basically had these interviews and those service oral histories that are now there for the future and for these communities to use. So the reason that all this ties into like nonprofit work is because through the podcast, I realized that there is a clear gap in like preservation and public history where we aren't really actively collecting oral histories of minority residents. And if we don't do those now, the people who were alive in the 60s and the 50s and earlier are not going to be able to, you know, the rest is not going to be captured. We're not going to be able to have them to listen to for later. So Urbanist Media, my non-profit, our mission is to elevate underrepresented voices and ensure that the places to them are the places significant to them are preserved. But through these efforts, we've actually gone to collect oral histories and continue to do that in these neighborhoods like Evanston and Avondale and Cincinnati. We are trying to help these communities specifically create oral history archives. I would say a two-year question about voice, Priya. We are, because we're a Lincoln historic site, we are working with a historic creating which oral history is not an option for the historic folks that we're talking about. But we are very consciously try and answer these visitor questions from a diversity of perspectives. And that of course includes the sort of diversity metrics in terms of making sure we're not always talking to white guys for the show. That's just sort of part of ethical interpretation here. But it also means like diversity of content. So we interviewed a sleep doctor for our show, which maybe doesn't seem related to Lincoln at all. But we were trying to answer the question, how could Lincoln sleep if slavery was happening? So we talked to a civil war historian, we talked to a sleep doctor, and we talked to a healthcare professional who works on secondary trauma, who works with survivors of modern slavery and could speak to us about what secondary trauma is and how that impacts her and her colleagues. So that's just kind of like a spread of perspectives on that question. And every time we approach a question that we have from a visitor that's going to be the starting point for our episode, we try and widen that spread as much as we can and try and get different points of view. And that means that you hear different voices within the episode and we put them in conversation with each other. My favorite thing is the person putting the episode together as when two people in different fields have said almost the same thing back to us in answering the question. And we can make it clear to our listeners that that's really key in understanding the answer. Like John said, the diversity of content is what Save As has been doing using the students. They come up, I mean, they have the topics that they talk about are so varied and so interesting that sometimes I find myself listening to like one, two, and three podcasts back to back because they are so varied and also their generation, it actually keeps me, there is a podcast about using technology and preservation. And I could always learn more about technology and virtual reality in terms of preservation. So that was something that I learned that being in my own sort of corner of preservation I would not have ventured out, but because of the podcast I was able to supplement my interest in learning and I didn't have to go very far at all to do it. I could just pop in, turn on, or click on my Save As podcast and get some diversity. So I think like that's one of the huge things and the voices, the varied voices that you, those of you guys who are interviewing community that would not otherwise have their stories shared or have a place to share their stories broadly except for with one another. And also people found out who I was through the podcast, like, oh, I heard you and this is what you do. And they learned more about me and my work through the podcast. So it's like diversity of voices, diversity of subjects, and spreading those stories that are attached to the place. And if, like, when you hear something like, I'm a foodie. So if I hear a place that has like food attached to it, I'm going to go search out that place. So it's also like making, I think one of, one of you guys said, you know, attracting you to a place. So, yeah. I think another thing that I've discovered in doing the podcast is that it enables us to go from, it go into very different communities. When we were doing, when we were interviewing people for Norma Sklarik, a Los Angeles architect born in Harlem, but you know, really practiced in Los Angeles, we had, one of the people that we interviewed was a project manager who discovered Norma Sklarik's signature, who was working on the renovation of Cal Mart, which is that huge thing downtown, and discovered that Norma Sklarik had signed all the original drawings. And there was this sort of wonderful moment of discovery for her. And that was something that we were, we were able to share both the fact of her participation in that project, but also that sense of, that sense of discovery, and finding things when you're not necessarily looking for them. But Opera Po, Gail Canard, who you must know, was another one of our participants in the Norma Sklarik episode. So, and we, it's a wonderful thing for the sort of group to sort of focus around an individual and express their appreciation and the kind of humanization. Norma had five husbands, and this is sort of always a subjective. People have questions you're saying. Yeah. Yeah, I think this sense of discovery that you're all talking about is a really cool thing about podcasts that, I mean, you can, you can read, you can read a lot of documents and learn new things all the time, but sometimes listening to someone have that revelation just has a bigger impact than if you're just reading a textual piece of evidence or like a book about a certain place. And I think it always brings that connection and meaning that people have with places, it makes it a lot stronger than if you're just reading a quote or a word on a page. And I really appreciate that. And I think the other piece you all are talking about that I appreciate is this idea of community and involving the communities, however you define it, into the process of sharing the meaning of that place. And so, and you might have touched on this already, so I don't know if we want to elaborate a little, but if we could just spend a moment talking about the grassroots connection with podcasting that it isn't always, it isn't always just about like regurgitating what the history books say. And I think you guys all sort of already touched about it, but I thought maybe we'd pull that up just a little bit more for a moment. I know other folks have sort of a more in-depth process on this, so I'll give you guys space to explain. But real quick, our show only exists because visitors ask us questions. That is what the grassroots element of that really means for us, is that they tell us what they want to know more about, and then we take the time to go and answer those. So it's a very specific definition of community, but it means that we are not sitting here going, I don't know what I want to talk about next, because we've got another question from a visitor to start from. I think that for me, when you say grassroots, it makes me think a lot of things that we're trying to accomplish in our podcast is have a, convince people or explain to people that it is important to do planning from the bottom up or to do preservation kind of from the bottom up. But I also see grassroots as all the non-profit organizations that are working to improve our built environment. What we have left also preserving the stories of people who don't have places that are significant to them that are left, they're tangible. This all has really led, the podcasting work that I've done has really led to me creating a niche and being able to be one of the people of Cincinnati who could say that they're an African American Cincinnati historian. So the larger Cincinnati organization that is our preservation group is called the Cincinnati Preservation Association, and I'm actually the Black Sites researcher for the Cincinnati Preservation Association. And that's a new position that started through some great people just thinking about how we need to be trying to approach preserving what's left in these communities and being proactive about it, because one of the things our city council people and other folks think about preservation, they say, oh, why aren't you proactive about it? And I'm like, well, where's the money? Where's the opportunity to identify these things before they're gone? So I find that the podcasting helps elevate and bring to light these places and, you know, in Cincinnati and outside of Cincinnati. Our podcast started in Cincinnati as a focus, there's three or four episodes on Cincinnati. We were funded through ArtsWave, a local organization. It was a individual artist grant, and from there I was able to kind of just build upon build upon the podcast and created, you know, urbanist media, non-profit with another local younger preservationist here. And, you know, we're just trying to kind of go into communities and talk to people. So that's the other level of I think what I've been able to do is it's actually really hard to go into communities and say, hey, we want to talk to you. So, you know, working with my urbanist media co-founder Carrie Rodis, who was already doing survey work at Evanston. And, you know, she had built a relationship and so that allowed me to be able to come in and say, hey, you know, I want to come in here and help elevate and tell your stories. But really, actually, I'm not, I don't want to tell your story. I want you to tell the story and I want to help navigate it, right? So that was what was really important to me. And I feel like we accomplished that through, you know, the podcast about Cincinnati and I think what we're going to be able to do throughout and going into other communities. And that's actually been even harder because I don't live in those communities. So in Indianapolis, you know, we've very fortunately been able to, this might go in part of the other things that we might talk about here, but we're able to win a grant from Indiana Humanities to produce the Indianapolis episodes that we're working on right now. And, you know, we wouldn't have been able to do that if we didn't find ways to show that we actually do like want to be involved with the community now and long term. I think I'm sorry for the Jamaican music in the background. For Save As, the community is actually the students, the students who are talking about stories that they're connected to. So they're connected to those stories, and then they connect us to those stories because they're so connected to those stories. There was a recent podcast of a fellow USC graduate. Gosh, I'm blanking on his name now. And I'll think of it. He passed away, I think it was last year, Jerome. Jerome passed away last year, but his thesis was about Robert Conard, Gail Conard's father. And she came on the podcast, and Trudy was on the podcast. Trudy was a very good friend of Jerome's. And they talked about his thesis. So they sort of revived it. And it was a community of folks that were connected in some way, bringing the story to us. And that was one of the best podcasts. I put it at the top. I think Save As has been going on for maybe a year, maybe a year and a half. And that was because they were so connected to Jerome and connecting to his story in different ways. And then they were able to share that. And it's those who are, I think, I can hear a story, I can hear a book on tape, I can read it, but it's nothing like that author or that actor recreating that story for you. And I think that's the gift with podcasts is that you get to recreate, I'm a visualizer. So when I'm hearing things, and they're telling it in a way that puts me right there. So that's when you talk about community, I think of the intersection of those who are telling who are recreating a story, they come from, they have a connection to the place that they are talking about. I think one of the things that, I think, Cria, you said this, and I'm going to just say it again and sort of amplify it with an example. When Norma Scleric was given the Whitney Young Award, which is the sort of public service award for community service from the National American Institute of Architects, Jack Travis was the person who read the proclamation and nomination in front of 25,000 architects at the AIA convention. And at that point, Norma, Norma, who suffered from dementia later in life, really didn't quite remember everything. But what came across in the podcast was the tremendous authentic love and respect that people had for her. And you can hear it in the way that they talk. You don't hear it in a written word. You hear it in the sort of abiding love that gets expressed by these people who are remembering her. I think that's a really great transition to our close up stuff. That was, thank you so much for sharing those perspectives. I think you hit entirely why I wanted to do this event and why I thought listening to your perspectives was really important. And I'm thinking a lot about how with the last two and a half years, in a lot of ways podcasts allow people to go to the places where they couldn't go to. And so I thought maybe what we could close things out is talk about love and talk about joy and maybe give you guys space to do what we were calling a pitch minute for something that you love or an episode that you have coming up that you want people to know about. And we'll sort of use that to close things out. So I don't know if we want to go in the same order we've generally been going. So maybe start with Rita. Sure. Well, I don't I mean, I was on Save As. I don't have a podcast, but I am hoping to start community voices in my community and without community griots or storytellers or community preservationists, the field of heritage conservation won't reflect our diverse heritage. And I think like city governments and municipalities, and we as preservationists have an obligation, an obligation to protect, encourage and celebrate our city's diverse heritage, and amplifying those voices through a podcast is a perfect way is one way of being able to spread that love. So I would definitely of course encourage everybody to listen to Q&A, which is our show for our podcast from President Lincoln Scottish. If you're in DC at any point and would like to come on a tour, please come and do that. That is also conversational and dialogue based in the same way that our podcast is. But to spread the love a little further, I just want to shout out the work of Dr. Gwen Westerman, who is a Dakota poet and scholar who we spoke to for our was Lincoln a racist episode. And not only has she done great work to preserve and amplify the histories of her community. She writes beautiful poetry and is also one of the kindest and most interesting people to talk to have talked to in a long time. So for our Last Voices of Cincinnati series, we produced a video of Cincinnati's West End neighborhoods using old photographs in the neighborhood for an underground railroad freedom center exhibit. And you can find that on our Urban Roots podcast YouTube channel. So I just wanted to highlight that we have some other things out there. Also, in an effort to make preservation even more engaging to our audiences, particularly younger folks, urbanist media and nonprofit, we work to create coloring pages of historic African American people and places that can be found on our Urban Roots website. So that's free, you can print them out, the PDFs, you can download them. And you can then go on our Instagram and tag us at Urban Roots culture. And that way we can see what, you know, your you or your kids have colored. And if you have any other, you know, shout outs or things that you want to say about the podcast Urban Roots. Well, I'm going to pitch season two of New Angle Voice. Right now we're working on Ray Eames, Sarah Harkness and Jean Fletcher, a twofer, Asmara Meredith, who's really nobody really knows her. She's this wonderful, gay African American woman who created an entire community out on Long Island and whose house at Virginia State is finally being sort of restored and taken care of. Ada Louise Huxtable, women are frequently critics, and another woman that no one's ever heard of, Anna Wagner Ketchline, who invented Concrete Block. Hey, can I can I give a quick shout out? I would be remiss if I left here without, if I left here without giving a shout out to Trudy Sammier, Willis Seidenberg, and Cindy Olnik of Save As podcast, because they like those guys make you like happy every time you're you're listening to Save As and the way that they communicate and they answer, ask questions of their of those who are sitting across from them is amazing. So yeah, I'm gonna plug. We lost Rita for a second, but I'm glad we got most of her shout out in there, because correct, the hosts of Save As are all really, really great. And I think maybe what I will do to close things out is do my quick pitch, which is please join us for the other events for Preservation Month. We have a webinar on May 17th related to Brown versus Board of Education. And then there is an additional event with six of our previous Aspire Award winners. And all of this is available, including more information about our speakers here today on savingplaces.org slash preservation hyphen month. And I hope you'll join us for the other content that we'll be hosting on Saving Places as well. Thank you, everyone, so much for being here today. And I look forward to hopefully meeting you in person one day. Thank you. Thanks, everybody. It's great to meet all the rest of you. You know, it's really great, terrific, wonderful work. Bye.