 Still says green room. There we go. Welcome everyone. This is breeder syndicate and today we have CSI Humboldt and our coach not so dog So I hope everyone's stoked. So this is gonna be a good one So we're gonna be talking today about breeding goals not so you want to take it away and run with the topic Yeah, sure. So I mean the last few episodes or whatever We've been chatting a little bit about like breeding history and various aspects of it We talked a little bit about terms and we thought maybe it would be better to chat about Something that's not talked about too often, which is like what are your goals when you take two things and you cross them together What are you hoping that each parent might give the children of that and then talk a little bit about like sort of the state of where things are and what's popular and methods and things like that so Yeah, I mean that's kind of where we're gonna bring it Obviously this is the first time we've had three people on it So it's a little different super stoked that our buddy was willing to come on and join us because he is one of the most prolific Breeders that I know of so he's lots of it. He has lots of experience Success failures all that type of stuff. So we're pretty excited to have him on and To be able to chat it up about this subject. So we're just gonna kind of get started What do you want to start at? You know, maybe maybe we could just start at sort of like You know, maybe we could just start at breeding goals Yeah, you know, so maybe we'll start with there's a lot of people out there today And this is this is a legitimate thing to do But I think it's a little too common maybe where oh we just lost anyway So hopefully he pops back on but we a lot a lot of breeding today is You know people crossing two things that they don't you know that people most people don't have access to Right and then when you buy that when you buy that hybrid you're hoping to find You know one of those cuts that you don't have access to right and they consider elite Hopefully find it a little something that they can they can consider elite, right? So maybe a really really good example. That's like fairly recent Yeah, somehow Caleb was Was perfect for the 30 minutes and then within 30 seconds of joining he got booted. So hopefully you'll pop back on in a minute But yeah You know, well, maybe we'll talk about like for instance Skittles for a second So, you know Skittles comes out Skittles starts winning a bunch of awards The Skittles crew held on to Skittles pretty tight for a bit. So I get emerald cup and some different other events People buying hybrids of it was literally the only way that they could get a hold of it Right and so that's one of the way that's one of the things that drives breeding and some in some instances something gets famous Could be Skittles could be cookies could be Kush could be any number of different things and then Most people don't have access to that cut because maybe it's hoarded or maybe the circles are still pretty tight or whatever and so The pricing and the desirability for people to buy seeds of that thing become pretty high. Yeah Supply and demand how it always works. Yeah, it's supply and demand basically and so that that is driven Actually a lot of breeding Because you're just you're just offering up, you know, hey, you can't get the cut But you know, maybe you'll find something in Skittles by TK that you'll like Yeah, you know and that that drives a lot of breeding and so that's kind of been like one of them The modern ways that people do things is that they're mashing together a bunch of famous cuts Yeah, it was certainly the the the revolution certainly happened with feminized breeding and It allows you to eliminate males for the most part And read you could take two very famous cuts and mash them together And so that sort of started this era of like I'm gonna take a famous cut I'm gonna try to reverse it and I'm gonna put, you know, however many 10 or 20 other famous cuts in the room with it Mm-hmm and boom now I have all these different lines You know, so that's kind of that's one of the the more modern ways that people do things but a long time ago And by long I mean say 12 or 13 years ago because I think yeah, Matt can clear this up But I think 0809, you know, that was sort of like the first era that people started reversing females Yeah, that's gonna be right around that 0708. I would say that some of the first people to do it would be OG rascal Matt himself CSI There wasn't very many people doing it. The technology wasn't very well known at that point in time But previous to 12 years ago or 13 years ago Everybody used males Yeah, that was the you use males. So we'll talk a bit about males because that's sort of where You know, that was the state of breeding for the longest time. Yeah, you know and One of the things about males that was that's a lot harder than taking two elites that you already know people like two females that are already awesome and crossing them together is males don't give you nearly the same level of What's the best way to describe you Trace that you can sense we use we use the feet we consume the females and We only really use males for breeding. So Males, you know, what traits they're gonna pass on was a lot more mysterious. Yeah, right? So what people use to do is let's say that you have some females that you think are amazing and You know, you want to cross them back in the day you would have to cross it to a male And see what and grow actually grow out the beans and see what that male gate Yeah, right and sometimes people would take like let's say for instance, you know You might take four or five different males. Yeah, cross them separately to the same female and Then grow out each batch Run each batch of progeny. These two these two males. I don't like what they gave to their kids That's not what I'm looking for. Yeah, but male three male feet three through the traits that I'm looking for Right. Yeah. So a lot of times it was pretty laborious in the sense that you didn't really know which one you wanted to work with Until you started growing their kids. Yeah, and that's that's Typically how most breeders do it and that's how most breeders have done it Throughout time. Yeah, so breeding used to be a much more time-consuming process Yeah in that regard to find things out, you know and You know, so so that's kind of how that's kind of how things started, but there was a lot of Throw some pollen on your favorite females And see what happens, right? A lot of things people don't that people take for granted when it comes to males first Is that there is one one single thing that you will use for selection on a male? Like I only select males that are sturdy, you know Or I only select males that have hollow stems because that's gonna tell me it's gonna breed the way I want But back in the day. Yeah, you had to run the progeny to see what traits are gonna be bred for it's not males don't have that that a high terpene content like females so even if it did even if you have a male that you can smell the terpenes on it Doesn't necessarily mean it's gonna breed that way. It's just an expression. It's just an expression. So You know, there's um, you know, and so maybe maybe we'll talk about a few really famous lines Just because they're they're they're famous so everybody should know about them and this is what people back in the day So now what's very common is people mishmash a bunch of famous stuff together And then they sell it and they're hoping that people will find some nice plants or some elites or some whatever in their progeny Yeah, but most breeding is not done like that In cannabis and especially in other areas most breeding is I have traits from this line that I want there he is You made it back. Can you hear us? He's back. He's smiling it. Okay. So man, so you know, um Most breeding back in the day Was you would take you would have two lines And you would have certain traits from each line that you were hoping to combine into one line Right that was kind of that was kind of the goal. So maybe we'll take something like Like nl5 haze because it's super famous and we chatted about it before So, you know, there was this haze plant. It took 18 to 24 weeks. It didn't form the greatest buds But it had great high it had a great great turf profile It had a bunch of stuff and they were trying to figure out how to make it semi reasonable to grow And so they picked this nl plant which had basically no smell But had a lot a lot of crystal and a lot of You know a lot a lot of resin a lot of good structure and it took way way way less time So they were trying to blend The flavor and the effect and the stretchiness of the haze With the resin content the shorter flowering time and the bud structure of the nl Yeah, right and that was kind of the goal they mashed them together And then you know another point we should probably make is that The more traits you're trying to find from each parent line in the children the harder it is Yeah You know talking about this yesterday It's really really hard to select for more than one or two traits in cannabis because it has so many fucking traits Traits we don't talk about like root One of the main ones we don't talk about is root expressions Different different root sizes different root hairs, you know There's so many different expressions and you really can only breed for a few traits in cannabis at a time So, yeah, it makes it tough. I mean there was a there was a line that Uh that shanti baba released a long time ago It used to be called peacemaker. It was also called great white shark now. It's called shark shock. I think And uh, you know, it was it's skunk it's skunk by white widow And I ran through a few hundred of those seeds. I really liked it It I found some incredibly potent pot But all the potent stuff didn't taste like much And all the stuff that was really skunky didn't get me high very much Yeah, and I kept trying to find one that had both But I couldn't You know, I still liked it I kept one for a long time that was really really potent But it kind of tasted like it didn't have bad flavor. It just kind of tasted like like good smoke Yeah, that was about it, right? And so, um, you know, most people they don't talk today about like You know, and maybe Caleb can jump in on this too, but you know, when you're looking at two different things Right, if you're gonna cross skittles by this, what do you want each? What are you hoping that maybe each parent might give The seeds might give the children that you are excited about like what are your goals? And that's kind of like the theme of what we want to talk about today is like breeding goals Oh, we lost them again So, um, you know, but I teed him up to start talking and then he disappears, right? So, um, you know But anyway, so I guess I'll chat about more He's there. He just doesn't have video right there Yeah, your video is gone, but you're here You can hear me. Yeah, I can hear you. I just can't see you sir My phone's acting up all kinds. I even have a thing. This is warning. It looks like you're b So i'm thinking that's battery is overheating Oh, wow. Yeah, so maybe try audio without the video Okay, okay. Yeah, we'll try it this way Shouldn't shouldn't be too hard on it that way. Oh, right when connections get low We'll cut the video. So maybe you've got some like humble style 80s connections that uh, so maybe maybe audio maybe audio will work Yeah, my audio too. Yeah, my connection is actually weak. I don't know why yeah, can you hear us well? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I can hear and see you just So basically I was question what I was talking about right before is Sort of like when you when people cross things What are the ideas and what are the hopes behind what they're looking for to for each parent to give? Right, what are the traits they're looking there or they're hopeful that the the parent might give right You know and so one of the things that One of the things that kind of I think separates CSI from a lot of other people is that A lot of people cross things And never test them and they just release them to the public, right? Yeah But if you if you go back on On CSI's page You can go back years and see him running crosses of his own hybrids for a long time And what that does is that actually gives you an idea Of what the parents you're using throw in their progeny And how they breathe like continually how they breathe which ones are consistent breeders Which ones are a mess and are all over the place You know, there's some things out there that it might be amazing clones That breed like crap You know, they don't they don't transfer the qualities of the mother cut into its children very much And so breeders naturally when they find things that work they tend to go back to them Right, right I mean most people Generally want what I consider mythical plants They want plants that are high yield high potency extremely flavorful just like you were talking about you know They want everything in one plant and Not only one plant, but they want all the seeds to be everything And that's not the reality of it, you know, yeah like with your giddles example I mean It if I'm bringing with skittles my goal Is to take the best characteristics of skittles, which would be the flavor and the smell And hopefully incorporate that into something With another desirable characteristic from the other parent, which would be maybe like yield or potency, you know what I mean So what's some of the other lines you've worked with that that you feel are special for breeding For your purposes Say what what What's some of the other lines you've worked with that you feel have special traits and characteristics that maybe maybe they That breed true for it that you really enjoy that you found over the years Oh, I mean, you know, I love that love the Urkels the whole family Yeah I love triangle kush, you know, og coach in general. I think it's just you know, a great building block And then the chem family You know, which you know, most people know My opinion on that. I think it's just really chem 91 and everything past that is a chem hybrid or polyhybrid Yeah, I agree Yeah, I uh, you know, it's a it's a delicate subject, but I think that uh, you know Plants don't lie and when you've grown a lot of these chem chem plants for a long time and especially cross them and see what's in them Uh, it does seem that way, you know, uh, you know one of the things that uh That came from me, but I don't think anybody has used it more than than uh, Caleb is Um, the the Mendo perps is probably a good example Because the Mendo perps is it's fast. It's fairly fast finishing It's got crazy colors in it. It's got very unique terps Uh, but it's pretty low potency Uh, you know in regard and so, you know, um One of the one of the you know, one of the things that uh, that he he released that that you know Got a named cut was this obama kush Where he married uh, Mendo p to uh, bubba kush And the bubba added a bunch of frost it added a bunch of structure it added much more potency And then the Mendo p seemed to add a lot of pretty color And gave the bubba some different unique smells That's a really good example of like taking the strengths from one plant And crossing it to something else where those strengths or weaknesses Right, right. Yep, you know, um You know and then you know, there's things that there's things that interest people So what I always recommend people do when they're breeding Because breeding is a lot of work And it's time consuming and there's a certain amount of failure involved Is if you have goals or you're passionate about certain plants you're using Then that to me, that's the coolest kind of breeding You know, if you're like, I want to take these traits from this plant And I want to see if I can get these traits and these traits from these two plants into one plant Right And you know, when you're passionate about something, you know, as as Caleb just mentioned he just rolled through You know favorites and he might be able to explain at length why each one of those strains You know why you know, there's probably a combination of traits that he likes in each one of those And there's also probably a combination of not only those traits he likes but They pass those traits onto the kids You know pretty consistently You know So I don't know. I mean, maybe you want to like one of the things you've told me in the past Caleb is that Of a lot of the things that you use the chem 91 seems to be one of the most consistent breeders for adding potency to its progeny right, right and you know, uh On that one, I uh I also think that You know, and I've told you both this, you know, plenty of times I I have a strong suspicion that I think the chem 91 itself is an s1 from its original source in colorado um So I think that might have something to do with the With the you know, it's propensity to pass on that strength Because it's it's kind of like a bottlenecked s1 already, you know, and uh You know, um Anytime you go, you know s1 s2 et cetera et cetera, you know things I think are more stable and easier to pass Forward as long as they're not like a recessive Yeah Yeah, but um, it it's very consistent and up in the potency on whatever you cross it to You know, whether it's, you know, feminized or read regular seeds or whatever You know, what are some of the traits you like about bubble gum? I know that's one you use extensively and and Your advice, uh, I used it for the bubble berry. I'm super stoked on it. How it breeds I mean, I love the bubble gum cut because it's one of the Best plants I've ever grown out outdoors. Um Just Almost mold proof, you know, yeah, and it's extremely frosty has a sweet, you know bubble gum smell um And it's just a nice all-around plant now. Yeah, does it does it compare with today's, you know Hypey stuff and probably not but You know for for, you know, somebody who's farming outdoors and You know looking for something, uh, you know, that's, you know, fairly stable and You know, uh mold prone Or mold proof I mean, you know, those are some of my favorite characteristics of it Yeah, for sure And that's that's one of the things that we should probably mention too is that So if you're really if you're passionate about breeding and you're trying to combine certain traits I mean amongst us, you know, we might back and forth A lot of different ideas and get excited about a lot of random stuff But there's also this thing in the back of your mind in which in order to be a successful breeder People will have to want to buy your stuff and have success with it So a lot of these practical traits Like he was just talking about Great outdoor plant highly mold resistant that type of thing Those things can be really important, right because You know, uh people want like as Caleb was mentioning earlier people want By a pack of seeds and that to be the best growing best yielding greatest structure crazy turps You know super potent. They want all the beans to be that way Which is rare But then if even if it had that but it molded like crazy people would be pissed Yeah, you know, so if if you if there's problems inherent in a line like High mold or hermaphrodism or something else like that You can better believe that people are going to focus on that Rather than this is the most potent flavorful fastest growing thing I've grown in forever I found more bananas and a couple of the big of the biggest colas rotted. Now. I think it's a shit cross You know, it it makes it difficult, you know, uh, because there's a certain amount of commercial satisfaction that's required Right and oftentimes it's the environment that causes the problems Yeah, that is very true You know or you know, I can't I can't even imagine. I'm not a I'm not a public breeder But both Matt and Caleb are I the amount of you know the amount of Responses they get of like hey these seeds didn't pop, right? Or they died a few days after I cracked them or they turned out like like shit and I blame you You know, I mean most of the time sometimes sometimes it is, you know Of the seed maker, but a lot of times it's breed. It's it's user error Yeah, I've never I've never gotten any comments like that mine. Everything's always perfect. Everything's always perfect You know and and we don't need to we don't need to name names or anything like that because that's not the point of it But there was a super famous line that was released a number of years ago That was very expensive and very hyped up and the people that made it didn't even bother to do a germ test Yeah And a germ test for people that don't know is if you're a breeder You take 50 or 100 or 200 of your seed And you pop them a few times in paper towels or dirt or whatever and you make sure That there's nothing funky and they germinate well. Yeah You know, there's occasionally crosses you make that don't germ well Forget about that amount and seeing issues And so there was there was a line that was released that they didn't even do a germ test on and then people bought expensive seeds And then 70 percent of them didn't even pop And it was so consistent that it wasn't really user error because when you start getting just hundreds and hundreds of complaints about the same issue Yeah, um a germ test is something that takes, you know less than a week to really figure out Yeah, what do you think causes? What do you what do you think causes the? You know poor germ nation rates like that That you know, you know the I mean matt you can speak to it if you want You know, uh, what's it called the the sperm uh, blah blah blah that's in the uh in the shell might not be developed properly So it wasn't getting proper food. It could be minor cracks. I mean sure there's all kinds of fucking reasons But some of it would probably be what recessive genetics People are calling it out in in the comments because it was obvious what it was it was candy rain and i'm not trying to diss anyone but one of the things One of the things that I was going to say is that you you can inbreed in cannabis More so than you can in other things a little bit um, but When you start inbreeding too much and you're and your hybrids are a mishmash of the same four or five cuts over and over and over again You will on occasions start to get undesirable recessives Or undesirable traits that pop up and one of those traits could be like some mutant funky seeds Like blueberry I mean, yeah But you know Caleb can talk about it too, but you know because he does a lot of s ones and he's even done some s twos But as you start going to s three s four s five Things start getting significantly more difficult The plants start getting way weaker the germination rates become a lot tougher Um, so there's a real limit there, uh, you know in in how far you can inbreed before you start to hit problems Um, and I haven't inbred that deep, but uh, Caleb Caleb has a little bit more than I have in terms of experimentation. So um You know, uh, yeah, there's there's issues with inbreeding you can combine undesirable traits and have them become a little bit more dominant You know even even in s twos Uh, there's a lot of plants that will not produce pollen You know, they won't that's a problem. Yeah, they won't move forward when reversed, of course, you know, yeah, yeah Yeah And so, you know reversals reversals have become sort of the norm It's flipped in this in the 60s 70s 80s 90s and the first decade of the 2000s The all breeding for the most part was was what we call regular breeding using males and females You know the only feminized breeding that happened was typically accidental Uh, you know hermaphrodism or something along those lines bagged seeds that type of thing and uh, you know, and then the revolution happened Uh, you know 13 12 13 years ago where the technology on how to reverse cannabis became more well known And now I would say it's flipped And the percentage of people that use as actual males is extremely low And the vast majority of the seed game today is feminized in some way, you know Um, and it's a really it's a really valuable tool But as both of uh my co-hosts today can express Uh, you know, we were joking before we came on live is that you know, when I use traditional males and a lot of my Breeding I never had a single breeding failure Yeah, um where when you reverse things You can have failure You can have not very much pollen. You can have sterile pollen You can have the pollen sacks not open and you have to go through a lot of manual labor to extract Using screens and stuff the pollen from the pollen sacks Um, you know in the old days you have one male in a room. You're guaranteed you're going to pollinate the entire room Right. Um, yep in today's world, uh, you know, Caleb was just chatting about it. He might use 10 or 12 Uh females that are marked for reversal Yeah In the hopes that a few of them are you know dump a lot And some a couple of them dump some and a few dump a little and then you've got a few failures Um, and so it's it's uh, it's pretty difficult because it's not consistent Um, you know people have great success reversing a plant once and they do the same thing again And for whatever reason it doesn't work Yeah, so the the you know, we have a lot of theories as to why Is the mix too strong or too weak? Is there a range of of the mix that leads to You know pollen dumping with some strains versus others But it's mostly like observational because we all don't have labs to really analyze why the failure went wrong Yeah, um You know and uh, you know it also leads to You know in some cases, uh, you know people get mad at hermaphrodism But there's some plants that don't herm And therefore they are a bitch to reverse Right um like I was telling you guys, uh You know just just a couple days ago I had to chop down a whole room at four weeks flower because You know, I reversed eight, you know, nice big bushes of old betsy and None of them produced any pollen whatsoever on the way I do things I I don't really have a fallback a lot of the times And so if it fails, I just have to chop a whole room down and start over again and That's just the price of doing business But old betsy not reversing kind of made me sad because she's one of my favorite old girls You know, so yeah, and you know, there's some there's some lines, uh, you know There's a lot of uh, there's a lot of people That have tried to reverse various diesel and sour cuts They're notorious For not giving you commercial viable amounts of pollen to produce a bunch of seed miserable People have had been having really great results with some of kaleb's tk crosses Um, but you know, kaleb can speak to this, but I think he failed two or three times Three times Yeah, three times and then when he did even have success It was probably like a fifth of the success that he would normally have on a good reversal Yeah um You know, so there's there's a lot of that like there's there's there's failure a lot of a lot of breeding failure used to be You breed something and then the progeny the children don't give you what you were hoping for Yeah, but in feminized breeding there's a lot of actual failure to fertilize Right, you know that goes on even by Extremely experienced people that do it all the time and for a living and have real Good techniques down and have done it a bunch and had a lot of success You you know, I'd like to add too though. Um That when breeding feminized You tend to have a better idea of And in general kind of more consistent better results With your feminized, you know progeny Then like a normal a normal breeding Where you know, you can observe certain things about a male plant. You really can't See what it's going to pass forward whereas with the fems You you know your girl on the left, you know your girl on the right, you know It does tend to kind of give you a a little bit better of a Idea of what you're going to get You know on that f1 hybrid, you know, absolutely. Yeah Yeah, I mean so like if you were to talk to breeders Say that we've been talking about, you know in the last few podcasts in the 80s And touch on the 90s and stuff I think most of them would tell you that the most important the most important plants they had in their rooms Uh were the consistent males Yeah, like once you found a consistent male back then you tended to cross it to everything Because you were so stoked. I mean a recent example would be You know, uh matt found a really good blue bonnet male. Yeah And he was really happy with it and he was really happy with the with the traits that it passed on to the progeny Um and because males are so much harder to find ones that pass the traits you want They tend to get used over and over again It's really hard to move on sometimes It gets really hard to move on and so, you know, you have you can look at some of these old seed banks Like, you know nevel stuff or some stuff in the 90s And you know, they have a they have a handful of males Um really a handful and they use those handful of males with everything right Because you know Failure, you know failure and means that like you get something that the customer doesn't want and that just ends up being a big ziploc in your fridge Yeah You know, you know, are you you test something out and you feel like it's got too many herms And it might affect your reputation even though you think it's good weed And you don't want to deal with all the complaints out there and it ends up being a big ziploc in your fridge You know, maybe it'll be a project you want to use later. Maybe it won't and so you know, uh One of the big aspects of this that we want to chat about is that you know, the the term breeder is used loosely Uh, and this isn't a disney one But it encompasses basically anybody that wants to cross and make seeds And you know, there's some people Um, you know, there's not very many of them but both Caleb and matt are two of them that they are actually they actually do what I consider to be traditional breeding In the sense that they take plants that they found from previous breedings and they use them in further work Right. There's a lot. There's a you know, and and everybody listening right now You can have the power to affect breeding, right? Because the breeding game right now is crossing a lot of hybrids together And releasing them to the public with absolutely no work So a lot of breeders are crossing famous things to to each other They're giving them a sexy name And some good packaging and they're releasing them and they're not actually popping them themselves Okay, and they're not doing any further work, which is fine But then what happens is is that when you take somebody like like, you know, Caleb who runs a bunch of his own work He gets to see What varieties in my collection breed well and which ones don't Which ones throw traits that I like and which ones are all over the place and crazy And that knowledge Informs the next steps you want to make Mm-hmm You know so for instance, um, you know, uh, Caleb has a a plant. Uh, they call t1000 Right, uh, which is uh, you know, it's it's a named cut from uh From one of his lines. I believe it's urkel and tk, correct Yep triangle kush times purple urkel Triangle kush times purple urkel and he found, you know, it was found in in hunts of that line And you know, I I saw on his instagram and he's told me and stuff, you know, he's reversed that he's Taken that cut and he's used it in further work That was one of my that was my one of my buddy tiger farm selection, uh from you know up there in portland Sure Yeah from my work Yeah, so it you know, sometimes sometimes it's stuff you find in your own work. Sometimes it's stuff your buddies find in your work But you know, he Caleb liked that one enough that he's now doing further work within his own lines and so The most effective and the cheapest and the most profitable way to grow seeds right now sadly Is to make the cross give it a name give it some cool packaging and sell it and never do any further work yourself That's a pretty profitable path The other path which is you test and you grow rooms full of your own stuff And you try to look for traits amongst that stuff that you want to keep working with Um, that's a lot more sustainable breeding Because it gives you the ability to you know, uh do multi-stage breeding which is real what real breeding is really Um, but it's time consuming and it's costly and it takes a while And you have to have a goal in mind Right, um in in that regard And so, you know, I don't know if he's I don't know I don't know if you're are you selling you're probably selling the t1000 hybrids now, aren't you? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah You made them a while ago. You know, yeah, and so you know He's got you know, how many breeders out there are doing two or three or four step processes Yeah, not a lot Yeah, but that's real breeding you look at dog breeders or you look at fish breeders or you look at corn or anything else and You know the idea that you just make hybrids and sell them and never Try to like advance in any way Is not normal in breeding Most breeding has goals Yeah, some of my favorite projects, you know That i'm working on now um are the s2 projects where you know, I've you know grown out 100 plus You know plants of you know at my s1s and made selections from those and now i'm doing s2s I'm doing back crosses to the moms. I'm making hybrids between, you know, s2s of the various, you know You know s1s like, you know taking the percol s1 cross it to the you know triangle kush or chem dog s1 and you know Kind of making new versions of those same hybrids that I did with the original parent cuts But you know, they're going to be unique and hopefully a lot more, you know stable and uniform You know versus the previous generation Yeah, there's a lot of work, you know Going into all that Yeah, no shit and so we could you know, maybe one thing we could talk about and these are These are also observations from kala, but he's running out a bunch of you know, uh chem 91 s1s and You know, we all think that it it already is an s1 And what leads us to think that is the lack of Of variability in the line, right? It passes potency It passes looks that look very similar to it or there's a small range in there And so you kind of you kind of get what you get with that, right? But then he's also done a thing and I got to go up and see it where he's Reversed, you know, mendopee and he's grown out a bunch of mendopee s1s and uh That has so much diversity in it that You know, he's made comments to me in the past where you could give out seeds s1s of Mendo perps to various different people and they could make their own selections and the lines would be extremely different from one another Because there's there's so much variation in there. Um, you know, you know, and then Maybe we should make a comment about s1s because there's so many clone only elites and there's not There's not lines available of many of these things anymore Most of the stuff that we hold In our collections You only have one cutting of that line You don't have any sisters of it and you don't have any boys of it You don't have any way to look within the line And so one of the benefits Of doing s1s with that kind of thing is it's really the only way to look within the genetic Without another genetics, you know genes coming in there and altering it, right? So You know, so that's why we didn't know how narrow the chem 91 gene pool was until He s1d it and grew out a few hundred of them and we saw that it was narrow You don't know how wide mendo purple was until you did that and grew out a bunch of them And then you were like, oh my god, there's a different stuff in here And so s1s S1s give people selfing gives people an ability to look through a line when they only have one example one female example of the line itself And so it's one of the ways that modern breeders get to save and preserve old lines like a lot of famous stuff that Caleb has run recently like mendo purple or uh snow Or trinity or chem 91 or you know urkel or you go down the list And if you don't s1 it It's really hard to see What's in it by itself you can outcross it to other things and you can see what traits that are dominant that pass to the children And out crosses But if you really want to look within a line Most seed lines today, you know, most clone onlys are that they're clone only That's all you get So and a lot of these cuts Will start to interrupt a lot of these cuts for it, you know selfing You know, there there are all cuts that are you know as you well know You know mendo purposes over, you know, you sprouted that seed over 20 years ago You know, and a lot of these cuts are 30 40 years old So if we don't you know, stash away some s1 seed in that fridge, you know before it's too late Before those cuts, you know disappear Uh, yeah, we'll lose those genetic On that tangent, are you going to redo the the the old bets here? We're going to make another attempt at it I want to see real old bull rider stock pulled out of those s1s My my my problem is is I don't I have I only have rooms that are three four and six so, you know um It's hard doing some of these I wish I had like some single light rooms to do these things, right? Yeah, you know Because then it wouldn't be so much of an expense to You know Yeah, yeah face every time every time it fails. Yeah for sure And that might be that might be something good to talk about is that it's pretty amazing How much cool stuff we have to work with these days? Considering like most most normal breeders from other walks of life would laugh At the limited selection pool we pull from Uh, how many plants how many plants we get to run to make the next generation selections? You know prohibition and things like that have made a lot of breeding happen, especially in america inside So inside means you have electricity. You have a lot of lights. You have to cost money It's time all this different stuff. And so most breeders Have a million ideas in their head The ones that are passionate about it and their ability to realize those ideas is quite limited You know, uh, you might have a fridge full of of ideas and passion projects and whatever But you know most breeders, you know, you have to sell enough stuff while you're doing your passion To fund the passion part Right, right So for instance, you know, when I was doing a lot of breeding in the late 90s and early 2000s It was a terrible financial decision Uh, because I wasn't selling any seed. I was just giving it away to friends and it was just for my personal And back then cannabis was super expensive Well, at least other people made money off your shit. Yeah, well, but whatever but that's fine But it's just the matter of it's just the matter of like most people back then weren't willing to take a four lighter When you could get, you know, when weed was 4500 a pound or something Yeah, and instead of getting six or eight pounds of sellable cannabis out of that four lighter To get thousands of seeds that you, you know, uh, You know, didn't even have an outlet for You know, and that's another thing that we should talk about too for a second is the fact that Most seed breeding in america Did not have an american outlet to be able to get it to the public Right. So there was a lot of private breeding going on and there was a lot of like, you know There was some passion going on and different things like that, but the public's asset access to it was tiny Yeah, the 90s and the early 2000s, which is when I did most of my stuff I don't think there was american small american seed companies that were getting it out You would you would have to make them here send them over to europe and then they would have to send them back to here Yeah, that's so right. So there was companies like there was companies. That's why like certain americans partnered with europeans Dude worst decisions I ever made in my life over there, you know, lots of american breeders think that way, you know I mean for instance in the 90s You know, uh, the blueberry stuff dj short, you know, he partnered with sag martha first and then dutch passion And it doesn't sound like he was very pleased with either one of those things But um, you know, it uh, it at least allowed if you didn't partner with somebody in europe Nobody had access to your stuff the forum has changed it a little bit Because it at least allowed private dms and some and some low level trading and stuff But even like yeah, even matt back in the day I mean, you know, you you would have a web address that had the netherlands You know, I'll comment on that real quick back in the day I get this question all the time the only reason that I have a dot nl address It wasn't because I was going to get more traffic because of it Obviously nobody types anything dot nl if you live in the u.s. But back then it was just a Just one more step to keep people from looking at me in the u.s. And and nowadays it's it's irrelevant So it's funny when people still americans use dot nl because they think it's some kind of special thing but but really, you know, the the ig era and You know the forum the forums a little bit and then instagram and then loosening laws and stuff It allowed a lot of very small time private breeders To be able to uh To get out there, you know, um, and there was some people back in the day 20 years ago When you know when kaleb and shah and some others and I first met At some harvest parties and such, you know, the people that were internet famous back then were like vik hi and uh dj short and you know the The you know the brothers grim and the c99 work Um, and they well they got famous because there was there was such a there was such a limited pool Right. It was like it, you know, there was some there was a few canadians Um, there was a few americans it got famous on the forums But there wasn't now it's like anybody can you know can breed seeds in their closet Or a bedroom or something and they can have an ig handle and they can get their work out there And they can spread their work to friends and they can sew test grows and people can see pictures And so now it's become it's become a lot more common But 20 years ago You know, uh, the vast majority of breeders I knew in mendon humble and stuff were private You had if unless you've met them you had no way Of getting access to any of it like zero You know if you were in north carolina or illinois or colorado or something like that like You weren't going to meet the people in the triangle or the people in santa cruz or the people wherever Um, and so I you know the combination of reversals And the combination of you know, instagram and some other forms of communication really exploded The small seed breeder Yeah In a way that it never happened before And I don't know I don't even know that you know people would even know who csi or riot would be without those two innovations They still don't know who riot is but it's all right You know, we're we're about let's see for uh, 50 minutes in so if we want to start doing some questions that are, uh, You know If you want to start answering any Caleb, we could do that or if you want to talk anymore on the breeding topic We could do that I'm okay with whatever All right, well, I can tell you dude that, uh uh Questions for you Predominate the questions this week. So I'll try to do every week. Um, to be honest Yeah, even even the weeks that you're not here, uh, there's a bunch of stuff that people want to for us to ask because they know you um So maybe uh, you know, let's see. Let's talk about, um Here's a here's a basic one. What was your very first cut? And what what what is one of the cuts that you could say you'll hold closest to your heart amongst your current collection? Well, my very first cut um, was uh, northern lights from my dad and uh, he he gave he gave me that cut in In uh in 94 um And I had that one all the way up until I think 2002 and then stupidly lost it um But uh, the the the closest thing to that anymore is like Chem number chem dog number four, you know, yeah, that stuff is very similar to the old northern lights. I got from my dad um As far as favorites go I I always talk about it, you know Just just in case anybody has ever come across it But you know, my dad also gave me a around the same era This uriah cut and I mean that one is still one of my favorites And I think it might be possible to recreate something like it with like say a pintar kush a bit of og kush And maybe something super super Just piney lemony blah blah blah even more so than og um I don't know but uh as far as what I have Uh still I mean I love uh You know the purple indica that you know My my good buddy Fletch, you know got in the early 2000s and I'm pretty sure that cut dates back to the 80s um Yeah, you know up there up there in portland and washington and all that um, but that one's that one's extremely unique, but then again, uh You know, you already, you know, I'm a fan of the purple. So I absolutely we you know love francis's Mendo purple I mean not those and then uh You know, uh, you know, I've I've had urkel for damn near 20 years now and you know She she's she's a tried and true favorite. So if I lost any of those three I'd be a little bit upset Yeah, I'll take the next one because it's super simple. Uh Can you please confirm the timeline for super skunk? Uh, I can it's real that one's really easy It was released by neville in the final year that he owned the seed bank outright Uh, so super skunk was released to the public in the 1990 the seed bank catalog Uh, he took a maple leaf indica, uh, which is supposedly called uh afghan tea and he crossed that to one of uh sam skunk man skunk lines And he said that put the funk back in the skunk Um, and it became a it had a it had a great name. It had a great look Uh, it became super popular in the 90s Um, so super skunk was uh, when people talk about all I had, you know, mid 80s super skunk or whatever I'm not saying that there wasn't skunk aromas out there But the actual super skunk name came about in the 1990, uh, uh seed bank catalog Uh, this one is for kayla, but it's a pretty good question Uh, do you feel that males have a place in modern cannabis breeding or are reversals the future and why? Oh, I absolutely do. Um, I'm I've never been one of those types to rule out anything So I think there's a place for feminized seeds and you know, feminized breeding and I think there's just a value as valuable a place for regular breeding, um So Absolutely, I mean You know I I started out doing just as much regular work as feminized work I just didn't really capitalize on selling You know much of the regular work because it kind of just took an aside Because you got to select out all those damn males Yeah, right? Yeah Um The next question I'm not actually not going to have Caleb answer. I'm just going to make a joke about it And it's it's nothing against the it's a great question But could Caleb please talk about interesting things he learned from any or every line He's selfed So you're going to have to wait for Caleb's 10 10 volume, uh, Macom opus on every line. He's selfed because Uh, he's constantly uh selfing things over the last 10 years or so and that's such a That's uh, that's uh, we could just talk for hours There's just dozens of cuts that he's done that to at this point. So it's a little too wide. It is a good question But boy, it really is a novel Um, I will say I will say I take uh pictures Um, and you know, they help with mental notes on more or less every single s1 I grow so I'm I think I'm headed up to about two million pictures strong as far as you know The the s1 s1 pictures are going I'll ask this one again because it got a lot of votes Are you going to try or continue to try to reverse the Irene kush? um I don't know. I mean, yeah, when you get when you get 20 s1 seeds from half a half of a light uh That's a little rattle And and also, I don't know if people know but um The the Irene, you know for half a thousand watt light produce 20 seeds but the The the triangle kush, uh that got the side pollination from that in the bed next to it Produced like 750 seeds So the pollen was viable. It just didn't pollinate itself Very interesting. Yeah, so and that's an interesting statement too and that Um, even when people get viable pollen, uh, there's some cuts out. There's some cuts out there The mac would be one. Um, there's some others that mac could talk about that you have viable pollen And it pollinates everything around it just fine and it doesn't pollinate that female plant very well at all There's some plants that have very few pistols on them And the pistols don't seem to be doing a very good job of transferring that that pollen grain to Where it needs to go to fertilize the egg and create a seed Um, so there's some interesting stuff in that Uh, this is another really good question for kala, but I think uh, it's pretty valuable I'm interested to hear inspectives speak on growing large populations in relatively small spaces Hmm, I mean ideally I like to do No more than 36 plants per light when I'm growing large populations of like feminized seeds out And you know, I'll do that in a four to six k room. So, you know, I'm I'm doing 100 to 200 plants generally Um It just it just gives you a better better idea of you know, what's in that genetic pool? um, I have Done like single light, you know rooms where I pack in like 80 plants You know under the one light and I flower them out, you know, you know, four or six inches tall, whatever and uh, I mean you know For for anybody limited on space. I mean that's an excellent way to go I mean, especially if you're doing them in like small six inch pots Where, you know, you can make selections out of that larger pool, you know, and uh, Then you can pull them out and you know You know revedge them and you know actually have, you know, have fairly heavily selected stock to work with so You know, you don't have to grow your plants out in a five gallon pot or 10 gallon pot or whatever You don't have to grow them big to know what you want. You know, I mean if you're looking for potency uh smell flavor You know any of the the really main criteria, you don't need just big plants. I mean, yeah Selecting infrastructure or hemp Maybe you need a little more room, right? Yeah, so I'll add to that. I'll add to that as well Caleb has a little bit different style than I do and that and that he grows uh Small seed plants like that fairly tightly packed together and just so people know When he's talking about doing 36 plants a light Um that generally it's it's on like a a slight, you know, one of those uh old tables like a four and a half by four and a half kind of area Uh, so it's kind of a six. It's kind of a six wide, you know, six deep type of scenario there Um, if you're I used to do it slightly differently than that Um, I would I would grow out a bunch of seed. I would take cuttings from that seed As soon as multiple cuttings had rooted I would ditch the seed itself because I found when you were growing regular stuff the seed energy I didn't want to know what it did as a seed. I wanted to know what it did as a clone Because sometimes that can be different and I wanted to see its growth structure as a clone Um And what he mentioned is is that when you grow up things too big and you flower them And all of a sudden you get 10 or 12 pounds or something and you have a lot of booth Or average not everything not everything is is a home run, you know, even among the lines that that produce great plants There's still a lot of You know and so then you end up with a lot of s So what I would do is somewhat similar to him In that I would throw away the seed plant and then I would pack tables with you know Four to six inch tall cuts and I would flower the cut because as Caleb just mentioned If I got a half ounce or three quarters of an ounce or an ounce off a plant And I got to see what the cola looked like there. That's all I needed, you know Yeah, you know and and you you you would get enough of the turps You'd get enough of the smell you could you know if you have a quarter seven to ten grams to smoke That'll give you enough indication That you need to That you can go back and grow some of those selections In a in a larger in a larger scenario grow more of them grow them bigger see there see there Because that way if you get a bunch of bunk, it's only five to 14 grams of bunk per per plant You know and you get enough and that's what you need to start doing in order to really run through numbers Uh in in that regard and have it only take up so much space The other issue that happens and you know, I have a different method than Caleb, but it's a universal problem Is when you start growing out large numbers to test And you don't want to lose something you end up needing to keep backups Of the things you're flowering so you don't lose them Yeah, right. There's basically two methods you can either Keep backups which is time consuming and takes up a bunch of space in your veg Or you can start pulling if you grow in pots You could start pulling out small pots of things that you think are amazing when they're only part of the way through flowering And then revert that's kind of a european method and kind of and start reverting them back to veg You know But you know, it's you know, it's a real issue Because you know, it's happened to Caleb talks to me about it all the time is that you know You know, I grew a room of 240 plants And my two and my three favorites two of the cuttings didn't make it by the time I realized it was my favorite Yeah You know and so trying to save copies that you can go back and actually deal with and the space involved Is a real pain in the ass For lack of a better way to put it, uh It takes up, you know, you want to do a big hunt and you want to keep that thing around that means you got a big veg You know, there's a good question and I fully But Oh, I was just gonna add I fully with not so on Taking cuts off of the seed plants and growing the the cut the cuttings Versus the seed plants because seed plants will never give you an accurate representation of what that clone is going to become Past the seed stage so there's really I fully agree There's no reason to grow the seed plants themselves When you're just selecting for future, you know, you know clone stock That's that's going to give you the best. Yeah clones don't have a tap root You grow a bunch of seeds. They can be taller. They can be lankier They can have some more life energy in different ways and them than the clone And since you only get one shot at the seed That's why a lot of people like back in the day would want to grow seed outdoor Because the vigor contained within a seed plant would give you could give you a larger plant Uh, a bigger plant than a clone. Um, there's some famous clones My Maui cut does it the blue dream does it Green crack does it. There's some famous clones that despite being clones will give you huge plants outside Yeah, but if you went back to the 215 era five or six years ago A lot of the big giant gardens you would see on instagram, uh in terms of outdoor were all seed Right, but you got an eight or nine foot tall room with you know Thousand watt lights or something and all of a sudden you got some seed energy and the thing wants to be seven feet tall And you're doing bending and and trellising and and corralling of the plant and it's a huge pain in the ass You know So, you know, that's the you know, Caleb actually has had a pretty good method of Taking clones off of plants when they're a couple weeks into bloom Um, which a lot of people wouldn't do Um, but in that regard it The plants kind of freak out for a while because they're into flower But that's actually a benefit because one of the things you're trying to do when you're keeping clones in a different room for veg Is you want to keep them kind of small Until you figure out which ones are worth it Because there might you might have 180 clones and like you only care about six of them Right. Yeah, you don't know which you don't know which six So the end when they're when they're in flower it takes, uh, you know a good month Maybe even six weeks or so before they start vaging out of it. So you buy yourself some time keeping them in those flats I we actually just took a 12 flat to clones this week of tk abc f3 So yippie skippy to that Fuck yeah, the other thing I should mention just because Caleb's told me about it a bunch is that When you start judging plants on growth and structure and weight and frost and all that those are good things to judge on But a lot of the times, uh, he finds out his favorites end up being some shitty ass run Uh that wasn't very impressive didn't look very good. He wasn't very happy with it Never thought much of it and then you know him and his crew end up testing it Which is actually the the the part that matters at the end and they're like, oh man, this is special But you never would have thought it was special growing because it just looked like a it just looked like a run It looked like it was odd. It had funkiness to it It didn't have the greatest bud structure and then of course that's going to be like the tastiest One with the best hopping and I'm a huge fan of runs The strain In general, you know, I would say too that we could mention this because because you know, he laughed about it But really if you look at like Caleb's work with freak show or you look at the abc Or you look at uh, you know runs and things like that like what he's really talking about is like He's a huge fan of outliers He's a huge fan of things that are abnormal things that pop up in a population that might be rare Things that you know, uh, might not be that common, but then it popped up and you're like, oh, look at that little thing You know, what direction could I take that and strangely? you know, we should mention this too is that so I'll I'll stretch it out a little bit But if you go into the store any vegetable you buy in the store whether it's a tomato or a zucchini or whatever else That thing has been picked To grow because it yields well like for instance, let's take a tomato, right? The most important thing for a tomato for tomato growers is weight Color does the skin break? Does it rot in transit? You know all these can you stack it in transit? Can you stack it in transit? Does it bruise easily? All these factors are huge Taste and flavor and texture are way down on the list, right? So the whole reason why heirloom tomatoes made a comeback is because these things actually taste good Where when people were growing things for production, okay? Zucchini Anything you name it they're grown because the producer it it grows well for them, right? It produces a lot for the space cannabis is pretty unique in that The stuff that becomes really popular became really popular because consumers enjoyed it No one would ever in a million years pick any kind of og kush as a productive Viney small buds Doesn't hold itself up a pain in the ass to grow a weak root system All those things would prevent you from ever seeing it In most normal agriculture because they would eliminate it because it didn't have the qualities needed to be put to scale, right? People would want every you'd get blue dream Right because it's a fast growing vigorous thing that yields a ton doesn't take that long And so cannabis is a bit unique in that even like something like sour diesel Uh sour diesel is kind of tricky to grow well A lot of people find it finicky if you have too many bud sites on sour diesel It'll give you a lot of feathery almost weed Right, um, you know, there's a lot that goes on with that. So there's a lot of very famous strains That have really really crappy production traits Right, huh? The pump, you know all kinds of things, you know, um, you know, and so You know, so there's the you know matt way earlier and the thing was talking about root structure Which is not a very bred for trait There's certain plants that you grow in the same room that some plants drink like crazy And i'll use og cushions an example a lot of og cushions have typically weak root systems They don't grow vigorous root systems. So as a result, they can only drink so fast. So as a result, they only grow so fast So, you know, that's a consideration too is that cannabis has been I mean I'll tell you guys a funny story really quick when skittles first came out Uh, skittles is notorious for growing slow Right, uh, Caleb and I had had a mutual friend that made an ig post where he was like, you know in in october He's like i'm vegging these skittles for my next year's light depth. Hopefully they'll be three Hopefully they'll be three feet tall in six months Right where skittles might be like winning awards for its turps and winning awards for its extracts and everything else But try to get the thing higher than four feet tall outside Yeah, it's a slow growing bushy little hedge of a plant And so my point to that is that most of the famous strains that people like either for their turp profile or their high Wouldn't make the cut in normal agriculture because they don't have the growth traits Yeah, and it's really really difficult because that's what I was that's what made me think of it when I was joking about Caleb's love for Runtz is that a lot of times the the freak the mutant the one that grew short the one that was a pain in the ass to grow That one's the one that tastes amazing That's the one that will get people excited Right and the one that was like five feet tall and through huge colas all over it and grew like a champ and barely required any work That one ends up being a little bit more boring Right, and you're like man, I wish I could merge those two I can talk about that for a minute Caleb I swear the biggest biggest girls at least biggest feminized girls. I grow they always seem to have a little persuasion to hang in the balls I don't know if you notice that but the big girls. Yeah, women say that about me all the time I got a question for both of you that that I'll follow up with on After after I asked you guys so haze brothers and me and Caleb actually talked about this yesterday And I think me and me and not so talked about it a few days ago I know crybaby was a part of that haze brothers vintage california kush 1980s picture and high times In the 79 issue they talk of a new hybrid known as cush Indore cal across between hawaiian hash plant and tai specifically calling it kush by 79 They already knew of hindu. So what the fuck is this cali kush? Is it pure kush? The picture does look like the malibu in the article. They straight up say afghani skunk weed. It's been driving me crazy for 10 years Caleb anything I don't know well I can make a couple general comments So kush is a general term, right? Um, there's a huge mountain range. It's the second tallest mountain range in the world next to the himalayas Um, and it runs through afghanistan and pakistan down to the ocean and it's called the hindu kush so You know, we talked in a previous podcast about how names are relatively new and back in the day People talked about people named things Uh per their region of origin Right. Wahakan mitjua kan panamanian hawaiian You know various various aspects like that. They rarely had names that weren't regional so kush could literally be Anything collected from the hindu kush mountains And the hindu kush mountains could be as low as one or two thousand feet above sea level and as high as five six seven eight thousand Above sea level and some of these big valleys so you know, and then Secondly to that and what people what he's probably really asking is that there are There are a few plants That popped up and became famous Everybody mostly knows the story, but if they don't There's a there's a bubble kush line And there's a kush line that has various origin stories, but Is most likely a mix of northern californian and european genetics that popped up in florida came to la became a craze People got extreme amounts of money for it and then it became very popular and so What most people today know is kush You could classify as tk or ghost or that's what most people know because that's what became popular That's what's been traded on forums and traded on ig and everybody else and bought in clubs And so that's what most people today know know of as kush But that's a lot narrower of a gene pool Then shit that came from the hindu kush Yeah, well, right so you go all the way back to hindu you go back all the way back to 1979 And you have matt and i might do a short about this soon about the hippie hashish trail but You have some you have some euros or you have some americans come back from india napal cashmere you know pakistan or afghanistan And they bring seeds back to their buddy And they're from kush so What what date was was the article from again 79 79 issue they talked of a new hybrid known as kush Okay, well, you know remember I was telling you how They were hating on humble That back back in the 70s. I think it was I think it was probably that same issue They they were all bitter, you know that humble it's all popular because of their Indicas or their kushes, right? Yeah, and you know, they they were upset that their hazes You know we're getting downplayed Well, you know like we've talked plenty of times back in 78, you know, that was that was roughly the year that pretty much It seems like everybody around humble, you know um trinity all of that Had you know, we're growing uh purple kush. There was a huge influx You know of of purple kush seed, you know, and obviously just like Not so it's talking about that's that's just hindu kush seed And the purple of course the the purple feno Or purple genotype of that. So I'm I'm almost wondering if they didn't just get ahold of some of some of that seed And incorporate into their hazes to kind of, you know, up their market value Yeah, it is very possible And one thing I could add to that is that in modern breeding today That same thing holds true which is a cut becomes famous And everybody breeds that cut into everything right right right so in the last 15 years um The amount of people that have used cherry pie girl scout cookies five or eight different kush cuts Skittles You south you name it if it became famous and desirable people would blend it into everything and so One of the things, you know, you see people out there that are like pumping up their various hybrids And you know some of the stuff you see kaleb do that people might be like Oh, why the hell is he working with abc that looks weird? Oh, that's funky freak shows fucked up too Why the fuck you messing around with that? I don't get it some of it is Like honestly with the amount of work that's been done with cherry pie and cookies and kush What new and exciting do you think is going to pop out of that? That someone hasn't already done in the last 10 years Yeah, and if you take two hybrids that are mostly a mishmash of those things all smashed up together I'm not dissing crossing kush mints with this But what are you going to find? That's not something that's already somewhat similar to a lot that's out there It's very hard to find novel in new and so people people have been Ever ever since the name game came around and ever since popularity came around like kaleb was just mentioning People might be crossing these afghans to their hazes to increase its popularity, right? People have been doing that for the last forever, but it's increased dramatically in the last 20 years where it's like, you know, uh, there was uh I mean, this is a funny example, but there's no kush in blackberry kush Right in the sense that kush for the most part like the reason why people added kush to blackberry kush Was because people wanted to buy kush You know sour gets added to a lot of names or diesel gets added to a lot of names or names get changed because there's a desire to sell certain things And then the desire to feed that market either makes a lot of breeding happen around a few select cuts And you're trying to get a hybrid that you can call You know, um, there's a famous. There's a there's a good cut up here called docks og And I would say that it's it's not the greatest guy. It doesn't have very much og flavor. It doesn't have very much in the way of You know the the the high that I like, but it looks like a traditional kush Um, and it yields like crazy And so then people are going to grow it because it produces well And they can call it kush. Oh, I'm looking for kush. Oh, well, I have a ton of kush here by this docks kush, right? And that was that for rare bankness Yeah, I think yeah, and so I you know, and I'm not even trying to diss them or anything like that That's not the point the point is that Is that you know, uh, these names get added on to things Because as long as it's desirable and easy to buy for instance Um, you know, uh, Caleb has become pretty famous with his urkel crosses In 04050607 I would say that you know, eventually there was probably literally thousands of growers and Mendo and Humble That had lavender urkel grape ape Uh, you know, you name it half a dozen of these different cuts to meet the purple craze And then as the purple craze phased into the sour craze and the kush craze and the cookie craze And the skittles craze It ends up like there's like six dudes that held on to the the urkel Yeah Right, but 15 years ago, how many people did you know in Humboldt that had some kind of urkel? Right A lot Everybody because it was everybody because it was popular and a lot of buyers wanted it Which means lots of people that produced had it and as soon as the market shifted So did the holding of the cut And so before that before that it was salmon creek big bud and trainwreck and snow and stuff like that Yeah, sure. And so that's a thing right is that what happens is and this is sort of the thing is that when things are popular Everybody has it and everybody wants it and people want it from their friend And as soon as it becomes unpopular The percentage of people that are willing to hold on to old cuts when there's no financial value to it becomes tiny Right and you know, uh, then you have a bunch of people You know, now we have a bunch of stuff going on in the community where Most people there's legendary strains that very few people Relative to today have actually seen or smoked And so fakes proliferate Um, because they get passed around and maybe the person passing it around doesn't even realize it's a fake Because he never had it in 1998. So he doesn't know Right, you know, and so he's passing it around He's like, oh, I think I have real snow I'm gonna trade you this but he doesn't have any snow. I thought that was real I thought that was real snow. It was given to me by my buddy who's had it for forever and he swears It's real snow And then you talk to somebody like me or Caleb or whoever who actually grew snow back then Or you know, someone who or kale who's held it for a long time and they're like, I'm sorry But that's not it Yeah, that was a snow was a bad example. I've never seen a fake cut of snow But I I mean, yeah, it might it might have been a bad example But like maybe maybe the trinity would be a better example or something that is an excellent example Yeah That might be an act because people will get mad at me because they would give me their trinity and they'd be like Oh, man, I gave up the farm for this cut Right and then I'd smoke it and I'd be like it's not even a hybrid of it. It's it's not it I'm like, what do you mean? I like I you don't know what I did to get it and I'm like, dude, I'm sorry It's it's not it You know and and so there's there's some cuts where it's like I mean one of the things I have no idea what sour cut I hold Um, but if I lost it, I've collected six or seven or eight different sour cuts in the last four or five years And none of them are the or the cut that I have Yeah, which means that like if I lost it Me trying to find it again would be would be would be shitty it'd be hard Right and so that that's what happens to a lot of old cuts and then you get arguments about whether it's real or whether it's not real Um, and there's a group of collectors, uh, you know, there's three of them on this call right now But there's not that many people that are willing to hold on. I have a joke of give me your old and unpopular Yeah, right because you know having a big mom room is a huge pain in the ass It's a lot of money. It's a lot of time. It's a lot of cloning. It's a lot of trying to keep plants healthy and bug free It's a lot of and then you know 98 percent of it isn't commercially viable You're holding on to it for preservation. You're holding on to it for maybe some future breeding You're holding on to it because most of the stuff that I hold I hold it because I personally like it That's the determining factor. I don't care what the public thinks But most people, you know, it's they don't have the time. They don't have the space. They don't have the will Uh, or they just want to hold what's currently popular because that's what works for them And they think no, I know this is this is how everything gets lost, right? I can always get it back for my buddy. He's got it That's the story. I wanted to chime in real quick. Yep before we get way too far from the question of the california kush, so um, I was actually given The seeds that's way far from Yeah, we were way far. I apologize to whoever's question it was. We got real far field there for a minute That's what we do That's what you do when you're a fucking nerd. You know how Yeah, no, I was given seeds by a guy that was on the forums named walking man A lot of people that around back in the day knew him Um, I I sat on these things for a long time and they were labeled haze brothers california kush And the reason I sat on them because I was like, what the fuck is it? California haze brothers. They're fucking haze, you know, so I sat on them for a long time until I came across A high times issue that I have and I was going through it and I see haze brothers california kush And I'm like, what the you know, and by this time walking ends a walking dudes debt, you know So I'm trying to figure out, you know, what are in these things? So I did pop them I did run them and I would say the closest thing they look to is what I would associate having grown with hindu kush before Um, they're stretchier. They're not like og the buds the buds are dense They're smaller more golf ball more spread out. It's stretchier That is where the og connection probably ends with the california kush that I have grown Now are they the original ones from the haze brothers? Who knows? That's what they were labeled But we did f gen those and let them out just in case There you go Yeah, you now you need to grow them so you can answer the question Is it not Uh oh All right Oh my gosh So, uh, we have a question. It's pretty funny is uh Caleb why when are you gonna come back and why did you make everyone wait so long to come on? Oh man, I'll answer that one for him is uh, he he's real busy You know, uh, he's got a lot of stuff going on part of being really a prolific breeder Is that that's a lot of work? It's a lot of work to make seeds It's a lot of work to run rooms and have things come down and catalog and take the What did he mention the 20 million pictures that he has on file? And answer and answer be responsive probably on his website and deal with life and family stuff and eat Oh, I haven't responded on the website for about three months. Apologies to everybody So it gets it gets difficult Especially if you're a one-man show and you're and you're holding on and you're trying to do a lot of actual Work and you're trying to have a life and friendships and families and different things like that We're really appreciative that he gave us some time Uh, he's like one of our really close friends and we chat like this all the time about things Um, you know and uh, one of one of the one of the aspects that matt and I are trying to do Is that some of the most knowledgeable people? Are not great at self promotion You know, and there's a lot of people who are really good at self promotion and not that much great at everything else Uh, Caleb's kind of the reverse He's really really good at observation and breeding and he has a long history of plants And he's definitely a weed nerd and has a lot of knowledge in there Um, but you know public speaking and making the time for this kind of thing can be relatively hard uh, you know, so You know, we're super appreciative that he came on and we're hoping that we'll be able to occasionally get him to pop back in So I would say, you know, uh, be thankful. He's here and let's hope that he liked it and uh, We'll get some other subjects that interest them enough that he'll pop back on You know, I really want to do a show with Fletcher and Caleb together. I think that would be pretty phenomenal I'll drive me in really Maybe some boaty Oh boaty. Yeah, I you know, I mean, there's uh, you know, both those guys Uh, both those guys are in the same vein, you know, they're both really knowledgeable They both have a lot of passion for what they do. They both have a lot of projects. They both do a lot of hunting Um, you know, uh, boaty would be quite interesting because you know, he's done a lot of traveling Uh, which is not common in the modern in the modern times Um, you know, he's gone to a lot of these regions of origin And poked around Uh, and so those are probably some like really cool stories that he's got in his head He is helping us on the hippie hash trail Um episode we haven't really talked about it much, but we will be doing that and boaty's gonna be a major part of that So, yeah, we're uh, we haven't met we haven't we haven't talked about that But one of our episode ideas is to sort of talk about the hippie hashish trail because That's the way that the vast majority of afghan seeds actually made their way to america I talked about in a previous episode how all the sativas Free seeds came with every kilo of of bud that came to america But afghans they had hash and hash didn't contain seeds generally speaking on rare occasions It did but for the most part no And so we talked about it a little earlier But you know, um in humboldt where Caleb is from You know and mendo and stuff like that in the central coast of california It seems like there was afghans in the early and mid 70s But the wave where most growers that were tied into people really started seeing them was more 77 78 79 80 That's when the waves of afghan seeds really started hitting america and and hitting groups of growers and getting passed around Um, and I believe that's mostly due to the hippie hashish trail and people's travels to the far east And so there's a lot of interest I think in talking about that Uh, and we're gonna have an episode upcoming Uh that goes way more into depth on some of that hashish and some of the traditions and some of the travels and How that all worked and even just I mean just how difficult it was to even get over there Uh and and trip around it wasn't in the 60s and 70s. It was not easy To get to that part of the world And to move around it's far. It's you know, it's different issues today. So yeah far more dangerous a lot more dangerous Yeah, we've sadly america has been at war in that part of the region for quite some time So people's opinions of us have changed a bit and it's certainly a little sketchier With the taliban and some of the other various aspects that go on in afghanistan and pakistan But you know that region is one of the few regions as well. Well, there's still a lot of traditional farming going on of cannabis Yeah So it's good in the sense that it's a resource. It's sad that it's hard to get to for us But at least it's still there and there are some people that are traveling around there that are starting to ship some seeds back to europe and do america from those regions And maybe people will find some cool stuff in this more more recent wave of You know air loom cushions or air loom afghans and stuff like that that are getting bred over there. So we'll see All right, so we need to do some housekeeping Uh for calibs anybody who's interested in grabbing calib seeds. I've seen a lot of comments about that You can find them on speakeasy. You can find them on this website. He has a lot of other retailers What's your website calib? Humboldt csi.com There you go. So if you're interested humblecsi.com, I know speakeasy's got a bunch of great stuff Um, is there anything else we wanted to get to? I don't know. How long have we been talking? It's pretty wide-ranging discussion hour and a half hour and a half Probably pretty good. We probably are pretty good. Yeah. I mean, you know, we always as as always Matt and I will look over the questions and stuff Don't feel bad. There's always too many questions to get to if your question didn't get answered Maybe it'll get answered in a future podcast Maybe even it'll be the seed that starts the whole episode idea Um, yeah, so keep your questions coming, you know and all that, uh, you know feedback We have our patreon. You can join our discord via patreon We go in there chat. Uh, I think we're doing movie night tonight We're we fucking sit and watch movies together or tv shows just dick around But we also talked about cannabis stuff extensively I put a lot of my catalogs online and a lot of my uh collection of historical stuff So pretty much anybody can access that it's a part of our patreon and i'm putting up nudes of calib in the same Oh my gosh And then two things real quick just because I see question I see multiple questions about it. Um I gave my uh my headband cut to calib to breed with He's already released a few lines off of it It's it's not very well spread out in the community yet. And so since he's so prolific at breeding And he has such a customer base My main goal was to get it out there. So he's done some chem D. He's done some tk There's you know, there's potential more work that he's going to do with it as long as it ends up being worthwhile And he likes it. Um, and so that's that and then someone asked some questions about mexico Uh, you know mexico is super close Uh, unfortunately, uh the mexican The mexican weed is controlled a lot by cartels and there's a lot of violence associated with it So it's not so much like the 70s anymore where you can kind of go down there and like hang out with regular farmers and maybe get seeds It's a little bit more sketch than that Uh, the violence has been quite extreme for the last 10 years. Um, and so While mexico does have a large and diverse population of cannabis down there and we hope that uh some more of it comes our way It's not as simple as it was decades ago to go down there despite how close it is And poke around and get access to it. Um, do you think there's anything really worth? Um getting in mexico anymore just with the influx of uh, you know, european genetics I hardly doubt it man cartel would have been trying to increase production at some point, you know What I mean, like they're not they're not stupid. That's their main export other than myth so that might so that might be something just real quick that we'll end it on is that uh, sadly one of the you know, I talked about how it's very difficult for us to penetrate afghanistan and pakistan these days that might be a benefit Um, because it's keeping their lines a bit more pure Some of the european lines have infested jamaica infested mexico morocco and some of these other regions Yeah, even columbia Especially columbia some of these regions have been, you know, have you know, some of these, you know, morocco Especially because it's close to europe, you know, uh, they used to have a lot of traditional cannabis They have a lot of dna. They have a lot of different european seed banks got super lemon haze now Yeah, stuff like that that they bring down there and breed Um, so there's a lot of regions of origin That have been polluted for better for worse, uh by these other things and you're not going to go to jamaica and find some 25 week lamb's bread Anymore you're not gonna it's not as easy to find stuff in morocco. It's not as easy to find stuff in mexico um That's part of the issue is that the you know Global trade has good and bad parts and in the 60s and 70s a lot of these regions were untouched And they just had what they had from their region and now there's been a lot of cross contamination Um, and so yeah, you know, no one's going to morocco looking for super lemon haze But sadly, that's what they might find, you know, or they might find some la confidential or whatever over there, you know Um, and because those those those farmers just want to make money Yeah, so um, you know, I think uh, you know, we could answer a lot more questions and we could talk for hours But I think we're coming to a good place to close Uh, thank you everybody everybody that gives us a bit of time on their friday. It's always appreciated Absolutely, you know, we're gonna keep this thing flowing. We're gonna try to keep topics of interest On breeding and different things like that going so Thank you everyone. Oh Wbd hit up Speak easy get them your address you received a free shirt for having the most upvotes on your question So yeah, get ahold of them. Yeah, and so everyone. Thank you very much. I hope you found it informative Everybody have a great day. Thank you. Caleb for joining us And I will talk to you all soon everybody. Have a wonderful afternoon Cheers cheers