 Hello, everyone, and welcome to the October 2023 Hyperledger Financial Markets Mortgage Subgroup Meeting. That's always a mouthful. Hopefully everyone was able to join. I think there were some problems with an alternate link, but hopefully we'll be able to get those resolved. Before we do get started, as always, I'd like to express our appreciation to the Financial Markets Special Industry Group and the Hyperledger Foundation for making this meeting possible and providing their ongoing support. As always, please note that this meeting is being recorded and it's under the umbrella of the Hyperledger Foundation, so we ask that everyone abide by the antitrust policy that we're sharing on the screen and the Code of Conduct. Briefly, the antitrust policy states that we avoid discussions of company-specific pricing products and projects. We don't make negative remarks about other companies or products, and the Code of Conduct states that we treat each other with respect, never discriminate, and communicate constructively. We fully support Hyperledger's policy of openness, equity, and inclusion, and for any new participants, we welcome you, and if you'd like, please introduce yourself in the chat and let us know if there's any specific areas of interest. So again, everyone is welcome. Here's our agenda for today. We've gone through the introduction portion as part of our usual PSA for the Hyperledger community. We'll go over Hyperledger's new blockchain certification. I think that's real interesting. James Hendrick will provide an update on the developments in the mortgage industry. Then we'll do a deep dive on Ms. Moe's blockchain and the mortgage industry article. Lastly, I'll do a brief plug for my talk at the October 15th Ideas Conference, and then we'll briefly go over our survey. We always cover this slide at the beginning of each meeting, and this is to reinforce that we're all on the same blockchain journey, but we just may be at different points along that path. This group is meant to help everyone on their blockchain journey and to demonstrate the feasibility of blockchain technology through mortgage industry use cases, define potential implementation paths, and just as a means of educating people within the mortgage industry and ancillary industry. So the next couple of slides, I always mention for those that are new to the group and would like more information. This slide provides links to different resources for the Linux Foundation, the mortgage subgroup Wiki is the second one from the bottom. I highly encourage you to go to that and it contains our meeting notes for our groups, recordings from previous sessions, and the curated articles about the mortgage industry. So that's I think a really good resource. In order to access those resources, you will need an LFID. I'm not going to go over this slide, but we just want to let you know this is how you get an LFID. Lastly, this is just links to our blockchain training. All of the information on this slide is free and I highly encourage you if you are new to blockchain avail yourself of this information. It's really fantastic in one of the ways I got up to speed on Hyperledger and Blockchain. Now this slide, this is new information Hyperledger has recently announced a blockchain certification, Hyperledger fabric certified practitioner. The certificate covers the fundamentals of blockchain, Hyperledger fabric, network, smart contracts and client applications. This certification is for IT professionals, full stack and DevOps engineers and software developers. And so if you have experience in smart contract development, including chain code lifestyle queries, ledger state manipulation, this is the type of certification for you. And it really dives on to the more technical aspects of Hyperledger. If you're more on the business side, unless you feel very comfortable technically, then you may want to get a different type of certification. But I wanted to mention this because I have taken a look at the exam because in order to get the certification, you do have to take an exam. That exam is $250. But I think it is a good badge and a good indicator of your level of technical expertise. Okay, so with that, James Hendrick will walk us through the state of blockchain in the global mortgage industry. Thank you, Marvin. Let's go ahead and move right in. So you know, the first article I wanted to talk about, this is coming out of Canada. So there's a Canadian blockchain payments processor called FCF Pay. And they've had a pretty big impact on the crypto adoption worldwide. Starting here in October, they've actually partnered with Chase Bank. Allowing Chase Bank customers to be able to pay credit card bills, loans, even their mortgage payments and their preferred cryptocurrency. They include Bitcoin, Ether, Shiba, XRP, Dogecoin, Stablecoins, quite a few different cryptocurrencies that they are supporting. Chase has become the second major bank in the last month to add cryptocurrency support for customers. So in September last month, FCF Pay made an arrangement with HSBC in order to do a similar payment plan. The list of American merchants currently accepting popular cryptocurrencies is actually exceeding 20,000 now according to FCF Pay. So anticipate we'll be seeing more and more of this. We've been talking over the last year about crypto mortgages, but it's really been more from the aspect of funding those crypto mortgages. And now you're starting to see more and more options become available just for making your payments. The next article, so blockchain technologies merits further exploration. So we actually talked about a Fannie Mae poll back in 2021. And this article actually starts off with that. In that Fannie Mae poll, they talked about how only around 25% of the respondents and they were interviewing CTOs, CEOs, were at least somewhat familiar with blockchain. And 68% of them had yet to consider using it within their organization. Well, as we've watched the mortgage industry production expenses that have definitely soared to a record high over the last couple of years, we're roughly around 13,000 per loan in the first quarter of 2023, according to MBA. MISMO estimates that blockchain's ability to serve as a single source of truth could reduce those closing times by 30% and cut costs by at least 25%. We're actually going to be talking a little bit about that in the presentation that's upcoming as we dive into that MISMO white paper from the other month. Sean Job, who's the vice president and head of business development at Informative Research, he also shares the MISMO community. He said the current, the group's current exploration phase is designed to identify ways for blockchain to help solve real world problems. They're looking at an industry that's heavily dependent. You've got the checker, the checkers will be talking about this as well. And the technologies have capabilities that come with blockchain directly meet these various needs that we have within the mortgage industry. Although blockchains yet to earn widespread adoption in the industry, there are some prime examples of successful integration. So we've talked about figure over the last couple of years, they've originated over $6 billion in HELOCs. They've actually partnered up with four major independent banks and they're working on 100% digital application process. And then last year, Redwood Trust is another example. They securitized $313 million in single family rental loans with blockchain provider liquid mortgage. So we've actually got articles relevant to each one of those available on our Wiki site. Let's move on to the next page. So coming out of mortgage business, this article is actually a summary of Mauro Casolini. He's a TEDx speaker and digital prevent or professional. He underscores how blockchain represents a shift away from the traditional centralized banking system towards a decentralized and more secure alternative. You know, in the mortgage industry, blockchain innovation promises accelerated data and funds transfer what we've been talking about for years now. This drive toward faster and more secure banking transactions aligns with the broader adoption of open banking by lenders. Recently, the Commonwealth Bank of Australia integrated open banking data into a supply online platform for brokers, enabling them to leverage data in the mortgage application process. Through the system, consumers can securely share their financial information with their mortgage broker, advisors, eliminating the need for insecure passwords, password sharing and the real estate industry in this Institute of Australia, the REIA in collaboration with the REINZ, which is the real estate Institute of New Zealand. They are actually focusing on a white paper of how distributed ledger technology can revolutionize the home buying process in Australia. Additionally, blockchain can facilitate new markets where lenders can secure loans against collateralized assets, including cryptocurrencies. And Marvin, let's go ahead and move on to the last article. So secured automated lending technology or SALT was founded in 2016 by a group of Bitcoin enthusiasts to offer crypto back lending. So while this article is not mortgage specific, SALT lending provides both personal and business loans. I did want to touch on it, because again, it talks about kind of these new and creative financing solutions that are coming out with the use of blockchain and cryptocurrencies. SALT loans allow borrowers to maintain ownership of their digital assets, while also gaining access to cash through the loan. So the article discusses how a SALT product works and the requirements to attain a loan. Since the collateral being used to secure a loan is a cryptocurrency, obviously it can fluctuate as the market price of the crypto markets change over time. In turn, your loan to value ratio can fluctuate because of that. If the value of the digital asset crashes in one of these SALT loans, so if the LTV reaches 90.91%, SALT converts the entire crypto portfolio into a US stablecoin. This is a process called automatic stabilization. Once the loan to value is less than or equal to 83.3%, the borrow can then re-enter the market by converting the stablecoin back into their original digital currency. So right now for these loans, again, they're not mortgage specific, but they do have loans that are available with 12 month, 36 month and 60 month terms. And the interest rates pretending on the term and the LTV can range anywhere from 0.95% all the way up to about 10%. So, you know, keep an eye on the finance world is definitely getting creative with different products utilizing crypto, but more importantly, creating products that utilize blockchain as their backbone. Marvin, moving on to the next slide. So for those of you that aren't familiar with our Wiki site, this is our hyper ledger Wiki site. Whoops, hold on one second, I just lost my presentation. There we go. For the mortgage indices subgroup, we've been doing these presentations roughly, I think next year's or next month is our two year anniversary. So you'll actually see over on the left hand side, there's links to all of our previous presentations. So both the PowerPoint deck as well as we record these sessions and they are published on our YouTube channel and hyper ledgers YouTube channel. But if you would like to, you know, directly access that are over there on the left in the upper right is information on the LFID that Marvin discussed earlier. Once you set up your LFID, it's free. You can go ahead and register with the mortgage industry subgroup. You'll start getting notifications as we're posting new articles as we have meeting events coming out, things of that nature. And then over on the right hand side, you'll actually see we've got links to all the articles that we've covered in the last couple months. And there is an archive link over on the far left. We have gathered roughly 200 250 articles over the last two years on both blockchain and AI that you do have access available to. And I believe all my actually drop the link into the chat for us. So feel free to grab that link and save it for yourself as a favorite. And moving on to the next slide. So yeah, I actually want to jump us right into our overview of the Mismo white paper that was recently produced. So we actually talked about this. It was one of the highlights I gave in my news updates, I believe in last month's meeting. But Mismo did produce a white paper in June of this year, talking about blockchain within the mortgage industry. Mismo's also created the Mismo's blockchain community or practice or COP. And they're trying to play a vital role in the standardization of guidelines for distributed ledger technology and increasing collaboration across the mortgage industry. That's one of the things that, you know, is the purpose of this group here is how can we collaborate? How can we share knowledge? How can we provide education and training benefits? Their white paper actually covers really three different areas, the potential efficiencies from using blockchain, the practical industry applications, an example of use cases, and then the keys to increasing adoption. We do have a link available to this white paper on our Wiki site. It's roughly an eight page site. It is available from the MBA Mismo site. If you're an MBA member or if you're a non MBA member, they do make it available for you as well. Marvin, let's go ahead and jump right into it. So, you know, the first things that they kind of talk about is the blockchain opportunities. So there there's a huge potential for efficiencies within the mortgage industry. So from ranging from streaming line, the streamlining the process of moving the mortgage from application to underwriting to e-closing to compliance. Throughout that entire process, you're going through multiple audits, multiple reconciliations, quality controls, pretty much every time the information, the documents are transferring from one hand to another. There's a whole other audit process that reoccurs. So blockchain has the potential to decrease these costs for originators, for servicers, for the investors, really any partners that are involved in the mortgage life cycle. These higher costs and transaction timelines can extend up to 40 days. And, you know, as we take a look at blockchain as MBA and Mismo are taking a look at blockchain, we've been talking about this for quite some time now. So, you know, with the immutability of the information, there is the potential, you know, it's a game changer. Only new blocks can be written. Everybody has access to the same source of truth. It provides a, you know, definitive certainty that the information that you're going to be looking at within each one of the blocks is reliable. It hasn't been modified. It increases tremendously the capabilities of data sharing. All of these things lend to the ability to reduce the overall loan manufacturing timelines by at least 30%, as well as the costs by 25% compared to that current industry average that we're talking right now of 13,000 alone. These digitally secured documents including income verification, credit reporting data, and asset valuation. They can be represented on one change sourced to the original validations. It minimizes automated, excuse me, minimizes audit and due diligence costs for quality reviews, as well as the reconciliation process costs across multiple entities seeking to verify the exact same data. So, the architecture of distributed technology can be both permission and permission based on the access and privacy requirements of these transactions. So, there is a lot of flexibility and customization. We've talked about both permission and permissionless blockchains previously, and there are definitely, you know, benefits to each one, depending on what you're looking to to accomplish. Marvin, why don't we go ahead and move on into the use case examples? Okay, I did want to interject, James. I think that the people at MISMO did a really good job of articulating what the benefits are of going to blockchain and then the opportunities in the use cases that they've articulated here, but one of the issues that I had with this article is it assumes that everyone, and this may be a misinterpretation of the article, it assumes that everyone would be on the same blockchain, because it really doesn't address interoperability of blockchains. So, if I were alone originator and I was using a single blockchain, and then I hand off my information to a servicer that's on a different blockchain, there can be an issue of maintaining that information across those blockchains. And unfortunately, I think that interoperability and different organizations advocating different blockchains is one of the things folding back the use of blockchain within our industry, and especially for the first two bullets on here actually, interoperability is an issue applicable to all three of the use cases that they've articulated. Yeah, you know what, that's a fantastic point, because in my review of the article as well, Marvin, I think they only really mentioned interoperability one time, and that was really when they were talking about, and we'll get to it at the end, that moving forward adoption, you know, of what are some of the challenges that need to be resolved, and you're right, I think that's the only place I heard about it in the entire article. Yeah, and I was taking a look at some announcements a couple days ago, so we all know that figure advocates the provenance blockchain, and they are the 800 pound gorilla within this niche, and recently there was a company that switched from hyperledger, hyperledger fabric for using electronic signature to figure provenance, so if a company in order to be able to work across the industry needs to switch blockchains, that's going to be a deterrence. I can't remember what that company's name is, but if I can dig it up while we're on this call, I'll definitely let you guys know, but just another point of interoperability continuing to be an issue. I know that this is the hyperledger mortgage subgroup, but James, I know you and I have always tried to be technology agnostic, blockchain agnostic, or platform agnostic, as long as it's a good solution for the industry, we've been open to it, and we have brought providers of different blockchain platforms into this form. So just going through the use cases, I think the improving efficiency and loan origination, this was one of the points that you'd brought up in one of the articles, James, and I thought it was really interesting because going to this point, there was a surge in loan origination costs to, I think it was $13,000. I know every time we bring up the increasing cost in loan origination, someone invariably raises the point that a significant portion of loan origination cost is due to the increasing cost of the underlying assets. So if your house, the house you're interested in purchasing, goes from $200,000 to $400,000, and loan origination is still $100,000, then it's going to go from, I think it's $10,000 to $200,000 in that case. My math is probably off, I can never do math in public, but you guys understand what I'm saying, that as the underlying cost of the real estate goes up, your origination cost invariably will go up. So the question that I'm trying to get to in a very convoluted and unclear way is how much of that origination cost is actually due to processing costs, not due to the increase in the cost of the underlying asset. If we could get that type of data, then I think companies can really start to drill down and see what they can do. Yeah, you know, I think you've got a really good point on that, Marvin. In the article, I think Mismo quotes 25% cost reduction, but they didn't actually provide any data or analytics in the white paper to support that. One of the other interesting things that I thought they pulled out well in loan origination, I hadn't really thought about this before, but in the whole loan file documents and digitally sealing them on a blockchain, it provides benefits to other areas, not just having that digital asset out there available, but for things such as rep and warrants. It reduces the risk that a lender must repurchase the loan because, you know, the guidelines were not met. The fact that you have the borrower signed acknowledgments, you know, assures, you know, all parties that, hey, if there's a dispute, this helps to mitigate the dispute, you know, identifying and whether it's court foreclosure or whatever, that the borrower, you know, was aware of the parameters of the loans. So I thought those were some, you know, great points that pulled out to relevant to loan origination. Yeah, and there was actually really interesting article earlier in the week that repurchases of loans was costing up to, and I think it was 60 basis points in the current market. So there's got to be a way, and I think you hit upon it, that blockchain can help offset the cost of those reps and warrants because if that information, if the information is in the blockchain, it hasn't changed. The loan originator can say, here we abided by all of the different requirements of the loan. They get a certain amount of protection and can potentially decrease the cost of those repurchases or potentially eliminate those repurchases all together. So yeah, definitely an opportunity for blockchain there as well. Okay, talking about enabling transparency within loan servicing, loan servicing continues to be one of the most significant issues within the mortgage industry. Reporting of loan performance data taking 45 to 60 days, and that's something that I know there are quite a few companies out there that have been working on making that information instantaneous or live. If you can access that data and turn around and produce a report on loan performance or changes or any of the loan servicing information and cut that down significantly, that would be a huge a huge benefit to loan servicers. So I know that there are several companies out there. We've had a couple of them that have been working on loan servicing plat applications on blockchain. I think one of the things we'll try and do maybe at the beginning of next year is finding out where those guys are at, what they're doing within the loan servicing areas. It relates to blockchain. And I know we've talked about how AI can help that as well. So I think that that's another huge opportunity. Yeah, you know, for me, Marvin, this one is a big category. So as you know, my background's been servicing over the last basically three decades. And I see huge potential for what blockchain can do in the servicing world, in particular, relevant to payments, investor reporting. Imagine being able to, you know, accept a payment from a customer, post it online to the blockchain and investors, investors same day could be getting real world reporting and tracking off that type of information. So there are definitely, you know, a lot of potentials that we can be using for out there. Unfortunately servicing has to be, has a tendency to be one of those areas that gets the least amount of attention. And so this is where I think it could dramatically have an impact in, you know, loan reconciliation, payment reconciliation, having that single source of truth that all interested parties are able to, you know, access and verify information off of. Yeah. And then the last use case that Ms. Mo mentioned, increasing trust and securitization, you already mentioned Redwood trust. That was one of the seminal articles, I think in blockchain where they identified 100 basis points improvement in the cost of securitization. So I think that that's something that people are still looking to. I haven't seen anything else from the team at Redwood Trust will figure about what they're doing to continue to improve upon securitization. It'd be great if we could get someone from either figure or liquid trust into this form and they can provide an update. I have reached out to some of them and they have mentioned that they're continuing to work, but they keep their information pretty close to their best. So some of the stuff they're working on is really, they feel not for public consumption. Hopefully that changes as they start to release some of their solutions and we can find out what they're doing and hopefully other people within the industry can take advantage of it or use it as a lead. I know that there are still several companies that are working on different types of securitization solution, not only as it relates to just loan origination mortgages, but securitization using blockchain for other types of debt instruments. This is I think something that will continue to see. We brought Intane NFT. This is one of the areas they're working on, not specifically within mortgage, but within other fixed debt instruments. And there are other companies out there. So there will continue to be activity in this and hopefully we'll be able to bring some of those guys, even if they're not mortgage related into this form to let you guys know what's going on. Yeah, I know that's great Marvin. Let's move into the next slide and kind of talk about, you know, moving forward. What are some of the key focus areas for the industry for, you know, MBA and MISMO. So we talked a little bit about interoperability earlier. That's a key thing. Marvin and I are, you know, both keep on our eyes on, you know, as we mentioned here in this forum, we are pretty much technology agnostic. We do support all forms of blockchain, but it's determining what is the, you know, right type of blockchain for the right type of use case solution that you're after. And in order to do that, companies are going to be building on different types of blockchain. So MISMO does want to play a part in this and establishing guidelines for blockchain interoperability. But I think there's still, you know, scratching the surface on that one education. That's really what this monthly presentation is about. It's all about, you know, getting information into your guys' hands as to what's going on in the industry. What are things to take a look at? You know, I mentioned the articles previously. Take a look at the Wiki. All of those articles have been curated really for professionals within the industry to be able to go to one source to, you know, access a ton of different information, particularly at this time of year as you're going through your, your budget planning for next year. This is a great time if you're looking to pull information together to take to the CTO, to the CEO, in order to justify your path going down that blockchain road that Marvin was showing earlier. Definitely take a look. There's great research in there. Feel free also to, you know, reach out to us directly. There's the technology architecture aspects developing partnerships and strategic alliances between organizations. The scalability of the platforms, that's one thing that, you know, is still kind of challenging people. What do you store on the blockchain? Do you store everything? Do you store key elements? So definitely different theories and plans that people are implementing relevant to scalability. Building a minimal viable ecosystem for loans, giving a way to evaluate learn the technology is to build a smaller scale ecosystem. And that's what you're seeing a lot of these companies do now. Business also working on an adoptions of standards and to give you some ideas of those they're looking at, you know, standards for loan origination systems for point of sale system, servicing platforms, automated underwriting systems in both the qualified and non-QM space, eRegistry, eVault. So they are looking to be a player within setting the standards for each of those industries, helping to collaborate with other industry groups, working with groups as a proven approach for collaboration. Then they're looking to build consensus across these organizations. And then, you know, regulatory and legislative issues. So this is one of the big things that's still out there. And we've been trying to provide updates as much as we can as we move along. The GSEs have been a little slow jumping on the blockchain foundation. I think it's Fannie and Freddie right now that have some work that's going on, but nobody has fully embraced it as of yet and come out with their formal guidelines. We do know that they're working on them. You know, plus we're looking for, you know, other governmental interactions and what regulatory impacts that those are going to have. So as they do become available, we'll be continuing to update this group and post additional articles. And then, Marvin, any, you know, comments or discussions on what else MISMO is doing? Well, I really do like this article from MISMO. And I'm going to go ahead and go to the next slide. I know James, you and I talked about whether or not we should do this slide. And the reason I wanted to include this is because I think MISMO can and should be doing more. They have a community of practice. They are the standard setting body in our industry, but in terms of really providing leadership as it relates to blockchain, I think they can do more. This is a great article, but it really only wets my appetite. And at the end, I'm left hanging. Okay, what else? We've been talking about blockchain within this form for about two years. But for MISMO to come out with this blockchain in the mortgage market, this blockchain in the mortgage industry article at the end of those two years and still not saying anything definitive to me is disappointing. I love the leadership that they provide. I know quite a few of the people at MISMO. They do great work, but come on guys, let's get out there and lead. So, okay, so now I'm going to get off my soapbox and we can go back to things, okay? No, I think you've got a great point there, Marvin. I know they've actively been trying to participate and be involved, but I too am kind of looking for them to help step up to the play. I'm looking for the GSEs to step up to the play. They have developed this community of practice that we mentioned earlier that's focused on standards development, adoption, education, things of that nature. They are focused on these industry standards that they're looking to create, but I would love to see them kind of become that front runner for establishing this, but I think it's still going to take some time. And as we know, I made that comment earlier about servicing not getting the attention. Well, in general, the mortgage industry has a tendency to lag behind the newer technologies that are coming out. Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. That attitude is somewhat endemic of our industry, but it'd be great for those guys to really provide leadership. And they need to manage the requirements of a very diverse audience. They are industry groups, so I can understand their hesitancy and the difficult situation that they're in. But yeah, I mean, lead guys, we're more than happy to help you guys lead or to follow your lead. So, okay. Next slide, here we go. Okay, as I mentioned at the beginning of this, I am speaking at the International Data Engineering and Science Association Ideas Global AI and Blockchain Conference that's being held this weekend. They're on Saturday. They're focusing on AI on Sunday. They're focusing on Blockchain. I'm speaking on the Blockchain section. So, Sunday, October 15th, my slot is at 11 a.m., but this conference goes from 9 to 3 a.m. I highly encourage you guys to attend. This is a live in-person presentation, so you guys would get to see me stumble over my words in person and hopefully not fall off the podium. But I did this last year. I thought it was a great venue. They did a really good job as some great speakers last year, especially from an entertainment perspective since it is being held in LA. They do have a really good panel, despite including me in that panel. I think it's a good panel of experts. So, I learned for you guys to attend. Okay, the next item, this I think the second to the last item on our agenda, we did release a survey a couple of months ago. So, that survey is still out there. We want to encourage everyone to participate in this survey. We are still looking for feedback, what type of issues you guys are interested in, what type of topics. James, what do you think? Should we click on the survey and just walk them through the survey questions? Yeah, why don't we go ahead and pull that up? And I think Alma just dropped in the link for the survey. Thank you on that, Alma. I was pulling that up myself. And we also dropped in a link to the MISMO Blockchain White Paper, if you guys would like to take a look more. Okay, so here is the survey. This is a very brief survey, only less than a half dozen questions. Which area would you like to see more presentations? Technology, specific use cases, vendor presentations, or other? This is always feedback that we're interested in. What technologies are the most interesting or relevant to your company? You can select up to three, hyperledger fabric, other blockchains, AI and blockchain, smart contracts, tokenization. So definitely select one or three of those. What additional topics would you like to see? Every time I speak with someone in the industry, they're always interested in regulatory information. What are the GSEs saying? What are the regulatory bodies saying? And we're always trying to get that. I think with this additional information from the survey, we can continue to go to those. I've reached out, for example, to the Texas Blockchain Council. They have been able to get some people in politics into their presentations and to provide their insights into blockchain. So hopefully by partnering with them, we can get some of this information out there as well. Then share your thoughts on the level of technology and complexity in our presentation. In going back to the certification that we talked about at the beginning, that is a pretty technical certification. Maybe as a mortgage professional, you don't want necessarily something that technical. You don't want to talk about transactions per second. You want to talk about, oh, okay, how can I get more loans through this application? And give us some feedback on that. Is it too technical, not technical enough? That type of feedback. And then any other feedback that you'd like to provide? Should I stop getting on my soapbox and preaching to you guys and stuff like that? Do you guys want to hear more from James? Should James shave off his beard? That's one of the things I was willing to throw out there. But James, any feedback? Yeah, I think I'm going to be keeping the facial hair. No, as Marvin mentioned, we opened up the interview in our last presentation. So it was this time last month. I think we'll be keeping it open for one more month. So if you do get the chance, come in. We'd love to hear your feedback, your input. This will help provide us some guidance for 2024 as we're looking for speakers and topics and what information to be bringing to the audience. But yeah, I think we're good there, Marvin. Hey guys, that brings us to the end of our presentation I want to open it up just really briefly if anyone had any questions or comments. If not, we will just end the session and give you guys some 15 minutes back to your day. So any questions from the participants or audience? Yeah, while we're waiting to see Marvin, hopefully at some point we'll actually get somebody from the MISMO blockchain group too to be able to join us and present. As Marvin mentioned, I hear the same thing. People are interested in what the GSEs takes are and what they're working on. So hopefully next year we'll be able to increase some of the participation from them as well. Hey, cool. If there aren't any questions from the audience, we'll go ahead and end the session there. Thank you everyone for participating. And you will be able to access this recording off of our Wiki within the next couple of days. I'm giving you guys back 17 minutes to your day. Have a great day and we'll see you at the next session. Thank you everyone. Thank you everybody.