 Welcome into the original gangsters podcast. I'm your host Scott Bernstein. This week we are going to discuss the current state of the patriarchal crime family and I'm going to bring in, you know, we always go right to the source here at the Ho Chi pod and Tim White from W PRI in Rhode Island is the epitome of a mob expert, a mob biologist. He to me is the preeminent voice and reporter on New England patriarchal activity. Tim, thank you for joining me. Scott, I love being on. Thanks for having me. So, you know, I'm excited to, we've done a couple episodes this past year talking about Providence, a little bit of Boston, but not with an expert like yourself. So, kind of want to just do patriarchal family 2023 headed to 2024. There's probably been more activity in Providence the last year or two than the previous handful of years. We know, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but we know that the seat of power which had been in Providence for a long time has moved over the last decade plus to Boston. Is that what you say that's accurate? Yeah, I would say it actually, the seat of power moved to Boston I would say approximately 2009. I mean, the last time Rhode Island had a true boss was Luigi baby Shax Monaco who essentially stepped down from the position in 2009 when he learned that the feds were on him. And he was right because, you know, what had happened in 2009 is he was walking out of a Federal Hill restaurant enjoying, I believe, Italian wedding soup, if I recall correctly, and he had just received a protection payment from a strip club in the area. Runner had given it to him, but what he didn't know until the indictment came out was they were marked bills by the by the FBI. And when he walked out of the restaurant to he was approached by two FBI agents, Joe Degnan and Jeff Katie, who had a what's called a body warrant and they served the body warrant on them and removed the money. And they were able to establish that protection payment or that level of extortion. But he wasn't charged, as you know, Scott, until 2011. Yeah, along with eight other defendants, both made and associates in a wide ranging shakedown scheme of primarily of adult entertainment spots in Rhode Island. That was part of a broader, I think, one of the reasons for the delay, a little speculation in my part, but one of the reasons for the delay at the time was because it was a National Department of Justice push. There was a sweep in New York, there was a sweep in Philly, there's sweeps all over the country at that time in New England was one of the big ones. So I think they were coordinating the timing on that. So they probably delayed New England a little bit is my guess at the time. Anyway, but he saw it coming. Louis saw it coming. So we stepped down. And that's when there was a couple of sort of acting street bosses up in Boston, until Carmen Dunanzio got out of prison. And according to, you know, police affidavits that I read in intelligence reports, he has identified currently as the boss of the Patriaca crime family. By the way, it always fascinates me that, you know, we still call it the Patriaca crime family here in Rhode Island, in New England, I should say. Even though, you know, Junior Patriaca, who's still alive, he ceded that power, I think, back in 1989 or whatever it might have been because of an indictment. And sometimes crime families will change their names, but it really speaks to the legacy of Raymond Ellis Patriaca, Lesso Junior, that we still call it the Patriaca crime family. So it's always fascinating to me. So talk about Louis for a little bit. One of the more tenured LCN members in the country, he's in his 90s now, hasn't been boss, as you said, since 2009, but led the Patriaca clan from mid 90s when Cadillac Frank got locked up to the late 2000s, stabilized the family to a degree. I know he's, from my research and talking to people, a bit of a lightning rod. People either have mad respect for him, or bitterly dislike him. Where do you put him when you're talking about, you know, the pantheon of the underworld in Providence? Where does he fit in? Well, I never like to glamorize organized crime. And I think there's too much of the media meaning in media. It's a big umbrella, right? The media includes journalists like myself, but it also includes Hollywood. And I think LCN tends to be glamorizing that, but glamorized. It's definitely romanticized. It is romanticized, and to a fault, it's revisionist history. So I just like to put that disclaimer in front. Before I say, look, he is an old school legendary mob boss in the Patriaca crime family that, you know, he is, as you say, he's in his 90s. He's 96 years old, recently spotted on Federal Hill. One of someone of my staff saw him, I think two months ago. You know, he looks great. He's a health nut. I think you probably talked about on this podcast quite a bit. And that has paid off for him because we should all be so lucky to be 96 years old. And you're right, he is a polarizing figure within the world of organized crime in New England. But I don't think that's unusual for a mob boss. I think it's like anything else. You know, there are factions within a crime family that certain factions are favored when this boss is in power and other factions are favored when that boss is in power. And look, Monaco had strong ties to Salemi when Monaco was under boss. And he was elevated to boss post Salemi as you pointed out. I think some of the complaints that you heard were from those factions that felt like they weren't getting the juice that they deserve that they weren't able to make the money that it's always about money, isn't it? And he is a guy, we're talking about baby shacks, who very polished, carried himself more like a banker than a mob boss, at least publicly. And he was a bottom line guy. He was a brass tax guy. To what you're saying about what I've heard, I heard the complaints were that he was incredibly greedy. And he didn't want to share her. He wanted to eat off other people's plates. Well, you know, yes, I think that was part of the again, that's all part of money that the complaints about him. That's true. But look, he was one of a kind. I mean, he spoke multiple language. He was on the run for years, believed to have been hiding out in places like Chamonix, France, when he was wanted for murder. He's an, I don't know if he still is quite frankly, but he was an avid skier. And like the type of skiing where you jump out of helicopters, you know, like sports. Yeah, yeah, like real, you know, interesting, interesting guy. And I've talked to him a couple of times. He's a true old school wise guy who will never give me anything of substance, but never been married. Has he? No, never been married. And he was, I mean, that's part of the legend. The legacy of baby shacks that he used to shack up a lot of people. That's so some people theorize that's where he got that that nickname from is that he was quite the good looking guy, quite the ladies man, all of that. So real, like I going back to what I said before, real old school guy. And, you know, I think your legacy, as you, you separate yourself from what you were just talking about and the complaints that he received when he was in power, you know, as time moves on, I mean, it's been 14 years since he's been the mob boss, sort of that that narrative is going to evolve. And he will become more and more of a legend because he represents by gone era. It really does. I think that's a good phrase for it. So, but he's still around. I mean, a lot of the guys that are still around made members and in some associates, you know, they're, well, they look a lot like our US Senate, right? I mean, they're older, and they could probably run for Congress. I think that the contrast that I was making, and I want to get your take on this, was if we're talking about Providence, at least we could talk about Boston too, but if we're talking about Providence, when you talk about a guy like Maddie, Maddie, Google and Maddie, I don't feel like he's polarizing. I haven't heard many people say a negative word about Maddie. Everyone that I've spoken to, at least in my research, from multiple crime families, Maddie seems to be more universally well liked and respected. Okay, but I guess the only difference is Maddie is, he is still, Maddie, Google, and Maddie is still active. He's active. He's a capo in the crime family. There's a case, Scott, that I'm following very closely here, a narcotics case involving somebody with who the Rhode Island State Police and the Attorney General's Office allege has strong ties to Maddie, Google, and Maddie and that clan. You've talked about him on this podcast, Dino Gilmetti. Dino Gilmetti, right. And so that whole faction, so based on, and I always want to point out to your viewers and your listeners, that all of this stuff is sort of a lagging indicator with folks like me. There are things that I won't talk about because I've just heard rumors and I haven't, an old saying in journalism, Scott, is if your mother says she loves you, check it out. Check it out, right. Yeah. So I've learned that the hard way a couple of times. Right. You don't want to make a mistake because you're going to hear about it, especially in the type of reporting that we do. So a lot of stuff I've heard, like I've heard the books were open for a few people. I'm not going to name those people on the show because I haven't independently verified that. So it's, what I do talk about tends to be a lagging indicator of through, it's affidavits to support a search warrant, affidavits to support an arrest warrant. And the indications are just to wrap this up. Maddie, Guglia Maddie is still a capo, long time capo in the Patriaca crime family with ties back to the old man, Raymond L.S. Patriaca. Well respected, obviously in that world for what it's worth. And that Eddie Lado, who was a capo, is the underboss of the Patriaca crime family. I'm happy to talk more about Eddie if you want, Scott. But that has been commonly, just going back to how you began our segment. When the boss is in Boston, the underboss traditionally is in Providence, vice versa. When the boss is here, the underboss, like think the Anjulos up in Boston, when Raymond L.S. Patriaca was in power, the Anjulo, Genaro Anjulo was the underboss. When Salemi was in power, Louis Monaco was the underboss down here. So ping-pongs between the two. And of course, the whole family has very strong ties to the Genovese crime family of the five families in New York. That's generally, traditionally, who they quote unquote answered to. Before we jump into Eddie, I want to talk about Eddie. But I'd like to get your comment if you're willing to comment. And we don't have to talk about names of people that, you know, specifics. But like you, I've heard there have been, I've heard at least two making ceremonies in the last year or two, related to guys in Providence. I know that they're making guys in Boston as well. But I heard, and I got mixed reaction when I put this out there to Steve O'Donnell, who was just another superstar in the world of mobology. I had heard that Maddie and Eddie were allowed to make these guys themselves. And they did not need to take them up to Boston like normal protocol. When Maddie got made, for instance, in 19, I think it was 77 or 78, he had to go to the North End. I think a group of seven or eight guys from Providence traveled to the North End that day, including Raymond Jr. and got made in Boston. I had heard that these were ceremonies that were conducted in Providence by Providence guys. Well, I guess so. I've heard a lot of things. You're very good at what you do. I read you. So, you know, I think that you're a plugged in person. I will not comment on what you just talked about just for what I had said earlier. But the only thing I pushed back at is the North End is obviously central to the LCN in New England as is Federal Hill. What matters more than geography is who the boss is and all of that. You have to remember one of the most famous induction ceremonies caught on tape by the FBI presided over by then boss Raymond Jr. Patriaca happened not in the North End, happened not on Federal Hill, it happened in Medford, Massachusetts. I've been to the neighborhood. It's like any working class. Yeah, it's just a small colonial, you know, that happened to be three doors down from an FBI agent. So they were able to physically, it's 1989 now, physically run a wire from one house to the other so they could plan a microphone in there. But anyway, that's a great story. It's legendary. You've talked about it on your podcast before. But my point being is it has a lot to do, less to do with geography, I would say Scott, and more to do with the people that are presiding over that ceremony. But to your point, let's say what you talked about is true. That would be significant. Just so to be clear, and Steve O'Donnell, while we had him on here, he said he didn't believe that he said if they were making guys in Providence, they would have had to be made. I don't know if he said in Massachusetts, but made by the boss. And since Maddie and Eddie aren't considered bosses, he doesn't believe that Providence could have conducted its own ceremony. Yeah, specific sometimes get conflated and lost through, you know, sources of the telephone game and so forth. So I could be wrong. Yeah, look, traditionally, the boss gives people their button. And so it would be significant if that happened. But I guess what I was driving at is what that does do is sort of reinforce what my reporting has shown, which is the family has relied more and more on associates of the crime family and less so on made members. But that doesn't mean they're not opening the books here and there. My intelligence is that is happening, you know, how they go about it and things like that. Some work still needs to be done there. And look, I think we might learn more potentially. If this Gilmette case goes to trial, which it might not, could settle out, most criminal cases do, some more light could be shed on. Let's also parse that for a second, though, because you have the current case that Dino go met faces, which is a state case. And then you have a federal investigation that theoretically could bring another case. Is that correct? I mean, the case that he's facing now is related to like anti anxiety pills. Yeah, I'm against Gilmette. I'm only familiar with a state case right now. I'm not familiar with a he does not. He doesn't have a federal case. He doesn't have any federal charges. I've heard that he's been investigated along with Maddy, Google, and many in federal narcotics investigation. Well, let's let's be let's be clear. I mean, I think, first of all, a lot of these guys all work. I say these guys, law enforcement guys will work together on task forces. So for instance, we talk about the 2011 case that brought down Louis Minocchio at all. Eddie Lado was there. We later learned that Bobby DeLuca capo is wearing a wire for the FBI, all of that. But also working on that case, we're members of the state police. But so cases, whether it's the feds investigating them or the state cases will be transferred over to the Department of Justice. Why? Because the federal statutes that can be applied in some of these cases, particularly if it's a narcotics cases, you allude to are much stronger. And so you'll still have state investigators working on your members of the intelligence unit of the Rhode Island state police working with FBI DEA. And it can be transferred. Some of the stuff can be kicked over to, you know, federal court in Providence or federal court of Boston, depending on what it is. So for people that are, you know, either Midwesterners or West Coasters, I think it's important to note that in on the East Coast, particularly New England, you have the state police still are very active in organized crime investigations. That's not the case anymore. In Michigan, Illinois, you know, the state police don't deal with the mob guys. It's only a federal beat, if you will. But in Rhode Island, in Massachusetts, the state police are very active investigating. 100%. And organized crime means a lot. Organized crime doesn't mean always capital and mafia or La Cosa Nostra. Traditionally, it does. We actually reported on a recent case the state police brought. It was a fascinating case against a, we have recreational marijuana is legalized here in Rhode Island. There was a cultivator that had ties to a mob associate here. The state shut them down. It was a state police investigation. It ended up that that person had ties to the House Speaker's office, you know, under cover. Scarface Jenkins, who's a associate, acted as muscle over the years for Eddie and Louis. Yeah, he was a silent partner according to the state police in a marijuana grow operation, which by law, he couldn't be. If you have a criminal record, you can't you can't hold a grow license. That's right. And so, and furthermore, the business failed to disclose him as an owner for obvious reasons. And that was a violation of cannabis regulations here. So anyway, that was a state investigation. That was not a federal investigation. So you're right, that law enforcement state, not local really, but state are involved in those types of things. But that includes, like I said, organized crime also includes the Hell's Angels, every active investigations here between on the Hell's Angels, as well as the outlaws and the sub and the pagans, the sub biker affiliates, we have an ongoing beef. I, you know, no surprise between the Hell's Angels and the outlaws here. We had a murder not too long ago in a city, the north of Providence called Patucket that allegedly involves the Hell's Angels. That is a very active investigation right now. I wouldn't be surprised if we hear some developments in all of that. But my understanding is that is a very active state investigation. So you don't, you see them working together a lot. And they like to talk about law enforcement likes to talk about these task forces and how they all work together. But let's be real, each agency wants to make that big arrest. You know, it is competitive in that way. And state police are still active in that game. As you point out right, and rightly so, both in Rhode Island and in Massachusetts, very robust intelligence operations there. So let's get into Eddie Lado for a little bit. Another guy like Maddie and Louis, you know, old school, old timer, OG, it seems like he's been around forever. I love those photos of him. I know that you, you did a great, you can probably still find it online for people that are watching this, but Tim did about 10 years ago, Tim did a great series on the current state of the mafia in Rhode Island at that point. And they have, you guys kind of have like an interactive graphic on the website where you could click on guys and you could see pictures of them from the past. Yes. And you got pictures of Eddie back in the 70s with like white man, Italian Afro. Some great photos. Yeah, Eddie Lado, been a maid guy for, you know, four decades now, was a longtime capo. He got that in that 2011 case, you and I have talked about throughout the segment. He got the stiffest prison term in that nine years. I think it was nine years, right? I have to look, I actually have it here, I'll look. But anyway, by far the, even, and he was a capo at the time. So he got more time than Louis Monaco did. And that's because he has such a lengthy criminal history. And when they do the, the sentencing guideline recommendations to the federal judge, his number was quite high. So anyway, he let me just real quick, Tim, I want to correct something that I said in a previous episode. And I'm my biggest, I'm my worst critic or my toughest critic. I think in a previous episode, I had said that little Eddie had come up in the crew of Eddie Romano Mulligan. And that's incorrect. He was a, he was a Rudy Scar guy. That's what my understanding is. Yeah. And that came up under Rudy. He came up under Rudy. Right. Yeah, not Romano. So I just wanted to clear that for just for the people that remember me saying that I was, I always want to correct the record. And then I'll give, I'll give the floor back to Tim. So in, well, but either way, I mean, we're, even if Bobby DeLuca came up, came up under Eddie Romano, I was confusing them. Okay. And DeLuca also had very strong ties, you know, to the Salemi faction in Massachusetts. But yeah, so I was right. Eddie got 108 months, which if you divide that by 12 is nine years. And the longest sentence there, he did that time and got out whatever it was in 2017, 18, it wasn't okay. 1819, he went to a halfway house in Pawtucket. And then sometime thereafter, he was, according to a state police affidavit in that, that cannabis that was, it was from the cannabis case. Yep. It's actually also, I couldn't remember if it came from that or from that. So you'll have some of the same intel is used in these affidavits in multiple cases. And you had that in the cannabis case. And you also had it in the, in the Gilmette case. He's mentioned it in there as well, but he was, he was named underboss. Now, he's not relatively speaking. He's not all that old. He's 76 years old. You know, when we're talking, he's pretty buff. He's stocky. He's a stocky. I wouldn't, even at 76 years old, I feel like he could do some damage in a street flight. He probably could, but, but he's been sick is our understanding. And, you know, we're obviously all, I heard that as well. Yeah. We understand he's not, he's not doing great. Hopey does well. But, you know, so obviously that's sort of the buzz on the street and within the law enforcement community that, that we talked to, and if something were to happen to him, if he were to continue to get ill, then, you know, the question is, does, does that elevate Maddie, Googly, and Maddie in any way? Again, this is the stuff that just in talking to folks that monitor this is, is what they're watching in, in what it all means. But I, look, they are limping along. The patriarch of crime families limping along in New England, as many crime families are across the country. So there aren't a lot of made members to speak of anyway. And the factions have grown smaller and smaller. But we are seeing evidence that they're still active out there. And that Eddie is a, according to the state police, a key player. Can you talk about his personality and how people view him and what he kind of is known for? Eddie is a very mild mannered guy. And I've interacted with him just a handful of times, you know, actually much of my career here, he's been in prison. But, you know, I interacted with him as he came out of federal court, you know, particularly leading up to the 2011 stuff, and he had multiple cases going on, including facing state charges here. He actually had to come from a federal prison to state. So the few times I've interacted with him, kind of a lot like I said about Louis, I mean, he's old school made guy who was very cordial, very polite, acknowledged you, wasn't rude to you, but he didn't tell you anything coming out of court. And I think, you know, he's, he's a respected guy in the circles in Rhode Island, because he's been around for so long. And he's also, look, in that world, there's a almost like a badge of honor for how much time he served in prison, because he didn't cut any deals. You contrast that with someone like Bobby DeLuca, who has, you've talked about, has denounced the mob, as we referenced earlier in the segment, flipped twice. He flipped twice. He did. And he wore a wire, by the way, Eddie Lado was caught on that wire. And one of my favorite exchanges Eddie had with Bobby. And at the time, you know, I heard it was Bobby DeLuca that wore the wire, but it wasn't revealed until later until actually the Solemi trial is that Eddie was going to Boston to visit Anthony Dunanzio, who's the street boss, the acting boss at the time. And he was complaining to Bobby about basically the pitfalls of being an upper echelon made guy saying, every time I leave my FN house, you know, there's someone watching me, meaning a fed or a member of the state police, and they're following me. And Dunanzio was like complaining to him that he got followed. And he's like, what do you mean they're following me? You're the friggin boss, you know, kind of a thing. So just one of my favorite exchanges from that case was between Eddie and Bobby. So I just want to state something that I've heard. And I know I'm kind of going out of order, but we'll eventually make it back to Boston. But I've heard that as of right now, Carmen Dunanzio is the boss officially, but that Anthony, his brother and Spucky Spadmolo are basically running the day to day. I don't know what exactly the position official positions are. I've heard that Anthony is considered acting boss. Spucky is some type of advisor slash street boss. All you know, guys that have been around for a long time. The Dunanzio's got their button from Louis back in the nineties. Spucky got his button from, I believe the Anjulos or Raymond, he got his button in the late 70s, early 80s, maybe. Yeah, more about that than I do. Yeah. So have you heard anything other than the fact that, and then another thing I want to correct the record for, I got a lot of grief for this and rightfully so. The Dunanzio guys are no longer at the Gemini Social Club in the North End. They moved out of there. I know I said about five or six months ago, I referred to them as the Gemini Social Club guys and people are like, oh, they haven't been there in a year and a half. And again, I should have double checked. I know they're spending their time in Revere and Medford and not as much in their old North End dumping grounds. I mean, talk about granular level corrections that you lose their mind. Oh, yeah. And it makes, I mean, that's, you know, part of an identity or a world or any of that. It's all it's all important to certain sections. And honestly, like most of my reporting is down here, not up in Boston. Right. I'm not saying I'm not asking you to speak on that. I'm just speaking to the people that consume me that remember me saying that and got in my comments section and was very, and they should have, they should have corrected me. I just wanted to state for the record, again, just like I misspoke on Eddie Lado's mentor. I misspoke on the fact that the Dunanzios are still hanging out. Well, I mean, the thing about what, the thing about what you do, which is so exhausting to me, you know, and I obviously track your stuff, you are keeping your, you're trying to keep your finger on the pulse of multiple crime families across the country. My job is easy in comparison. I just have to follow the, you know, what, I mean, I cover a lot in Rhode Island. I cover politics. I moderate gubernatorial and congressional debates I do. So I'm not solely an organized crime reporter, but obviously it's something that the government is still tracking here. They're spending money on it. I'm going to continue to track it if it, if that's something that they prioritize here. So anyway, my point is, you know, if you miss the little granular details here and there, cut yourself a break. Thank you. I tried to. That's unbelievable. But to your point, you asked me about the Dunanzio brothers and Spucky. I'm just going to lean into the reporting I've done and just say that law enforcement agencies have identified Carmen Dunanzio as the boss. To your point, you know, who's pulling the levers and all that. I think really what that means is, and is true, is, you know, the Dunanzio's themselves are the epicenter of power for the, according to intelligence, for the New England crime family. And what that looks like on the ground, again, a lagging indicator. We'll see, we'll see how that plays out. I've also heard that Carmen's dropped about 150 pounds. He's was told by his doctor he was 400 pounds. I mean, that's how big he was. He was told by the doctor if he did not get down to 300 to 275 ish. And I don't know if he's there yet. He might have been over 400, but that he was going to, he was going to die. His heart was just going to give out. Yeah. If your, you know, your listeners Google his name, Carmen, and it's either goes by cheese man or the big cheese Dunanzio. And you do an image search for him. Usually what comes up is his arraignment up in Suffolk, the county up in Boston. And so it wasn't federal court, federal court, no cameras are allowed inside. It was state or in that case county court. And so there's that's usually the image that comes up. And you can see if he has dropped 150 pounds, that'll be a noticeable difference from what you'll see in that image. So I want to talk a little bit about a case that hasn't been brought. And I'm being told it's not going to be brought, you know, as Cadillac, Frank and Bobby DeLuca were pulled out of witness protection in 2016. If you consume this podcast, we've talked, we've done multiple episodes on the Stevie DeSauro slain and the trial Cadillac, Frank and Bobby DeLuca were both in witness protection. And when DeSauro's body got dug up off of Branch Avenue in Providence, spring of 2016, both charged DeLuca flips for the second time is the Star Witness against Cadillac, Frank. Within the cooperation, DeLuca cops to the 1992 Kevin Hanrahan gangland slain, which is one of the one of the more notorious New England mob homicides, you know, in history, September 18th, 1992, on Federal Hill, leaving the Arch Steakhouse. Yep. According to Bobby DeLuca, baby shacks, Eddie Lado, and a deceased former consulieri Rocco Argenti were central in that homicide. I know there have been grand juries that have been convened, no charges, and I'm being told there probably won't be. Do you have any? Yeah, I'm willing to talk a little bit further about that. 100 percent right, Scott. I don't think anyone should be holding their breath for charges on that one. They would have happened by now. My understanding is Bobby DeLuca, as you sort of laid the groundwork, was prepared to testify that Eddie Lado was one of the two men, along with Rocco, that approached Kevin Hanrahan that night of the two men who pulled the trigger. That would have come out in trial, according to Bobby DeLuca. But let's just take a step back and analyze why they didn't press any charges in that case. Yes. And I think it is just safe to say they didn't have much. They, meaning the government, beyond Bobby DeLuca. Bobby DeLuca, and they didn't feel like DeLuca by himself on the witness stand, was a strong enough witness and had the veracity and the ability to overcome a tough cross-examination. And why? And why? Because he was convicted of perjury up in Boston. Now, Boston put him on the stand. He was one of the star witnesses against Cadillac Frank Salem. But you had other people. You had his brother. You had... Right, so Joe DeLuca takes his stand, who just died this year. Stephen the Rifleman, Fleming. Now, all of these characters on their own are flawed, to put it politely, in terms of how a jury will perceive them. But when you put them all together and they're all telling the same story and corroborating the same story, and I know people listening to this are be like, well, of course they're telling the same story because they were coached and blah, blah, blah. But you have to understand the jury's perception of the facts. And you're able to piece it all together that way. In the hand-to-hand case, you don't have all that. The net is pretty narrow. And you really just had the word, primarily, it landed on Bobby DeLuca. And to bring a case like that one, prosecutors really like to only bring cases they know they're going to win or they're going to... a plea deal is going to get cop to, which is like 90-something percent of criminal cases. And they just, I don't think, felt like they had it. You had a new attorney general who came in, Peter Narona, who took over for a predecessor, who had a staff that was very knowledgeable in this area. So you have fresh blood in there. They probably looked at all the work they have to do. And they looked at this case and said, no, thanks. This is not one that I want to take. Here's another difference that in real time thinking about. Uh-oh. This could be dangerous. Between hand-to-hand homicide and disarrow homicide. Well, first of all, disarrow homicide was hindered by the fact that you had no body for... Till 2016. Right. For, you know, 25 years. But you also had a situation with disarrow where it was pretty clear in terms of motive and in terms of a specific group of people that wanted to get rid of him. With hand-to-hand, although I feel like we, the insiders and the people that understand the inside baseball politics, we've probably come to a consensus of why hand-to-hand was killed now that DeLuca has debriefed and shed some light into that. But if you're in front of a jury and you're a defense attorney worth his salt, hand-to-hand had a dozen people that wanted him dead. There are a dozen different reasons why he could have been killed. And I think it speaks to why we didn't really know exactly why he was murdered until the last handful of years. There was the, I mean, I had always, my research until DeLuca told us what we know now. I was under the impression, and I think a lot of other people were, that the hand-to-hand murder had something to do with hand-to-hand extorting... Some bookmakers. Bookmakers that belong to Salemi. And that really, it might have played a small role, but now it looks like the reason hand-to-hand was killed is that he was recruited. This is crazy to think if this is true, and I believe it is, that Raymond Jr. from behind bars was upset with Frank Salemi over the fact that Salemi had sold his classic car collection because Salemi was upset that Patriarcha Jr. hadn't paid for his hospital bills in his assassination attempt in 1989. And Patriarcha Jr. from prison, according to DeLuca, hires hand-to-hand to try to kill Salemi in Minocchio. Yeah, and some of that has come out. I mean, not the junior stuff, but some of the details about the hand-to-hand as a hitman on Minocchio and Salemi has come out in court filings, and I think the government was testing some of that theory because you are right. Kevin Hand-to-hand had about as many enemies as anyone on this planet, if you will. I mean, I'm exaggerating a little bit, but he ran a lot in southeastern Massachusetts, so for your listeners not familiar with the area like Taunton, Fall River, New Bedford. He's very close to Timmy the Batmallow. Timmy Mallow, who's still around. All of that. And he was close to Salemi. I mean, for a period of time, he was doing a lot of work for Salemi. I know that he was present at the altercation that came out in court when Tommy Hillary, who was Raymond, the LS patriarch, was kind of adopted surrogate son, got thrown out of town by Frank Salemi for stealing. I know that Salemi had a whole kind of entourage with him. I think it was 1990 or 1991 at a Chinese restaurant in Plymouth, I think. And Hand-to-hand was part of that entourage, where he was hanging with all these rivals. So people mainly think about Cadillac Frank as a Boston guy. He was actually from Sharon, Massachusetts, which is closer to the areas that we just described there. So I'm actually unfamiliar and fascinated with that Chinese food restaurant story. You just pop up. I don't. Well, at first we thought it was in China. Well, I've been able to glean. I got some documents from the transcripts of Hillary's testimony. At first, I think it looked like it was in Chinatown. But then I saw another thing that claimed that it was in the suburbs. I think someone said it was in Plymouth. But Tommy Hillary was working at the channel, the nightclub that the Salamis and DeSauro owned and had swiped like $5,000 to give to a girlfriend to start a nail shop or fashion line. Didn't sit well with Cadillac Frank. And he called them to the restaurant. He had a whole group of people there. Hand-to-hand was there. Bobby DeLuca was there. I believe Denny Lepore. Denny Lepore was there. Harpo Garabadian was there, who also recently died. And Tommy Hillary showed up thinking that Tommy Hillary was going to go there to meet a guy to talk about a stolen shipment of silk shirts. Salami wanted to meet him there without knowing that Hillary didn't know that Salami's crew was going to be there when he showed up. And Hillary shows up and he sits down with the guy that he's negotiating the silk shirt deal with. And Frank gets up and says, I want to talk to you in another booth. And then the next thing you know, Frank's got his hands around Hillary's neck, telling him, get the fuck out of town if I see you. The next time I see you here, I'll kill you on the spot. Some of that came out in court testimony. Then I got some other stuff that collared it up in a document. But it was interesting to me that Frank Salami was rolling with like 10 guys and one of them was Kevin Hanrahan, who he's alleged to have ordered murdered. Again, I think what your original point is, brings up the problems with the case. To steal your words, any defense attorney worth their salt is going to point to all this other stuff in the relationship with like, why would he ever kill this guy? It's all bogus. And the one person that the government is getting their information from was convicted of surgery is to say the least that who's cut some deals, by the way, to get out of prison and to be relocated down to Florida, it's a problem for that case. So no, I don't think we're going to see, to wrap up the Hanrahan thing, I don't think we're ever going to see what would truly be judicial closure on that case. But I think there's enough information floating around there for people in the orbit and for the public to kind of get an understanding of what happened behind the scenes and all of that. In terms of disarrow, I want to get your opinion. I've come to the conclusion, because I've been asking myself this since they dug up the body in 16, about both those guys had opportunities to get clear of that while they were in their initial debriefings. They're called proper sessions that you give with the FBI. And they both opted not to. At first, I said to myself, well, Salemi was protecting his son because his son was the guy that actually killed allegedly, well, not allegedly, he's been convicted or the case has been adjudicated, allegedly strangled, or not allegedly, a strangled disarrow to death in the Salemi family kitchen in front of his father and uncle allegedly. But then I realized he was dead at that point. So what I've, what I've, in my head, what I've, how I've made sense of this is that Bobby DeLuca and Frank Salemi were so close that they both were protecting each other until they could no longer protect each other, that Salemi did not give up the disarrow murder because A, he didn't want to give up Bobby and B, he didn't want to give up his brother Jackie. Maybe, you know, I don't know. I think, particularly with Bobby, the motivation is almost certainly Joe. And Joe, according to his own testimony helped bury disarrow's body off a branch have behind the mill building, as you said, like a half an hour ago, owned by Billy Ritchie, who got jammed up in a pot case. There we are. That's the full arc in like 10 seconds. And that he was protecting Joe. What, whether or not Salemi was protecting Bobby and maybe that was an element too for Bobby protecting Salemi. I'm less likely to believe it with Bobby because at this point, you know, he's already cooperating with the government. He's already, he's in a proper session for a reason, right? Salemi less so that proper session was more about going after Whitey and Fleming, taking them out. That's what he wanted to do because they're traders. You know, I've talked to people like, you know, Salemi never technically broke the oath of America by doing that. You could debate it, whatever. No, he didn't testify against John Connelly. He didn't testify against even just talking about it. You know, one might believe he was a rat or cooperator, but in terms of what he did in court, Stan, he didn't put away any LCN figures. Right. Bobby on the flip side did, right? He literally down the road wore a wire for the FBI and all of that. So I'm not so sure. There's no, the old phrases, there's no honor among thieves. And you might be right. Who knows? We can't, the Cadillac Frank is dead. Bobby's in the wind. We can't read their minds about their motivation, but I always think that the most obvious answer is almost always the right one. And I just lie. Their DNA tells them the lie. So they lie. That's right. That's right. And particularly it's one thing to talk about this case and that case and who's in power. Things like, we're talking about a murder and unsolved murder who Bobby connected Joe to Frank to pick up the body. You remember, Bobby was supposed to go and pick up the body of Stephen DeSauro, but it was Joe that went, because Joe wanted to protect his brother in that case. So he went. And it's also crazy to me, and it shows you what a cowboy Cadillac Frank was. This guy was the boss of the family and he's delivering a body. Well, you could use another word like we're going back to Louie. He wouldn't have done that. You would never, Louie would be 20 people removed from something like that. Frank's actually putting a body in his trunk and taking it across state lines. But hey, Frank was a hands on boss. What can you say? Real blue collar hard working guy where he, I mean, it happened in his kitchen. It happened in his kitchen. I mean, the type of guy that wanted to see it done. It seems to me, again, from talking to people, I talked to Frank himself. I didn't talk to him about this murder, but that his son was a point of pride to him. His son being a tough guy was a point of pride to him. And he wanted to be there when his son strangled someone to death as disturbing as that sounds. Just on an anecdotal notion, I've been with criminals when they're with their sons. And it's so different than like when I'm with my father. My father's bragging about my son had a book that that sold X amount or my son was on the television show. And then sometimes I contrast it with some, I'll be with some wise guys and their son and they'll be introducing me to their son and be like, my son beat up this guy at this place. And he robbed the store at this place. Like he's bragging about him in a criminal way, the way that my father brags about me and my journalistic endeavors. In some ways, it's not all that different. Is it? If you think about it, you know, I've always described Frank Salami Jr as exactly like his father without any of the charisma or likability. I never met him. You know, I never met him either. I'm just from talking to people. I met Frank Sr. I never met Frank Jr. But I just his I've never I haven't I've talked to two dozen people that knew Frankie Boy and not one of them had a positive thing to say about as opposed to Cadillac Frank, who he was crazy and he had his enemies and he was Wild West cowboy mob guy. But there were people that were fiercely loyal to him and loved him to the day died. Yeah, he was always in the crosshairs. I mean, I guess I guess every boss is always in the crosshairs. But boy, it felt more like with Cadillac Frank, he was more in the crosshairs than most. And I think some of it is, you know, he did put his money where his mouth is in terms of he was a tough, scary guy who as I joked about, but it's true was very, very hands on. And very ambitious. Yes, very ambitious. And it feels like ancient history, but it wasn't too long ago. I mean, the 1990s and the crime family was still humming along at that time. So he took the reins of the crime family after junior at a really tumultuous time, yes, to say the least. And there was a lot of a lot of infighting there. And there were always rumors that New York would take over New England at that time. And there was a push from Springfield, because I'm sure most of your listeners know, but Springfield is actually controlled by New York. The Genovese Outfit as well as the Patriarch Outfit. That's right. But that also harkens back to the the Patriarch crime family's ties to the Genovese crime family and the respect, loyalty, whatever word you want to use there between those two. But who knows, there could be an expiration date on that. I mean, technically, if going back to another conversation we had, technically, if something happens to Eddie and there's a new underboss that comes up, you know, New York is usually involved in something like that. But who knows what the state of affairs now particularly if the intelligence you have is true about some of the way some they open the books within the past year or so. I mean, who knows, then times have changed. We definitely know from court records and debriefings and so forth that surveillance audio recordings that Cadillac Frank needed the support of the Gambino's to solidify his regime in New England. He had big Chris Richichi come to town who was one of John Gotti's guys and they wind and dined him in the north end. They met him at the Hilton Hotel by the airport. By the airport and bugged the meeting. Yep, that's right. That was in court for the testimony of the FBI agent who was in the other room next door bugging that whole thing. But to your point, that was a big deal in that time for Cadillac Frank and sort of legitimized him and his power to have someone like that sent by the Gambino's to come up. But it's still a Genovese connection, I would say. Again, all lagging indicators things can change at any time. But for him, there was a view at that time that the New England crime family was at a real weak point when the transition was happening from junior to Salemi. And if there's a vacuum, someone's going to fill it. So that was, I guess, a testament to Cadillac Frank Salemi that he was able to hold on to power. He didn't hold on to power for all that long. But he was able to take control. It's pretty interesting. It seems to me that there was a miscalculation in 84 when Raymond L.S. Patriot died. From what I can understand, he hadn't really named a successor. Raymond Jr. kind of threw his hat into the ring. And the New York guys got behind him because he was L.S.'s... Yo, that was a total respect. 100%. And they really do the math that this guy isn't equipped for this position and it quickly played out that way. And I want to point out also in that disharmony that was going on in 89, with Cadillac Frank almost getting killed and a war almost breaking out that, according again to FBI records and document surveillance reports, there was a wedding Labor Day 89, I believe, in Long Island, I think, that a contingent of Boston guys went to led by Vinnie Ferrara and Joe Russo, where Gotti was there and called them into a meeting in a back room and told them make peace. And that was one of the reasons that led to the... Well, Joe Russo was in Medford. And Joe Russo, was he the consigliary at the time? Yeah, yes. There was some type of get-together in Maverick Square in late August where the Providence guys and the Boston guys all came together as like a show of good faith. I had heard it was for Joe Russo's birthday, but then I looked and it didn't make sense his birthday wasn't around that time. But Cadillac Frank did not go. I think he was in exile at that point. Well, he was also not at that ceremony in Medford, Massachusetts. And I think that's significant because you had some people at that ceremony that tried to kill him. And so, yeah, Gotti, I guess, wanted to make peace. But more than Gotti wanted to make peace. Raymond Junior wanted to make peace because I think he was really, really concerned that he was next. Because you say there was almost a war? I don't know, Scott. I think there was a war. Yeah. And I mean, the guy in Connecticut who was killed, I'm drawing a blank on his name. You're better with names than I am, but he was killed at the same time. Oh, I mean, Billy Grasso. Billy Grasso, thank you. The underboss. Grasso was snuffed out the same day. Same day. It was a coordinated attack. So let me go, you know, gun down outside a pancake place in Saugus, Massachusetts. You know, I mean, it was happening at that time. And there's Raymond Junior looking around him going, oh my gosh, you know, I could be next. So I don't think anyone was happier to do a ceremony where the Joey Russo's of the world wanted this person made. And then Bobby was that was when Bobby was inducted. Which is interesting. Another thing I found in some old documents recently was I had already had always assumed, and this is the problem that you shouldn't have assumed, that Salemi had Salemi and Raymond Junior had put Bobby DeLuca up for his button. That's not the case. JR Russo and Vinny Ferrara put Bobby up for his button because of all the work Bobby did during the war, even though he wasn't a made guy. He was a conduit between both of those sides. He got along with Ferrara and Russo from some previous dealings and then was acting as a mouthpiece liaison for Patriarcha Junior. And then when things had settled down, Russo and Ferrara put up DeLuca for his button. Yeah, DeLuca had really strong ties to the Massachusetts faction of the organized crime. As you point out, even before he got his button in 1989, and that continued when Salemi took over. I mean, Salemi and DeLuca real tight. Really tight. And actually Bobby broke up a fight in prison between Salemi and I forget who it was, but it was when the big indictments all came down in 1994 and all that. It was one of the bolder guys. Yeah, someone from that faction and Salemi was going to kill him. I don't know why they were all together in the same holding cell. I think it was because DeLuca was in the case with Salemi in the 94. So they were in a defense, they were co-defendants, so they were allowed to meet to discuss their case. Yeah, but anyway. So DeLuca stepped in, had Salemi's back, all of that. So he goes way back. But I think on the flip side, there was always a little bit of distrust and providence of Bobby DeLuca from guys like Anthony, the Saint Saint Laurent, who was the capital. They hated each other. They hated each other. And Anthony, he handled Rhode Island, but he had a big chunk of that area where Kevin Hanrahan ran and South East and Mass, Taunton, Fall River, all that. And he really distrusted Bobby DeLuca, obviously, for, as we know now, good reason. But that relationship that Bobby had with Massachusetts, I think, sort of played into Anthony's disdain for Bobby. And there were others like that that didn't really trust himself. It's interesting, though, that they sent Bobby on the night of Grasso's murder and the assassination attempt on Salemi. All the maid guys, Mehdi, Gugli Mehdi, the Saint, Raymond Jr., all gathered at the Saint's house. And they called Bobby and they said, Bobby, go to the North End and go talk to Vinny and JR and see if this came from them. And he didn't even have a button. No, thank you. No, thank you. As we're wrapping up here, I just want to throw one more thing at you to get your opinion on some opinion on my reporting, not just my reporting, but also on some documentation from the state police in Massachusetts. It appears that Vinny the animal Ferrara, who was a major figure in the war and all the unrest in the 80s, was a younger guy at that point, college educated as a business degree from Boston College, was mentored by the Anjulo brothers, specifically Danny Anjulo, and then was very close to JR Russo, did about 15 years in prison. He was doing life on a murder that eventually got tossed. It was actually a close friend of his named Jimmy Lomoli. He was murdered in 1985 in the North End, comes out of prison in 0506. Everything I've been hearing is that he was pretty much retired, owns a lot of property, very rich from the legitimate means a lot of parking garages in the North End, I've heard. But then there was a case about 10 years ago that he got caught, looked like he was bookmaking a little bit. And then in the last year, year and a half, it's come out in court filings that he is the target of a Massachusetts state police racketeering investigation. My reporting is that whether it be the Denuncio brothers or someone else in the admin has given Frank, or not Frank, has given Vinnie Norfolk County in Massachusetts and that he's in charge of it in some capacity and that he acts in some pseudo-conciliatory role. I know that the feds confiscated about a quarter million dollars, not the feds, the state police confiscated about a quarter million dollars from a bank account that they claim was illegally legal funds that were in that bank account. Do you have any opinions or takes on where Vinnie the animal stands today in 2023? I don't, and I don't because I haven't done the reporting on it that you have, again, got my hands full in Rhode Island. I'm familiar with what you're talking about, but only as someone who's sort of consumed what you've put out there. But, I mean, his surname is one of the most infamous in all of the New England crime family, and I think it goes back to what you pointed out rightfully so earlier in our discussion, which is sort of a unique thing in New England that you have state police in both Rhode Island and Massachusetts doing these types of cases, and they just have that institutional knowledge, more so than I would say than the feds sometimes do with these kind of players and can bring these kinds of cases. So I'm more fascinated as sort of a consumer of it than as someone investigating it myself from a journalistic standpoint. But do me a favor, Scott. If you hear any of it overlap into my world, I'll give you a text. Give me a text. Well, Tim, this was awesome, man. Thank you so much for joining me. People like yourself make this type of podcast possible, because the knowledge that you bring, the insight that you bring is invaluable, and thank you so much. Scott, it was a pleasure. Thanks for having me. Hopefully, Tim came on the audio version before we went to video a year or two ago, so maybe we'll make this a yearly update. Let's do it. We'll see you in 2024 for another patriarchal family update. Thank you, Tim, Benny behind the glass, and everybody out there in OG Podland. I'm Scott Bernstein. I'll see you next week. I'm out.