 down the side or so they're unhappy and that goes that goes beyond just historic preservation district that's just ran into our couple of days she was packing up to go camping and I said, are you going to make it to the meeting on Wednesday? Oh yeah, I told Lisa, I said, she's going camping. I should know that somebody turned in on this and somebody's probably going to be part of our good discussion today. Chair Muser, we'll need a minute before we get started. Chair Muser, we're ready to get started when you're ready. Okay, we're going to call to order the June 21st meeting of the City of Santa Rosa Cultural Heritage Board. I'd like to welcome all the board members and city staff. Members of the public can participate in the meeting by attending in person from the council chambers located at 100 Santa Rosa Avenue. It is recommended that social distancing be observed or via Zoom webinar by visiting. HTTPS double slash SR city dash org dot zoom dot us slash J slash eight four three nine zero four six two two four two or by dialing eight seven seven eight five three five two five seven and entering webinar ID. Eight four three nine zero four six two two four two public comment may be made live during the meeting via Zoom, phone or in person from the council chambers. Additional information related to meeting participation is available at HTTPS double slash www dot SR city dot org slash five eight five slash cultural dash heritage dash board. The meeting will be live streamed at HTTPS double slash center Santa Rosa dot legislature dot com slash calendar click on the in progress link to view. The meeting can also be viewed Comcast channel 28 and at HTTPS double slash www dot youtube dot com slash city of Santa Rosa. At this time, I would like to ask our recording secretary Kramer if we could have roll call. Board Member Boran is absent. Board Member Carney. Here. Board Member Fennell. Board Member Klein. Here. Vice Chair Garrett. Chair Muser. Here. Let the record reflect that all board members are present with the exception of Board Member Boran. Thank you. We're going to item two approval of the minutes. We have our May 3rd 2023 draft minutes to approve. Does anybody have any additions or changes to those minutes? Any board members? Seeing no changes, we'll move that those minutes be approved. Item three public comment. This is a time when any person may address the matters not listed on this agenda, but which are within the subject matter of the jurisdiction. The public may comment on agenda items when the item is called. Each speaker is allowed three minutes. So Secretary Kramer, do we have any members of the public wishing to comment at this time? If no members of the public in person, nor on Zoom. Okay. With that, I'll close item three public comment. Moving on to item four, board business. I'll start out by reading the Cultural Heritage Board Statement of Purpose. The municipal duties of the board include undertaking and updating historic inventories or surveys, recommending designation of landmarks and preservation districts, reviewing proposed alterations to historic buildings, and promoting public awareness of preservation issues. If you're in a historic district or would like more information regarding historic districts, please see the Processing Review Procedures for Owners of Historic Properties. With that, do any of our board members have anything they'd like to report at this time? And item 4.3, other. I don't believe we have any other items tonight. So that moves us to Ms. Murray, Department Reports. Sorry, I had to move my snacks out of the way. Yeah, actually I do. I wanted to let everybody know that the activity for the Cultural Heritage Board is starting to rev up its engines. So if you could all keep tabs on your emails, your city email, and make sure that you respond to quorum checks, we'll be sending those out. We try to do those. Sometimes we have to do those pretty far in advance. So if you can respond to those as soon as they arrive or within a couple of days, both Lonnie and I will appreciate it very much. I also wanted to just cover, I wanted to confirm that everybody did receive the update on Fremont Park and we'll be looking forward. I'll follow up with Parks Department again to find out when that'll be coming forward. But I think that you'll see that on an upcoming agenda with what the scope of it will be. I have no idea. I'll defer the Parks Department. But I know you asked for an update last time and I did send an email. Ms. Murray, do you know if they did move forward with a historic evaluation or creating a report? Yeah, they have moved forward with the historic evaluation and I believe they've received it. And I think that's what's coming to you. But I don't know that for sure because I don't remember what my email said. And I'm hoping, yeah, the question, did she hit send? I can look at that, pull it up if you'd like. I brought it up. I thought that was one that I could check off the list during the meeting. I'll get back to you and let you know what the status is. Yeah, that'd be great. And if possible, if it's going to be on the agenda, if we could get the report as much in advance as possible so we'd have time because I have a feeling it's probably going to be fairly lengthy and might need some time to review it before the meeting. We are limited in how much time we have with the Brown Act that we can't get it to the board prior to getting it to the public. I can work with admin staff and see if there's any possibility of posting a day or two early. But I think that's probably going to be the best that you can get. Okay. Thank you. You bet. Okay, moving on to item six, statement of abstentions based on our agenda tonight. We shouldn't have a need for any abstentions. I don't believe. Move on to item seven, consent items. We have none. So that brings us to our scheduled items starting with 8.1, which is a report on the Santa Rosa House. And our presenter is Connor McKay. So, Connor, we're going to turn it over to you. Thank you. Good afternoon, Chair Muser and members of the board. I'm very happy to be here this afternoon to present the House Santa Rosa project. And let's get into what that is. So the House Santa Rosa project is a grant funded initiative to accelerate the production of housing and help the city reach its compliance with regional housing needs assessment. So this, like I said, is a grant funded initiative. And we've been, the city of Santa Rosa has been granted a, it's a local early action program grant provided by the housing and community development department in Sacramento. And the objective of that grant, like I said, is to facilitate the production of housing and help local jurisdictions achieve their required number of housing units over a five or six year cycle. So in January of 2022, we rewarded this grant. And then July of that year, we went full steam ahead with the project, which I will get into shortly. In December, we distributed surveys about the project, providing information and soliciting feedback about the project itself. And in September of this year, the grant must be fully expended. So to get into the actual deliverables of this project. So back in the rebuild, back in the fire recovery efforts, we, the city of Santa Rosa developed what we call the Resilient City Parcel Tool Search. And this allowed a user to search an address and see site specific development information about that site. So you could see if it was in a hillside area, you could see if it was in a historic district, you could see site specific setbacks and building height requirements. So it made it really easy for folks who lost their home in the fire to get right back and start rebuilding their home. So the idea of this deliverable is to take the idea of that tool and scale it city-wide. So that first, that Resilient City Tool only applied to parcels that were affected by the fires, but this tool will take that idea and it'll apply it city-wide. So you could look any property in the city, you search that address or you can scroll around on a map and understand what are the regulations that apply to this property for development of housing. And the flip side of that is you can, if you're a developer or an interested community member, you can enter in a project and you can get a list of parcels that fit those criteria. So let me show you a bit of a visual to help you understand. So this is what the tool looks like as it stands today. There's a lot of development and user interface improvements to be made, but this is like the very foundational kind of bare-bone structure of the tool. So you'll see the map in the middle that you can zoom in on that map and you can find a property and understand how that property can be developed. Or on the far right, if you have a specific project in mind with specific criteria, you can enter in details about that project and understand where in the city that project can be developed. So for example, a developer would like to build a 25-unit project with five units dedicated to very low-income households and 10 units dedicated to low-income households. They are looking for a currently vacant site that allows for a 35-foot structure and in an area that does not require on-site parking. So using the tool, they can enter that information on the sidebar of the tool that's next to the map and identify parcels in the city that fit those exact criteria. So as you can see, I entered in the project details that I outlined in the previous slide and two parcels in the city could accommodate those criteria. And then you can zoom in and click on one of those parcels and you would see that site-specific development regulation like I mentioned. And these are just kind of examples of what we would show. We're still building out the regulations and also the incentives. So if there's any incentives such as, like I said, no parking requirement or being located to transit or approximate to schools or in like a nearby public park. So you can really understand just like a one-stop shop of everything that affects how the parcel could be developed and there's some potential incentives to build housing there. And of course, we would have, if the parcel was located in a historic district, we would definitely have that information and we would include guidelines as to how a developer could proceed with development for housing at that parcel. And then the second deliverable of the House Santa Rosa project is a real-time development map and dashboard. The vast majority of this work has already been completed but what we're doing is we're refining the data that we're collecting about projects that has been identified to be important to the community and sharing that on this online map and dashboard. So this will really allow the community and elected officials and city staff to understand how the city is developing and what ways and in what areas and over what timeframe. And part of the surveys that we distributed, we understand that the community is really concerned about parking and we have decided to take that feedback and now we're incorporating data about parking into our project permit files and our internal permitting software. So the idea with reporting and data is that you can't report on data that you don't collect. So we've been refining the fields that we enter in about projects say, okay, this project needs 55 parking spaces so we enter that into the permit record and then we can tell that story about, okay, this project, yes, it's 45 feet tall, it has 55 parking spaces because oftentimes we hear from council members and members of the community that they're really concerned about things like that and we're trying to provide all of that information in an understandable way online. This also allows city staff to analyze the effectiveness of state and local policies that are trying to incentivize the production of housing. So if we're saying we want a specific area of the city to see some increased intensity, we can say, okay, over the course of this policy being adopted, how did that actually affect on the ground the development of housing in that area? So here's what the tool looks like right now. So on the bottom left, you have a cluster map with all those blue dots being projects and you could click on one and then that list at the top would update to just be that one project that you selected. The top of the tool is all of the list of projects and the bottom right are those filters that you can filter the projects by. So if you wanna say like projects located in historic districts, you could see a list of the projects that are specifically located in that area and you could also learn more about that project, number of parking spaces, building height, if it received a density bonus and things of that nature. Yeah. And like I said, so that bottom right area is really where we're refining because like I said, we understand certain data is more important to the community than others so we're adding more filters so users of the tool could really understand granular details about projects throughout the city. And I've gone through a lot of the objectives kind of throughout the presentation so far but we're really trying to help community members and developers understand how parcels throughout the city can be developed. We oftentimes see as we go through the entitlement process for projects that lives across the street from a historically vacant site. It was passed down to them throughout the generations that that parcel was zoned for open space so they get completely blindsided when they see a postcard of the mail that says it's proposed for multifamily housing. So the idea of the development feasibility tool while it's a good tool for developers we're hoping to engage the community earlier on in the potential for development in their community and in their neighborhoods so really trying to be transparent about the potential, the future potential of their neighborhoods on a site-specific basis. And then also that real-time development report and dashboard and map we're trying to provide greater transparency about the housing projects. What kind of housing is being built? What stage of the process is that housing in? Things of that nature. And then also there's requirements by the state to provide reporting for housing production and right now that has been a very manual process for staff and we're with the development and refinement of this tool we're going to be able to really ease the staff time that's required to provide those reports so we can do other more important things. And it's been a really collaborative effort throughout the city of Santa Rosa team and I'm really happy to meet with a bunch of folks and you all this afternoon to make these tools the best that they can be. So we are, like I mentioned we're building out additional regulations and incentives of development so if you click on a parcel you really get a full picture of what it would take to build a housing project at that property and like I said we're introducing more filters based on new data that we're creating and our new data framework on our internal permitting software and today we're presenting to you all and we're actually going to be presenting to planning commission early next month so not tomorrow but early next month and last week we presented to the design review board and they gave us some great feedback and opportunities for improvement and I really am looking forward to hearing what you all think and responding to your questions about what you've seen and I know it's a lot and there's a lot of technical things and I've learned a lot in this process so please don't feel afraid to ask me whatever you what's ever on your mind so yeah like I said the requested action is to just give us some feedback on maybe some of the specific tools that I just presented to you and I'm available to answer any questions as needed there's my contact information if you have something that doesn't come up today but it does later thank you thank you Mr. McKay I think before I bring it back to the board for discussion and questions go ahead and just open it up for public comment so Miss Kramer if we could see if we have anybody out there that would like to comment on this subject there are no current people in person for public comments nor on zoom okay I'll close public comment so at this time I'd like to open this up to board members if you have questions or Mr. McKay on the subject or clarifications did you say that you could use designated open space for building these houses no so that example was a situation where we hear a lot as current development planners is that when they get a postcard in the mail about a proposed housing development they've been told maybe they're grandparents that that vacant parcel is designated for open space but that's not the reality so ideally this tool could provide that level of information that's like well what actually could be built across the street for me and kind of bring more of a policy and zoning code based information to that family I've got a couple how will the general public be able to access how Santa Rosa once it's launched we are in the middle of a a facelift of our website I guess you could say and I think that part of that broader effort will really incorporate data and maps as kind of the first and foremost thing that is provided to people because right now when you go in there it's a lot of layers and different websites and links to links to links so I think we're trying to consolidate and as part of the effort to be transparent about development and about regulations I think we'll have kind of a main splash landing area about data and housing and I think this will be kind of folded into that effort will this replace or be in addition to the current GIS map that's available online it will be in addition to like I said we're trying to make all of those different tools consolidate in a way without missing out on the original intent of those tools so we don't want to completely pull the rug out of GIS in favor of this because people all work differently but I think what we're trying to really do is say like okay if you want to know this information you can go here if you want to know this information you can go here but have them all start in a common location are all the parcels that are being identified vacant lots no so part of the data creation efforts just made vacant parcel as an attribute of a parcel but we're looking at where all of the parcels in the entire city will be incorporated into this database I can see as a real estate agent or a potential buyer of property this being a very valuable tool and and I'm wondering if some of the elements of being that are requirements and such of being in a historic neighborhood could be added to those properties that are in historic like height limitations some of the hard rules that are in there so that as a real estate agent or a potential buyer if I went to that tool and I went to that property I could see that yes it's in a historic neighborhood and this is what it means being in a historic neighborhood this kind of ties into our next discussion or next item but I can see it being a great tool for real estate agents to really know kind of what's involved in being in a historic neighborhood I have a question anyone can use this I mean anyone can go online and it's very easy friendly for people to use yes it's not public yet and I'm glad it's not because it's very user unfriendly but we're looking at ways to simplify the platform as it's laid out currently and make it very user friendly and also have little question marks on maybe terms that are more technical like landmark alteration permit what does that mean so you can hover over a question mark and say the landmark alteration permit is required for most development in historic neighborhoods so yes well I want to thank you very much for coming and making I think it's an outstanding tool please make it easier than the current GIS I have trouble negotiating through it but boy anything we can do to eliminate confusion regarding historic neighborhoods and have a tool that you know people can go to and look at that property and really get a picture of what it means to be in that property that's I think it's a great project congratulations thank you with that I'll close item Ms. Farre I was just going to interject before you open the next item if I can give you an update from the Fremont park that would be wonderful okay the information that I thought I forwarded on to you is that they were expecting the draft of the historic evaluation in May there was a meeting scheduled the first week of June to after staff review of the draft for edits with the company that was the consultant that was preparing the report and once they've gotten to that point the report will be brought to the heritage or the cultural heritage board and I will forward the email I looked in my son email and it doesn't look as though I did but it will be on your desktops when you get home please read it thank you I thought it was just me so I wasn't speaking up I'd like to see that email thank you very much I appreciate that report moving on to item 8.2 title the cultural heritage board will brainstorm ideas without the benefit of permits and Miss Murray is going to make our staff report I'm going to go ahead and just read out loud the background on this first and then I'll turn it over to you so at the cultural heritage board meeting held on June 1st 2022 emotion was made and seconded to add a discussion regarding changes to properties and structures within Santa Rosa's preservation districts without benefit of permits at the meeting on December 7th 2022 the cultural heritage board voted to add the discussion onto a future agenda the purpose of this agenda item is to facilitate a discussion between cultural heritage board members regarding working being done without the benefit of permits in a preservation district and the staff report is going to be presented by Miss Murray that pretty well summarized my staff report this is the third and final step to kick off the discussion between the members of the cultural heritage board to more of a discussion on a brainstorm to try and figure out a way to simplify the permitting process for homeowners or property owners really within preservation districts where there are more restrictive requirements so I am available to answer questions about current permitting requirements and you can go ahead and start the discussion okay board member Fennel actually brought this to our attention and I had actually had it on my mind as well probably in the neighborhood we live in we tend to see a lot of Sunday Sunday activities and it got us to really think about why this is happening and so this is not going to be just a real quick simple solution and I'm kind of asking all board members to delve into this to delve into the policies to delve into the cost to really familiarize yourself with understanding what a homeowner needs to do to get a major landmark or a minor landmark alteration permit what costs are involved what process are involved and so today we're just going to discuss it and have kind of an answer question and answer period but anyway in the end I'm hoping that we'll be able to probably continue this to give especially our new board members an opportunity to feel more comfortable with the background on this subject so maybe Laura if I can put you on the spot to start off see what your thoughts or questions might be on this well as a real estate agent and someone that sells homes specifically primarily in historic districts I can't tell you how frustrated it is to walk into some of these homes and go oh my god I saw this home four years ago and there are vinyl windows and this house was you know had all of these wonderful you know historic accents and things and to see them just destroyed and or to drive through my neighborhood on a Monday and go oh my god there's vinyl windows on that house that had double hung solid wood windows Thursday or Friday and I know that Cappy can affirm how many times we've sat in meetings and unfortunately had new homeowners come in and say oh my god I had no idea that the previous owners had done this and hadn't done it with permits so my my thought was from a kind of a two pronged approach was that we have in real estate there's like three or four forms that somebody gets in the purchase of their home that lets them know that they are in a designated historic district and that there are rules and responsibilities but maybe even having something that takes it further so I'm so tired of hearing the begging for forgiveness rather than asking for permission so my thing is not necessarily trying to make this wonderful fluffy easy thing because we all buy in these if you own a home in a historic district there are rules and responsibilities that we all knowingly take on or should knowingly take on and if you don't know then whatever we should either provide something that goes to new homeowners or find something that we do a check regularly on changes of title that we send them so that they can't turn around and say oh my god I didn't know I bought 17 vinyl windows and what do you mean I can't put them in or I completely destroyed my house and I shouldn't have but wow what do we do now because this is really going to be a problem and so it wasn't like a warm fuzzy thing necessarily for me coming forward and saying that I want I want to give everybody the information they need but I also want to start coming after the people that don't do what they're supposed to do and don't come because we are friendly and we're lovely people and we're here to help and we're not fighting people when they do come we sit down and we try to formulate something that's going to be helpful and wonderful and we are a resource that more often than not is being looked at like a police state rather than a resource and I want so I'd like to come up with something that we can talk to people about the rules and responsibilities that are part of owning a home in this historic district and it was a wonderful resource and it was a resource at the time that I asked if that was ever provided to other people and I think it's a great opportunity to talk to people and I think it's a great opportunity to talk to people and I think it's a great opportunity to talk to people and I think it's a great opportunity to talk to people about the rules and responsibilities that was ever provided to other neighborhoods you know something sent out on next store saying if you want to know what the rules and responsibilities of living in this neighborhood or this neighborhood are come down and we will you know we could probably fill this place up with people that want to know but then there's always going to be an excuse that is no longer an excuse that can be given that oh my god I didn't know oops you know and I mean Cappy how many meetings have we sat through where it was oh my god I had no idea you know and I know that when I wanted to put my picket fence up it was $400 to put a picket fence in my front yard you know and I did it because you know I knew that I needed to know but there's they don't know people don't know even about picket fences or front fencing in their historic districts and I would love to see the city be more proactive with meetings within these districts or you know something like I said with changes of of address and home ownership changes that there's something like welcome to living in a historic district and these are your things and these are the things that we can help you with and you know explain that there's a board that helps advise them and guide them and you know make it less scary but I also am just tired of the oh my gosh how did this you know I didn't know I didn't know and it's like some of them are contractors some of them are real estate agents there have been and just ignored the rules and that's what I'm tired of I'm tired of you know we are a resource but it's hard to sit through some of this stuff and go oh my god you you know you did know thank you Laura and public outreach too is something didn't the board at one time Kathy didn't the board members assigned to historic neighborhoods at one time I mean that's something else that maybe as a board we can yeah okay I think Kathy's ready to yeah I agree completely with Laura I think it's unfair to the historic district I'm sorry it's unfair to the historic district and to the new home owner not to have information on historic districts and I believe that the city some people in the city anyway understand the value of the historic districts I think they bring a lot to the city of Santa Rosa and I agree it's really hard to have people come in here and say oh I didn't know I didn't do that and half the time they actually really do know and yet you feel guilty because you're forcing them to take out whatever they put in because it wasn't allowed they didn't get a permit everybody who builds anything in the city gets a permit and so there's really not an excuse I don't think I mean it's to be able to have a sheet of paper whatever it is that the city could provide because in most of the historic districts there are realtors like Laura who basically do most of the sales in those districts I mean the mcdonald district has several people who do the majority of the sales in the district but nonetheless and they should know and the other thing is if the historic districts maybe should have more active leadership within the historic district I don't know how you force that so that people can tell their neighbors I mean I think most of our neighbors know what they can and can't do and actually they're all there because the historic homes and they're in most cases willing to spend the money to do it the right way you do have those scoffers and you have those people who come in on the weekend and have some fly by night tree guy take down a heritage oak or you know which is so irritating because that's what makes the historic districts so many of our districts they yet beautiful are the big mature trees and there was one thing besides well and I think you have to have the information on the city website too but maybe it could just be handed to them at closing of every escrow they like I said they sign four different documents there's a seller property questionnaire the question is there's transfer disclosure statement where they discuss but there's nothing that's given to a new owner specifically explaining what those responsibilities are and that was something that you know for the last four years I've been like we should there should be something that is given to you know and like I said it could be something so simple as you know form that if you guys the city's told when somebody changes hands it may take 90 days or something like that for you to get the information but at some point send something out to these new owners explaining what the responsibilities are because then it makes it easier for when they come in and go oh we can turn around and say well wait a minute we don't have to negotiate your vinyl windows with you because you received this within 90 days of you buying your house back in 2012 so something or even like I said meeting with in the historic district that's announced to people in the historic district saying if you want to know what the responsibilities are we all buy in his the people that buy in historic districts do so because their values are going to go up higher than they are but along with that comes the responsibilities and a lot of people take the yes I'm going to make my money faster in a historic district but I'm going to make my money faster in a city that goes along with living within that district and honoring the heritage of the house that you're buying and doing right by it so the document would probably be processing review procedures for owners of historic properties that would be one document but just not a discussion that could so I agree with what you guys are saying and I started waiting into a lot of the information that's available online and I'll admit I found it quite confusing often contradictory not a lot of information as to really the details of what's allowed what's disallowed what type of process you have to go through the things you know I watched that previous meeting where you had that list of the minor and the major landmark alterations and what falls under each and those types of documents would be I think very helpful for people to understand what it is that they're required to do and then even like details that are things that I had questions about what is the distinction between a public right away is an alley included in a public right away doesn't seem like it should be but maybe it is but couldn't find the answer anywhere what is the distinction between contributing a non-contributing property and what about the unknowns and what does that mean to the property owner those things I just haven't been able to find anywhere if someone asked me that question but you know more than I would expect a property owner to try and do themselves so I completely agree having more information available readily available to people would be I think would cause a lot less heartache to members of the board and also the property owners and their neighbors well it sounds more like communication really explaining it to people if they don't know is there a way that the city can flag all the homes you know the homes that are in the historic district that when there's a change of ownership or a permit needs to come out that it's flagged historic district and that the rules and regulations are given out or they say you have to look on the website and read the rules and regulations because you are in a historic district so properties are flagged in our GIS system I'm gonna say it's a little bit confusing at one point in time we were able to find a report that was assigned to each property whether it was a contributor or not a contributor that's a much more difficult path now I don't know why the change I'm not a computer person I share the same skills as our chair and I I can certainly look into that I think that the purpose of this discussion is kind of to let's establish a task list and I can certainly report on what I know now and I can also get back to you on whatever I can find but at this point just to hear from the board what is it that you would like I'm hearing a lot of suggestions I am taking notes and we can conclude with a marching list or a continuation to have a further discussion I think it the tools I can certainly send out links I know Board Member Carney was able to find a lot of them online sometimes it can be a challenge navigating our website for me so I'm happy to send out some of those links so that others can review those sections we have we have the we have a variety of documents we have the general plan we have the design guidelines we have the zoning code we have the downtown station area specific plan and we have the document that is processing procedures for owners of historic properties and all of those have to work together the review criteria for projects that come before the board include references to most of those if not all of those so there is a requirement to make these consistency or to consider consistency with these documents they're not findings I want to point that out they're not required findings unlike a conditional use permit a variance, a hillside development permit and guidelines or design review I'm sorry a landmark alteration does not have set findings it has review criteria and that's because of the historic nature of the neighborhoods they were constructed already so we're trying to prevent change or pursue restoration encourage restoration so if we have if you folks have a discussion I'm happy to I'll give you the information I know and at the end of the day I'm happy to read back what I have in my list and what I'm happy to report back on and I will tell you that I think I am as passionate about this topic as you all are I'm also very sympathetic to some of the property owners so it is an interesting act so I'll let you conclude your discussion and give me some marching orders within reason of course and let's take it from there we can discuss next steps after you guys conclude your discussion and if you have any questions for me other than the GIS they are labeled I can bring a step by step process to the board I'm also I'm available and have walked several members of the public through that process thank you Ms. Murray and some of these items that we're seeing can maybe not simply but can be done in an informal process through city staff and other means but there may be other items that the board may want to take more formal action to make the changes in the form of actual recommendation to the city council through a resolution process most of what I heard was based on two things that the public not knowing what the responsibilities are and the lack or the difficulty in getting information so that you understand I'm going to take a third tack and the third tack is I'm the I'm the the guy who decides to just do it on a Sunday when nobody's looking and I wrote something up just for general discussion so I believe the issue of work being done without the benefit of permits within designated preservation districts it's a much bigger issue than just the need for more code enforcement to illustrate my belief I would like to read you an anonymous quote taken from an online service next door and this was referring to the city's neighborhood and this anonymous person said my suggestion to anyone installing a fence in a historic Burbank neighborhood is to keep the planning department and the cultural heritage board out of the equation at any and all costs putting in a simple fence might seem innocuous but you will be alarmed at the amount of hoops you have to jump in the fees you have to pay quote unquote right thing and get a permit don't just quietly build a tasteful fence and smile and nod it's easier to ask forgiveness than to get permission as the saying goes so looking into that from that quote I decided well let me really look into so what are the codes and the costs associated with building a fence in a historic neighborhood so looking at title 20 the zoning code installation of new landscaping features and a site features including fence walkways decks etc a fence higher than otherwise allowed by section 2030 dot 060 shall require a major landmark alteration permit approval in addition to a minor use permit there are some other variants so kind of reviewing then the fees schedule the minor landmark alteration permit if you're a homeowner and you're applying for a minor landmark alteration permit it's $409 if you're a non-homeowner it's $3,588 so they're given homeowners a significant discount major landmark alteration permit if you're a homeowner is $999 for a non-homeowner it's $9,054 is that the difference between a homeowner and a contractor that might be at the end we'll ask Susie so it's basically saying homeowner and non-homeowner so I'm I think the interpretation would be if you live in a preservation district and you're having modifications done to your home even if you're having a contractor do it it's to your home so that would be owner and the city does recognize that there is that it's a costly process and we subsidize the fees for homeowners which is why those are so there's so much difference if you look at say a hillside development so somebody up in the hills of Santa Rosa developing their fees there is no subsidized fee for a homeowner a minor is $6,500 and a major is $10,800 homeowners wanting to expand their homes into areas with more than 10% slope depending on that you know they would recognize those fees as well it's not just the preservation districts that have additional permitting requirements I mean you can look at it as I think those are some of the nicest places to live in the city the preservation district, the hillsides and it does cost to develop there so but we are not at full I don't know where we are on cost recovery but I know we're not at 100% it's an expensive process probably our own red tape but it's an expensive process with the number of people that get involved in the review let me go ahead and I'll finish this and then we'll catch your question so I'm glad we're spurring some questions on this so a minor use permit would be $409 and now this minor use permit would be for regardless whether in a historic neighborhood or not a minor variance is $2,244 so for better understanding and to put these codes and their associated costs into play I've created a hypothetical situation using my neighborhood here it is I am the owner of a home in a historic Burbank gardens neighborhood on the corner of Brown and Tupper street my lot is 50 by 100 50 feet wide on Tupper street and 100 feet deep on Brown street my house fronts Tupper street and the side of my house in my backyard face Brown street I have a 70 feet of old 6 foot fence that runs along the sidewalk on Brown street this fence provides security to my backyard and where my children play the fence needs to be replaced and I would like to replace it with the like this fence does not meet the requirements of section 20-30 .060 my potential permit requirements and costs would include a major landmark alteration permit $999 a minor use permit $409 and a public hearing before the cultural heritage board $533 for a total cost of $1941 additionally because it's a major landmark alteration and cultural heritage board it may take as much as four months to get through the permit process so here's a few questions I asked myself is it possible that the failure of the homeowners to get proper permitting resulting in code enforcement may be a result of failed policy do homeowners feel that they are penalized for owning a home in a historic district are the actions of this board are their actions this board can take to change the discussion on next door I use the fence scenario to bring awareness but there are many more examples as you're all aware of I would like to make a motion that we continue this item to our next scheduled meeting and at that meeting be prepared to discuss the following documents title 20 zoning 20-58 .060 landmark alteration permits design guidelines 4.7 historic properties and districts the Santa Rosa fee schedule associated with historic properties and the Santa Rosa landmark alteration checklist and I'll hold off on calling for the motion now we can have a little more discussion but I would like to make a formal motion at some point in the meeting so questions or additional discussion since this is not actually an item yet because we are having our third discussion are we allowed to vote on a motion on an item that isn't even real yet because we need the third this is actually the third step this is when you can talk about it you can ask staff for additional information I'm happy to bring it back at our next meeting which again I'll note is July 19th if you haven't responded to the quorum query please do and I'm happy to provide tools I can provide if you need access to tools like the zoning code section or the design guidelines section I can provide links to that we don't have to wait for the agenda to post those are out there already and that will give you plenty of time to review but yes please do have the discussion take advantage of this meeting we're ready for you can we have an ad hoc committee from this group or would that be a brown act problem I am not a brown act specialist I think if the ad hoc committee were three members I think you could do it I think the issue is a quorum but I can check on it and get back to you on that so I'll put that on my task list because it might be good to have a group of us come up with just do a little more research and come up with some solid ideas for the written material and bring them forward for discussion I don't know I think we'd have to outline the goals of the ad hoc committee or subcommittee I think we would have to outline that and then that committee I believe would report back to the board so at least personally I don't see this item happening like fast fast I'd rather take our time and and do a good job and try to cover all the needs of this particular subject which like I say I see it in probably some things just being handled through staff but I also see the potential and the need for a resolution for a recommendation to city council I'll kind of just tell you up front that I'd really like to see homeowner related fees go away so that when we go to the neighborhoods if we're promoting a landmark alteration we still keep all the elements of a landmark alteration but we make it easier for the homeowners and all of garden neighborhood Burbank gardens neighborhood some of these neighborhoods it's not McDonald and and they have budgets and when they see some of these costs associated they'll take their chances and they'll change their windows out they'll do and hope that they don't get caught and so that's kind of that's one and that's not the only element because the other elements that have been identified are also part of this but I think that Chair Muser if I could interject again something that the board could also consider is we have a concept review item on our fee schedule for people who live in preservation districts and unlike the design review board or the waterways advisory committee concept review it's free it's free for members and the preservation district to go forward and say what are your recommendations so in the case of the fence or in some smaller window replacements or smaller projects and we've actually come to the board when staff has brought those questions to the board when we had a question and one that comes to mind recently on gravel roof a tar and gravel roof tar and gravel not being the ideal solution giving the roof slope and we concluded that asphalt shingle was appropriate now staff knows how to proceed with those since then something else another project has come forward with the same situation or similar situation and we went ahead and approved that change at staff level so after getting direction from the board the code is not perfect we know that the code cannot anticipate every situation however we can make some changes in our processes where people could come to you get direction follow that direction come to staff if they follow that direction very similar to our reduced review authority process get their changes approved if staff confirms that the changes that were directed by the board and those changes were implemented and reflected in their plans we could approve it at staff level or something along those lines so think of that remember that you have that cultural heritage board concept review that is a free item on the fee schedule and we can get it to you I'm going to correct the four months review time for a major landmark alteration is very very optimistic any major project we typically say six months just to be sure we'd rather overachieve and underachieve so people can plan properly so yeah so we can get onto a concept meeting in three to five weeks because there is public noticing that has to go out we have to prepare it but there is no staff review the plans go we facilitate their plans to you we try to make sure they've got everything they need before we schedule that meeting but it's a conversation between the cultural heritage board and the applicant Mr. Perry just a clarification if what the applicant wants to do is listed as in the code as requiring a major landmark alteration they come for the board and a concept review and during the concept review discussion the board gives direction as to if you do this, this and this and this and this under our current regulations can we negate the major landmark alteration you have to take a little bit more looking at that and what we don't I'm talking about more smaller scope and I think that your fences and your window replacements facade changes opening up a window and making another door so you have another entry for homes that are maybe being modified into duplexes and things like that those types of things can come to the board remember our review is really the house so vinyl windows I know I see people come and they're very surprised they've ordered all these vinyl windows yes I've heard that multiple times myself and I can see where it's financially devastating to people we try to work with them as best we can but for a major landmark alteration I don't think we would get around the major landmark alteration I'm speaking more specifically about the minor projects landscaping I mean if you look at the things that require it what requires a minor landmark alteration permit it's landscaping it's a fence that's over three feet tall that requires that conditional use permit as well as a major landmark alteration in my opinion that's a relatively minor project with direction from the board we could easily approve something like that over the counter with direction from the board on their shingles the pitch of their roof we are not the experts on that those types of projects would most likely come back to the board I would love to see picket fence fairly standard picket fence that doesn't seem to be something that should have to reach out to 500 of your neighbors and ask what they think of your three foot picket fence which by all means fits that standard I would love to see us have to stop having to do the notification on something that is so important within the scope of both the neighborhood and all of that I would love to see some more city outreach we have done such a good job over the last few years with the corridor plan and some of these other things in trying to get community support these are neighborhoods that are very set and specifically reaching out to the city hall we are going to have three meetings and we are going to have somebody from our group planning code enforcement and just talk to people because people don't know about a fence they think I have to pay $400 for a permit for a picket fence and you are going to notify 500 people and you are going to have $400 fee to me I would love to see things like that become much more streamlined and that I do think that we with some of the more vigorous changes that they want to make to the fronts of their homes we are such a vital component and I would like to see that stay in place and I do think that we are important and we are an important part of that process and if we start taking away you know it's like everything else you have a responsibility if you want to live in this I grew up in Santa Cruz and I lived on the beach and so there was a responsibility that we had and there were chances that we took and there were different permits that we needed and inspections that we needed on an annual basis but the thing was we got to live on the ocean and so the same thing goes for when you choose to live in a historic district or if you choose to drive a fiat or something that's going to be to be fine tuned and taken care of there are choices that we make as a result of where we choose to live and whether we don't want you know if you don't want to have the responsibilities you can live in the JC and have a historic type home and not have the rigorous restrictions but if you live in these neighborhoods we have to have some there has to be responsibilities and there have to be rules and they have to be I'd like to clarify so major landmark alteration we can make too many changes on we can certainly brainstorm but the low-hagan fruit is with the minor changes and I think the most of violations happen there and the reason I say that and I say most because it's not all but because bigger changes require building permits and as soon as those homeowners come in for their building permits the landmark alteration permit they're told they learn it real quick and yeah they're not happy and I understand that if it comes as a surprise I think in the end they understand living in this jewel of an area that they understand why we're doing it but my suggestion of coming to the cultural heritage board was again for those lower-hagan fruit you say wood windows you know somebody just wants to replace sometimes people are replacing they misunderstand the code you know replace with original materials and they see that they have an old vinyl window now and they want to put a new vinyl window in and we tell them no you can't do that but we work with them and with windows staff has gotten more comfortable based on direction from the board same with roofs fences we have in okay so it's a process honestly there's I think quite a bit more variation but fences aren't attached to the home we can still make the findings if it's a staff level approval it's just modifying our process and so it's a thought it's a thought but I think if you guys keep what is it maybe if we continue for more discussion talk to some of your neighbors or if you're not in a preservation district talk to people that are in preservation there are several preservation districts who are not represented on this board and having discussions with those folks would be really helpful because every district has its topics as far as issues or characteristics character defining features let's say it's listed by the way in the zoning code it's in a separate section of the zoning code which planners look at when they're processing projects I will be happy to provide that section it's I know I'm such a nerd about this code it's in zoning code chapter 2028 and you'll find the historic preservation district in there we just all of the character defining elements for each district so the information is there talking to people I agree communication I can help where I can help but I think brainstorming coming up with those ideas as a group is where we're at and I don't I agree with chair Muser I think that this requires more discussion and we can continue it to the next meeting when you're done and kind of for the new board members you may already know this but a minor alteration permit or minor landmark alteration permit is approved by the zoning administrator and the zoning administrator typically is good enough to bring it to the cultural heritage board for comment so it gives us an opportunity to comment back to the zoning administrator so the zoning administrator can make in this case her decision because I believe Ms. Murray is the zoning administrator I am the zoning administrator and I'm quite confident making decisions on minor landmark alteration permits I yeah you've all taught me quite a bit so I remember my first landmark alteration before the board it was for a home under code enforcement and it was replacement of windows with all vinyl windows so I know what it's like to I learned real quick on vinyl windows but I will also say there are situations you know that those types of windows have been approved on the backside of homes and I correction staff doesn't always bring those minor landmark alteration permits to the board we did with the roof and that was part of a much larger scope of work for that home but when there's a question staff not the zoning administrator but the city planner that's reviewing the project has the ability to bring the project to the board as a concept item to get the direction as I said the zoning code is not perfect not by any stretch of the imagination so you know it's what document is how can you possibly predict everything so getting guidance from you is very very helpful for planners I can tell you that first hand I'm grateful for it so anyways and you're welcome the zoning administrator meetings are on the first and third you can always tune in additional discussion I guess I have a question which is we've spoken about fences and landscaping changes or whatever and if we wanted to move those to be more under the minor process what does that look like for us as far as getting there the board would ask direct me to get you some more information on that what would the process change I think ultimately it would end with a recommendation from the board to the council this is something that it's a process change that process is outlined in the zoning code that's an ordinance and the council has the authority to change that ordinance so it's a zoning text it's a process change and we can certainly work together on that but based on direction from the board if I remember correctly landscape and fences provided the fences are being done under existing fencing you know code requirements that's already a minor landmark alteration unless the fencing is part of an overall building construction like we saw recently in the mcdonald neighborhood where then it becomes wrapped into the major landmark so we already have as long as people are staying within and susie can correct me staying within the realm of existing code landscape fences is a minor yes so the front that front picket fence that comes up quite a bit at its tallest point so that includes your support posts which have oftentimes a decorative element that leaves your fence pretty low now I know a lot of people want to do fences they want to be able to keep their children or animal inside the yard small children not secure from of course secure from the outside but when you're sitting out front with your kids and your dog because that's where you're front you've got space that three foot fence doesn't really do you a lot of good it's pretty but so anything over three feet within anything within the front yard or corner side yard on the example the chair muser gave and it varies it's 10 feet some cases 15 feet some cases 20 feet so it depends on the property and the zoning district but if it's within that required front yard setback preservation district or otherwise if it's over three feet it requires that fence conditional use permit which was the $409 CUP conditional use permit the chair muser talked about in a preservation district it also requires you go over that three feet a major landmark alteration so that's that's what I'm referring to is the low hanging fruit there's other low hanging fruit but that really is low hanging fruit I believe and I'm trying I don't remember off the top of my head but I can look it up in the zoning code now where that landscaping is and I believe that's a minor landmark alteration as well and I'm almost there you go ahead and chat while I look this up if you like this should also address any building on an empty lot of which there are very few in the historic districts but they are there they are there and any any new construction requires a major landmark alteration and staff encourages strongly I don't think it's required but we encourage strongly that people come before you for a concept design review the exception to that is commercial development in the downtown area where it's a required joint meeting so you know Ms. Murray when I was on the board a couple decades ago they gave us a big binder and that binder had the contributors and the non-contributors of all the historic districts and I know that binder existed at one time in the city library which the city library is the city planning library which the city planning library is I think now a conference room and the books aren't there anymore I'm wondering how us board members as well as members of the public could look at a piece of property and know whether it's a contributor or a non-contributor and the reason why I ask is if I'm correct non-contributor buildings can do a lot more modifications to their building under a minor landmark alteration versus a versus a major but there's more flexibility for non-contributors than there are contributors I have a copy of that book with the contributors and non-contributors that I got decades ago also I've seen some binders that might resemble that but it wasn't one binder it was like binders of each preservation district it's a whole lot of paper we've tried to put information up on the website there's nothing confidential about that and that's one of the tasks that you can direct me to do or direct staff to do it won't necessarily be me excuse me but I think that that's a pretty reasonable request to get that information available to people up online I don't know what's entailed in it and I don't know that it's the same information you all have in your binders I would hope so as far as the requirements a new house built will not be a contributor you still get to review that project if we've had several homes that were non-contributors the changes that they're proposing they may get away with vinyl windows but they'll be very nice vinyl windows they may but those still come to the board so if it's a non-contributor and I'll have to look at that a little bit closer because I don't know if it's modifications to the front facade but I'm sure I am sure that I've been before the board with non-contributors that had pretty significant facelifts going so on the properties so a home could technically be a non-contributor as of like 1974 and then move on to 2023 and be a contributor no the zoning code that chapter 2028 outlines the period of significance for each preservation district there's a there's a California environmental quality issue environmental quality act issue about preservation of historic historic buildings but that is not that's not something that the zoning code I mean it's a finding we have to make but it's not something that the zoning code the zoning code specifies the period of significance so for example the 1870's through the 1940's if the home was built in the 1950's it's not going to be a contributor even though it is a beautiful architectural example of 1950's architecture it is not a contributor to the district it is not within that period of significance well what about a house in like say the bourbon gardens it was built in 1915 but through the years was screwed up to have T111 siding and it's still considered a contributor but it's been drastically changed and we've got people that are asking I've had the question asked of me what do I do with this you know credit siding on my house so I can become more you know historically relevant or can I move my house from being a non contributor to a contributor it still fits the timeline it's just that through the years before we became a historic district a lot of bad stuff happened and the house is just not you know can it become or does it come not become a contributor you know somebody putting T111 and taking off of the original siding one of the required review criteria I keep saying required findings the review criteria is the secretary of the interiors standards there are four and it's reconstruction there's four we look at the most applicable okay a goal for the preservation districts isn't just to make their houses look prettier it's actually restoration if somebody comes in with a building permit to redo the siding in a preservation district it's if it's a couple small pieces we can they've got a rotten board or whatever we can do some of that over the counter if they're doing a full side to the appropriate review authority if it's on the front of the house or readily visible from the street when I say readily visible I don't mean you can see it from the street I mean when you're walking down the sidewalk it's right on that corner and it's right there without you craning your head to see what's going on those come to the board if they're changing siding of course we want them to restore it a lot of times we'll come to the board and say what level of review do you want from a consultant that consultant can be a qualified architect it can be a historian but we look to you for that guidance you've heard us come and say what do you need and that's remember that those reports are very expensive we have the expertise sitting behind and if you know what the siding looks like do we really need to make the applicant get a historic architect to weigh in no we can give pretty clear or you can give very clear instruction I'll tell you any decision I make at director level staff level or as the zoning administrator is appealable and that goes for the cultural heritage board as well there's a process if somebody doesn't agree with you but coming to you for direction is usually the direction of staff because we know that we are not the pros unless it's on the back of the house I believe that I saw somewhere I don't know if I was following a link from the cultural heritage or the city website but it directed me to somewhere in the GIS that had the non-contributing map and there was also another section of unknown which I guess nobody knows anyway I just want to point that out, thank you there's tremendous amount of information on the city website it's just sometimes navigating especially the GIS map you know GIS you know how to go through the layers and stuff it's a little easier I'm wondering if we want to kind of I've taken all this in and thoughts I've got a proposal to potentially wrap this up which includes kind of amending my motion but I'm thinking if I make a motion just to continue this discussion in the meeting send us board members home with the knowledge of this discussion and to come to the next discussion with some specific ideas and changes that you think that we could make and then Ms. Murray if you could see if we could do what did you call the committee an ad hoc see if we could do an ad hoc committee and if we can do an ad hoc committee next board meeting form the ad hoc committee and arm them with the information from the board members and see what the ad hoc committee can come back to the board with so how does that sound to everybody and Ms. Murray I was just going to say that I understand that there's a concern about the communication notifications information that's distributed to residents in preservation districts but I would also encourage very much looking at the processes zoning text change is a big deal look at what's in there under in that section I will send out whatever tools you need links I'm happy to do that but let's look at this it's not something that we can do once and then repeat again the following year as chair muser said it's a long process it's not going to happen in the next few months so we want to be thorough and thoughtful about it and I am available if anybody wants to just call and chat I'm happy to do that y'all have my home phone number and you all know that I answer my phone and I return my calls so if I'm unable to answer so I'm happy to help anyway I can I will provide tools be creative it's not just about mailing out information that's very important I agree but I think that there may be ways that we can just reduce those barriers especially again for those smaller projects and certain types of window don't require I think they're called insert windows I don't know but they don't require a building permit so somebody doing that type of work at their home a fence a fence that's not seven feet tall doesn't require a building permit so somebody very innocently calls the city and says I'm putting up a five foot fence does that require a building permit the answer is no it doesn't require if it's not somebody if they call the building division it's unlikely they're going to say it might require a planning permit you know we try but we don't we don't always succeed anticipating the next question so anyways so just keep that in mind in the processes look at our processes as well as well as our noticing and information distribution and I will I'll get with Miss Murray and get her to you kind of a a recommended review list of documents that like the fee schedule and by the way I don't look at how many pages the fee schedule was I just hit print 54 pages later I've got a full copy of the city of Santa Rosa fee schedule if anybody else does that just print the first eight pages that's those planning fees that's all the rest of it we're building oh my gosh there's a lot in there anyway so so with that and so I'll make a motion and then if I get a second then there's one more opportunity for discussion and if not then no more discussion then we vote so that's kind of the process so I'd like to make a motion that chair sorry chair muser sorry to interrupt I know we don't have people in attendance but just for to for consistency can you please open and close the public comment period thank you I almost forgot I did forget so I'd like to open public comment on this item there are currently no members of the public in attendance in person nor on sam thank you they will close public comment okay so I'll make a motion that we continue to the next meeting the cultural heritage board brainstorming ideas to address work being done within preservation districts without the benefit of permits I'll second that can you speak into the microphone please I will second that thank you okay so we received a motion discussion any further discussion one quick thing I would love to get a copy of the different things that you brought up with regard to different code things yes there's a title 20 zoning and the design I would love to if we could have something like that sent to us so that we can review it before we meet for the next meeting I have a list to send you links for the zoning code the sections that are applicable general plan the sections that are applicable design guidelines processing procedures for owners of properties within preservation districts downtown station area specific plan and any other links that I find that would be helpful including the general plan and the zoning code and as Mary mentioned to that it might be easier to raise the dead to change the items and the general planner and the zoning code very very challenging but some of the other items fee schedule and some of the other language especially if you see inconsistencies there's a document gets updated and then the other document doesn't get updated so we're looking for those kind of things as well any other discussion seeing none Miss Kramer if we could call for a vote Board Member Carney Aye Board Member Fennell Aye Board Member Klein Aye Vice Chair Garrett Aye Chair Muser Aye Thank you I have a great discussion as well as even a kind of a training session I think for all of us and I look forward to continuing it I think it's really important I appreciate everybody's participation and unless I have one clarification question for our secretaries over here do we need to do a summary of the vote Yes we should Okay Chair Muser if you could just summarize motion by seconded by and the vote that would be great Okay so the motion was made by Ryan Muser and it was seconded by Vice Chair Garrett and members Carney Board Member Fennell and Board Member Klein all voted aye and the vote asked unanimously A 5-0 vote with Board Member Warren Absent Done I've never done that before I'm sorry I could have done it I didn't realize that I thought you had and if you would move to the last item on the agenda so we can all go home Last time the agenda is adjourned so that's what we're going to do Chair thank you everybody